Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady_ does it look like -STD is on the path toward sanity to you?
00:01 TimToady_ is now known as TimToady
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00:17 putter moritz: good night *wave*
00:17 putter TimToady_: re "stop", :)
00:18 putter re "sanity", let's see...
00:21 putter yes
00:21 putter :)
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00:23 putter I haven't looked closely at most of it.  And the real way to detect problems will be to try and run it.  But
00:24 putter basically what it provides is a reference, a spec, which it achieves regardless of any bugs present.
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00:26 putter hmm.  with delighted emphasis "a reference! :)".
00:29 putter feel free to use a simple text macro for the token category decls.  slightly more work for a preprocessor vs clarity.
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00:30 TimToady yah
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00:54 putter sigh.  more name pain.  since what was called a "rule" is now called a "named(?) regex", "subrule" needs to be renamed.  "subregex"?
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00:58 putter Is there some way to do relative addressiing within the numbered capture hierarchy?  starting with "give me the leaf match which encloses the current part of the regex".  I don't immediately see that.  Looks like one has to nonlocally (within a regex) navigate from the top $/ down.
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01:04 audreyt putter: $/[-1] ?
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01:13 putter I'm not yet sure what the p6 senario is, but at least in p5, the match array is prepopulated with failed matches.  At least that's my fuzzy recollection.
01:14 putter ((((( (.) { $foo[0] } )))))    with some foo would avoid having to count parens and say $/[0][0][0][0][0][0].
01:18 putter "bxa" =~ /^(?(1)a|b)(x)(?(1)a|b)$/  works.  so, at least nominally, \1 exists before it is reached, even during execution.
01:20 putter obviously one would usually use names.  and one could alias the needed match.  (((( $foo := ( (.) { $foo[0] } )))))   or something like that.
01:20 putter i suppose one might have a $/.current  or somesuch
01:21 TimToady sorry, network problems, have to reboot &
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01:28 TimToady we still call them subrules
01:28 TimToady it's an inconsistency we can live with
01:28 weinig is now known as weinig|away
01:28 putter (none of my questions were pressing.  just things which popped up as I went coding by)
01:29 TimToady and yes, $/[-1] or $-1 is supposed to be the previous ()
01:29 audreyt TimToady: the Syn does not mention $-N anymore
01:29 TimToady also you can $0 := ... to start the numbering over
01:29 TimToady hmm.
01:30 audreyt neither does STD
01:30 putter re inconsistency, *shudder*.  just as p[45] set the standard for regexps, p6 will like set a new standard.  future generations will hate us less if we put together a sane nomenclature.
01:30 putter s/like/likely
01:30 audreyt neither does pugs :) which makes it noncanonical atm...
01:30 TimToady well, ideas welcome
01:31 TimToady also wondering how far context variables go in emulating attribute grammar attributes
01:32 avar audreyt: I'll cpan re::engine::POSIX tomorrow:)
01:32 TimToady also thinking about some kind of :inline( my $x is context )
01:32 audreyt avar: moose!
01:32 avar momo:)
01:33 audreyt my doctor just went in to tell me I'll be discharged tomorrow
01:33 avar You have internet at the hospital?
01:33 audreyt ah, this is .tw
01:33 avar (.tw)++
01:34 audreyt in taipei we have internet on public transportation (and taxis) :)
01:34 putter lol
01:34 avar oh man
01:34 avar crazy asian people, me like! (long time *snicker*)
01:34 audreyt for <usd$100/year
01:35 TimToady I used to have that back when my Ricochet modem worked... :(
01:35 audreyt so yeah, for all my wandering around the globe, taipei is still quite compelling a base station for me :)
01:35 TimToady now I have it again, since Google has re-wire(less)ed Mountain View
01:35 putter please do some internet equivalent of launching a satellite.  the US really needs a "we are falling terribly behind!" wireless panic.
01:36 audreyt ooh nice. (even more excited at visiting mountain view)
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01:37 putter s/a satellite/the first satellite/
01:37 audreyt avar: so ::POSIX goes thru ::Plugin? or is it native? and are you also planning to do the plan9-engine thing?
01:37 avar native, I'm just using STD posix, dmq thought plan9 would be neat, haven't looked at it:)
01:37 avar but I'm getting pretty good at this:)
01:38 audreyt :D
01:38 audreyt avar++
01:39 avar I'm not shipping a posix regex libary though and just using whatever the system has (no workie on windows)
01:39 audreyt sure. it's proof-of-concept anyway
01:39 avar mm
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01:40 putter avar: has anyone done a simple passthru, ie, do a plugin which uses the usual p5 engine... and then run all the p5 tests related to regexps?  like substr.t, split.t, etc?
01:40 avar good resource on plan9 regexps?
01:40 avar putter: nope
01:40 putter :/
01:41 avar well, once you override the engine it'll work everywhere (probably not what you meant) but then again I'm not sure what you mean:)
01:41 avar re::engine::Perl; which did what you have by default would be a 20 line plugin with an arary of the function pointers it's using anyway
01:42 avar *array
01:42 audreyt avar: consider a ::Plugin::Perl5 that goes to userland and back
01:42 audreyt I believe that's what putter has in mind
01:42 avar ah, that's another issue though
01:42 audreyt but it ensures completeness around edge cases
01:42 avar mm, indeed
01:42 audreyt which is what we'll need for full fledged ::PCR
01:42 avar ::Plugin is far from complete as you may have noticed
01:43 avar but the framework around it is pretty good IMO, which is why I released it in its infant state:)
01:43 putter the biggest obstacle with the old plugin stuff was that the rest of p5 core, the substr node code in particular, was... taking liberties.  do anything interesting (like accessing a variable) in a plugin, and you got later segfaults.
01:43 avar yeah, there are a lot of liberties:)
01:43 putter call.  bbiab
01:47 avar audreyt: well, depending on what the edge cases are...
01:48 avar tracking down any stuff that presumes perl5-engine semantics on $your_engine is the most important stuff:)
01:48 audreyt *nod*
01:49 audreyt still a userland roundtrip test should be a good test to ::Plugin itself in t/
01:49 avar mm
01:52 avar aren't plan9 regexes notable because of the implementation, not because of external interface/syntax?
01:53 * avar tries to find some more on them
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01:58 audreyt avar: are you not about to sleep? :)
01:58 avar mm, sleep:)
02:02 * audreyt naps a bit :) &
02:06 putter back
02:07 putter yes, what audreyt said.
02:08 putter and turning up core problems will give p5p something to chew on, since apparently there is interest
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02:32 devbot6 dev: WikiStart edited by malon <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart>
02:42 putter wikibot++
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03:45 devbot6 dev: WikiStart edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart>
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04:25 putter TimToady: in S05, shouldn't "token ident" and regex ident be \w* rather than \w+ ?
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04:45 PerlJam putter: perhaps in the language exemplified by that example, all identifiers must be at least 2 characters :)
04:46 PerlJam of course, S02 says "An identifier is composed of an alphabetic character followed by any sequence of alphanumeric characters. The definitions of alphabetic and numeric include appropriate Unicode characters. Underscore is always considered alphabetic."
04:47 PerlJam depends on how you interpret "any sequence" really.
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04:55 specbot6 r13591 | larry++ | wrong quantifier on ident noted by putter++
05:00 * putter wonders if w is <alphanum>
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05:02 putter hmm, so does unicode alpha always include _, or is <alpha> ne <unicode alpha> ?
05:03 TimToady unicode alpha doesn't include _
05:03 devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: Intermission over. <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2​007/02/intermission_ov.html>
05:03 TimToady \w does, dunno about <alpha>
05:03 TimToady I think <alpha> is probaby unicode alpha
05:04 TimToady just to be consistent
05:16 putter blech, what ugly code.  sigh.
05:17 svnbot6 r15313 | putter++ | yet_another_regex_engine - Began p6 regex support.  Parrot rx_* tests currently 36% ok, 12 sec.
05:22 putter It would be nice to have a cannonical printed form for Matches.  Perhaps ideally one line.  So, for instance, the parrot rx_* tests could validate the entire match result, rather than just spotchecking it.
05:30 audreyt putter: Match("all matched": "positional", "captures" :named("capture") :another("named"))
05:30 audreyt something like that?
05:32 putter yes, I think.
05:33 audreyt that seems as canonical as I can fathom
05:34 putter perl Regexp_Module.pm --repl (subliminal advertising "tryyyyy itttt") shows its results as <1,"a",[],{},0,1>
05:34 audreyt though there's still the ok/from/to info
05:36 putter i really don't understand  Match("all matched": "positional", "captures" :named("capture") :another("named"))
05:36 audreyt it's a piece of perl 6 that constructs a Match object with the slots of $$/, @$/ and %$/ spelled out
05:36 audreyt it doesn't have the ?$/ $/.from $/.to info, though
05:38 audreyt though ?$/ (whether match succeeded) can be represented by encoding failure as simply Match()
05:38 putter a(b) -->  ???
05:38 audreyt ?eval :named("capture")
05:38 evalbot_r15306 ("named" => "capture")
05:39 TimToady ?eval Match.true
05:39 TimToady ?eval Match.true
05:39 evalbot_r15306 Bool::False
05:39 audreyt protoobj is false.
05:39 tene ?eval Match("all matched": "positional", "captures" :named("capture") :another("named"))
05:39 evalbot_r15306 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&Match"
05:40 audreyt ?eval \("all matched": "positional", "captures" :named("capture") :another("named"))
05:40 evalbot_r15306 CCall "perl" CaptMeth {c_invocant = VPure (CaptMeth {c_invocant = VPure (MkStr {unStr = "all matched"}), c_feeds = [MkFeed {f_positionals = [VPure (MkStr {unStr = "positional"}),VPure (MkStr {unStr = "captures"})], f_nameds = fromList [("named",[VPure (MkStr {unStr = "capture"})]),("another",[VPure (MkStr {unStr = "named"})])]}]}), c_feeds = [MkFeed {f_positionals = [], f_nameds = fromList []}]}
05:40 audreyt ok... that's a reminder that I should finish the MO bridge ;)
05:40 audreyt (it's a new-land Capture object that doesn't take methods yet)
05:41 tene Expand "MO"?
05:41 audreyt metaobject.
05:41 audreyt since haskell has no native object system
05:41 audreyt we invented one for it
05:41 audreyt lives in src/MO/*
05:42 tene Thanks.
05:42 audreyt np :)
05:42 putter a(b) --> ???     Match("a",[Match("b")])  ??? but that doesn't seem to be what you were suggesting...
05:43 audreyt putter: something like
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05:43 audreyt Match("ab": Match("b"))
05:43 audreyt or, abbreviated:
05:43 audreyt \("ab": \("b"))
05:44 audreyt it may be reasonable to simply discard from/to info and compare the capture tree. maybe.
05:45 putter "if it isn't tested, it doesn't work"
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05:46 audreyt \(0;2;"ab": \(1;2;"b"))
05:46 audreyt better?
05:46 * putter is confused by all the ; and : ;)
05:47 TimToady and what units are those numbers?
05:47 tene :)
05:47 audreyt \(FROM ; TO ; MATCH : POS1, POS2, POS3 :N1(NAMED1) :N2(NAMED2))
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05:48 audreyt TimToady: as this is part of spec-based test, I expect it to be whatever unit the test operates under
05:48 TimToady okay
05:49 TimToady I think : binds tighter than ;
05:49 audreyt it does
05:49 audreyt \(MATCH: POS1, POS2 :N1(NAM1) :N2(NAM2) ; FROM ; TO)  # this, then?
05:50 putter probably want unit constructors so  1 grapheme  can .perl as grapheme(1) or somesuch
05:51 putter though for here, bytes is the lowest common denominator, and knowing bytes, you know everything, yes?
05:52 audreyt hm. if the MATCH: is not specially crafted by "return" then we just write from and to
05:53 audreyt a(b)  ==>  \(\(;1;2);0;2)
05:53 TimToady loses information differently, anyway...
05:53 audreyt a(b)  ==>  \(0;2;\(1;2))
05:54 putter (see previous remark ending in "then it doesn't work")
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05:54 audreyt why?
05:54 audreyt when we just record the matched string, sure it's bogus because it can occur multiple times.
05:55 audreyt but by knowing the original string-to-match, doesn't from/to encode the matched string uniquely?
05:55 audreyt failing to see why it doesn't work
05:55 putter Murphy.  If matches are permitted to be confused about what their matched text is, they will be.
05:55 audreyt fair enough, spell it out then.
05:56 putter So yes, it is a viable minimal rep.  But that minimalism is at odds with the testing objective.
05:56 audreyt kk.
05:56 TimToady or include enough info to retreive the original uniquely
05:57 TimToady not clear that .WHICH is going to be less than the whole string, though...
05:57 putter I suppose you could separately test that the minimal constructors actually work, and then rely on object comparison with the test result.
05:57 putter Paranoid object comparison.
05:57 audreyt \('ab':\('b';1;2);0;2)  # then
05:57 TimToady $a ==== $b
05:57 audreyt it doesn't look that bad, actually :)
05:58 tene need more '=' I think
05:58 TimToady $a =:=:=:=:= $b
05:58 * putter considers hitti
05:59 TimToady maybe 'ab'(1,2) can be some kind of weird constructor
05:59 putter ng the unicode table to generate a stream of alternating equality-like symbols.   but no.
05:59 TimToady er, 0,2
05:59 putter Is the capture-match relationship described somewhere?
05:59 audreyt conceptually cleaner. doesn't save space/typing, though
06:00 audreyt S03.pod:the C<Match> object is a kind of C<Capture>, which has these capabilities.
06:00 TimToady thing is, 'ab' and (0,2) are isomorphicish
06:00 audreyt yup.
06:00 TimToady and I was thinking along the lines of sigs that re-analyse an arg: :( $node ($left,$right) )
06:02 audreyt so instead of calling &ab like in perl5, this time we annotate Str?
06:02 TimToady seems like one ought to be able to construct an arg similarly
06:02 TimToady not necessarily string, but some notation that builds a tree node as one thing.
06:03 TimToady I suppose that just means the invocant is also a capture...
06:03 audreyt yeah.
06:03 TimToady \( \("ab": 0,2): \("b": 1,2)) or some such
06:03 audreyt we already have a generic xexpr
06:04 audreyt *nod*
06:05 TimToady or \( \("ab": :from(0),:to(2)): \("b": :from(1),:to(2)))
06:05 audreyt though conceptually it's at the wrong level
06:05 audreyt a match can from 0 to 2
06:05 audreyt but has a completely irrelevant $$/
06:05 audreyt built from {return}
06:06 audreyt hence the choice of outofband semicolon
06:07 TimToady seems like returns makes it too easy to lose positional info
06:08 audreyt uh how?
06:08 putter 1am.  good night all &
06:09 TimToady if you return your own object it's unlikely to have .from and .to
06:09 TimToady I foresee someone building up a tree of these and then trying to produce a meaningful error message
06:09 TimToady and saying "oops"
06:09 audreyt mm? the Match still responds to .from and .to
06:09 audreyt it just delegates all other methods to that obj
06:10 audreyt if you want we can even shift to .:from and .:to
06:10 TimToady hmm
06:10 audreyt so the obj is never actually replacing the Match
06:10 audreyt of course we still have the positional trees
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06:11 TimToady I guess I'm actually too tired to think abou this now
06:12 audreyt :) sleep then
06:13 TimToady well, I'd just like to say that I'm glad you're recovering.
06:13 TimToady so...I'm glad you're recovering.
06:13 TimToady pace yourself.  :)
06:14 BooK_ joined perl6
06:14 TimToady zzz
06:14 TimToady &
06:14 audreyt :D
06:14 audreyt that I will.
06:14 audreyt I'll try to contain my excitement at having my brain back :D
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06:24 brad__ hi
06:25 tene hi
06:26 brad__ not much going on?
06:26 tene Not anymore.
06:26 brad__ just missed the excitement and high drama?
06:26 tene You missed the discussion about potential canonical representations of a Match.
06:27 brad__ hmm, would have been interesting to listen to (doubt i could add anything intelligent)
06:27 tene So stay logged in all the time and read the scrollback whenever you come back.
06:27 brad__ nah, too expensive to leave my pc on all the time
06:28 audreyt brad__: irssi+screen solves that problem :)
06:28 brad__ i am on irssi+screen now
06:28 audreyt a screen that lives on another host :)
06:28 brad__ ah
06:28 audreyt for example, perlcabal.org, aka feather
06:28 brad__ yes i have access to about 10,000 or so idle servers at yahoo i could use
06:28 audreyt is the host many of us uses :)
06:28 audreyt (I was about to say that :))
06:29 brad__ irc logs are always there too
06:29 audreyt yeah, but with offsite screen people can /msg you etc
06:29 brad__ audrey, i gave up trying to use darcs to get pugs...reverted to svn
06:30 brad__ "/msg"...i learn something new every day
06:30 brad__ guess i could rtfm on irc some day
06:30 audreyt oy. I broke darcs a week or so ago
06:30 audreyt fixing.
06:30 brad__ no problem, i have the svn checkout
06:31 brad__ speaking of haskell, have you tried "goa"?
06:31 brad__ ghci on acid
06:31 brad__ i would love to see perl -de 0 do stuff like that
06:32 brad__ a repl that talks back....intelligently!
06:33 audreyt fixed.
06:33 brad__ wow you are fast
06:34 svnbot6 r15314 | audreyt++ | * Fix darcs link at pugscode.org: The canonical URL is http://darcs.pugscode.org/.
06:34 lambdabot Title: Index of /
06:36 brad__ well i have to scram but thanks for fixing darcs audrey
06:36 brad__ take care and good night!
06:37 audreyt have fun :)
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06:57 ingy happy new year audreyt
06:57 audreyt ingy: thanks!
06:58 audreyt though I ended up spending the new year alone in this cell^Wroom
06:58 ingy are you in a hospital?
06:58 audreyt yes.
06:58 audreyt (see http://pugs.blogs.com/)
06:58 lambdabot Title: Pugs
06:58 ingy well I hope they are hospitable :)
06:59 audreyt they in fact will discarge me tomorrow :)
06:59 ingy better than a Hostel; I hear they can get hostile
06:59 ingy oh yay!
07:00 audreyt yeah. small price is no methylphenidate for me in the next month or so
07:00 audreyt (it taxes liver; also it masks tiredness)
07:00 audreyt but yeah, definitely beats liver failure
07:01 tene Hmm.
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07:02 ingy isn't estrogen hard on the liver?
07:02 tene Should pugs play nice with perl5 modules that uses XSLoader?
07:02 audreyt ingy: yeah :/ so no estradiol for me, either. this is going to be fun
07:02 tene That is to say, it doesn't seem to be.  Is that expected?
07:03 audreyt $ ./pugs -Mperl5:YAML::Syck=Dump -e 'say Dump [1,2,3]'
07:03 audreyt ---
07:03 audreyt - 1
07:03 audreyt - 2
07:03 audreyt - 3
07:03 audreyt worksforme (YAML::Syck uses XSLoader)
07:03 tene What is the "=Dump" syntax?
07:04 audreyt same as in perl5.
07:04 tene Hmm.
07:04 ingy glad to hear you are doing so well audreyt. can't wait to see you in April. good night...
07:04 audreyt perl -MCGI=:standard
07:04 audreyt ingy: g'nite!
07:05 dduncan nice that you're writing blogs again ... those are interesting to read
07:05 audreyt :)
07:07 audreyt hello
07:07 dduncan hello
07:07 audreyt (er. that was my gf.)
07:07 dduncan who?
07:08 dduncan or did you type in here by mistake?
07:08 dduncan nevermind
07:08 audreyt no, isis typed "hello" at my keyboard whilst I was away. I guess that's a hint that I should bbiab :)
07:08 audreyt or rather, bbl...
07:08 dduncan I just figured that out, hence the nevermind
07:08 audreyt :D
07:09 audreyt so, uhm, bbl :) *wave* &
07:09 dduncan yes
07:09 dduncan get lots of rest
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07:41 * gaal mooses
07:43 tene Any examples yet of wrapping a C library in perl6?
07:43 * Aankhen`` sneaks up behind gaal and whispers "Boo!".
07:45 gaal Aankhen``! hey :)
07:45 Aankhen`` Hiya. ^_^
07:46 Aankhen`` What's shakin'?
07:46 gaal tene: nope, but if you're looking for p5 there's the newly revived FFI.pm...
07:48 gaal Aankhen``: just random moose here and there... hopefully much more hacking to be resumed!
07:48 Aankhen`` Kewl.
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13:31 elmex yay, GPWS!
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16:37 specbot6 r13592 | larry++ | Conjecturalized the delegation-via-hash syntax for now.
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20:16 gaal http://maudnewton.com/blog/?p=7300 # -lcamel
20:16 lambdabot Title: Maud Newton: Blog
20:17 rindolf gaal: did you see the video on youtube about Vista Voice Recognition and writing a Perl script?
20:18 gaal I did.
20:18 rindolf gaal: yes, it was very amusing.
20:18 rindolf Press Caps lock.
20:18 rindolf "Info"
20:20 jisom he never tried upper case info!
20:21 jisom I don't know if that'd work
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22:36 ashleyb is there a web interface to browse the source code the repository where the official Synopsis' live (i.e. not the pugs repository trac interface)?
22:43 [particle] svn.pugscode.org ?
22:43 bsb ashleyb: like http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn/ ?
22:43 lambdabot Title: Revision 13592: /doc/trunk/design/syn
22:44 ashleyb yes that's it -- hmm but there's no diff-ing capabilities...
22:44 ashleyb that's really what I was looking for
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23:10 bsb ashleyb: checkout a copy with svn and diff locally: svn diff -r PREV:HEAD S29.pod
23:11 ashleyb ok cool, thx
23:13 bsb nws
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