Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 putter pugs, which has the only full one (kp6 being a runner up), wont share all its info (particularly class decls).
00:00 audreyt putter: perl6::Bar is fine.
00:00 lambdabot audreyt: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
00:00 putter which has been a dev bottleneck for... just about two years now.
00:00 putter re fine, :)
00:00 putter bottleneck might be gone by itself real soon now.
00:00 audreyt re class decls, that's because not pugs itself know about it
00:01 audreyt (no introspection. aka, no MO, hence no MO dump)
00:01 putter but doing an opp and grammar based might be good practice, drive the spec, and make 6.err, the one after next, easier to do.
00:01 audreyt re 6.283, yes. critical, even.
00:01 putter re itself, indeed :)
00:02 audreyt re MO hacking, will do that as long as disk0s2: 0xe0030005 (UNDEFINED). goes away
00:02 audreyt need to spend ~2hr running ddrescue
00:02 audreyt since it's creeped into ~/.svk/ area and hence interfere with hacking
00:02 audreyt *as soon as
00:02 putter so, given the perhaps questionable insanity of "let's write a new p6 parser", a next question is
00:03 putter re disk, eep
00:03 putter lol
00:03 audreyt mm "questional insanity" :) anyway, I'll resurface after ddrescue is done
00:03 audreyt meanwhile enjoy :) &
00:04 putter (image of audreyt watching disk progressively die, but thinking "no, it hasn't hit /svk yet, so it's not important", and goes back to hacking...;)
00:04 putter thus the lol
00:04 putter good luck
00:05 putter so given an attempt to write a full p6 parser, a next question is how to test.  to judge progress, validated design decisions, determine success, etc.
00:06 putter While you need to track sub arity to do a basic parse (basic as in no BEGIN, etc), I think that's about it.
00:07 putter So rather than trying to create a runtime to go with the parser, one could output PIL instead.
00:07 putter Could check it against pugs -CPIL output, but that kind of game tends to get messy, as non-essential details complicate comparison.
00:08 putter But "PIL2JS passes test using new parser's PIL instead of pugs's parser's PIL" is a good proxy for "your new parser is working".
00:17 putter a new parser could certainly be written in haskell.  should eventually (or perhaps just p6).
00:17 putter isnt p6 now because I don't trust pugs (without audreyt at hand) to not have gotcha path blocking bugs.
00:19 putter but hs vs p5, the regex engine I have the greatest short-term hope for is p5.  hmm, but with p5 now linked into pugs, that's mostly a non-argument.
00:20 putter part of the p5 vs hs thought is that the p5-based components of pugs seem to have drawn more developers and developed comunities more than the hs component has.
00:20 putter eg Moose
00:21 putter end of first level response. ;)
00:23 ofer0 joined perl6
00:25 Limbic_Region joined perl6
00:26 putter s/-CPIL/-CPIL1/   -CPIL1-PERL5 being used by PIL2JS (I think?).  -CPIL1-JSON or -CPIL1-YAML perhaps your best bet ‎if you want to try your hand at writing a new backend.
00:26 putter That means *you*.  :)
00:27 putter (for every/and(@you))
00:27 putter s/and/any
00:29 putter It's not an enormous task.  PIL2JS and PIL-Run were sortof working in just a day or three.  With PIL2JS to serve as a prototype, if you keep the same design (a good idea), its basically a transliteration exercise.
00:29 putter end of advertisement
00:33 putter cd  perl5/PIL2JS/; ./runjs.pl -e 'say "Hello, World!"'   ... doesn't say anything. :(
00:33 putter @seen iblech
00:33 lambdabot I haven't seen iblech.
00:42 putter hmm... very old spidermonkey
00:46 ashleyb joined perl6
00:48 Gothmog_ 0
00:48 Gothmog_ Whoops.
00:54 mjk joined perl6
00:56 explorer joined perl6
00:57 gaal putter: you moosed?
00:58 gaal I'm back from a few drinks w/ friends from around and abroad so I'm thinking as straight as my antlers but... elk?
01:00 putter lol
01:00 putter laugh, groan, etc
01:01 gaal was funny, but we were just looking for a place and accidentally landed on a pick-up bar so was v loud and smokey etc.
01:01 gaal I'm about to hit the shower and sleep
01:02 xerox Hit the shower, hit the sack. Two frags in a row.
01:02 putter I was going to ask about the new tree, and where to find it.  but I decided the old tree in the back yard would make a better subject, since I could more easily compare it to the new parser's tree sketches.
01:02 gaal Pugs.Val
01:02 gaal and Pugs.Val.*
01:03 putter danke
01:03 gaal some of it is active already
01:03 gaal also some possibly outdated "rest of it, not yet transcrivbed" is in CaptInternals.hs
01:03 gaal s/t// maybe
01:04 gaal however, be advised audreyt has some sekritt plan to simplify the basic scheme
01:04 putter ok.  PIL2JS isnt working for me, so the old tree may not... fly doesnt seem the right word but...
01:04 gaal ie: newVal currently is based on a variant moose of IIRC 5 subtypes
01:05 gaal native, uh something else immutable I guess, mutable (==STM), external (==IO)
01:05 putter oooo, secret simplicity plans.  complexity seems to be the thing which always stops "try to take over the world" projects.
01:05 gaal the first to are represnted by rank-1 simple |variants like a sane haskell programmer would do
01:06 gaal however as everybody knows, there's not really such a thing (!ExSx) as a sane Haskell programmer,
01:06 Grrrr joined perl6
01:06 putter ("i didn't say it")
01:06 gaal the third three variants are existentially quantified
01:07 putter k
01:07 gaal "to be or not to be? It depends, what monad are you in, for starters?"
01:07 putter hmm.... stm, the death of alternate backends?
01:07 gaal hmm i dunno
01:07 putter lol
01:08 gaal it was a reaosnable transcription of the prexsiting, at the time, L<S06/"Mutable Types">
01:08 putter ooo, oo, maybe if I write an arrow library for p6, noone will ever use monads in 6!  oops, evil plan revield.
01:08 gaal so ask TimToady -- I don't think he was thinking specifically STM when he enumerated these types but maybe he was?
01:09 putter k
01:09 putter lots of delightful reading pointers.  thanks! :)
01:09 gaal or oh, maybe no, regualr mutable  <=> IO types is an audreyt distinction
01:09 gaal not sure if it's even reflected in the S06 enumerations
01:10 gaal sorry too drink to look up now
01:10 gaal *u
01:10 putter cheers, tnx
01:10 gaal yeah that shower.... mm&
01:11 gaal oh also another pointer... an advantage of using existentials as they are layed out in this newVal thing is "open types"
01:11 gaal @google rafl open types
01:11 lambdabot http://bugs.xmms2.xmms.se/view.php?id=1031
01:12 lambdabot Title: 0001031: No mime type reported for files in the medialib. - Mantis
01:12 gaal @google ralf open types
01:12 lambdabot http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1140352&amp;dl=ACM&amp;coll=&amp;CFID=15151515&amp;CFTOKEN=6184618
01:12 lambdabot Title: Open data types and open functions
01:12 gaal (oops)
01:12 gaal yeah, that one
01:12 gaal the idea is code organization, you can define a type in some Hs compilation unit other than where the base Val type was mentioend
01:13 gaal and augment it
01:13 gaal ie., this is (also) a Hs implementation/engineering decision
01:13 gaal ok where's that shower zz&
01:16 avar gaal: I was looking at your smoke server slides and was wondering about ripping the smoke serv client script out as Module::Install::Smoke
01:17 avar smokeserver 'http://..../serv'; # In Makefile.PL
01:18 avar I wonder what cpan testers use, you could optionally submit stuff to them
01:18 avar "Do you want to upload smokes along with make test [y/n]"
01:24 * avar sleep &
01:25 gaal avar: look at Chimps on CPAN and talk w/ obra -- they use this in production AFAIK
01:25 CardinalNumber joined perl6
01:25 gaal putter: one last thing -- re: portability and STM
01:26 gaal you can think at the very least of the VMut / VExt distinction as a helpful boon for non-Hs backends, like so:
01:26 gaal condent { say "oops, I shouldn't run" }
01:26 svnbot6 r15336 | putter++ | READTOO - added new (duplicate;) entry for "Open data types and open functions".  Can be deduped later.  For now, keeps file active and builds interest.
01:26 gaal -- this is a runtime exception in haskell backend for free
01:27 * putter listens attentively....
01:27 gaal how do backends w/o natural STM know that say is unsafe fro STM?
01:27 TimToady *contend
01:27 gaal well, they don't, except hey, helpfully perhaps non-STM thingies in the AST are marked as VExt :)
01:28 gaal so at the very least this is useful documentation
01:28 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
01:28 avar gaal: ohh, awesome
01:28 putter ah
01:28 TimToady and the thread continuation monad may provide similar for thread vs event issues
01:29 TimToady assuming we take the approach of http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~lipeng/homepage/unify.html
01:29 lambdabot Title: Unifying events and threads
01:29 gaal in short (you folks)++ and I shall now take my leave etc.
01:29 gaal & fer real
01:30 putter back.  thanks gaal!
01:32 mako132 joined perl6
01:35 TimToady someone else mentioned it first a while back here...
01:35 svnbot6 r15337 | putter++ | READTOO - added "A language-based approach to unifying events and threads".
01:35 putter ?
01:39 TimToady hmm, must have been somewhere else I saw it first...colabti only sees your new entry.
01:40 TimToady maybe it was in the chatterbox
01:40 allbery_b it was mentioned here, IIRC
01:43 TimToady yeah, audreyt, http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2007-02-09,Fri#l363
01:43 lambdabot Title: #perl6 2007-02-09,Fri, http://tinyurl.com/243zsh
01:47 putter ok.  I notice in READTOO's log masak correcting "credit" and date of mention.  err, it's just a slush file created because I was tired of having to grovel back through colabti.  the date was just included for staleness, and the who, I don't know, randomness.  just in case you wanted to discuss it.
01:47 svnbot6 r15338 | lwall++ | correctly ascribe "unify" first mention to audreyt
01:47 svnbot6 r15338 | lwall++ | some random cleanups in P6STD
01:48 putter bemused, putter goes back to hacking
01:49 putter though, perhaps the thing is to *add* mentioned by lines, each time its mentioned, and any extra links (and dates?)
01:58 putter @audreyt Was test-js actually working for you back around -r14356?  It happily runs for me, but has 01-sanity failures. :/
01:58 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
01:58 putter @tell audreyt Was test-js actually working for you back around -r14356?  It happily runs for me, but has 01-sanity failures. :/
01:58 lambdabot Consider it noted.
02:02 putter fixing PIL2JS is already a ticket.
02:04 putter probably shouldnt have spent good hacking time on it, but if it had worked, that would have been fun.
02:05 putter there is a call PIIL2JS from p5 with callbacks embedding existent.  so could easily set PIL2JS up to accept PIL trees created by new p5 code.
02:06 putter could get "say 3" parsed, ast built, PIL emitted, and run on PIL2JS, in no time. ;)
02:12 putter good night all &
02:34 Schwern joined perl6
02:55 deq`_ joined perl6
03:03 svnbot6 r15339 | lwall++ | P6STD syntax cleanups
03:23 weinig is now known as weinig|away
03:25 araujo joined perl6
03:36 bsb joined perl6
03:59 GabrielVieira joined perl6
04:04 devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: ddrescue'ing <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/02/ddrescueing.html>
04:14 justatheory joined perl6
04:21 Psyche^ joined perl6
04:34 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
04:42 devbot6 planet6: Luke Palmer: Dwimmery sanity <http://use.perl.org/~luqui/journal/32489?from=rss>
04:43 kanru joined perl6
04:58 nperez joined perl6
05:08 Psyche^ joined perl6
05:21 svnbot6 r15340 | lwall++ | Getting P6std runnable by pugs by postprocessing.
05:24 nipra joined perl6
05:25 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
05:36 Gothmog_ joined perl6
05:42 svnbot6 r15341 | lwall++ | cheat Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm | pugs -CPIL1-YAML now succeeds
05:45 colberto joined perl6
05:45 Eidolos joined perl6
05:49 TimToady well, it succeeds in the sense that it doesn't blow up...
05:49 TimToady There are still lots of infelicites, such as the fact that only one of each multi regex shows up...
05:50 TimToady which is likely something the "cheat" script will have to deal with anyway for bootstrapping.
06:13 BooK joined perl6
06:33 jisom joined perl6
06:34 revdiablo joined perl6
06:34 jisom left perl6
06:34 jisom joined perl6
08:03 BooK joined perl6
08:08 elmex joined perl6
08:33 drupek12212157 joined perl6
08:59 jisom_ joined perl6
09:00 rindolf joined perl6
09:00 rindolf Hi all.
09:00 lambdabot rindolf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:30 rindolf moritz: here?
09:36 Kattana joined perl6
09:59 moritz rindolf: yes, now ;)
10:01 rindolf moritz: I fixed the broken link.
10:02 moritz rindolf: ok ;)
10:02 rindolf moritz: thanks for reporting it.
10:02 moritz rindolf: np ;)
10:02 rindolf I'm nearing r1000 in my homesite's repository.
10:06 iblechbot joined perl6
10:19 chris2 joined perl6
10:21 bsb left perl6
10:31 pulqe joined perl6
10:55 larsen_ joined perl6
10:57 turrepurre joined perl6
11:26 mj41 joined perl6
11:45 Eidolos joined perl6
11:54 elmex joined perl6
12:12 wilx joined perl6
12:14 CardinalNumber joined perl6
12:18 sunnavy joined perl6
12:23 TimToady joined perl6
12:25 larsen_ joined perl6
12:30 larsen__ joined perl6
12:32 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
12:47 larsen_ joined perl6
12:51 Belaf joined perl6
12:57 larsen_ joined perl6
13:01 Psyche^ joined perl6
13:10 Kattana joined perl6
13:17 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
13:19 meppl gute nacht
13:22 CardinalNumber joined perl6
13:34 dmq joined perl6
13:40 ayrnieu joined perl6
13:41 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
14:10 wilx` joined perl6
14:25 buetow joined perl6
14:33 svnbot6 r15342 | kudra++ | Content added
14:39 wilx` is now known as wilx
14:43 devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: Weekly Perl 6 mailing list summary for 29 January - 3 February, 2007 <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/02/weekly_perl_6_m_1.html>
14:50 Limbic_Region joined perl6
14:51 shay_ joined perl6
14:52 shay_ is now known as shay
14:54 larsen_ joined perl6
15:15 rindolf joined perl6
15:28 cookys joined perl6
15:29 rindolf Hi all.
15:29 Limbic_Region salutations rindolf
15:29 rindolf Hi Limbic_Region
15:29 rindolf Limbic_Region: what's up?
15:29 Limbic_Region me unfortunately
15:30 Limbic_Region I think I would rather be in bed sleeping
15:30 Limbic_Region you?
15:32 rindolf Limbic_Region: well...
15:33 rindolf Limbic_Region: I added Google AdSense to my DocBook/XML-generated essays and to my presentations.
15:33 Limbic_Region I saw that in #perl
15:33 rindolf Limbic_Region: and prepared a presentation about the Joel Test for Python-IL.
15:33 * Limbic_Region is pretty ignorant of adsense
15:34 Limbic_Region well, it sounds like you are being productive - that's more than I can say :-)
15:34 rindolf Limbic_Region: more than you can say about yourself?
15:34 Limbic_Region correct
15:35 rindolf Limbic_Region: OK.
15:36 dmq juerd?
15:38 dmq summon juerd
15:38 dmq :-)
15:50 putter joined perl6
15:54 putter @tell audreyt Could the pugs backend be driven by externally generated yaml?  Ie, do you have a feel for how fragile it is/isn't?  How much implicit/idiomatic dependency is present.  I was thinking of exposing loadPreludePC...
15:54 lambdabot Consider it noted.
15:55 SamB putter: what do you suppose is the best way to find out?
15:55 SamB btw, yaml seems fiendishly complicated...
15:55 putter Ask audreyt. :)
15:55 * SamB was thinking "try it"
15:57 * moritz was thinking "let somebody else do the work" ;)
15:59 putter re "someone else", yes, delegate questions to someone who can answer without thinking hard, rather than spending days generating a not-as-good answer. :)
15:59 putter re trying it, let's see...
15:59 moritz putter: I fully agree ;)
16:00 ofer0 joined perl6
16:02 putter Hmm, I was thinking it non-trivial to try/play, but.... if one hardcoded loadPreludePC to load a second file in addition to the prelude, if it worked at all, one could then  dump something simple in the file and see if it showed up....
16:03 putter (mutating or replacing the existing prelude appearing much more problematic alternatives)
16:03 putter SamB++
16:04 putter (though it's still mission creep :( :)
16:04 putter bbl (or tomorrow) &
16:06 allbery_b joined perl6
16:33 shlomif joined perl6
16:40 turrepurre joined perl6
16:50 larsen__ joined perl6
16:58 larsen___ joined perl6
17:03 [M]erk joined perl6
17:03 larsen_ joined perl6
17:35 elmex joined perl6
17:39 rindolf joined perl6
17:39 rindolf Hi all.
17:41 rindolf How's audreyt ?
17:41 allbery_b recovering and back in circulation
17:41 rindolf allbery_b: nice. Good to hear.
17:42 allbery_b ...but will probably be <100% for a few months yet
17:43 rindolf What is the timezone of the nntp.perl.org messages? http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/2007/02/msg420778.html ?
17:43 lambdabot Title: PASS Test-Run-0.0104 OpenBSD.i386-openbsd 3.5 - nntp.perl.org, http://tinyurl.com/2sul4j
17:45 rhizo joined perl6
18:08 idiotmax joined perl6
18:18 jisom joined perl6
18:33 jferrero joined perl6
18:38 CardinalNumber joined perl6
18:54 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
19:02 explorer joined perl6
19:19 wilx joined perl6
19:20 tzoa joined perl6
19:41 rindolf miyagawa: here?
19:42 bernhard joined perl6
19:54 tzoa left perl6
19:56 SamB joined perl6
20:12 miyagawa rindolf: pong
20:12 rindolf Hi miyagawa
20:13 rindolf miyagawa: I already asked my question in #plagger
20:13 rindolf miyagawa: but I have a different problem now.
20:13 miyagawa yes, looking at it
20:42 nipra joined perl6
20:47 macli_ joined perl6
21:14 gnuvince_ joined perl6
21:21 Aankhen`` joined perl6
21:31 kanru_ joined perl6
21:39 Schwern joined perl6
21:49 GabrielVieira2 joined perl6
22:06 macroron joined perl6
22:09 macli_ joined perl6
22:25 Psyche^ joined perl6
22:28 lisppaste3 joined perl6
22:41 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
22:53 explorer joined perl6
23:06 mako132 joined perl6
23:14 Juerd dmq: pong
23:14 moritz probaply ping timeout ;)
23:15 Juerd dmq: But I'll be gone real soon; my brane hurts and I'm sleepy.
23:20 Juerd afk  # zz
23:22 Squern joined perl6
23:32 larsen_ joined perl6
23:34 GabrielVieira joined perl6
23:39 larsen__ joined perl6
23:41 ewilhelm joined perl6
23:46 __Ace__ joined perl6
23:46 __Ace__ AUTHORS:
23:47 __Ace__ " Larry Wall wrote the original version of patch." Noway? :)
23:47 jql way
23:47 jql or, if it's a legend, I can confirm it was legendary even 10 years ago. :)
23:48 __Ace__ yea, havent been updated in a while..
23:48 __Ace__ totally bugfree then eh?
23:48 jql they only ever upgrade diff. :)
23:49 __Ace__ heh
23:49 __Ace__ what does that tell us?
23:49 jql the bizzare bit is by how far diff predates patch
23:50 drbean joined perl6
23:51 * allbery_b even remembers lwall releasing patch :)
23:52 jql I was probably in kindergarten that day
23:53 BooK joined perl6

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo