Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-03-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Limbic_Region gaal - ref all_parse.t - sorry, that's my fault.  I thought it wise that we contiously verify that the examples at least compile (even if they don't run correctly) since people refer to them externally (PerlMonks for instance)
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00:47 Limbic_Region @tell audreyt WOW.  r15726 = 87 minutes, r15751 = 148 minutes but r15761 = 30 minutes.  It may have even been a few minutes faster than that.  Each time pugs compiles my firewall sees it as a new program and asks if it is ok to let it open a socket (one of the http tests).  I wasn't paying attention since it never asks that quickly.
00:47 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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00:55 allbery_b shabbat over; full pugs build kicked :)
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01:10 Limbic_Region allbery_b - out of curiosity, is use of a computer prohibited during shabbat?
01:10 allbery_b strictly speaking, yes
01:11 allbery_b but (a) not fully converted yet so forbidden to fully practice; (b) Reform, so it's all up in the air anyway (but I do severeley restrict what I do) (c) may have to change jobs to get ouyt of some 24x7 stuff that requires me to be online anyway (so I might as well hang out and do non-"creative" stuff)
01:12 Limbic_Region allbery_b - it seems to me that avoiding the things that should (strictly speaking) be avoided is more work than doing the things themselves
01:14 Limbic_Region when I was doing a comparative theology study and going to various different houses of worship (multiple faiths) - I found it quite amusing (no offense intended) that folks would turn the tv on to the channel they wanted to watch on Friday for the next day
01:14 allbery_b heh
01:14 avar http://sial.org/pbot/23579 # yarr pugs people:)
01:14 lambdabot Title: Paste #23579 from Someone at 85.197.228.236
01:14 allbery_b technically that's not permitted, although I suppose MO abuses a leniency used in Israel
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01:15 * Limbic_Region has to wander off for a few to put his daughter to bed
01:15 allbery_b (tune TV to a channel which is empty except when there's an emergency broadcast.  given Israel's circumstances that's a wise precaution)
01:15 allbery_b "get to a bomb shelter NOW" overrides Shabbat in even the strictest interpretations
01:21 Limbic_Region in any case, your pugs should scream
01:25 allbery_b btw, if you did Shabbat with an MO family, sometime you should try it with a traditional or Chasidic Orthodox family.  it is an experience.
01:25 avar moritz: re p5->p6, seen the MAD stuff in perl 5.10? That's what larry was working on for that
01:26 allbery_b the restrictions can be treated as restrictions, or they can be treated as what they're spooosed to be:  a description of how to wall away the ugliness of life and just *be*, in joy, for a day
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01:27 Limbic_Region allbery_b - I understand (and fully agree with) the intent.
01:28 allbery_b the more traditional folks often (not always) manage to pull off the latter --- even if you can't live that way, you should eperience it at least once
01:29 Limbic_Region most of the Jewish folks I know around here aren't even remotely orthodox
01:31 avar this is what you get when you mix national/people's identity with religious identity
01:33 Limbic_Region avar - I didn't mean to imply that they were "non-practicing" Jews.  Only that they were really lax with the rules
01:33 Limbic_Region the same applies to a lot of "Christians" I know
01:34 Limbic_Region avar - but yes, I see your point.
01:34 avar true, but then again the identity of "christian" was really hijacked back in the day
01:35 avar :)
01:35 Limbic_Region in any case, if there is ever a conference or hackathon or what not, I would be very interested in learning more
01:37 * Limbic_Region is planning on being in SA in the August time frame and is hoping to be at YAPC::Brazil fwiw
01:38 allbery_b Judaism is far from monolithic.  there are nationalistic/non-religious Jews, there are the liberal Jews (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Renewal, and various oddities including hybrid Judaism/Buddhism, etc.), and a great many varieties of Orthodoxy (various degrees of Modern Orthodoxy, multiple kinds of Chasidism, Satmar, etc. --- all of this ignoring the Ashkenazic / Sephardic-Mizrachi split)
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01:39 allbery_b and then there's the question of Zionism, which is in many ways orthogonal to the above
01:41 Limbic_Region I try not to get too bogged down in labels.  I think it was Rumi who said they are your coffin.  And some other influential person said that it doesn't matter what group they belong to or what they say but rather by their actions
01:42 avar hlaghism
01:42 Limbic_Region When Jasmine is old enough - we will be taking a trip to Jerusalem.
01:42 avar yay
01:43 avar pugs now fails tests faster!:)
01:43 Limbic_Region yep
01:43 Limbic_Region very fast indeed
01:43 Patterner I should visit Jerusalem again... it's been a long time.
01:44 avar what's there to do there besides being uncomfortbly close to a herd of other worshippers?:)
01:45 Limbic_Region avar - where do live?
01:46 avar Reykjavík, Iceland
01:46 Limbic_Region from what I understand, tourism is a booming business there
01:46 avar hadn't noticed
01:46 Limbic_Region in any case, you should be able to understand the point I am going to try and make
01:46 avar which point?
01:46 * Limbic_Region is getting to that
01:46 avar I was just wondering what people actually do in Jerusalem:)
01:47 avar those going on a pilgrimage that is
01:48 Limbic_Region growing up here in the US where everyone is politically correct and no one bothers to take a silly thing like religion seriously, it is hard to understand what it means to have true convictions
01:48 Limbic_Region when my daughter is old enough to start making decisions about what, if any, faith she is going to follow - I want her doing so with her eyes wide open
01:50 * avar still recents his parents for the god/santa claus thing
01:50 avar but meh, back to hacking!
01:51 avar man, Pugs::Compiler::Rule is slooow:)
01:52 * Limbic_Region 's parents didn't have anything to say on the topic of God but they kept the Santa Claus thing going even after he pulled the fake beard off to all the other kids shock and horror
01:54 Patterner avar: it's warm and full of history
01:55 Limbic_Region avar - according to wikipedia, things to do there not relgious in nature is go to art museum (1 million visitors per year) or go to a soccer game (apparently taken very seriously)
01:55 Limbic_Region P::C::R is pure perl is it not?
01:56 avar yeah, it is
01:56 allbery_b the CW is:  go to Jerusalem for religion or history; go to Tel Aviv/Yaffa for culture
01:56 Patterner Eilat?
02:01 allbery_b somewhere in between.  Jerusalem and Tel Aviv are polar opposites culturally
02:02 Patterner Jerusalem's beaches aren't impressive.
02:03 Limbic_Region I suspect they are not nude
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02:03 avar emacs++ # awesome gdb integration
02:04 Limbic_Region . o O ( speaking of holy wars )
02:05 * Limbic_Region really should make an effort to learn a bit of emacs
02:05 avar learning a bit is too little:)
02:06 Limbic_Region well, I am off to watch a movie and then go to bed
02:06 Limbic_Region TTFN all
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02:06 avar whee
02:31 allbery_b well, no 30 minute smoke here (duh) but it's definitely faster
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05:03 Debolaz Hey amnesiac
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05:31 avar hehe
05:31 avar Pugs::Compiler::Rule makes your perl5 code as slow as perl6:)
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06:39 gaal hmm, r15761 smoke isn't faster on my box than 15758...
06:49 gaal ...huh though this time I counted time spend transmitting the smoke to the server. so it is faster :)
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09:22 pmurias hi
09:23 rindolf Hi pmurias
09:23 pmurias anyone here is going to YAPC::Europe?
09:23 rindolf pmurias: I'll be there by spirit.
09:23 webmind maybe
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09:50 avar why does conway have to be so insane?
09:50 avar :)
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10:25 svnbot6 r15762 | kudra++ | Placeholders
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10:37 svnbot6 r15763 | kudra++ | Placeholders with threads added
10:37 svnbot6 r15764 | kudra++ | Why won't this commit?
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11:50 pmurias hi
11:50 pmurias i have en_GB.UTF-8 UTF-8 in my /etc/locale.gen
11:51 pmurias but i get en_Gb.utf8 in locale -a, is it ok?
11:51 pmurias en_GB.utf8
11:52 pmurias (i run locale-gen)
11:52 pmurias sorry thought it was #gentoo
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11:58 pasteling "lloy0076" at 122.49.170.210 pasted "What Does That Error Mean...(error:imcc:eval_ins: op 'pow_i_i_i' not found)" (12 lines, 305B) at http://sial.org/pbot/23582
11:58 lloy0076 I'm wondering why the "**" operator is giving that error...
11:59 lloy0076 It's "pir" from parrot version 0.4.9
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12:02 moritz lloy0076: perhaps you would find more help if you asked in a parrot channel ;)
12:02 lloy0076 moritz: Indeed, I was thinking the same thing.
12:02 lloy0076 moritz: I finally found the reference to the right channel after staring blankly at the doco for 1/2 a minute.
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16:30 * Limbic_Region yawns and greets everyone
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16:36 geoffb Morning, Limbic_Region
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16:37 Limbic_Region actually, a bit after noon here but good localtime() geoffb
16:38 Limbic_Region seems pretty quiet since audreyt accidently sped up pugs by over a factor of 2x
16:38 moritz Limbic_Region: wb ;-)
16:38 geoffb Yeah, I was thinking to myself, "Isn't Limbic back east?"
16:38 Limbic_Region <---- Odenton, MD
16:38 moritz Limbic_Region: which timezone are you in?
16:38 Limbic_Region mortiz - EST
16:38 geoffb For some reason I was thinking Annapolis ....
16:38 Limbic_Region not too far away
16:39 geoffb "Nearest well-known town"?
16:39 Limbic_Region I'm only about 10 minutes from Baltimore - maybe 20
16:39 Limbic_Region in any case, in less than 24 hours I will only have $work as a competitor for my time (Jean and Jasmine will be in the Philippines)
16:40 Limbic_Region so I plan on helping make sure the donation page is up and the word is out
16:40 Limbic_Region then I will probably absorb myself in one of my numerous back burner projects
16:40 geoffb I personally can't wait for audreyt to merge her pad branch.  The stuff she just did helped the smoke a lot, because it's lots of short-running scripts, but it didn't help my stuff at all (one long-running script).  But she says the pad stuff definitely will.
16:40 geoffb Good for you!
16:41 geoffb If you don't mind me asking, why are J&J going to Philippines and you're stuck in MD?
16:41 Limbic_Region long story so I will give you the abridged version
16:41 geoffb Philippines seems like a cool place to go ....
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16:42 Limbic_Region last summer I came down with mononucleosis and unexpectedly used vacation time - over the holidays a few months ago, we went to Maine and I used up 3 more weeks.  So in a nutshell - I don't have the time
16:42 Limbic_Region OTOH, I will get to go on a trip by myself later in the year (South America) so it all works out
16:43 Limbic_Region geoffb - is audreyt's pad hackery mostly done or just in research phase?
16:43 geoffb cool
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16:43 geoffb She was going to drop it Friday night, but decided the smoke improvements took precedence
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16:44 geoffb (In fact, she mentions that in one of her commit messages: "r15753 | audreyt++ |   I delayed Pad refactoring for one night to write this"
16:45 Limbic_Region yeah, going from 87 minutes to 148 minutes back down to 30 minutes in 35 revisions is a pretty amazing feat
16:45 geoffb nodnod
16:45 Limbic_Region I saw that geoffb - but that statement didn't imply to me that the refactoring had already taken place
16:46 geoffb I posted some benches a couple days ago that indicated we have a factor of 1000x left to go, we could potentially have that down to 2 seconds.  ;-)
16:46 geoffb (I know, I know, I/O and process forking would get in the way way before that ....)
16:46 geoffb She had said she was pretty far along in her branch, but just not quite finished.
16:47 geoffb Or at least, that's how I understood it.
16:47 Limbic_Region well - she has a propensity for hacking offline and then merging huge checkins
16:47 geoffb something along the lines of "tonight, or if not then, tomorrow" at one point.
16:47 geoffb nodnod
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16:49 geoffb I'm excited, because if I can get my simple GL stuff running at say 30-50 fps, I can probably get some of my more complex stuff running at 3-5 fps, and that's enough to reasonably do some mass conversion of my main hobby coding.
16:50 Limbic_Region it would also provide an opportunity to do some profiling against a real world app rather than a bunch of mostly contrived examples
16:51 Limbic_Region not that I don't think there are some obvious performance issues already known - but I bet there are some hidden ones too
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16:54 geoffb nodnod
16:56 * geoffb goes back to reading the [insert complaint here] COLLADA spec
16:57 gaal re speedups: time perl -e1 is virtually instantaneous on my machine; until we get pugs there we have a ways to go :)
17:00 geoffb Is pugs in need of long-running benchmarks?
17:00 gaal 'make smoke' is kinda that
17:00 Limbic_Region gaal - real    0m0.453s vs real    0m0.078s
17:00 audreyt we have the mandel.p6 benchmark which is standard for dispatching
17:00 lambdabot audreyt: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:00 gaal though sure, that's a moving target
17:01 audreyt I did some padhacking tonight; it compiles and runs and fails, oh, 80% of the tests.
17:01 gaal Limbic_Region: what are those numbers?
17:01 Limbic_Region gaal - not sure if you saw my note regarding all_parse.t but that's my fault
17:01 geoffb gaal: yes, but smoke is pretty centered on startup time, not execution of long processes
17:01 Limbic_Region the time for pugs -e1 vs perl -e1 on my platform
17:01 gaal Limbic_Region: no fault at all :)
17:01 audreyt but I need to sleep now -- been sleeping a lot today -- it might be that my liver isn't still quite happy about continuous sleephacking :)
17:01 geoffb audreyt: The glass is 20% full then
17:01 gaal Limbic_Region: in fact, it means there's an extra ~170 or whatever extra prelude startup opportunities, so speedups there are multiplied :)
17:02 gaal geoffb: the regexp tests do take a while
17:02 geoffb audreyt: please, do get some sleep.  We'll see you tonight our time.  :-)
17:02 audreyt yeah :)
17:02 Limbic_Region sleep well
17:02 gaal have a moose
17:02 geoffb gaal: fair enough.  Are those dominated by the regular expressions themselves, the parsing and compile of same, or the test overhead?
17:03 lichtkind gaal what has moose to do with sleep?
17:03 geoffb lichtkind: everything, clearly?
17:03 gaal what geoffb said :)
17:03 * Limbic_Region suspects lichtkind never watched Smurfs
17:03 gaal geoffb: good question!
17:04 gaal hmm, a friend was thinking about re engine benchmarks but he's become very busy lately
17:04 * geoffb imagines dreaming of a moose walking around scenes from Robin Williams' afterlife movie
17:04 lichtkind what has smurf to do with moose?
17:04 lichtkind that was a great film
17:05 masak lichtkind: everything, clearly?
17:05 lichtkind not clear :)
17:05 masak :)
17:06 * masak suspects lichtkind hasn't seen Monty Python
17:06 gaal http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2004/11/19/contest.html
17:06 geoffb moose:gaal :: smurf:american children
17:06 lambdabot Title: SimpleBits ~ Mystery Photo Contest Thing
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17:07 wolverian gaal, haha
17:07 wolverian that is SCARY
17:08 gaal *shrug* some people have finely honed senses
17:08 gaal other have reflexes :)
17:09 lichtkind but finaly what does mean : have a noose?
17:09 lichtkind äh moose
17:09 lichtkind audrey is no object :)
17:09 gaal lichtkind: in this case it means something like, have a good time
17:10 lichtkind maybe i grok this when i use Muuse ;)
17:10 lichtkind äh Moose
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18:12 svnbot6 r15765 | audreyt++ | * Chase latest mtl export interface changes; this should
18:12 svnbot6 r15765 | audreyt++ |   repair the build with GHC-trunk (and hopefully still
18:12 svnbot6 r15765 | audreyt++ |   builds with GHC 6.6.)
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18:31 audreyt @tell allbery_b try build again wiht trunk ghc?
18:31 lambdabot Consider it noted.
18:32 geoffb audreyt: and I'm building with 6.6
18:37 nwc10 audreyt: are you likely to reach London at any point this year?
18:43 allbery_b eventually
18:43 allbery_b I'm cleaning, rewiring, rearranging, only just got my desktop back online (mostly; old USB hub seems to be going south)
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18:57 geoffb audreyt:  15765 built OK on 6.6, and worked on my code.
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19:53 allbery_b r15765 build launched against GHC HEAD.  will be a while, since (as always, and in this case necessarily) it's build from realclean and g4minis are still slow :)
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20:12 gaal allbery_b: fwiw 6.7 is significantly faster for me. You might want to give it a try.
20:13 allbery_b it's up to 101 of 112
20:13 allbery_b and I didn't even notice
20:13 allbery_b (6.6 normally kills interactive performance while building pugs...)
20:14 gaal ......files?
20:15 gaal bbiab&
20:15 allbery_b [106 of 112] Compiling Pugs.Eval
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20:19 riffraff szia
20:24 riffraff sorry someone can explain me why the function SortByM in Pugs/Prim/List.hs is named like that?
20:25 allbery_b @tell audreyt 6.7 build fixed, and is much faster (and leaves my machine more usable) both building and running
20:25 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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20:33 riffraff I have the feeling that op1 "sort" in prim.hs should check the signature of the Code value that it takes in input
20:34 riffraff but before I dive into a crazy hack session trying to learn haskell, can someone tell me if these things are actually supposed to happen at the haskell level or in a perl library?
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21:04 Aankhen`` "CP6AN" is simply "Comprehensive Perl 6 Archive Network"?
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21:17 gaal riffraff: sortBy because it takes a comparator, M because it's monadic.
21:17 gaal re: checking the sig, do you mean as a correctness check? sure, that'd be a good idea.
21:18 gaal but checking in op1 "sort" would happen at runtime too
21:18 riffraff nope, I mean because in theory the Comparator could be a KeyExtractor wiche takes a single value
21:18 riffraff ah the M is for monadic I see thanks
21:19 riffraff oops, sorry aCrtierion could be a Comparator or Keyextractor
21:19 riffraff *Criterion
21:20 riffraff but since I don't know much haskell and pugs' internals I don't know if this situation is actually handled somehow
21:21 riffraff I just think it is not :)
21:22 gaal write a test? :)
21:22 gaal or check if there is one
21:23 riffraff I know it doesn't work, and I think that there was a test
21:23 riffraff I'll check
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21:24 gaal t/builtins/lists/sort.t and t/unspecced/sort.t
21:25 riffraff unspecced redefines the whole list.t
21:25 gaal I.... don't really get the one in unspecced
21:25 riffraff but it's broken because of the lack of subtype
21:25 riffraff IIRC
21:25 gaal why it includes an implementation etc.
21:26 riffraff I think it is a leftover from some early iteration of pugs
21:26 gaal not that early, it's from September
21:28 gaal also, ":depends<subset and argument list return signatures>" is bogus
21:28 gaal syntactically
21:29 gaal riffraff: if you have tuits to clean this up and see what can be moved to prelude, that'd be great
21:29 riffraff mh
21:29 gaal bedtime for me.
21:29 riffraff wait because there is more fun
21:29 riffraff ah no sorry go to sleep :)
21:29 gaal let's hear the fun :)
21:29 riffraff g'night
21:30 riffraff therre are a little bit more List.sort or Array.sort definitions all around the tree
21:30 riffraff and all of them are broken due to different reasons, like &join:(Any) not parsing correctly,
21:30 riffraff in one case there is "ues" instead of "use"
21:31 gaal just fix that :)
21:31 riffraff but I don't know why they are there in general :/
21:31 riffraff so back to the iorginal question: sort is supposed to happen in prim.hs or in some List.pm?
21:32 gaal try checking svn/k log and annotate?
21:32 riffraff mh.. good idea
21:32 gaal you mean whether Prim.hs or List.hs?
21:32 riffraff t6hank you :
21:32 riffraff no, I actually mean .pm :)
21:33 riffraff I had this idea that some perl6 libs would be translated to haskell but kept in perl for hackability and portabilty
21:33 gaal oh: well, we don't have 100% convenient separate modules yet (coming soon), so you can just put it in Prelude.pm
21:33 riffraff maybe I just misunderstood
21:33 gaal you'll see there's lots of stuff like that there
21:33 riffraff ok
21:33 gaal yes, that's reasonable
21:34 gaal as in, "the case"
21:35 gaal basic sort stuff should certainly be built in (either to the backend or to a standard library, that's an implementation detail)
21:35 riffraff true
21:36 gaal if there are things that are more clearly library -- say, that you wouldn't expect to want to pay every time you load pugs if you aren't using it -- then put it in ext/Sort or something
21:36 gaal okay, see you later...
21:37 riffraff thank you again & good sleep
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22:08 dmpk2k Is there a nicer way to write "$a = =$*IN;"?
22:09 moritz dmpk2k: you could use $a = $*IN.readline
22:11 dmpk2k Hmm. Well, it's a bit of an improvement over that gobbldygook. Thanks.
22:13 dmpk2k It would be nice if something more readable was aliased to it though. Reading in from console isn't uncommon. :|
22:15 riffraff isn't als =<> the same thing?
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22:18 dmpk2k That's even better. I think I can live with that.
22:19 riffraff I think I'd go with a "gets"
22:20 riffraff how the hell I can call a routine in a namespace? ::Foo::bar does not work :/
22:22 dmpk2k Is gets() a builtin?
22:27 allbery_b smoke uploaded, fwiw
22:28 wolverian riffraff, that's different. Foo::bar or ::Foo.bar
22:29 wolverian (or Foo.bar)
22:29 riffraff well, my ide was that :: would just get me to the outer scope
22:29 riffraff err.. root namespace
22:29 riffraff don't knwo the exact name :)
22:29 wolverian no, it's the type sigil :)
22:30 riffraff isn't that ^Foo ?
22:30 wolverian no, that's meta.
22:30 riffraff oh, right
22:30 wolverian or upto
22:31 wolverian it depends on what you want to talk about
22:34 riffraff but then I wonder: why does &(::Foo.bar) actually gets me the routine object?
22:34 riffraff s/./::/
22:35 riffraff mh.. I se that probably is just & that is DWIM
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22:35 wolverian I have no idea what's going on there
22:35 wolverian ?eval &(::Foo::bar).()
22:35 evalbot_r15754 is now known as evalbot_r15765
22:35 evalbot_r15765 Foo::bar.new()
22:36 wolverian oh, hum. it's the same thing as Foo::bar()
22:36 wolverian but it thinks Foo::bar is a type
22:37 riffraff oh
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