Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-22

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Time Nick Message
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01:13 svnbot6 r15320 | lwall++ | hyper precedence needs to be transparently the same as inner operator
01:13 svnbot6 r15320 | lwall++ | meta non-recursion needs to attach to %+thisop rather than match object
01:13 svnbot6 r15320 | lwall++ | sublanguages still in pieces on the floor
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01:58 svnbot6 r15321 | lwall++ | prefixes and postfixes weren't propagating precedence upward enough
02:10 svnbot6 r15322 | lwall++ | typos, some sublang stuff
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03:19 audreyt @tell avar in the POD for "stash" the second "comp =>" should be "exec =>" no?
03:19 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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03:21 shay|p6 hello
03:23 audreyt greetings
03:23 lambdabot audreyt: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:23 audreyt lambdabot: moosages
03:24 audreyt (brb)
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04:59 ingy hi Schwern
05:04 Schwern hi
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06:24 miyagawa hi
06:32 TimToady 今日は。
06:32 audreyt greetings.
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06:36 REPLeffect auderyt: glad to hear you are doing better.
06:38 audreyt REPLeffect: danke. :)
06:38 REPLeffect (and it's good to see postings on planetsix.perl.org again :-D )
06:39 miyagawa TimToady: 今晩は
06:39 miyagawa audreyt: Takahashi-san is apparently going to osdc.tw
06:40 audreyt I heard. but not giving talks. wonder why.
06:41 miyagawa i agree. I suggested him to give LT at least
06:43 audreyt that'd be cool. his talk is... legendary
06:44 miyagawa yeah
06:45 gaal moose
06:46 audreyt moo!
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06:59 audreyt gaal: today's GHC finally 1)built and 2)has fast-enough ghci debugger (indistinguishable from -fno-debugging)
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07:08 gaal yay!
07:08 * gaal pines for the tbz2s
07:09 gaal afk&
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08:21 svnbot6 r15323 | lwall++ | sublanguages a little closer to real
08:23 jisom_ does pugs have in practice something like perl5's -T operator, true if a file appears to be a text file
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08:25 Aankhen`` Wasn't that something like this? $file ~~ :T
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08:30 audreyt jisom_: write a test?
08:31 audreyt t/operators/filetest.t
08:31 audreyt and test that ~~:T works
08:33 audreyt jisom_: a commit bit is on its way to your inbox. please add yourself to AUTHORS :)
08:36 * jisom_ didn't expect that result
08:37 tene jisom_: you must be new here.
08:37 jisom_ I work with parrot more than pugs
08:37 jisom_ was hoping to steal it
08:37 tene Welcome to #perl6, where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a commit bit.
08:37 moritz ;)
08:38 jisom_ of all the little things I've done for parrot, I never even added myself, I think leo did
08:39 audreyt jisom_: anyway, the test you add will be reused on parrot end anyway (as soon as patrick makes 01-sanity pass), so why not :)
08:40 moritz audreyt: are you at home again?
08:40 moritz audreyt: or still in the hospital?
08:40 audreyt @home. freshly discharged yesterday
08:40 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
08:41 moritz audreyt++ congratulations ;)
08:41 moritz hospital is _so_ boring...
08:41 audreyt indeed
08:41 moritz I've never been there myself for long, but my girlfriend has a cardic pacemaker...
08:41 audreyt oy
08:44 audreyt jisom_: can you add the -T etc tests? :)
08:44 moritz hey, 'make soon' is really fast - how cool
08:44 audreyt :D
08:45 * jisom_ wonders if :T is suppose to exist
08:45 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
08:45 audreyt it is
08:45 jisom_ S03 seems to say nothing
08:45 jisom_ at least not explicitly
08:45 audreyt which means it's same with p5
08:46 audreyt (anything not explicitly said as changed is assumed to be unchanged)
08:46 jisom_ ok
08:47 audreyt the implementation is in.
08:47 svnbot6 r15324 | audreyt++ | * Support for the full test of file test operators: oRWXOlpSbctugkTB
08:47 svnbot6 r15324 | audreyt++ |   (the rest were already supported.)  For example:
08:47 svnbot6 r15324 | audreyt++ |     "README" ~~ :T      # True
08:47 svnbot6 r15324 | audreyt++ |   Thanks to jisom++ for prompting it.
08:47 audreyt *full set
08:48 audreyt as for implementation -- note that pugs always embed perl5 :)
08:48 audreyt # so this is just a perl5 bridge
08:48 moritz ;)
08:48 moritz its kind of cheating isf you ask me - but never mind ;)
08:48 audreyt I mean, how else would you support the full Unicode 4.0 charnames?
08:48 audreyt shipping UnicodeData.txt with pugs?
08:49 audreyt it's called continuity, if you ask me :)
08:49 moritz or lazyness - which is a good thing, yes ;)
08:49 jisom_ oh pugs isn't perl6, just a perl6 interpreter, technical difference
08:49 audreyt right. gcc isn't C, either.
08:49 jisom_ but written in c
08:50 jisom_ so is c
08:50 audreyt eventually pugs will be written in perl6, but the plan is still to embed perl5.
08:50 jisom_ g++ is probably in c, but compiles c++, so not c++
08:50 audreyt so sun's java is not java?
08:50 audreyt parrot's tcl isn't tcl?
08:50 moritz I am pretty sure that java is self-hosting
08:50 * audreyt doesn't quite follow
08:51 rgs at least, perl 5 is perl 5. probably
08:51 audreyt but perl5 is written in C
08:51 audreyt so it's not perl, per jisom's criteria
08:51 moritz let's just redefine 'is' ;)
08:52 * jisom_ thinks
08:52 jisom_ it's all assembly in the end?
08:52 jisom_ is now known as jisom
08:52 audreyt it's all machine code in the end, yes
08:52 audreyt but we prefer not to think it that way :)
08:52 audreyt we prefer to think that it's all turtles
08:52 audreyt all the way down
08:53 rgs below the elephants, you mean
08:53 audreyt elephants are just larger, elephant-shaped turtles
08:53 moritz do I smell Pratchett around? *g*
08:54 rgs package elephant; use base "turtle"
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09:28 gaal it's elephants all the way down?
09:28 jisom no, turtles
09:29 gaal it's smaller, turtle-shaped elephants all the way down?
09:30 shay hello
09:34 gaal hi
09:47 pdcawley elephant shaped turtles?
09:48 audreyt pdcawley: backlog (~1hr)
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09:48 pdcawley Drat.
09:48 pdcawley Whatever I say, Audrey got their first.
09:49 audreyt sheer coincidence
09:51 pdcawley Tangentially, but sort of fitting with the turlephants all the way down idea, did you see the video of Ian Piumarta's talk at Stanford recently?
09:51 * pdcawley hunts the URL.
09:51 audreyt "Building your own dynamic language"?
09:52 shay gaal, shalom
09:52 pdcawley Yeah.
09:53 gaal hola
09:53 shay cómo estás?
09:53 gaal todo bien
09:53 shay de verdad hablas español, o eso es todo lo que sabes? :)
09:54 gaal לא, סתם מחרטט.
09:54 shay I just see "?"s
09:54 pdcawley And the horse you rode in on!
09:54 gaal audreyt: still eager to see newnewVal scheme
09:54 audreyt pdcawley: cute
09:54 audreyt gaal: still lazy to produce it
09:55 gaal ah, fine fine
09:55 audreyt but seriously, I'll be able to hack in earnest after tomorrow morning's follow-up check
09:55 gaal no rush :)
09:56 audreyt yeah :) till then I'll just set up the hacking environment, both in the digital and in the analog world...
09:56 audreyt <- still settling in to @home
09:56 gaal home++
09:56 audreyt @~
09:56 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
09:57 gaal is that supposed to be \bot's builtin handwave op?
09:58 gaal @hw Pugs.Parser
09:58 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . bf ft ghc id pl rc show v wn yow
09:58 gaal drat
10:09 tene pdcawley: let me know if you find a url.
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10:38 audreyt dinner... bbiab
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11:34 avar audreyt: yep, I fixed that in my working copy a few days ago
11:34 lambdabot avar: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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11:48 pdcawley tene: http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/
11:48 lambdabot Title: Stanford Computer Systems Laboratory Colloquium
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14:35 moritz is there a gtk-binding for perl 6 already?
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14:55 moritz ?eval "foo".comb(m/o/)
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14:55 evalbot_r15324 ("o", "o")
14:55 moritz ?eval comb("foo", m/o/)
14:55 evalbot_r15324 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&comb"
14:55 moritz shouldn't those two be constructs be the same?
15:03 audreyt moritz: use perl5:Gtk;
15:03 audreyt ?eval comb "foo": m/o/
15:03 audreyt ?eval comb "foo": /o/
15:03 evalbot_r15324 ("o", "o")
15:03 evalbot_r15324 ("o", "o")
15:03 moritz audreyt: thanks and thanks ;)
15:03 audreyt :)
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15:13 moritz I'm just trying to 'cat' som files, using while my $line = $file.readline() { say $line; }...
15:13 moritz and some files are reproduced correctly
15:13 moritz while others deliver only the first line, or the first few
15:14 moritz for example with README only the first 12 lines are reproduced
15:14 moritz any idea what might be wrong?
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15:15 [particle] did the perl 6 idiom for filehandle reads change from while to for?
15:16 rhr maybe while defined my $line = ... ?
15:16 [particle] i wonder if =$file.readline.say; would work
15:17 moritz rhr: that's it, thank you
15:17 [particle] or maybe it's just =$file.say
15:17 moritz [particle]: later I want to do more to files than just cat them ;)
15:18 [particle] does for $file.readline -> $line { say $line }; work?
15:19 moritz it dies with "*** Undeclared variable: "$file"
15:19 [particle] design\syn\S04.pod
15:19 [particle] 249:In particular, we now generally use C<for> to iterate filehandles.
15:20 moritz even thoug I decleared $line
15:20 moritz wtf?
15:20 [particle] i may have the syntax wrong, i haven't programmed perl 6 in a while
15:23 allbery_b I think it's =$file.say
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15:24 [particle] allbery_b: i think he wants to expand on it, so that optimization isn't desired
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17:05 svnbot6 r15325 | audreyt++ | * Remove debug warnings for ~~:T etc.
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17:43 devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: Various uses of embedded Perl 5. <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2​007/02/various_uses_of.html>
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18:59 svnbot6 r15326 | lwall++ | Added configurable tabstop.
19:24 svnbot6 r15327 | lwall++ | Y -> Z, XX -> X
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19:53 specbot6 r13700 | larry++ | More Y XX -> Z X clarifications
19:53 specbot6 r13700 | larry++ | Now allow "constant $?TABSTOP = 4" syntax for user to set compiler variables.
19:54 jrockway multiple personalities :)
19:57 TimToady yeah, he's really crazy
19:58 TimToady I mean, we're really crazy
19:59 jisom you don't have a timtoady commit bit?
19:59 TimToady no, that would be confusing
20:00 * [particle] r15328 | particle | committed timtoady
20:01 * TimToady thinks trying to confuse TimToady is redundant...
20:02 jrockway svnbot should write (larry|lwall|TimToady)++
20:02 jrockway or maybe $TimToady
20:03 TimToady karma (larry|lwall|TimToady)
20:03 jabbot TimToady: (larry|lwall|TimToady) has neutral karma
20:06 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
20:07 specbot6 r13701 | larry++ | Change hardwired 8 to $?TABSTOP // 8 for heredocs
20:09 TimToady why can't he make up his mind...PERL 6 is never going to be finished at this rate...
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20:13 * TimToady wanders off to get temporarily wetter
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20:17 rindolf Hi all.
20:17 rindolf Can someone unban n=shlomi@bzq-88-153-132-253.red.bezeqint.net) from #perl?
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21:01 specbot6 r13702 | larry++ | typo from aaroncrane++
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22:06 svnbot6 r15328 | lwall++ | More X/Z fixes
22:06 svnbot6 r15328 | lwall++ | t/operators/precedence.t was using old precedence table
22:07 cj TimToady: does that mean we're done?
22:08 cj oh, wait... I'd probably have to contribute something more than my name to the AUTHORS file to be considered part of we
22:08 TimToady what is this "done" concept that you mention?
22:08 cj one day I will have infinte time and contribute to all of the fun things
22:08 cj TimToady: something I heard about at a conference somewhere
22:09 TimToady sure it wasn't a steak grilling conference?
22:09 cj might have been.  come to thing of it, I think it was
22:09 cj s/g/k/ of course
22:10 tene cj: "mikht"?
22:12 cj tene: I was afraid nobody would know what I was talking about
22:12 TimToady the problem with waiting till you have infinite time is that you never get to the fun things...
22:13 TimToady eat dessert first, and all that...
22:13 cj TimToady: naughty!
22:13 TimToady sweets for the sweet, and naughts for the naughty
22:14 TimToady though I'd settle for Knott's
22:14 cj any of your spawn still attending school up here?
22:14 TimToady Geneva
22:15 cj tell her she should stop by for lunch some time!  I'm in the big black building
22:15 TimToady k
22:15 Limbic_Region joined perl6
22:15 cj 18th floor, ask for cjcoll@
22:15 TimToady the one the space needle came in?
22:15 [particle] the one the giant beaver has been eating?
22:16 cj TimToady: I think it was built a couple of decades after the space needle
22:16 TimToady does it have a brass dancer in front?
22:17 TimToady that looks like it's slipping on a banana peel?
22:17 cj not that I know of... maybe if it's very very small...
22:17 cj http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Center
22:19 TimToady nah, this was a completely rectangular building older than that.
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22:22 TimToady it's the black building you can see behind the Wash Mutual tower in this picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/Washington_Mutual_Tower
22:22 lambdabot Title: Washington Mutual Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
22:23 TimToady I suppose it could be the same building the beaver was gnawing on, now that I think back...
22:26 TimToady anyway, it was built about the same time as the Space Needle, and was about the same size, so we called it the box the Space Needle came in.
22:26 TimToady used to be the tallest building downtown.
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22:34 cj TimToady: oh, one caveat: I work from home on Fridays
22:36 cj and although we'd be happy to have her visit for lunch, we live in Everett ;)
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23:27 DebolazX Out of curiosity, has anyone made any perl6/ruby comparison? Adventages/disaventages compared to each other, etc.
23:29 jrockway what are you looking for in particular?
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23:30 moritz perl6 is cooler, ruby is fully implemented ;)
23:30 DebolazX Well, I am curious about what (perceived) adventages are with either language.. one thing that has annoyed me with ruby is the lack of variable declaration.
23:31 DebolazX I'm not trying to be onesided here, there are things in perl 6 I don't like either. But I have seen several comparisons between perl 5 and ruby, so I was curious if there were any between perl 6 and ruby.
23:32 allbery_b I think perl6 needs to settle down more first
23:33 jrockway i would see no reason to use ruby after perl6 has stabilized
23:34 specbot6 r13703 | larry++ | Clarify that a named argument may name either the label or the variable name.
23:34 jrockway the ruby folks are thinking about using parrot to run ruby
23:34 jrockway so it will be the same VM (possibly)
23:34 Limbic_Region jrockway - then you aren't thinking very polylingual
23:34 TimToady and the pugs folks are thinking about using ruby to run Perl 6.  :)
23:34 PerlJam jrockway: ruby may incorporate all of the things learned from perl6 by the time perl6 stablizes :)
23:34 Limbic_Region jrockway - the advantage of the parrot based perl 6 implementation is that you will get to use libraries from any language that target parrot
23:34 TimToady well, we already know they're borrowing ->
23:34 jrockway unlikely; python 3000 is as "vaporish" as perl6
23:34 jrockway i don't keep up on ruby much
23:35 jrockway ruby and python both have neat features that i would like to see, but not enough neat features to switch
23:35 jrockway and throw away the CPAN and years of perl experience :)
23:35 jrockway haskell OTOH i quite like, and it will tide me over until perl6 is real
23:35 PerlJam jrockway: what do you mean "switch"?  I program in perl.  I program in php.  I program in python.  I soon will program in ruby.   These are not mutually exclusive things  :-)
23:36 jrockway no, but why bother (is what i ask myself)
23:36 jrockway why write something in ruby when i can do it 3x faster in perl
23:36 jrockway it's the same end result
23:36 jrockway which is why i don't really care too much about the programming language holy wars
23:36 PerlJam jrockway: But the journey is different
23:36 jrockway it's what you do, not how you do it
23:36 PerlJam And it's the journey that's often most important.
23:37 PerlJam (now, if you're just interested in getting the results, then obviously you chose the method that works best for you)
23:37 jrockway how so
23:38 DebolazX In my experience, perl does most real world jobs faster than most of the other languages, in part thanks to the enormous CPAN. But disregarding external factors like that, ruby does seem awfully tempting.
23:38 PerlJam jrockway: It's like a C programmer asking "Why would I ever use LISP?"     There are lessons that LISP teaches quite well as compared to C.  There are some lessons that ruby can teach you.
23:38 jrockway i guess writing something in ruby or python is the same journey for me
23:38 jrockway haskell feels differnt to me
23:38 PerlJam (At the very least think of it as a case of "hold your friends close, but your enemies closer"  :-)
23:38 jrockway so in that sense, i enjoy the journey
23:38 jrockway but i don't think i would enjoy ruby
23:38 jrockway it's not *that* different from perl, that's all
23:39 jrockway PHP is an interesting journey, however
23:39 jrockway i've learned that the perfect programming language will be the complete opposite of it :)
23:40 moritz jrockway: when you've done enough CGI-stuff in perl, PHP just feels .. ugly ;)
23:40 jrockway yup, my current job is all PHP (not for much longer though)
23:41 PerlJam my current job is PHP too.
23:41 PerlJam prior to this job, I wrote some bit of perl code practically every day for years and years.
23:41 PerlJam I've written maybe 10 perl programs and maybe 20 or 30 one-liners in the last 3 months.
23:42 jrockway so do you like PHP better?
23:42 PerlJam no.
23:42 jrockway :)
23:42 moritz it would be suicide to admit it in #perl* ;)
23:42 jrockway there's not much to like about it :)
23:43 PerlJam people who like php better don't have the breadth of knowledge from which to compare
23:43 jrockway agreed
23:43 jrockway i'm surprised it's so popular though
23:43 PerlJam jrockway: and we're back to why you should learn ruby  ;-)
23:43 moritz jrockway: it's an easy start, if you just know html
23:44 DebolazX jrockway: Why? It's pretty obvious why it's so popular, it's easily deployable.
23:44 PerlJam why are you surprised?  PHP is the king of ubiquity and good-enough.
23:44 jrockway i'm surprised people that know better pick it (like yahoo, for example)
23:44 DebolazX As opposed to perl, requiring either the ugly CGI interface or a dedicated server.
23:44 jrockway they can hire some dude to keep mod_perl alive :)
23:44 jrockway i'm mostly thinking about real apps
23:44 __Ace__ joined perl6
23:44 jrockway not "joe's home page" or whatever
23:44 * PerlJam wants parrot to edge into the ubiquity market though by being in web servers *and* browsers :-)
23:45 DebolazX jrockway: But quantity implies popularity. A lot of people use it in general, so many people will use it for more advanced applications.
23:45 jrockway sure, and it's easy to find cheap PHP programmers
23:45 DebolazX Because of the quantity.
23:45 jrockway yup, same with java though
23:45 moritz hey, maybe javascript on parrot could speed up mozilla & co ;)
23:46 jrockway i haven't learned ruby because i don't think it would be a fundamental change in the way i think about programming
23:46 PerlJam jrockway: you're probably right about that.
23:46 jrockway haskell and functional is, which has kept my interested through the no-productivity stage :)
23:46 DebolazX I've talked to many perl developers who simply could not understand that easy deployment was a good thing, it seemed at the time the majority felt every application should be its own server.
23:46 jrockway hmm
23:47 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
23:47 jrockway i PAR up my perl apps, run svc -t appname, and i'm done
23:47 jrockway that's much easier than the various issues I have to fight with in PHP
23:47 jrockway php.ini, etc.
23:47 PerlJam DebolazX: see RoR and Jifty  :-)
23:47 jrockway catalyst :)
23:47 DebolazX RoR/Jifty/Catalyst isn't easily deployable compared to PHP.
23:48 DebolazX For the poor soab admin running the public hosting service most people use.
23:48 jrockway i don't think easy deployment is worth the random major security problems, the lack of a sane language, no modules, etc.
23:48 jrockway i guess that's the php culture
23:49 jrockway "do most of the work, screw getting it right"
23:49 jrockway compare DateTime to php's date/time functions
23:49 jrockway datetime is bloated because date/time is a hard problem
23:49 jrockway however, it's easy if you don't think about it
23:49 jrockway and the bugs probably won't be *too* bad
23:49 PerlJam jrockway: such things didn't hinder Microsoft and they certainly won't hinder php.
23:49 jrockway so PHP wins
23:49 jrockway yeah, i'm not sure i really care about PHP's success
23:50 jrockway i'll have a nice Perl job in the future, and there's enough activity in the perl community to keep me very interested
23:50 jrockway and that's all i need really
23:50 PerlJam jrockway: what's the perl job?
23:50 DebolazX jrockway: I'm not saying PHP is great as a language. I'm not saying there aren't various horrible things about its implementation. I'm saying that it beat perl on quantity through easy deployment. It was leaps and bounds better than CGI for most people, and there were few alternatives.
23:50 PerlJam (and can you work parrot/perl6 into it?  ;-)
23:50 jrockway PerlJam: well, i'm looking at 2 right now
23:51 jrockway one is data warehousing, the other is working with $UNNAMED_MEMBER_OF_PERL6_COMMUNITY
23:51 jrockway details after i make a decision :)
23:51 PerlJam jrockway: depending on the latter, that's the one I'd choose.
23:51 jrockway yeah, the data warehousing one would be cool
23:52 jrockway but they're making me sign away my life, which scares me
23:52 PerlJam "We own your soul"  sign and date below.
23:52 jrockway anything that's not PHP is worth it, though, IMHO
23:52 jrockway i'm just not very productive with PHP, and that bugs me
23:53 PerlJam I've actually experienced a little of that in this PHP job.  But my productivity has improved the more I use it.
23:54 PerlJam The thing that bugs me most about PHP right now is the lack of mnemonic cues.
23:54 jrockway i miss Test::More and having a framework
23:54 jrockway i like catalyst; not using it seems mildly insane to me
23:57 jrockway and unfortunately i'm getting the urge more and more to rewrite parts in haskell :)
23:57 jrockway i remember an hour long meeting about how to represent things like "Winter 2007" in the application
23:57 jrockway data Term a = Spring a | Summer a | Fall a | Winter a deriving (Read, Show, Eq) and we're done :)
23:58 jrockway unfortunately we now have an entire class, filled with random PHP and database workarounds
23:58 jrockway ah, i have to go... going to miss the train :)
23:58 * jrockway &

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