Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-03-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:02 dduncan fyi, I just did another smoke, my first of March afaik ... normal Haskell backend, snapshot/darwin, r15788 ... all but 554 tests pass ... interestingly, the smoke completed considerably faster than the last time I smoked ... it was 63 minutes this time, vs 90 or 135 (forget) minutes last time ... maybe the new way that tasks are handed out to concurrent smoker threads has something to do with it?
00:03 dduncan nothing about my environment really changed since the last smoke ... same hardware and GHC etc
00:04 moritz dduncan: did you compile with GHC 6.7?
00:04 dduncan no
00:04 dduncan last time and this, it is 6.6.0
00:05 tene dduncan: pugs startup time has decreated quite a bit.
00:05 moritz anyway, audreyt talked about speeding up startup by un-atomifying things
00:05 tene decreased
00:05 dduncan and it is the pre-packaged 6.6.0 at that
00:07 dduncan in any event, it will be good, whenever that happens, that Perl 6 performs no slower than Perl 5 on the same hardware with equivalent code
00:08 geoffb dduncan: It will be a great while before we reach that point.
00:09 geoffb Pugs is currently about 1000x slower than Perl 5 by my measurement
00:09 dduncan sure ... but "good enough" is also good enough
00:09 moritz probably it will only be reached when parrot is used as backend and parrot optimizes well ;-)
00:09 dduncan eg, if one can run an application written in it regularly and not have it feel slower to the user
00:10 dduncan this includes web apps
00:10 geoffb dduncan: Oh, I know that measure well -- I just meant, we're a ways from that point.  I *do* think we will get there.
00:12 dduncan for my purposes, if a web program compiles and finishes a page request in less than 1 clock second with a load of 1 user, that's good enough to begin using for production
00:12 dduncan that's considerably less demand than a full server
00:12 geoffb nodnod
00:13 moritz dduncan: it's the same for me, but pray to god that you'll never have to scale ;-)
00:14 dduncan the thing is, if the system becomes fast enough to tolerate with a small number of users, then its actual use should increase exponentially, and then we have a much larger base that can focus on optimizing it for scaling
00:14 dduncan s/users/concurrent users/
00:15 dduncan s/base/developer base/
00:23 dduncan FYI, a revised GPLv3 process time table has finally been announced, via the mailing list, info-gplv3@gplv3.fsf.org, ... draft 3 will come out in 2 days, with 60 day discussion, then last call draft, then 30 days, then final publication ... so we should be able to start using GPLv3 in about 92 days!
00:23 dduncan I'm happy to see that revised timetable.
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00:24 moritz hey, cool
00:24 dduncan the web site isn't updated yet, though
00:24 dduncan or not the front page
00:24 moritz and I hope sun will release opensolaris, especially ZFS under GPLv3
00:24 dduncan indeed
00:25 dduncan and barring any major problem, unlikely that is, I will be using GPLv3 for all my important stuff
00:25 dduncan afaik, the Perl Foundation plans to make the Perl 6 license the disjunction of GPL v3 and Artistic v2, which would be good
00:26 dduncan ... or later
00:26 * moritz still likes the WTFPL ;-)
00:27 dduncan that sounds like the BF of licenses
00:28 moritz "WTFPL - Do What The Fuck You Want To Public License"
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00:28 moritz just another name for public domain ;-)
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00:39 offby1 "Do What The F*** Thou Wilt" shall be the whole of the law
00:41 dmpk2k It'd certainly make things... exciting.
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01:04 specbot6 r14354 | larry++ | Suggestions from TheDamian++ and Juerd++ and others.
01:04 specbot6 r14354 | larry++ | All punctuation is now treated as potentially meta.
01:04 specbot6 r14354 | larry++ | <'foo'> form is gone; just use 'foo'.
01:05 specbot6 r14354 | larry++ | Conjectural syntax positive and negative submatches of isolated substring.
01:05 specbot6 r14354 | larry++ | Conjectural syntax for recursive calls to anonymous substructures.
01:05 specbot6 r14354 | larry++ | < a b c > is now just a list of strings.
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01:14 specbot6 r14355 | larry++ | typo from dduncan++
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04:20 pasteling "kavelot" at 200.158.87.162 pasted "how can "A" be printed but "B" not (the script is, for some reason, stopping on second line)" (3 lines, 55B) at http://sial.org/pbot/23806
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07:21 gaal I like spec:r14354 :-)
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12:01 svnbot6 r15789 | fglock++ | PCR - fixed Match deref (perl5.9.5 is more strict)
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14:06 DarkWolf84 hi there
14:06 DarkWolf84 :)
14:07 moritz hi DarkWolf84 ;)
14:08 DarkWolf84 is there any way to convert perl6 code to binary or byte code
14:08 moritz DarkWolf84: there is pugs with parrot backend if you mean that
14:08 DarkWolf84 yes
14:09 DarkWolf84 but i just compiled parrot and pugs
14:09 DarkWolf84 and pugs gives me an error
14:09 moritz there is a bit of bit rot in the parrot backend :(
14:10 DarkWolf84 when i'm converting program it ends with an error
14:12 moritz and don't even know if there is somebody actively working on the parrot backend
14:12 DarkWolf84 maybe that's the point
14:13 DarkWolf84 nvm pugs is running fine :)
14:13 moritz DarkWolf84: do you have a commit bit?
14:13 DarkWolf84 what is commit bit
14:14 DarkWolf84 may be i haven't
14:14 moritz DarkWolf84: it allows you to commit changes to the pugs svn repository
14:14 moritz DarkWolf84: if you /msg me your email address I can invite you
14:15 DarkWolf84 is it included in svn version
14:15 DarkWolf84 ok
14:17 DarkWolf84 hm know only perl(original perl) for now and little perl6
14:17 svnbot6 r15790 | lanny++ | * from_perl6_rules
14:17 svnbot6 r15790 | lanny++ |   + turn fails into todo's.  There are so many todo's already
14:17 svnbot6 r15790 | lanny++ |     in existence I /think/ this is the intention.
14:17 moritz btw on freenode you need to be registered to be allowed to /msg :(
14:18 DarkWolf84 i've registered yet
14:18 DarkWolf84 my english is not good because i'm not english
14:19 moritz then you're in good company, the perl6/pugs people come from all over the world
14:20 DarkWolf84 sorry
14:20 moritz I'm from Germany, but we have hackers from the US, Taiwan, Isreal etc
14:20 DarkWolf84 i forgot to identify myself
14:21 DarkWolf84 i think now it's done
14:22 DarkWolf84 i send the my email two times
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14:22 DarkWolf84 ok
14:24 moritz DarkWolf84: got it now
14:24 moritz DarkWolf84: email is on its way
14:24 DarkWolf84 fine :)
14:24 moritz DarkWolf84: it's custom to add yourself to the AUTHORS file on first commit as a test if commit works
14:26 DarkWolf84 how work this
14:26 DarkWolf84 i'm not familiar whit it
14:27 DarkWolf84 with it*
14:28 moritz DarkWolf84: http://www.google.com/searc​h?hl=en&amp;q=svn+tutorial
14:28 lambdabot Title: svn tutorial - Google Search
14:28 DarkWolf84 tu
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15:07 avar ?eval 1
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15:13 moritz avar: the answer is 1 (and Bool::True) ;-)
15:14 avar return "The answer to life, the universe, and everything" but 42
15:14 DarkWolf84 :)
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16:50 svnbot6 r15791 | fglock++ | PCR - version 0.22 in CPAN
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17:24 svnbot6 r15792 | fglock++ | v6.pm - fixed precedence of ';' separator
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17:54 lichtkind Leibsle: soso das leibsle
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18:44 kolibrie I am trying to add values to a match object as a named capture, as a side effect
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18:44 kolibrie I did not see any examples of this in the spec, but think it should look something like:
18:44 kolibrie $<numeral> := <roman_numeral>  { $<notation> := 'roman' }
18:44 pasteling "kolibrie" at 66.166.118.50 pasted "attempting to add values to match object as a side-effect" (82 lines, 1.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/23818
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18:48 kolibrie is there a canonical way of doing this?
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19:24 kolibrie fglock: any insights into http://sial.org/pbot/23818 ?
19:25 lambdabot Title: Paste #23818 from "kolibrie" at 66.166.118.50
19:27 fglock kolibrie: looking
19:28 kolibrie fglock: not sure if it is specced, but it seemed like it might work
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19:37 fglock kolibrie: I think it is specced; but Pugs::Runtime::Match->hash returns a copy of the hash - assigning to the hash doesn't change the Match object, unfortunately
19:38 kolibrie fglock: so the syntax is okay, but not currently implemented in PCR?
19:39 fglock yes
19:39 * kolibrie will try to find another way, then
19:40 kolibrie (unless fglock has a solution already in mind)
19:41 fglock hmm - we could use tie, if it weren't slow
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19:41 fglock otoh, everything is slow these days
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19:44 * kolibrie chose Perl regexes mostly because the syntax is so nice - was not expecting speed for a little while
19:44 fglock the solution I'm thinking about is to make a flexible emitter, that does some cost-benefit analysis, based on the kp6 compiler
19:45 DarkWolf84 i like much regexp too :)
19:46 DarkWolf84 maybe because i haven't learned the new ones
19:47 kolibrie DarkWolf84: I am using Perl 6 regexes, which are a great improvement over Perl 5 regexes
19:47 kolibrie though the spec and implementation are not finished yet
19:47 DarkWolf84 I said i haven't learned them yet
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19:49 DarkWolf84 but there is a lot of time to leran new things
19:49 DarkWolf84 :)
19:50 kolibrie a lifetime
19:50 fglock kolibrie: tieing the result of 'sub hash' in Pugs::Runtime::Match is not too bad
19:50 DarkWolf84 life is a big school for me
19:51 kolibrie fglock: cool
20:08 fglock kolibrie: done
20:08 svnbot6 r15793 | fglock++ | PCR - minor hack to make %($/) rw - kolibrie++
20:08 kolibrie fglock: thank you
20:08 * kolibrie pulls
20:08 fglock didn't need tie :)
20:08 kolibrie nice
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20:15 kolibrie fglock: fewer lines of code, too
20:17 svnbot6 r15794 | fglock++ | PCR - ChangeLog update
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20:24 DarkWolf84 strange
20:24 DarkWolf84 let vars don't work
20:25 ingy seen audreyt
20:25 DarkWolf84 it gives me no such subroutine
20:26 DarkWolf84 is it removed
20:27 moritz @seen audreyt
20:27 lambdabot audreyt is in #haskell-soc, #haskell and #perl6. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
20:27 moritz ingy: the sigils are very important here ;-)
20:27 ingy @gracias
20:27 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
20:28 kolibrie ?eval my $x; for 1..4 { let $x = $_ } say $x;
20:28 evalbot_r15790 is now known as evalbot_r15794
20:28 evalbot_r15794 Error: No such subroutine: &let
20:28 DarkWolf84 yes
20:28 DarkWolf84 the same error
20:28 moritz what should 'let' be good vor?
20:29 kolibrie DarkWolf84: don't know what happened, it still works for me on an older pugs
20:29 DarkWolf84 i tyed it because the tutorial on http://www.programmersheave​n.com/2/Perl6-FAQ-Variables
20:29 kolibrie moritz: hypothetical assignment, rolls back if block is false
20:29 lambdabot Title: Perl6-FAQ-Variables at Programmers Heaven
20:30 moritz kolibrie: thanks ;)
20:30 DarkWolf84 i saw it there
20:31 DarkWolf84 so it's remouved lately
20:31 DarkWolf84 removed*
20:31 moritz DarkWolf84: I wouldn't conclude that unless it's remove from the specs
20:32 DarkWolf84 that's realy strange
20:32 kolibrie fglock: that fix works here, thank you. fglock++
20:33 fglock kolibrie: np :)
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20:34 DarkWolf84 maybe that's a bug in the new vesrion
20:37 fglock kolibrie: how about adding a test for it in pugs/t/ ?
20:38 kolibrie fglock: like from my nopaste example, perhaps?
20:38 DarkWolf84 test for let?
20:38 fglock yes
20:38 DarkWolf84 why not
20:38 DarkWolf84 :)
20:38 fglock DarkWolf84: that too :)
20:39 kolibrie DarkWolf84: for match value assignment from a side effect
20:39 DarkWolf84 i'll write some program for test
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20:40 DarkWolf84 the subversion is new thing for me but I found tutorial for it
20:42 moritz DarkWolf84: you should read docs/Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod as well ;-)
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21:10 TimToady @tell fglock we need to start switching our regex metacharacters over to simple '...' for quoting.  Step 1) enable parsing of '...' in addition to <'...'>. Step 2) make all punctuation "meta" and deprecate <'...'>.  Fix whatever breaks.  Step 3), remove <'...'>.
21:10 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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21:11 kolibrie TimToady: is that recent?
21:11 Juerd kolibrie: Steaming fresh.
21:11 Juerd Though discussion about it isn't quite all that new :)
21:11 * kolibrie thought he didn't recognize it
21:13 Juerd I would look up when I first suggested it, but my mail archive is broken and only lists things more recent than June 2006
21:13 svnbot6 r15795 | kolibrie++ | binding subrules to aliases, in the regex and as a side-effect
21:13 Juerd I have no idea where the rest went
21:14 TimToady was several years ago, anyway...
21:15 Juerd Probably around 2002-ish, when I worked on my XML grammar :)
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21:19 Aankhen`` Wowie.  That should shake things up a bit.
21:21 TimToady not as much as you'd think--2/3 of the punctuation was already meta
21:22 Aankhen`` Oh.  I never realized.
21:22 Aankhen`` The '...' bit will be very useful.
21:22 [particle] timtoady\+\+
21:22 TimToady and '=>' is a lot easier to read than =\>
21:23 moritz my "make smoke" dies after t/builtins/strings/uc.t without any message
21:23 TimToady Well, the '..' part of it was originally 'Juerd++'s idea.
21:24 TimToady but it was a small jump from there to realizing we could get rid of another arbitrary list that the user has to memorize.
21:25 TimToady I'd just got done bragging about such 'list reduction' on perlmonks, and then realized we still had this arbitrary list...
21:25 Aankhen`` Heh.
21:26 TimToady the list of punctuation chars that weren't meta before was just: ~ ` ; ' " , -
21:27 TimToady occasionally meta are: ! = /
21:27 TimToady and these were always meta: # ^ $ @ % & | \ * + ? : . ( ) < > [ ] { } « »
21:27 Aankhen`` What about „? :-D
21:28 Aankhen`` Yeh, I see what you mean now.
21:29 TimToady and by the time we pull out ' and " it doesn't leave much else
21:29 TimToady so we decided to make it a simple rule.
21:29 Aankhen`` Yeah.
21:29 TimToady also makes the regex grammar rather more extensible.
21:31 Juerd Extensible. I usually call it forward compatible :)
21:31 Juerd Extensions as a possibility versus as a necessity :)
21:32 Juerd In any case, I'm very happy with the change.
21:32 Juerd (Which isn't that big a change anyway)
21:32 TimToady yes, that was the pleasantly surprising part
21:33 TimToady bit of a pain to switch, but worth it.
21:33 TimToady and certainly better to do it now than later
21:39 dduncan seen mugwump
21:39 geoffb TimToady: link to list reduction brag on PM?
21:39 geoffb I'm going to a .pm meeting tonight, and that would be good fodder ....
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21:47 TimToady geoffb: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=606369
21:47 lambdabot Title: Re^2: Builtin functions defaulting to $_
21:48 geoffb TimToady: thanks
21:53 geoffb TimToady: out of curiosity, do you keep a (mental, electronic, or physical) list of the things Perl 6 users will be expected to memorize?  I know you have been trying to shrink the cognitive load, but is this done on a "low-hanging-fruit" basis, or is there some master list you're working to minimize?
21:53 geoffb (one of those "view into the designer's mind" questions)
21:56 DarkWolf84 btw how to report a bug
21:57 geoffb Oh, and: if this list is written down somewhere, can we see it's current state?
21:57 geoffb DarkWolf84: Add a test in t/
21:59 TimToady there's no list.  it's more like whack-a-mole.
22:00 geoffb I wouldn't have been surprised either way.  :-)
22:01 geoffb Is $*OUT autoflush default on or off for Perl 6?  And how do you get the other behavior?
22:06 svnbot6 r15796 | lwall++ | Some whackage on the <'...'> to '...' transition, mostly tests.
22:06 DarkWolf84 btw I found let test in t/
22:07 DarkWolf84 i gives the same result
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22:08 TimToady let is just a form of temp (p5 local) that might or might not restore.  so it won't unbreak the binding if the binding is broken. :)
22:10 DarkWolf84 it should be better to be there if that's not a problem
22:12 moritz I just hate the "let" keywords which reminds me of visualbasic agony ;-)
22:12 DarkWolf84 basic oh no
22:12 DarkWolf84 0_0
22:12 DarkWolf84 :)
22:13 TimToady we ignored that and borrowed it from the mathematicians to mean "provisionally"
22:13 TimToady because it was shorter than "suppose".  :)
22:13 buu This is .. scary in whole new ways.
22:13 moritz DarkWolf84: I had to code a bit in VBA 6.0 for $prev_job, and I remember some braindamage having to use "let" for assignemnt to references
22:14 DarkWolf84 basik is to lame for some tasks
22:14 * moritz had to write FFT in VB ;(
22:15 moritz so insane
22:15 DarkWolf84 that was my first programing language after all
22:15 moritz DarkWolf84: same for me, startet with QBasic on win 3.11/dos 6.1
22:15 geoffb What happened to that new VB version that audreyt was all excited about because it had been cross-pollinated with Haskell?  Is it out yet?
22:16 TimToady buu: I don't know why you think it's new... "let" as been in the language since 2002.
22:16 DarkWolf84 before 5-6 years we have only 8-bit apple][ clonings
22:16 TimToady *has
22:16 DarkWolf84 the only way to programing them was basic
22:17 DarkWolf84 imean in our contry
22:17 DarkWolf84 i was just 6-th grade
22:17 DarkWolf84 :)
22:18 DarkWolf84 btw there the word let there was optional
22:19 Juerd If enough people hate 'let', we'll automatically get a "use let", like "use self" ;)
22:19 DarkWolf84 %( my english
22:21 DarkWolf84 after all it's not removed from definitions
22:21 DarkWolf84 not yet
22:24 DarkWolf84 actually i haven't find way to use let
22:25 DarkWolf84 found*
22:26 DarkWolf84 I don't really need it.
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22:36 svnbot6 r15797 | lwall++ | STD.pm now believes in '...'  (oddly, it never had a rule to parse <'...'>)
22:38 TimToady DarkWolf84: essentially, you're using 'let' semantics all the time whenever a regex captures, because the semantics are that the old binding is restored if the capture is backtracked over (fails).
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22:41 DarkWolf84 is that means the old regex will not work?
22:42 TimToady just because something is backtracked doesn't mean that it won't succeed some other way.
22:43 DarkWolf84 may be it's used different way
22:43 TimToady p5 already has 'let' within its closures, except that it overloaded 'local' for that.
22:44 TimToady we decided to keep 'let' and 'temp' separate in p6
22:44 TimToady and that lets you use 'let' outside of regex as well
22:45 DarkWolf84 well
22:45 TimToady where throwing an exception or returning undef is equivalent to backtracking.
22:45 TimToady good for hypothetical programming like Prolog
22:46 TimToady though we'd really need a unification matcher to do that right.
22:47 DarkWolf84 but now it's not defined
22:47 DarkWolf84 not in my version
22:47 TimToady what isn't defined?
22:47 DarkWolf84 let
22:47 TimToady might not be implemented yet.
22:48 DarkWolf84 why it works for the old versions then
22:48 TimToady ?eval my $x; do { let $x = 1 }; say $x
22:48 evalbot_r15794 is now known as evalbot_r15797
22:48 evalbot_r15797 Error: No such subroutine: &let
22:48 TimToady ?eval my $x; do { temp $x = 1 }; say $x
22:48 evalbot_r15797 Error: No such subroutine: &temp
22:48 TimToady looks like temp is broken too...
22:49 DarkWolf84 i haven't tryed temp yet
22:49 TimToady they were recently demoted from declarators, I think, so probably got broken then
22:49 TimToady ?eval my $x; do { temp $x; $x = 1 }; say $x
22:49 evalbot_r15797 Error: No such subroutine: &temp
22:50 TimToady ?eval my $x; do { $x.temp; $x = 1 }; say $x
22:50 evalbot_r15797 Error: No such method in class Scalar: &temp
22:50 TimToady yeah, it's borken.
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22:51 TimToady probably interacts with the recent type system change badly, and will get picked up again after things settle down under the new type system.
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23:23 DarkWolf84 i'm back
23:23 DarkWolf84 net problems
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23:39 obra lambdabot: @pl /x -> x + 1
23:39 lambdabot (line 1, column 1):
23:39 lambdabot unexpected "/"
23:39 lambdabot expecting white space, natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression
23:39 obra lambdabot: @pl \x -> x + 1
23:39 lambdabot (1 +)
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