| Time |
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Message |
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svnbot6 |
r15320 | lwall++ | hyper precedence needs to be transparently the same as inner operator |
| 01:13 |
|
svnbot6 |
r15320 | lwall++ | meta non-recursion needs to attach to %+thisop rather than match object |
| 01:13 |
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svnbot6 |
r15320 | lwall++ | sublanguages still in pieces on the floor |
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svnbot6 |
r15321 | lwall++ | prefixes and postfixes weren't propagating precedence upward enough |
| 02:10 |
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svnbot6 |
r15322 | lwall++ | typos, some sublang stuff |
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| 03:19 |
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audreyt |
@tell avar in the POD for "stash" the second "comp =>" should be "exec =>" no? |
| 03:19 |
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lambdabot |
Consider it noted. |
| 03:20 |
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| 03:21 |
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shay|p6 |
hello |
| 03:23 |
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audreyt |
greetings |
| 03:23 |
|
lambdabot |
audreyt: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. |
| 03:23 |
|
audreyt |
lambdabot: moosages |
| 03:24 |
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audreyt |
(brb) |
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| 04:59 |
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ingy |
hi Schwern |
| 05:04 |
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Schwern |
hi |
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| 06:14 |
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| 06:24 |
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miyagawa |
hi |
| 06:32 |
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TimToady |
ä»æ¥ã¯ã |
| 06:32 |
|
audreyt |
greetings. |
| 06:33 |
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| 06:36 |
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REPLeffect |
auderyt: glad to hear you are doing better. |
| 06:38 |
|
audreyt |
REPLeffect: danke. :) |
| 06:38 |
|
REPLeffect |
(and it's good to see postings on planetsix.perl.org again :-D ) |
| 06:39 |
|
miyagawa |
TimToady: ä»æ©ã¯ |
| 06:39 |
|
miyagawa |
audreyt: Takahashi-san is apparently going to osdc.tw |
| 06:40 |
|
audreyt |
I heard. but not giving talks. wonder why. |
| 06:41 |
|
miyagawa |
i agree. I suggested him to give LT at least |
| 06:43 |
|
audreyt |
that'd be cool. his talk is... legendary |
| 06:44 |
|
miyagawa |
yeah |
| 06:45 |
|
gaal |
moose |
| 06:46 |
|
audreyt |
moo! |
| 06:51 |
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| 06:59 |
|
audreyt |
gaal: today's GHC finally 1)built and 2)has fast-enough ghci debugger (indistinguishable from -fno-debugging) |
| 07:00 |
|
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| 07:08 |
|
gaal |
yay! |
| 07:08 |
|
* gaal |
pines for the tbz2s |
| 07:09 |
|
gaal |
afk& |
| 07:10 |
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| 07:53 |
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| 08:21 |
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svnbot6 |
r15323 | lwall++ | sublanguages a little closer to real |
| 08:23 |
|
jisom_ |
does pugs have in practice something like perl5's -T operator, true if a file appears to be a text file |
| 08:25 |
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| 08:25 |
|
Aankhen`` |
Wasn't that something like this? $file ~~ :T |
| 08:27 |
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| 08:29 |
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| 08:30 |
|
audreyt |
jisom_: write a test? |
| 08:31 |
|
audreyt |
t/operators/filetest.t |
| 08:31 |
|
audreyt |
and test that ~~:T works |
| 08:33 |
|
audreyt |
jisom_: a commit bit is on its way to your inbox. please add yourself to AUTHORS :) |
| 08:36 |
|
* jisom_ |
didn't expect that result |
| 08:37 |
|
tene |
jisom_: you must be new here. |
| 08:37 |
|
jisom_ |
I work with parrot more than pugs |
| 08:37 |
|
jisom_ |
was hoping to steal it |
| 08:37 |
|
tene |
Welcome to #perl6, where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a commit bit. |
| 08:37 |
|
moritz |
;) |
| 08:38 |
|
jisom_ |
of all the little things I've done for parrot, I never even added myself, I think leo did |
| 08:39 |
|
audreyt |
jisom_: anyway, the test you add will be reused on parrot end anyway (as soon as patrick makes 01-sanity pass), so why not :) |
| 08:40 |
|
moritz |
audreyt: are you at home again? |
| 08:40 |
|
moritz |
audreyt: or still in the hospital? |
| 08:40 |
|
audreyt |
@home. freshly discharged yesterday |
| 08:40 |
|
lambdabot |
Unknown command, try @list |
| 08:41 |
|
moritz |
audreyt++ congratulations ;) |
| 08:41 |
|
moritz |
hospital is _so_ boring... |
| 08:41 |
|
audreyt |
indeed |
| 08:41 |
|
moritz |
I've never been there myself for long, but my girlfriend has a cardic pacemaker... |
| 08:41 |
|
audreyt |
oy |
| 08:44 |
|
audreyt |
jisom_: can you add the -T etc tests? :) |
| 08:44 |
|
moritz |
hey, 'make soon' is really fast - how cool |
| 08:44 |
|
audreyt |
:D |
| 08:45 |
|
* jisom_ |
wonders if :T is suppose to exist |
| 08:45 |
|
|
CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun |
| 08:45 |
|
audreyt |
it is |
| 08:45 |
|
jisom_ |
S03 seems to say nothing |
| 08:45 |
|
jisom_ |
at least not explicitly |
| 08:45 |
|
audreyt |
which means it's same with p5 |
| 08:46 |
|
audreyt |
(anything not explicitly said as changed is assumed to be unchanged) |
| 08:46 |
|
jisom_ |
ok |
| 08:47 |
|
audreyt |
the implementation is in. |
| 08:47 |
|
svnbot6 |
r15324 | audreyt++ | * Support for the full test of file test operators: oRWXOlpSbctugkTB |
| 08:47 |
|
svnbot6 |
r15324 | audreyt++ | (the rest were already supported.) For example: |
| 08:47 |
|
svnbot6 |
r15324 | audreyt++ | "README" ~~ :T # True |
| 08:47 |
|
svnbot6 |
r15324 | audreyt++ | Thanks to jisom++ for prompting it. |
| 08:47 |
|
audreyt |
*full set |
| 08:48 |
|
audreyt |
as for implementation -- note that pugs always embed perl5 :) |
| 08:48 |
|
audreyt |
# so this is just a perl5 bridge |
| 08:48 |
|
moritz |
;) |
| 08:48 |
|
moritz |
its kind of cheating isf you ask me - but never mind ;) |
| 08:48 |
|
audreyt |
I mean, how else would you support the full Unicode 4.0 charnames? |
| 08:48 |
|
audreyt |
shipping UnicodeData.txt with pugs? |
| 08:49 |
|
audreyt |
it's called continuity, if you ask me :) |
| 08:49 |
|
moritz |
or lazyness - which is a good thing, yes ;) |
| 08:49 |
|
jisom_ |
oh pugs isn't perl6, just a perl6 interpreter, technical difference |
| 08:49 |
|
audreyt |
right. gcc isn't C, either. |
| 08:49 |
|
jisom_ |
but written in c |
| 08:50 |
|
jisom_ |
so is c |
| 08:50 |
|
audreyt |
eventually pugs will be written in perl6, but the plan is still to embed perl5. |
| 08:50 |
|
jisom_ |
g++ is probably in c, but compiles c++, so not c++ |
| 08:50 |
|
audreyt |
so sun's java is not java? |
| 08:50 |
|
audreyt |
parrot's tcl isn't tcl? |
| 08:50 |
|
moritz |
I am pretty sure that java is self-hosting |
| 08:50 |
|
* audreyt |
doesn't quite follow |
| 08:51 |
|
rgs |
at least, perl 5 is perl 5. probably |
| 08:51 |
|
audreyt |
but perl5 is written in C |
| 08:51 |
|
audreyt |
so it's not perl, per jisom's criteria |
| 08:51 |
|
moritz |
let's just redefine 'is' ;) |
| 08:52 |
|
* jisom_ |
thinks |
| 08:52 |
|
jisom_ |
it's all assembly in the end? |
| 08:52 |
|
|
jisom_ is now known as jisom |
| 08:52 |
|
audreyt |
it's all machine code in the end, yes |
| 08:52 |
|
audreyt |
but we prefer not to think it that way :) |
| 08:52 |
|
audreyt |
we prefer to think that it's all turtles |
| 08:52 |
|
audreyt |
all the way down |
| 08:53 |
|
rgs |
below the elephants, you mean |
| 08:53 |
|
audreyt |
elephants are just larger, elephant-shaped turtles |
| 08:53 |
|
moritz |
do I smell Pratchett around? *g* |
| 08:54 |
|
rgs |
package elephant; use base "turtle" |
| 09:16 |
|
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| 09:28 |
|
gaal |
it's elephants all the way down? |
| 09:28 |
|
jisom |
no, turtles |
| 09:29 |
|
gaal |
it's smaller, turtle-shaped elephants all the way down? |
| 09:30 |
|
shay |
hello |
| 09:34 |
|
gaal |
hi |
| 09:47 |
|
pdcawley |
elephant shaped turtles? |
| 09:48 |
|
audreyt |
pdcawley: backlog (~1hr) |
| 09:48 |
|
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| 09:48 |
|
pdcawley |
Drat. |
| 09:48 |
|
pdcawley |
Whatever I say, Audrey got their first. |
| 09:49 |
|
audreyt |
sheer coincidence |
| 09:51 |
|
pdcawley |
Tangentially, but sort of fitting with the turlephants all the way down idea, did you see the video of Ian Piumarta's talk at Stanford recently? |
| 09:51 |
|
* pdcawley |
hunts the URL. |
| 09:51 |
|
audreyt |
"Building your own dynamic language"? |
| 09:52 |
|
shay |
gaal, shalom |
| 09:52 |
|
pdcawley |
Yeah. |
| 09:53 |
|
gaal |
hola |
| 09:53 |
|
shay |
cómo estás? |
| 09:53 |
|
gaal |
todo bien |
| 09:53 |
|
shay |
de verdad hablas español, o eso es todo lo que sabes? :) |
| 09:54 |
|
gaal |
××, ×¡×ª× ××ר××. |
| 09:54 |
|
shay |
I just see "?"s |
| 09:54 |
|
pdcawley |
And the horse you rode in on! |
| 09:54 |
|
gaal |
audreyt: still eager to see newnewVal scheme |
| 09:54 |
|
audreyt |
pdcawley: cute |
| 09:54 |
|
audreyt |
gaal: still lazy to produce it |
| 09:55 |
|
gaal |
ah, fine fine |
| 09:55 |
|
audreyt |
but seriously, I'll be able to hack in earnest after tomorrow morning's follow-up check |
| 09:55 |
|
gaal |
no rush :) |
| 09:56 |
|
audreyt |
yeah :) till then I'll just set up the hacking environment, both in the digital and in the analog world... |
| 09:56 |
|
audreyt |
<- still settling in to @home |
| 09:56 |
|
gaal |
home++ |
| 09:56 |
|
audreyt |
@~ |
| 09:56 |
|
lambdabot |
Maybe you meant: . v |
| 09:57 |
|
gaal |
is that supposed to be \bot's builtin handwave op? |
| 09:58 |
|
gaal |
@hw Pugs.Parser |
| 09:58 |
|
lambdabot |
Maybe you meant: . bf ft ghc id pl rc show v wn yow |
| 09:58 |
|
gaal |
drat |
| 10:09 |
|
tene |
pdcawley: let me know if you find a url. |
| 10:35 |
|
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| 10:38 |
|
audreyt |
dinner... bbiab |
| 10:54 |
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| 10:54 |
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| 10:57 |
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| 11:17 |
|
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| 11:34 |
|
avar |
audreyt: yep, I fixed that in my working copy a few days ago |
| 11:34 |
|
lambdabot |
avar: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. |
| 11:41 |
|
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| 11:41 |
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| 11:48 |
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pdcawley |
tene: http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ |
| 11:48 |
|
lambdabot |
Title: Stanford Computer Systems Laboratory Colloquium |
| 11:48 |
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| 14:29 |
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| 14:30 |
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| 14:35 |
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moritz |
is there a gtk-binding for perl 6 already? |
| 14:44 |
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| 14:55 |
|
moritz |
?eval "foo".comb(m/o/) |
| 14:55 |
|
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evalbot_r15319 is now known as evalbot_r15324 |
| 14:55 |
|
evalbot_r15324 |
("o", "o") |
| 14:55 |
|
moritz |
?eval comb("foo", m/o/) |
| 14:55 |
|
evalbot_r15324 |
Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&comb" |
| 14:55 |
|
moritz |
shouldn't those two be constructs be the same? |
| 15:03 |
|
audreyt |
moritz: use perl5:Gtk; |
| 15:03 |
|
audreyt |
?eval comb "foo": m/o/ |
| 15:03 |
|
audreyt |
?eval comb "foo": /o/ |
| 15:03 |
|
evalbot_r15324 |
("o", "o") |
| 15:03 |
|
evalbot_r15324 |
("o", "o") |
| 15:03 |
|
moritz |
audreyt: thanks and thanks ;) |
| 15:03 |
|
audreyt |
:) |
| 15:12 |
|
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| 15:13 |
|
moritz |
I'm just trying to 'cat' som files, using while my $line = $file.readline() { say $line; }... |
| 15:13 |
|
moritz |
and some files are reproduced correctly |
| 15:13 |
|
moritz |
while others deliver only the first line, or the first few |
| 15:14 |
|
moritz |
for example with README only the first 12 lines are reproduced |
| 15:14 |
|
moritz |
any idea what might be wrong? |
| 15:14 |
|
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| 15:15 |
|
[particle] |
did the perl 6 idiom for filehandle reads change from while to for? |
| 15:16 |
|
rhr |
maybe while defined my $line = ... ? |
| 15:16 |
|
[particle] |
i wonder if =$file.readline.say; would work |
| 15:17 |
|
moritz |
rhr: that's it, thank you |
| 15:17 |
|
[particle] |
or maybe it's just =$file.say |
| 15:17 |
|
moritz |
[particle]: later I want to do more to files than just cat them ;) |
| 15:18 |
|
[particle] |
does for $file.readline -> $line { say $line }; work? |
| 15:19 |
|
moritz |
it dies with "*** Undeclared variable: "$file" |
| 15:19 |
|
[particle] |
design\syn\S04.pod |
| 15:19 |
|
[particle] |
249:In particular, we now generally use C<for> to iterate filehandles. |
| 15:20 |
|
moritz |
even thoug I decleared $line |
| 15:20 |
|
moritz |
wtf? |
| 15:20 |
|
[particle] |
i may have the syntax wrong, i haven't programmed perl 6 in a while |
| 15:23 |
|
allbery_b |
I think it's =$file.say |
| 15:23 |
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| 15:24 |
|
[particle] |
allbery_b: i think he wants to expand on it, so that optimization isn't desired |
| 15:55 |
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svnbot6 |
r15325 | audreyt++ | * Remove debug warnings for ~~:T etc. |
| 17:08 |
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devbot6 |
planet6: Audrey Tang: Various uses of embedded Perl 5. <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/200[…]ious_uses_of.html> |
| 17:43 |
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svnbot6 |
r15326 | lwall++ | Added configurable tabstop. |
| 19:24 |
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svnbot6 |
r15327 | lwall++ | Y -> Z, XX -> X |
| 19:33 |
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specbot6 |
r13700 | larry++ | More Y XX -> Z X clarifications |
| 19:53 |
|
specbot6 |
r13700 | larry++ | Now allow "constant $?TABSTOP = 4" syntax for user to set compiler variables. |
| 19:54 |
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jrockway |
multiple personalities :) |
| 19:57 |
|
TimToady |
yeah, he's really crazy |
| 19:58 |
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TimToady |
I mean, we're really crazy |
| 19:59 |
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jisom |
you don't have a timtoady commit bit? |
| 19:59 |
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TimToady |
no, that would be confusing |
| 20:00 |
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* [particle] |
r15328 | particle | committed timtoady |
| 20:01 |
|
* TimToady |
thinks trying to confuse TimToady is redundant... |
| 20:02 |
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jrockway |
svnbot should write (larry|lwall|TimToady)++ |
| 20:02 |
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jrockway |
or maybe $TimToady |
| 20:03 |
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TimToady |
karma (larry|lwall|TimToady) |
| 20:03 |
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jabbot |
TimToady: (larry|lwall|TimToady) has neutral karma |
| 20:06 |
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CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun |
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specbot6 |
r13701 | larry++ | Change hardwired 8 to $?TABSTOP // 8 for heredocs |
| 20:09 |
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TimToady |
why can't he make up his mind...PERL 6 is never going to be finished at this rate... |
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* TimToady |
wanders off to get temporarily wetter |
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rindolf |
Hi all. |
| 20:17 |
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rindolf |
Can someone unban n=shlomi bzq-88-153-132-253.red.bezeqint.net) from #perl? |
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specbot6 |
r13702 | larry++ | typo from aaroncrane++ |
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| 22:06 |
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svnbot6 |
r15328 | lwall++ | More X/Z fixes |
| 22:06 |
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svnbot6 |
r15328 | lwall++ | t/operators/precedence.t was using old precedence table |
| 22:07 |
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cj |
TimToady: does that mean we're done? |
| 22:08 |
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cj |
oh, wait... I'd probably have to contribute something more than my name to the AUTHORS file to be considered part of we |
| 22:08 |
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TimToady |
what is this "done" concept that you mention? |
| 22:08 |
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cj |
one day I will have infinte time and contribute to all of the fun things |
| 22:08 |
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cj |
TimToady: something I heard about at a conference somewhere |
| 22:09 |
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TimToady |
sure it wasn't a steak grilling conference? |
| 22:09 |
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cj |
might have been. come to thing of it, I think it was |
| 22:09 |
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cj |
s/g/k/ of course |
| 22:10 |
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tene |
cj: "mikht"? |
| 22:12 |
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cj |
tene: I was afraid nobody would know what I was talking about |
| 22:12 |
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TimToady |
the problem with waiting till you have infinite time is that you never get to the fun things... |
| 22:13 |
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TimToady |
eat dessert first, and all that... |
| 22:13 |
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cj |
TimToady: naughty! |
| 22:13 |
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TimToady |
sweets for the sweet, and naughts for the naughty |
| 22:14 |
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TimToady |
though I'd settle for Knott's |
| 22:14 |
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cj |
any of your spawn still attending school up here? |
| 22:14 |
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TimToady |
Geneva |
| 22:15 |
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cj |
tell her she should stop by for lunch some time! I'm in the big black building |
| 22:15 |
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TimToady |
k |
| 22:15 |
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| 22:15 |
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cj |
18th floor, ask for cjcoll@ |
| 22:15 |
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TimToady |
the one the space needle came in? |
| 22:15 |
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[particle] |
the one the giant beaver has been eating? |
| 22:16 |
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cj |
TimToady: I think it was built a couple of decades after the space needle |
| 22:16 |
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TimToady |
does it have a brass dancer in front? |
| 22:17 |
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TimToady |
that looks like it's slipping on a banana peel? |
| 22:17 |
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cj |
not that I know of... maybe if it's very very small... |
| 22:17 |
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cj |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Center |
| 22:19 |
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TimToady |
nah, this was a completely rectangular building older than that. |
| 22:20 |
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| 22:22 |
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TimToady |
it's the black building you can see behind the Wash Mutual tower in this picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W[…]gton_Mutual_Tower |
| 22:22 |
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lambdabot |
Title: Washington Mutual Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
| 22:23 |
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TimToady |
I suppose it could be the same building the beaver was gnawing on, now that I think back... |
| 22:26 |
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TimToady |
anyway, it was built about the same time as the Space Needle, and was about the same size, so we called it the box the Space Needle came in. |
| 22:26 |
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TimToady |
used to be the tallest building downtown. |
| 22:32 |
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| 22:34 |
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cj |
TimToady: oh, one caveat: I work from home on Fridays |
| 22:36 |
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cj |
and although we'd be happy to have her visit for lunch, we live in Everett ;) |
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| 23:27 |
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DebolazX |
Out of curiosity, has anyone made any perl6/ruby comparison? Adventages/disaventages compared to each other, etc. |
| 23:29 |
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jrockway |
what are you looking for in particular? |
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| 23:30 |
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moritz |
perl6 is cooler, ruby is fully implemented ;) |
| 23:30 |
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DebolazX |
Well, I am curious about what (perceived) adventages are with either language.. one thing that has annoyed me with ruby is the lack of variable declaration. |
| 23:31 |
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DebolazX |
I'm not trying to be onesided here, there are things in perl 6 I don't like either. But I have seen several comparisons between perl 5 and ruby, so I was curious if there were any between perl 6 and ruby. |
| 23:32 |
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allbery_b |
I think perl6 needs to settle down more first |
| 23:33 |
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jrockway |
i would see no reason to use ruby after perl6 has stabilized |
| 23:34 |
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specbot6 |
r13703 | larry++ | Clarify that a named argument may name either the label or the variable name. |
| 23:34 |
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jrockway |
the ruby folks are thinking about using parrot to run ruby |
| 23:34 |
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jrockway |
so it will be the same VM (possibly) |
| 23:34 |
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Limbic_Region |
jrockway - then you aren't thinking very polylingual |
| 23:34 |
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TimToady |
and the pugs folks are thinking about using ruby to run Perl 6. :) |
| 23:34 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: ruby may incorporate all of the things learned from perl6 by the time perl6 stablizes :) |
| 23:34 |
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Limbic_Region |
jrockway - the advantage of the parrot based perl 6 implementation is that you will get to use libraries from any language that target parrot |
| 23:34 |
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TimToady |
well, we already know they're borrowing -> |
| 23:34 |
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jrockway |
unlikely; python 3000 is as "vaporish" as perl6 |
| 23:34 |
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jrockway |
i don't keep up on ruby much |
| 23:35 |
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jrockway |
ruby and python both have neat features that i would like to see, but not enough neat features to switch |
| 23:35 |
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jrockway |
and throw away the CPAN and years of perl experience :) |
| 23:35 |
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jrockway |
haskell OTOH i quite like, and it will tide me over until perl6 is real |
| 23:35 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: what do you mean "switch"? I program in perl. I program in php. I program in python. I soon will program in ruby. These are not mutually exclusive things :-) |
| 23:36 |
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jrockway |
no, but why bother (is what i ask myself) |
| 23:36 |
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jrockway |
why write something in ruby when i can do it 3x faster in perl |
| 23:36 |
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jrockway |
it's the same end result |
| 23:36 |
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jrockway |
which is why i don't really care too much about the programming language holy wars |
| 23:36 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: But the journey is different |
| 23:36 |
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jrockway |
it's what you do, not how you do it |
| 23:36 |
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PerlJam |
And it's the journey that's often most important. |
| 23:37 |
|
PerlJam |
(now, if you're just interested in getting the results, then obviously you chose the method that works best for you) |
| 23:37 |
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jrockway |
how so |
| 23:38 |
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DebolazX |
In my experience, perl does most real world jobs faster than most of the other languages, in part thanks to the enormous CPAN. But disregarding external factors like that, ruby does seem awfully tempting. |
| 23:38 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: It's like a C programmer asking "Why would I ever use LISP?" There are lessons that LISP teaches quite well as compared to C. There are some lessons that ruby can teach you. |
| 23:38 |
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jrockway |
i guess writing something in ruby or python is the same journey for me |
| 23:38 |
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jrockway |
haskell feels differnt to me |
| 23:38 |
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PerlJam |
(At the very least think of it as a case of "hold your friends close, but your enemies closer" :-) |
| 23:38 |
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jrockway |
so in that sense, i enjoy the journey |
| 23:38 |
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jrockway |
but i don't think i would enjoy ruby |
| 23:38 |
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jrockway |
it's not *that* different from perl, that's all |
| 23:39 |
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jrockway |
PHP is an interesting journey, however |
| 23:39 |
|
jrockway |
i've learned that the perfect programming language will be the complete opposite of it :) |
| 23:40 |
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moritz |
jrockway: when you've done enough CGI-stuff in perl, PHP just feels .. ugly ;) |
| 23:40 |
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jrockway |
yup, my current job is all PHP (not for much longer though) |
| 23:41 |
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PerlJam |
my current job is PHP too. |
| 23:41 |
|
PerlJam |
prior to this job, I wrote some bit of perl code practically every day for years and years. |
| 23:41 |
|
PerlJam |
I've written maybe 10 perl programs and maybe 20 or 30 one-liners in the last 3 months. |
| 23:42 |
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jrockway |
so do you like PHP better? |
| 23:42 |
|
PerlJam |
no. |
| 23:42 |
|
jrockway |
:) |
| 23:42 |
|
moritz |
it would be suicide to admit it in #perl* ;) |
| 23:42 |
|
jrockway |
there's not much to like about it :) |
| 23:43 |
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PerlJam |
people who like php better don't have the breadth of knowledge from which to compare |
| 23:43 |
|
jrockway |
agreed |
| 23:43 |
|
jrockway |
i'm surprised it's so popular though |
| 23:43 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: and we're back to why you should learn ruby ;-) |
| 23:43 |
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moritz |
jrockway: it's an easy start, if you just know html |
| 23:44 |
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DebolazX |
jrockway: Why? It's pretty obvious why it's so popular, it's easily deployable. |
| 23:44 |
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PerlJam |
why are you surprised? PHP is the king of ubiquity and good-enough. |
| 23:44 |
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jrockway |
i'm surprised people that know better pick it (like yahoo, for example) |
| 23:44 |
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DebolazX |
As opposed to perl, requiring either the ugly CGI interface or a dedicated server. |
| 23:44 |
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jrockway |
they can hire some dude to keep mod_perl alive :) |
| 23:44 |
|
jrockway |
i'm mostly thinking about real apps |
| 23:44 |
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| 23:44 |
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jrockway |
not "joe's home page" or whatever |
| 23:44 |
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* PerlJam |
wants parrot to edge into the ubiquity market though by being in web servers *and* browsers :-) |
| 23:45 |
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DebolazX |
jrockway: But quantity implies popularity. A lot of people use it in general, so many people will use it for more advanced applications. |
| 23:45 |
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jrockway |
sure, and it's easy to find cheap PHP programmers |
| 23:45 |
|
DebolazX |
Because of the quantity. |
| 23:45 |
|
jrockway |
yup, same with java though |
| 23:45 |
|
moritz |
hey, maybe javascript on parrot could speed up mozilla & co ;) |
| 23:46 |
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jrockway |
i haven't learned ruby because i don't think it would be a fundamental change in the way i think about programming |
| 23:46 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: you're probably right about that. |
| 23:46 |
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jrockway |
haskell and functional is, which has kept my interested through the no-productivity stage :) |
| 23:46 |
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DebolazX |
I've talked to many perl developers who simply could not understand that easy deployment was a good thing, it seemed at the time the majority felt every application should be its own server. |
| 23:46 |
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jrockway |
hmm |
| 23:47 |
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CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun |
| 23:47 |
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jrockway |
i PAR up my perl apps, run svc -t appname, and i'm done |
| 23:47 |
|
jrockway |
that's much easier than the various issues I have to fight with in PHP |
| 23:47 |
|
jrockway |
php.ini, etc. |
| 23:47 |
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PerlJam |
DebolazX: see RoR and Jifty :-) |
| 23:47 |
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jrockway |
catalyst :) |
| 23:47 |
|
DebolazX |
RoR/Jifty/Catalyst isn't easily deployable compared to PHP. |
| 23:48 |
|
DebolazX |
For the poor soab admin running the public hosting service most people use. |
| 23:48 |
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jrockway |
i don't think easy deployment is worth the random major security problems, the lack of a sane language, no modules, etc. |
| 23:48 |
|
jrockway |
i guess that's the php culture |
| 23:49 |
|
jrockway |
"do most of the work, screw getting it right" |
| 23:49 |
|
jrockway |
compare DateTime to php's date/time functions |
| 23:49 |
|
jrockway |
datetime is bloated because date/time is a hard problem |
| 23:49 |
|
jrockway |
however, it's easy if you don't think about it |
| 23:49 |
|
jrockway |
and the bugs probably won't be *too* bad |
| 23:49 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: such things didn't hinder Microsoft and they certainly won't hinder php. |
| 23:49 |
|
jrockway |
so PHP wins |
| 23:49 |
|
jrockway |
yeah, i'm not sure i really care about PHP's success |
| 23:50 |
|
jrockway |
i'll have a nice Perl job in the future, and there's enough activity in the perl community to keep me very interested |
| 23:50 |
|
jrockway |
and that's all i need really |
| 23:50 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: what's the perl job? |
| 23:50 |
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DebolazX |
jrockway: I'm not saying PHP is great as a language. I'm not saying there aren't various horrible things about its implementation. I'm saying that it beat perl on quantity through easy deployment. It was leaps and bounds better than CGI for most people, and there were few alternatives. |
| 23:50 |
|
PerlJam |
(and can you work parrot/perl6 into it? ;-) |
| 23:50 |
|
jrockway |
PerlJam: well, i'm looking at 2 right now |
| 23:51 |
|
jrockway |
one is data warehousing, the other is working with $UNNAMED_MEMBER_OF_PERL6_COMMUNITY |
| 23:51 |
|
jrockway |
details after i make a decision :) |
| 23:51 |
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PerlJam |
jrockway: depending on the latter, that's the one I'd choose. |
| 23:51 |
|
jrockway |
yeah, the data warehousing one would be cool |
| 23:52 |
|
jrockway |
but they're making me sign away my life, which scares me |
| 23:52 |
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PerlJam |
"We own your soul" sign and date below. |
| 23:52 |
|
jrockway |
anything that's not PHP is worth it, though, IMHO |
| 23:52 |
|
jrockway |
i'm just not very productive with PHP, and that bugs me |
| 23:53 |
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PerlJam |
I've actually experienced a little of that in this PHP job. But my productivity has improved the more I use it. |
| 23:54 |
|
PerlJam |
The thing that bugs me most about PHP right now is the lack of mnemonic cues. |
| 23:54 |
|
jrockway |
i miss Test::More and having a framework |
| 23:54 |
|
jrockway |
i like catalyst; not using it seems mildly insane to me |
| 23:57 |
|
jrockway |
and unfortunately i'm getting the urge more and more to rewrite parts in haskell :) |
| 23:57 |
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jrockway |
i remember an hour long meeting about how to represent things like "Winter 2007" in the application |
| 23:57 |
|
jrockway |
data Term a = Spring a | Summer a | Fall a | Winter a deriving (Read, Show, Eq) and we're done :) |
| 23:58 |
|
jrockway |
unfortunately we now have an entire class, filled with random PHP and database workarounds |
| 23:58 |
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jrockway |
ah, i have to go... going to miss the train :) |
| 23:58 |
|
* jrockway |
& |
