Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Limbic_Region salutations audreyt - still hospitalized?
00:01 audreyt yeah.
00:01 audreyt going to get today's test results in a couple hours
00:02 audreyt to see if I can be discharged. about 50% chance I think
00:03 * Limbic_Region keeps you in his prayers
00:03 audreyt thank-you :)
00:04 cognominal joined perl6
00:04 Limbic_Region I also sent you a private /msg too
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00:10 [M]erk TimToady, I think that S05 assumes that the reader is already familiar with perl5 regex. This sort of defeats the purpose of having a specification.
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00:18 moritz one could argue that pcre are a quasi standard ;)
00:18 moritz but I agree that it's not optimal
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00:59 audreyt so. not quite ready to be discharged
00:59 audreyt probably going to be discharged in two days
00:59 audreyt I'm getting better but they're not confident enough to let me roam the streets...
00:59 * audreyt happily goes back to sleep &
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05:17 gaal p6 Range also has two kinds of endpoints, doesn't it. Inclusive or exclusive...
05:18 tene Yes.
05:18 tene ?eval 1..6
05:18 tene ?eval 1..^6
05:18 evalbot_r15305 is now known as evalbot_r15306
05:18 evalbot_r15306 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
05:18 evalbot_r15306 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
05:19 tene ?eval 5.5 ~~ 1..^6
05:19 evalbot_r15306 Bool::False
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05:37 gaal so it's represented by more than "data Ord a => Range a = MkRange a a"
05:38 audreyt moose
05:38 audreyt we don't have Range yet
05:38 gaal more like MkRange { r_start :: a, r_end :: a, r_startInc :: Bool, r_endInc :: Bool }
05:38 gaal I know :)
05:38 gaal moose :)
05:39 audreyt also either end can be Inf
05:39 audreyt as in *
05:39 gaal no matter the type of the other end?
05:39 audreyt aye
05:39 audreyt when both end is *, it always matches
05:39 audreyt I guess that's a DeRange
05:39 tene ?eval 5.5 ~~ 1..*
05:40 audreyt that's a ulimit test...
05:40 evalbot_r15306 (no output)
05:40 audreyt good. ulimit works
05:40 tene Will it always be?
05:40 gaal hehe
05:40 audreyt nope.
05:40 tene Just checking.
05:40 audreyt I should blog, maybe
05:40 gaal how deranged.
05:40 audreyt or I should attack MO
05:40 gaal i should go to work :(
05:41 audreyt oi :/
05:41 tene the ulimit settings in evalbot don't protect against "fork while fork", though.
05:41 audreyt I should have no work to do for a month :)))
05:41 gaal moose!
05:41 audreyt tene: fork happily is Unsafe
05:41 gaal tene: but fork's unsafe
05:41 gaal hee, audreyt's still the fastest moose in the moose
05:41 tene ?eval fork
05:41 evalbot_r15306 0␤32358
05:41 gaal uh-oh
05:41 tene evalbot doesn't complain about forking.
05:42 audreyt uh oh.
05:42 gaal fixed.
05:42 gaal should async also be unsafe?
05:42 audreyt no.
05:42 audreyt async is in-process microthread
05:42 gaal yy
05:43 gaal committed.
05:43 audreyt gaal++
05:43 svnbot6 r15307 | gaal++ | * mark fork as unsafe. tene++ for noticing.
05:43 gaal tene++
05:43 gaal work&
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06:05 brad__ hi
06:06 audreyt brad__: greetings!
06:07 brad__ audrey, i have always wanted to meet you
06:07 brad__ i hope you are feeling better
06:07 brad__ not often i get to meet a luminary
06:07 brad__ i am a perl6 lurker and pugs player-wither
06:08 brad__ sometimes commenting on your blog as "grumpy"
06:08 audreyt well, this particular one is more flickry than luminary at the moment
06:08 audreyt oh hi!
06:08 brad__ i was wondering what happened to you
06:08 brad__ then again after your rash of insane output, i was assuming burnout
06:09 brad__ which is fair
06:09 audreyt I thought so too
06:09 audreyt but burnout usually recover within a few weeks
06:09 brad__ hopefully pugs will be fun again soon
06:09 brad__ no more politicking
06:09 audreyt and this time my nonmotivation and fatigue gradually worsened
06:10 audreyt so I'm glad it has a much simpler explanation
06:10 audreyt and I'm on my way to recovery
06:10 brad__ awesome, we need you if only for your kick-ass presentations
06:10 brad__ but your code is nice too!
06:10 audreyt well, it's a pity that the onset happened on the night before my google.tw talk :/
06:10 audreyt but we'll schedule another talk next month probably :)
06:11 brad__ cool
06:11 brad__ how far out of sync do you think pugs has become with the state-of-the synopses?
06:11 audreyt I wondered if grumpY! works at yahoo (hence the Y!) for quite a while
06:11 brad__ yes i am old-time yahoo.
06:12 brad__ i wrote a bunch of the early parts of the site
06:12 audreyt aha. still @yahoo?
06:12 brad__ 11 years+ now
06:12 brad__ yes still there
06:12 audreyt cool!
06:12 brad__ larry built my house
06:12 audreyt I heard that the early parts were all perl
06:12 brad__ yes!
06:12 brad__ and i still root for perl there
06:12 audreyt :D
06:12 audreyt so, re out of sync. ~3months
06:12 brad__ when we were trying to find a replacement for our internal server-side lang, i chaired to mod_perl side
06:13 brad__ i lost to php, its been downhill ever since
06:13 audreyt well I was told that parts of Yahoo is still in mod_perl...
06:13 audreyt but php is "canonical"
06:13 brad__ yes and yes, they still provide some support to mod_perl, but they'll likely kill that over time
06:13 brad__ too bad too
06:13 brad__ but its water under the bridge
06:14 brad__ they intentionally wanted an idiot language
06:14 brad__ and they got one in php
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06:14 audreyt re politicking, yeah it took most of the fun away from me when I was in .br
06:14 audreyt renewed my resolve to ignore all politics this time around
06:14 brad__ and the reddit postings must not help
06:14 brad__ i am sure you have seen
06:14 tene explain "intentionally wanted an idiot language"?
06:15 audreyt no, I had not
06:15 brad__ http://programming.reddit.com/info/157m0/comments
06:15 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 and Parrot: Things I Probably Shouldn't Say But No One Else Seems To  ...
06:15 audreyt nor do I actually want to
06:15 brad__ tene - a motivation to get a tool that had some power but not as complex as perl
06:15 brad__ which i will rewrite as wanting an idiot language
06:15 brad__ my own editorial there
06:16 brad__ at least with php4 i can say you can feel your iq drop as you use it
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06:17 brad__ in any case audrey, i credit you with leading me to haskell
06:17 brad__ if perl6 never pans out i will get something out of this
06:17 brad__ i am in no danger of being in your realm of expertise of course
06:18 brad__ room has gone silent...was it my cologne?
06:18 tene The room is often silent.
06:18 audreyt well, hopefully not anymore :)
06:18 audreyt brad__: do you prefer the nick "brad" or "bjc"?
06:18 audreyt (when committing to pugs)
06:19 brad__ audrey - let me commit to this. i will read the pugs code and try to understand it, then i will humbly take a commit bit for something harmless
06:20 brad__ it is important for you to understand how far you are ahead of the rest of us
06:20 audreyt an invitation is on its way to your inbox regardless... :)
06:20 brad__ which one?! you can send to [email@hidden.address]
06:20 brad__ oh boy, i put an email address in a irc log
06:20 brad__ game over for me
06:21 audreyt done
06:21 brad__ i will promise you that i will crack open the pugs code again
06:21 audreyt woot!
06:21 brad__ my kids grant me three hours a night for me stuff
06:21 audreyt are you not also bjc @ yahoo?
06:22 brad__ i gave up that email because of too much spam, i also gave up [email@hidden.address] years agao too (i had it before yahoo mail existed, when yahoo used @yahoo.com)
06:22 audreyt (I sent an invitation there, too, with nick "bjc". the b7j0c one I sent an invitation too with nick "brad".)
06:22 audreyt gotcha.
06:22 brad__ thanks audrey! i will not waste the opportunity
06:23 audreyt wow, such politeness :)
06:23 brad__ well i legitimately think you are a genius. so i am giving deference
06:24 audreyt re the reddit post. after 3mo of rest I can honestly say I have no hard feeling wrt chromatic anymore... he sometimes unintentionally exaggerates things for effect (such as the parrot's release frequency), but overall he is cool.
06:25 brad__ i sensed that, i think some people just like a little drama
06:25 audreyt aye. so it's all fine now
06:26 audreyt please test that svn works by adding yourself to AUTHORS and commit -- our new invite.pugscode.org system havn't seen much use, unlike the old one
06:26 audreyt and welcome aboard :)
06:26 brad__ thanks!
06:26 brad__ hey, i thought you would be a shoe-in to use darcs
06:27 audreyt there is also darcs.pugscode.org.
06:27 brad__ i tried it out of haskell-snobbery and am sold on it
06:27 audreyt read-only at the moment, though
06:27 audreyt but people do use it all the time to track our commits
06:27 brad__ i am interested in what os you use, out of curiosity
06:27 audreyt (as seen in http logs)
06:27 audreyt freebsd for a long, long time.
06:27 audreyt finally decided I can't hack all layers of computing
06:27 audreyt so I'm on darwin/osx now
06:28 brad__ hmm, i am on freebsd6.2 now
06:28 audreyt which is like freebsd except it doesn't prompt me to learn obscure computing knowledge that often
06:28 offby1 yeah, just getting my wireless card working on FreeBSD 6.2 was a challenge
06:28 brad__ really? i have an ANCIENT laptop and wpa_supplicant did the trick!
06:29 brad__ with a netgear card
06:29 audreyt and I had to hack snd_ich to unbreak the sound card that's broken during  a _point release_
06:29 audreyt etc, etc. :)
06:29 brad__ hmmm, yeah multimedia has never been a bsd strong suit
06:29 brad__ but then again my UI of choice is gnu screen
06:29 brad__ so my needs are modest
06:29 audreyt ditto.
06:29 offby1 brad__: I have no idea what wpa_supplicant is.
06:30 brad__ screen over dwm!
06:30 audreyt oh and darwin runs OmniGraffle :)
06:30 offby1 I naïvely expected it to just work when I plugged it in.  Silly me
06:30 brad__ offby1 - in debian and freebsd you have to do some twiddling for wireless. ubuntu is what you want if you want wireless out of the box
06:30 brad__ there are good reasons for this
06:30 brad__ ubuntu will use binary blobs
06:31 brad__ debian won't
06:31 brad__ freebsd will
06:31 brad__ but they don't care that much about laptops (yet)
06:31 tene And yet they will all run Perl6!
06:31 brad__ that they will
06:31 * audreyt wonders about writing device drivers with perl6
06:32 brad__ in any case, my UI is designed to be a console done with xft fonts. that is all i want
06:32 brad__ i REALLY use elinks as my browser
06:32 audreyt elinks > w3m because... ?
06:32 audreyt (w3m is my browser of choice.)
06:32 offby1 brad__: I had been using ubuntu for just that reason.  Foolishly upgraded to feisty, and ... wireless stopped working :-(
06:32 brad__ elinks is just a weee bit easier to customize
06:32 brad__ and also, it had lua scripting
06:32 audreyt ah. Lua.
06:33 audreyt very important that.
06:33 brad__ but that was before i discovered PRIVOXY
06:33 brad__ now i do not need lua scripting
06:33 brad__ PRIVOXY FTW
06:33 brad__ pcre-enabled net proxy!
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06:34 brad__ also elinks has numbered links
06:34 brad__ numbered links are important in a text browser
06:34 brad__ crucial imo
06:35 brad__ in any case i still beat the drum of having parrot be the vm of firefox
06:35 brad__ because i hate js
06:36 brad__ but it will never happen
06:36 brad__ tamarin FTW :(
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06:38 brad__ okay audrey - created a passcode at pugscode. what now?
06:38 tene brad__: add yourself to AUTHORS and commit
06:38 audreyt re tamarin FTW. yes definitely.
06:39 audreyt also JS2/ECMA4 is really, really not bad.
06:39 audreyt I can't bring myself to hate it at all :)
06:40 brad__ i know the next js is not bad, but i hate being denied choice
06:40 brad__ why must there be only one client language?
06:40 audreyt well as long as we target tarmarin
06:40 audreyt it's just another vm
06:40 brad__ yes but is js a viable compile target?
06:40 audreyt oh definitely.
06:40 brad__ i wonder
06:40 brad__ we'll see
06:41 audreyt it may be that tamarin bytecode is easiest to target
06:41 audreyt but in any case we need to get 6.28.0 out of the door... an object model bridge can only exist when _both_ sides exist
06:41 brad__ hopefully, actually the world does not give a poop what i think, the web platform is settled
06:41 audreyt which reminds me. I should get hacking :)
06:42 audreyt (bbiab)
06:42 gaal audreyt: how much newVal changes should go into 6.28.0?
06:42 audreyt gaal: all of it
06:42 brad__ okay with that i will let you sign off, i got my fandom in for the night, i met audrey. audrey i will check out the pugs tree and get reading
06:42 gaal need to revisit much of Parser.*
06:42 audreyt gaal: though I'm still not sure about the VPure/VMut/VExt variance typing
06:42 audreyt I intend to get
06:42 gaal oh?
06:42 audreyt vv('some string').reverse
06:42 audreyt working using MO today
06:43 audreyt yeah. it's better to carry the P/STM/IO type annotation directly within the Val type
06:43 audreyt then we only have the Val type.
06:43 audreyt (for now.)
06:43 audreyt since we're optimizing for consistency not for speed
06:43 brad__ bye everyone, thanks for putting up with me
06:43 audreyt the intrinsics and undefs can just be normal Val for now
06:43 audreyt brad__: see you soon!
06:44 brad__ good night!
06:44 gaal bye
06:44 gaal I don't see quite how it goes
06:44 audreyt I'll code instead :)
06:44 audreyt easier that way :)
06:44 gaal haskell+++
06:44 gaal hehe, I didn't even mean to put an extra + there
06:45 gaal "haskell" ++ repeat '+' or something
06:46 tene Or perhaps you were endorsing something called haskell+
06:48 gaal +++. Is that preendorsing or postendorsing?
06:49 gaal ++++
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08:33 svnbot6 r15308 | gaal++ | * improve decode-utf-chunks.t to make the TAP telling.
08:35 gaal could anyone run a 15308 pugs against t/xx-uncategorized/decode-utf-chunks.t and see if they get those weird backslashes too?
08:35 gaal "ok 2 - chunk \#0"
08:36 audreyt it's not weird
08:36 audreyt TAP protocol mandates it
08:36 audreyt otherwise it's comment like
08:36 gaal ahhhh
08:36 audreyt #SKIP
08:36 gaal right, right
08:36 audreyt so just drop the # from the tests
08:36 gaal haha, i was thinking it's a pugsbug
08:36 gaal yeah
08:36 gaal fixed.
08:36 audreyt k
08:37 svnbot6 r15309 | gaal++ | * declutter TAP output by dropping the "#"
08:38 gaal this runs very slow on a 'make fast' pugs
08:38 gaal making a non-fast pugs...
08:39 * gaal considers renaming 'make fast' to 'make soon'
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08:49 audreyt gaal: do it :)
08:53 gaal done. we should also have "cheap" and "good" targets maybe.
08:54 svnbot6 r15310 | gaal++ | * Makefile.PL ~~ s/fast/soon/, as this target builds a slow pugs.
08:54 Juerd make tuits
08:55 gaal make love
08:56 audreyt not war?
08:56 audreyt "make test, not war"
08:56 audreyt so vv('foo') is close to working
08:56 jisom don't you want a battle hardened pugs?
08:57 audreyt but then I discovered my attention span, though much improved, is still not normal
08:57 * audreyt faints into unconsciousness for a bit &
08:57 gaal make sweet-dreams
08:58 gaal actually "make fast" builds a shipworthy pugs
08:58 gaal that doesn't shift as the ship heels etc.
09:14 gaal I don't have any good comparison points, but isn't >20sec slow for t/xx-uncategorized/decode-utf
09:14 gaal -chunks.t ?
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10:56 wolverian Juerd, I see feather has bitlbee installed. how does one use it? :)
10:56 wolverian Juerd, it's not in inetd.conf afaics..
10:57 Juerd Preferrably not at all, if I were you. It's a huge privacy hazard.
10:57 Juerd But see man bitlbee
10:57 wolverian oh. it is?
10:57 Juerd Run it with -D
10:57 wolverian is it because of bitlbee itself, or the method it is used on feather? I was just setting up it on my own server, too.
10:57 Juerd Sure - people on instant messaging will assume you're in for intimate personal talk, while feather is hardly secure.
10:58 wolverian ah. true enough.
11:02 wolverian hrm, well. irssi does something it doesn't like and the connection fails, anyway.
11:03 wolverian and on my server, from inetd, it just refuses the connection. sigh :)
11:03 wolverian I love daemons without logging..
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12:00 svnbot6 r15311 | fglock++ | kp6 - added Code.pm
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12:52 avar What are some of the posix regexp implementations? glibc, ..?
12:52 * avar ot:)
12:54 avar -/w 5
12:54 avar eek
12:54 moritz POSIX defines regexes?
12:55 avar yep
12:55 moritz in this channel I learn more than in 13 years school ;)
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13:20 moritz TimToady: will there be a "Programming Perl 6" book?
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13:23 * pdcawley would be surprised if there weren't.
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14:22 xdg moritz: I think TimToady needs to finish the language spec first.  :-)  
14:22 xdg Though, really, I assume a compilation of all the synopses, etc. will be the base of any such book.
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17:28 * Khisanth pokes Someone at 85.197.228.236
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17:44 svnbot6 r15312 | gaal++ | * very broken UTF-8 caused a crash. added a test and fixed the crash.
17:44 svnbot6 r15312 | gaal++ |   (Note: please do not add the usual svn props to pathological-8bit.dat)
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18:35 cj moritz: the prototype for the Programming Perl 6 book is the Perl6 Apocalypses: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/apocalypse.html
18:35 lambdabot Title: Perl6 Apocalypses - perl6
18:35 cj right, that.
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18:43 jabbot ingy: audreyt was seen 9 hours 46 minutes 41 seconds ago
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20:55 ingy qmole: I think you want #python ;)
20:56 ingy (if you insist on discussing the Holy Hand Grenade)
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20:58 ingy hi buetow
20:58 buetow hi
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23:29 putter TimToady: is there a spec way to select p6 dialect within a p5 re?  perhaps (?p6) (?p6:...) ?  Don't ever need (?-p6) ;)
23:30 putter (?5) (?5:...)
23:30 putter err, no.  (?6) (?6:...)
23:31 moritz putter: uhm, from p5 I don't know such a construct, so why should it exist in p5-regexes in p6?
23:31 moritz putter: I thought they were mainly for backwards compatibility and convenience...
23:32 moritz putter: and if you need more advanced features you can fall back to p6 rules
23:32 putter symmetry?  it's a backward compatible mod of p5 re syntax.
23:33 putter if you have flavor x and y, and you can embed x in y, it's just asking for headaches to be unable to embed y in x.
23:37 putter re "mod of p5", no pun intended.  really.
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23:37 moritz ;)
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23:38 moritz well, I'd say that both points are valid and that it's just a matter of taste/convenience which one to choose
23:39 moritz (of course this beeing perl I know what the answer will be ;))
23:39 putter lol
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23:43 moritz putter: and beeing (becoming...) a physicist I appreciate symmetries as well ;)
23:45 putter Basically why I'm here.  Perl's eschewing of the otherwise pervasive "no, you may NOT have that power, because it {can't be compiled efficiently, can't be type checked, is ugly, is likely to be abused, confuses newbies, etc, etc, etc}".
23:48 putter Hmm.  General eschewing.  I still think not being able to define methods on ARRAY,HASH,etc, was... well, closed off one rich direction for language evolution.
23:48 Aankhen`` joined perl6
23:48 tene putter: explain more?
23:49 moritz putter: can you at least inherit from {ARRAY,HASH,etc}?
23:50 putter there were p5 patches to permit   {package HASH;sub foo{} }  {}->foo;  it was (perhaps correctly) thought this would cost more in bugs and confusion than it was worth.
23:52 wolverian I think it's a pretty universal sentiment that tie() was not the right solution either :)
23:52 moritz but still a clean interface allowing just that would be cool ;)
23:52 putter basically it might have permitted rubyesque "everything is an object" style.
23:52 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
23:54 putter moritz: re "inherit from ARRAY, HASH", I don't believe so.  I believe you have to use tiearray,etc, and annoying tie games.
23:54 TimToady_ joined perl6
23:55 putter :)
23:59 moritz well, time for bed ;)
23:59 TimToady_ putter: I certainly wouldn't stop anyone from adding a (?p6:...) to p5...  :)

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