Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-25

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Time Nick Message
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01:42 Digital So I was reading about perl6, and caught the nugget that one of the most functional implementations of perl6 right now is written in Haskell.
01:43 Digital Is this true? And if it is, do you think there is any chance I might find the person responsible, buy them a beer and spend the time they are drinking it heaping praise on their diseased genius?
01:44 revdiablo It's true
01:44 qmole heh yes
01:44 revdiablo Digital: You can blame/priase audreyt
01:44 revdiablo Priase, even
01:44 Digital Is there a good reason for this, or ... ?
01:44 revdiablo Praise?
01:44 qmole but if you did catch audreyt she would probably tell you 100s of people deserve praise
01:45 revdiablo It took me 3 tries to type it right, sheesh
01:45 Digital I thought Haskell was one of those teaching languages that was mathematically brilliant, elegant beyond words and completely inappropriate for getting any real work done in.
01:45 revdiablo Digital: The story goes, it started out at a project to learn Haskell by writing a toy language. Audrey chose perl 6 as the "toy language", and it blossomed from there
01:46 allbery_b haskell is quite practical once you wrap your head around it.
01:46 allbery_b but that wrapping takes some doing
01:46 Digital Can you compile haskell?
01:46 revdiablo Yep
01:46 allbery_b @where ghc
01:46 lambdabot http://haskell.org/ghc
01:46 allbery_b @version
01:46 lambdabot lambdabot 4p509, GHC 6.6 (OpenBSD i386)
01:47 lambdabot darcs get http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/lambdabot
01:47 Digital Interesting.  
01:48 Digital Is it trolling to ask you people, who clearly know more about me than perl 6 (because I know only a little), what your opinion is of the idea that perhaps perl 6 is suffering from epic second-system effect?
01:48 qmole of course darcs is another example of 'real world' haskell :)
01:48 allbery_b haskell's actually quite nice for writing languages; the Reader monad encapsulates much of the hard work in managing variable scope, for example
01:48 revdiablo Digital: It could be trolling. That depends on what you're aiming for with the question. =)
01:48 allbery_b @quote TimToady second-system
01:48 lambdabot No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
01:49 allbery_b hm, thought someone saved that quote
01:49 revdiablo Digital: I don't think the idea is right, but I can see how it would seem like that
01:49 allbery_b @quote done.right
01:49 lambdabot No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
01:49 allbery_b feh
01:49 Digital rev: Nothing, really, that's just my opinion and I wonder what people in the know think of it.
01:49 Digital From the outside it looks like perl 5 was pretty nice, and now perl 6 has been in development forever and we keep hearing about the jillion new features it will have.
01:49 allbery_b anyway, TimToady has been known to comment that perl6 is the second system effect done righht
01:50 revdiablo Digital: Well, it's a fair assessment
01:50 Digital and it makes me wonder what was so fundamentally broken with perl 5 that warranted a complete mulligan on the whole language rather than some evolutionary changes stretched out over time.
01:50 allbery_b actually p6 is getting firmed down at this point with an eye on releasing it
01:50 revdiablo Digital: Time will tell, I guess.
01:51 silug Dig: you should grab pugs and try it out.  it's nice.
01:51 revdiablo Digital: Perl 5 has a long and ugly history. The language has a lot of baggage. It works fine, but all the edge cases have created lots of nooks and crannies for "evolutionary change" to fall and break its ankles.
01:51 revdiablo Keep in mind, I love Perl 5. But to ignore its problems is not realistic
01:51 Digital rev: it sounds like the fix to that is dropping the crap rather than adding a bunch more. ;)
01:52 revdiablo Digital: Yeah, a bunch of crap in different directions, though. Like I said, I think time will tell. Personally, I am optimistic about Perl 6
01:52 allbery_b one thing perhaps not obvious from the current specs, although starting to become so finally, is that quite a lot of what's "added" will actually live in modules
01:52 allbery_b (and likely won't exist immediately)
01:54 Digital What would you say the number one rad feature of perl 6 is?
01:54 Digital @faq
01:54 lambdabot The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
01:54 jql does it have to work now, or just be proposed? :)
01:54 Patterner Strange Operators :)
01:55 Digital Hey, jql.  Are you writing a perl6qt?
01:55 revdiablo Number one? Oh, I don't know. One thing I really like is the object system. And the type system seems nice. And the syntax cleanups. Oh, that's more than one. =)
01:55 jql I took a stab at it 3 years ago, but I recognized then that Parrot was flawed
01:55 jql perl6 still gives me much hope, though
01:55 jql after all, perl6 can already run PerlQt
01:55 jql well, pugs
01:55 Digital I suppose that's true.
01:55 silug last time i tried to build parrot, it wouldn't cooperate.  i should try it again.
01:56 Digital The reason I was trying to get the bot to tell me where to find a FAQ was to find out if perl6 was going to be fully backwards-compatible.
01:56 revdiablo Not at the source level
01:56 Digital Er, what other level is there in perl?
01:56 silug it's not, but there are ways to get it to do perl5-ish things (like regular expressions)
01:57 allbery_b that's not entirely accurate
01:57 revdiablo Digital: Pugs can run perl 5 code by embedding the perl 5 runtime, for example
01:57 Digital I would hope the newest version of the Practical Extraction and Report Language would maintain full support for regular expressions.
01:57 revdiablo Digital: So the perl 6 syntax is not the same, but one can use perl 5 modules, etc
01:57 jql depends on your definition of full
01:58 revdiablo Perl 6 has a new syntax for regular expressions, too. They're called rules.
01:58 Digital I hope they still look like line noise, there's nothing I enjoy more than writing a long, inscrutable and hopelessly unmaintainable sequence of slashes and shifted symbol characters.
01:58 allbery_b ?eval my $a = 5; { use 5; print "$a\n" }
01:58 evalbot_r15335 is now known as evalbot_r15342
01:58 evalbot_r15342 1.0
01:59 jql lol
01:59 allbery_b I don't think that's embeddinga  runtime, I think that's just switching parsers on the fly
01:59 revdiablo allbery_b: I thought it embeds perl5 runtime right now?
02:00 jql Digital: Perl6 does try to introduce bracket-reform in regular expressions. (?:) becomes [], and (?everything-else) and [] becomes <>
02:07 allbery_b just checked my last buildlog after getting lost in the makefiles... don't see the perl5 core being linked in
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02:15 revdiablo http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2​007/02/various_uses_of.html
02:15 lambdabot Title: Pugs: Various uses of embedded Perl 5.
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07:49 allbery_b ?eval 1
07:49 evalbot_r15342 1
07:55 tene ?eval %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); $v = 'omg'; %h<b> := $v; %h.perl.say; %h<b>.say
07:55 evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[{("a" => "x"), ("b" => "y"), ("c" => "z")}␤omg␤] Bool::True
07:55 tene ?eval %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); $v = 'omg'; %h<b> := $v; %h.yaml.say; %h<b>.say
07:55 evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[--- ␤? a␤: x␤␤? b␤: y␤␤? c␤: z␤␤␤omg␤] Bool::True
07:56 tene .perl and .yaml aren't smart about rebinding elements of hashes.
07:57 allbery_b hm.  looks like a candidate for a new test, if it isn't already
07:59 allbery_b actually I find myself wondering what that should do
07:59 allbery_b (:= vs. = on a hash element that is)
08:00 tene allbery_b: t/operators/binding/hashes.t
08:03 allbery_b ah, yeh, I get it
08:05 * allbery_b will have to see what that test looks like in his running smoke
08:06 tene the issue isn't with the binding, though, it's with .perl and .yaml
08:06 allbery_b is it?  or is it with %hash?  that's what I want to see
08:08 tene In my test case there, %h<b> has the right data, as confirmed by t/operators/binding/hashes.t, but .perl and .yaml on it show the value before the rebinding
08:09 allbery_b ?eval my %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); my $v = 'foo'; $h<b> = $v; %h.values.say
08:09 evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[xyz␤] Bool::True
08:09 allbery_b ding!
08:10 allbery_b oops
08:10 allbery_b ?eval my %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); my $v = 'foo'; $h<b> := $v; %h.values.say
08:10 evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[xyz␤] Bool::True
08:10 allbery_b hm, actually the first one suggests oddness too
08:10 tene Huh.
08:11 allbery_b something's generally wrong with hashes accessed as a whole like that
08:14 allbery_b ?eval %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); $v = 'omg'; %h<b> = $v; %h.perl.say; %h<b>.say
08:14 evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[{("a" => "x"), ("b" => "omg"), ("c" => "z")}␤omg␤] Bool::True
08:14 allbery_b hm, it gets that right, though
08:14 allbery_b peculiar
08:15 allbery_b so, maybe two different bugs there :)
08:25 meppl good night
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09:10 svnbot6 r15343 | kudra++ | Summary complete
09:17 iblechbot joined perl6
09:28 svnbot6 r15344 | kudra++ | Placeholder
09:34 devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: Weekly Perl 6 mailing list summary for 4-10 February, 2007 <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/20​07/02/weekly_perl_6_m_2.html>
10:46 tene Should eval('slightly malformed yaml',:lang<yaml>); be able to cause pugs to die?
10:48 tene ?eval eval("- *a\n a: b\n- *a\n b: c\n- \n c:&a\n",:lang<yaml>)
10:48 evalbot_r15342 is now known as evalbot_r15344
10:48 evalbot_r15344 pugs: user error (moose!)␤
10:51 moritz tene: I guess it should not, just set $!
10:52 moritz tene: you should commit it as a test case
10:52 tene moritz: as I recall, tests that kill the interpreter aren't good.
10:54 moritz ?eval eval(eval("- *a\n a: b\n- *a\n b: c\n- \n c:&a\n",:lang<yaml>))
10:54 evalbot_r15344 pugs: user error (moose!)␤
10:54 tene need to quote the outer eval
10:54 moritz right
10:55 moritz ?eval eval('eval("- *a\n a: b\n- *a\n b: c\n- \n c:&a\n",:lang<yaml>)')
10:55 evalbot_r15344 pugs: user error (moose!)␤
10:55 moritz tene: read t/README for what to do with "hard parsefail"
11:00 tene Which folder should I put that test in?
11:02 moritz currently I don't see a good one, so just use xx-uncategorized
11:11 gaal that's not a very mooseful error :(
11:12 gaal you can put it in t/unspecced also; i think there's an eval_yaml test there
11:14 tene should I add it to eval_yaml.t ?
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11:18 moritz I'd say yes ;)
11:30 tene Hmm.  I guess I can't commit anymore.
11:31 moritz tene: I'll try to give a commit bit
11:32 moritz tene: just query me your email address
11:47 svnbot6 r15345 | moritz++ | disabled 10smoke patch in debian/rules to prevent build failures
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14:23 svnbot6 r15346 | kudra++ | Yet another summary
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14:38 svnbot6 r15347 | rodi++ | fixed use_ok
14:38 svnbot6 r15348 | rodi++ | fixed use_ok
14:39 svnbot6 r15349 | rodi++ | typo fix
14:42 svnbot6 r15350 | kudra++ | Marked as hidden all threads covered in previous weeks
14:43 devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: Weekly Perl 6 mailing list summary for 11-17 February, 2007 <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/20​07/02/weekly_perl_6_m_3.html>
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17:06 devbot6 dev: Ticket #8 (task updated): Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/8#comment:1>
17:09 svnbot6 r15351 | diakopter++ | closes ticket 8.  http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/8
17:09 svnbot6 r15351 | diakopter++ | Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references.
17:10 svnbot6 r15351 | diakopter++ | Removed from TASKS for redundancy.
17:10 devbot6 dev: Ticket #8 (task closed): Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/8#comment:2>
17:10 svnbot6 r15351 | diakopter++ | Sorry if some generated files are updated wrongly.
17:10 lambdabot Title: #8 (Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references.) - Pugs - Trac
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17:24 devbot6 dev: Ticket #11 (task updated): Remove all unconditional SKIP/TODO flags from t/. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/11#comment:1>
17:26 devbot6 dev: Ticket #12 (task updated): Tests directory scaling problem. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/12#comment:1>
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17:59 offby1 how does about a pugs built with PUGS_EMBED="parrot" differ from one built without that?
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17:59 offby1 i.e., what does it do with parrot?
17:59 offby1 Does it actually generate parrot byte code, and have parrot run that code, instead of interpreting the code itself?
18:01 moritz offby1: you can choose the backend with a commmand line option...
18:01 offby1 do tell
18:01 moritz offby1: and it defaults to intepreting it
18:01 moritz offby1: and if you embed parrot, you can choose parrot
18:02 offby1 moritz: so if I say something like "./pugs -Bparrot my-code.p6", it'll actually compile to parrot bytecode, then have parrot run the result, instead of interpreting it itself?!
18:02 offby1 That'd be great, because presumably it'd be a ton faster.
18:02 moritz I think so, yes
18:02 offby1 this is worth a try!
18:02 * offby1 tries
18:03 moritz offby1: but it's not so fully implemented as the haskell bakcend
18:04 offby1 hmm, strange error message:  I deliberately used a meaningless word after the -B, and expected an error along the lines of "pugs cannot find the back end named 'frobotzle', but instead I see this:
18:04 offby1 /usr/local/src/langs/pugs/pugs -Bfrobotzle anagrams.p6
18:04 offby1 pugs: user error (*** user error (*** No compatible subroutine found: "&truncate"
18:04 offby1        at ./bag.pm line 41, column 12-31)
18:04 offby1    at anagrams.p6 line 1, column 1)
18:04 offby1 not encouraging
18:04 offby1 is this one of those semi-abandoned features that isn't really meant to be used?
18:05 moritz I guess so ;)
18:05 offby1 pity
18:05 offby1 oh well
18:06 moritz well, if perl6 is meant to be implemented in Perl 6, pugs with haskell backend is enough to bootstrap it
18:06 offby1 sure
18:06 moritz ans perl6 will use parrot as its main backend
18:07 offby1 sure
18:07 offby1 in theory, one would only need run pugs once, to run the perl6-to-parrot compiler.
18:07 moritz right
18:07 offby1 then one waves goodbye to pugs, and continues development by running that compiler on parrot
18:08 offby1 so _if_ pugs is mostly meant as a way to do that bootstrap step, I can see that it wouldn't need to emit parrot code.  But something made me think it did anyway.
18:08 moritz well, I guess we wouldn't abandon pugs fully, since it will be more complete than perl6 when we bootstrap perl6
18:08 offby1 sure, but I said "in theory".
18:08 offby1 Which assumes that is complete.
18:08 moritz offby1: its optimised for fun, and different backends are fun
18:09 moritz the js backend is nice as well ;)
18:09 offby1 how would I know if the parrot backend were working?  I fear I cannot count on the lack of an obvious error message.
18:10 moritz you can run the testsuite with parrot as a backend
18:10 offby1 hmm
18:11 offby1 "make test-pir"?
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18:11 moritz or make smoke-pir
18:11 offby1 odd, it's rebuilding pugs.
18:12 moritz did you build it with parrot backend in first place?
18:12 offby1 no.
18:12 moritz the build system is a bit broken anyway...
18:12 offby1 as area all build systems.
18:12 offby1 s/area/are/
18:12 moritz when you type 'make' twice in a row, it still compiles some stuff at the second run
18:12 offby1 sure.
18:12 offby1 as do many build systems :-)
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18:13 offby1 for some reason writing correct Makefiles is really hard.
18:13 moritz and what is more disturbing: if you run 'make install' after make, it still compiles stuff - assuming you are root it pollutes your source tree with uid0-files
18:13 offby1 well, I never do "make install", for that sort of reason.
18:14 offby1 odd, it needs a perl5 module that I don't have: Module/Install/Admin.pm
18:15 moritz I use dpkg-buildpackage ;)
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18:15 offby1 I use GNU "stow"
18:15 offby1 this is odd
18:15 offby1 /usr/bin/perl -Iinc "-MExtUtils::MY" -e "MY->fixin(shift)" /usr/local/src/langs/pugs/blib/script/pugs
18:15 offby1 cd perl5/Data-Capture && perl Makefile.PL && make
18:15 offby1 Can't open  for input:
18:15 offby1 No such file or directory at /usr/share/perl5/Module/Install/Admin.pm line 135.
18:15 offby1 BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at Makefile.PL line 3.
18:15 offby1 I dunno what that means.
18:16 moritz did your read README and INSTALL and install all depencies?
18:16 offby1 I read README and INSTALL a long time ago.
18:16 offby1 I installed enough dependencies for pugs to work standalone.
18:16 offby1 but this is the first time I've tried "make test-pir".
18:17 offby1 I wonder if I need to rebuild pugs with PUGS_EMBED="parrot".  Docs aren't clear.
18:18 moritz I'm just now running 'make smoke-pir', and I'm in the smoke phase...
18:18 moritz and I did'nt rebuild with PUGS_EMBED="parrot"
18:18 offby1 :-(
18:18 offby1 same problem.
18:19 moritz I still think it's a missing perl5 modul, but I'm not sure
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18:19 offby1 Can you paste the output that starts around line 30 -- mine looks like this --
18:19 offby1 Configuring Pugs-6.2.13...
18:19 offby1 configure: Dependency pugs-fps-any: using pugs-fps-0.7 ...
18:19 offby1 perhaps that'll illuminate something
18:20 moritz perhaps, but I'm the wrong person to ask :(
18:20 offby1 well, maybe I'll see something obvious.
18:20 moritz I'm happy that pugs builds for me ;)
18:20 moritz offby1: ok, go on then
18:20 moritz but don't post it here ;))
18:20 offby1 what do you mean "go onm then"?  I want _you_ to paste _your_ output.
18:20 offby1 so _I_ can look at it.
18:21 moritz how do you think that's going to help..?
18:22 offby1 maybe I'll see a difference between the stuff that your "Configure" found, and mine; and I'll slap my forehead and say "Of course; I need the Foomatic module".
18:22 offby1 my forehead has a callous on it from similar slaps in the past.
18:22 moritz ok
18:22 offby1 .oO("callus"?)
18:22 offby1 thanks
18:22 moritz wait a sec, I'll restart make
18:23 moritz and perhaps prepend a 'make clean'
18:23 offby1 gosh, thanks
18:23 offby1 that's above and beyond
18:24 offby1 pugs takes an awful long time to build, if I recall correctly.
18:24 moritz I can use 'make soon' ;)
18:24 offby1 huh
18:24 moritz and my laptop's only other job is to crack some password files - nothing important ;)
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18:26 * offby1 glances around nervously.
18:26 * offby1 subtly points to moritz in a way that only the FBI agent will notice
18:26 moritz offby1: it's the universities password list ;)
18:26 moritz offby1: and certainly not _your_ univeristy...
18:27 moritz I told the admins it's a security hole, but they won't listen without proof-of-concept ;)
18:27 offby1 now, how do you know what U I attend?
18:28 moritz offby1: are you studying phyics in Würzburg, Germany?
18:28 moritz offby1: if not, I'm right ;)
18:28 moritz it's called "educated guessing"
18:28 moritz and I probably knew you if you did
18:29 allbery_b moritz: you should still be rather careful about that, thye could still choose to punish you for unauthorized access or something instead of doing something about it
18:30 moritz allbery_b: you're totally right - but I know the admins, and they are quite ok... I just won't modify any files, so that it's no "sabotage"
18:30 moritz and to be hones, blowfish passwords are a pain to crack ;)
18:30 offby1 Why, I've lived in Würzburg for years!
18:30 * offby1 glances around nervously.
18:31 * offby1 quickly googles
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18:36 moritz offby1: what are you googling for?
18:36 Khisanth moritz: building pugs is only around 15minutes, it's the testing that takes a very long time
18:37 moritz Khisanth: it depends on how much RAM you have available... if your maschine starts swapping, it takes much longer :(
18:37 Khisanth oh well yes then 5 hours
18:37 offby1 moritz: Würzburg, so I can pretend I've lived there for years
18:38 allbery_b heheh
18:38 * allbery_b notes that building pugs takes noticeably longer than 15 minutes, but it did improve considerably when he maxed the AM on his g4 macmini :)
18:38 allbery_b *RAM
18:38 moritz offby1: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/pugs-smoke-pir <-- I'm currently uploading the buildlog, it will take some time
18:38 offby1 adding more RAM to my Mac Mini was the best thing I ever did for it.
18:39 offby1 moritz: thanks
18:39 moritz offby1: np
18:39 allbery_b maybe someday I'll get the intel version, but for now it's good enough for what I do with it
18:39 moritz uploaded
18:39 moritz PPC is way cooler than i386 if you ask me ;)
18:41 offby1 moritz: hmph, no relevant-looking difference between yours and mine :-(
18:41 offby1 guess it's time for a mailing-list question
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18:43 allbery_b by rights I ought to build/smoke pugs twice:  once for ghc6.6, once with the built/smoked (if it succeeded) ghc6.7 :)
18:44 allbery_b hrm, except that I think pugs requires -fvia-C which is currently b0rked
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19:02 fglock hi
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19:16 svnbot6 r15352 | diakopter++ | correcting uncommenting mistake.
19:17 phiker joined perl6
19:17 phiker hi
19:18 phiker what happened to #cpan6?
19:19 diakopter phiker: no one sent anything to the mailing lists after September 2006?
19:19 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
19:20 phiker diakopter, ok, so the project is dead?
19:20 * diakopter searches for a death certificate
19:21 phiker are there plans to work on it again?
19:22 diakopter my guess is that something .... less ambitious .... will come about.
19:23 phiker you mean with only perl support or something like that?
19:24 diakopter we'll see.  do you have resources you're considering committing/contributing or something?
19:24 phiker no, I was just interested in Perl6 and thought about the future of CPAN, then I found CPAN6
19:25 phiker as I can see, many documents describing the design have been commited
19:25 phiker but not details about how to actually implement it
19:25 diakopter from what I can tell, Perl 6 implementations will be able to use CPAN as it is
19:26 phiker so nothing will change?
19:26 phiker ok
19:31 diakopter phiker: do you have ideas to improve/extend the CPAN?
19:40 phiker diakopter, uhm
19:40 phiker I´ll think about it :)
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20:12 phiker diakopter, syntax highlighting for POD documentation
20:15 CardinalNumber joined perl6
20:26 phiker diakopter, as on perldoc.perl.org
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21:10 phiker gn8
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22:47 aufrank TimToady: rule trait_auxiliary { <sym: is>   <ident><postcircumfix>?
22:47 aufrank this is missing a closing }
22:48 aufrank (I think)
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23:30 gnuvince_ ls
23:31 Patterner Access denied.
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23:33 Caelum is there a good tutorial for pugs?
23:34 revdiablo Tutorial for what?
23:34 revdiablo The language? The internals? Something else?
23:34 Caelum the language
23:35 * Caelum figures that's a good place to start
23:35 moritz Caelum: do you know perl5?
23:35 moritz Caelum: if yes, you could read through http://www.programmersheaven.com/2/Perl6-FAQ
23:35 lambdabot Title: Perl6-FAQ at Programmers Heaven
23:35 revdiablo http://perlcabal.org/syn/Differences.html
23:35 gnuvince_ joined perl6
23:35 lambdabot Title: Perl6::Perl5::Differences
23:35 revdiablo That's good if you know perl 5, too
23:35 * Caelum does, thank you!
23:41 putter fglock: hi :)
23:45 svnbot6 r15353 | tene++ | Parsing some weird yaml with eval can make pugs die badly.
23:45 moritz tene++ I see you commit bit now works ;)
23:46 tene moritz: I forgot that the pugs checkout I have on this system was still from openfoundry
23:46 tene i haven't used this box in quite a while, but my laptop died last week.
23:48 moritz tene: that explains it ;)
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