Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-03-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 * Limbic_Region just ordered a pizza
00:03 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
00:15 lichtkind good night
00:29 DarkWolf84 good night all
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01:02 Lorn hi
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12:34 Jedai666 Hello, am I the only one who can't commit ?
12:35 moritz Jedai666: haven't tried for a while...
12:35 moritz Jedai666: what's the error message?
12:35 moritz Jedai666: DNS problems?
12:35 moritz last commit was roughly 25 Hours ago
12:40 Patterner I bet a woman put the "commit" part into Subversion.
12:40 moritz Patterner: why?
12:41 Patterner men cannot commit :P
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12:55 svnbot6 r15806 | fglock++ | mp6 - added '...' regex syntax, instead of <'...'>
12:56 moritz Jedai666: obviously committing works for somebody else ;)
12:57 xinming hmm, May I know what is the developement stage for perl 6 alpha please? :-P
12:57 xinming Busy with work, not chat much for a while. >_<
12:57 pasteling "evalbot_r15805" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (13 lines, 559B) at http://sial.org/pbot/23888
13:04 svnbot6 r15807 | fglock++ | kp6 - <'...'> cleanup
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13:08 pasteling "evalbot_r15806" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (284 lines, 15.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/23889
13:09 Lorn hi, people, we ( me, fglock, and another friend ) need a idea :) in the next month, we doing a hackthon, but, we dont know, what need to devel for perl6 ( sorry for the "broken engrish" :P )
13:16 xinming Lorn: Perl 6 alpha. :-)
13:17 riffraff fix every failing test, ever?
13:18 * xinming thinks, people like self-hosting perl more than tests results. :-P
13:18 Jedai666 is now known as Jedai
13:19 Jedai The error message I get when I try to commit :
13:20 Jedai svn: MKACTIVITY de '/pugs/!svn/act/dd636b52-58a8-b34f-a41a-7b774bac5fa7': 403 Fo
13:20 Jedai rbidden (https://svn.pugscode.org)
13:21 Jedai I found webpage that seems to suggest it's a case problem
13:22 Jedai Others (like the Apache Committer FAQ) suggest that's because I need to use the https rep and not http, so I used svn switch but it still doesn't work
13:22 kolibrie Jedai: it looks like your account is still 'pending'.  The next step is to reply to the commitbit invitation - I can send you a new one if you need it
13:26 Jedai kolibrie: No I already did that (I'm logged in commitbit.pugscode right now), is there another step I missed ?
13:27 kolibrie Jedai: I don't think so, but you still show up as 'pending' on my display
13:27 kolibrie Jedai: you are chaddai.fouche
13:27 kolibrie ?
13:28 Jedai Yes, I am
13:28 kolibrie Jedai: I'll send you another invitation
13:28 Jedai Thanks again
13:29 Jedai I'll try to get it right this time ! ;)
13:30 kolibrie Jedai: oh, that's why, you have 'Jedai' and 'jedai'
13:31 kolibrie Jedai: the lowercase one is pending - and probably is what your subversion is set to
13:31 kolibrie the uppercase one is all set up
13:31 Jedai Yes, I had a commitbit some long time ago, but I lost the computer I had recorded the info on it
13:32 kolibrie so you should be able change your subversion to use the 'Jedai' one, and I can delete the other account
13:32 kolibrie or, the other way around
13:32 Jedai Could you try to delete the "jedai" account then
13:33 kolibrie Jedai: done
13:34 Jedai It doesn't seems to solve the problem... :(
13:35 kolibrie Jedai: did you change your subversion to use the uppercase username?
13:36 * kolibrie sent Jedai an invitation for the 'Jedai' account, too
13:36 Jedai I already used the uppercase username but I hoped it was a case problem
13:37 IllvilJaAFK is now known as IllvilJa
13:38 kolibrie Jedai: try setting up commitbit again, or verifying you can log in on the web, then verify you are using those same credentials from your subversion
13:38 Jedai Ok I tried to use your new invitation and it seems to have done the trick, thank you :D
13:38 kolibrie Jedai: okay, good!
13:38 kolibrie commit away
13:38 svnbot6 r15808 | Jedai++ | t/examples/99problems/problem90.t optimized
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15:11 DarkWolf84 ?eval our $a=1; sub change{ my let $a=2; return 1; } change(); say $a;
15:11 evalbot_r15797 is now known as evalbot_r15808
15:11 evalbot_r15808 OUTPUT[1␤] Bool::True
15:11 DarkWolf84 ?eval our $a=1; sub change{ let $a=2; return 1; } change(); say $a;
15:11 evalbot_r15808 Error: No such subroutine: &let
15:12 DarkWolf84 :>
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15:56 DrSlump hello
15:57 [particle] howdy
15:58 moritz foo()
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16:11 DarkWolf84 hi
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16:31 jrockway wow, one of my coworkers knows the perl6/christmas inside joke
16:31 jrockway i am impressed.
16:31 moritz ;)
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16:38 DarkWolf84 0_0
16:48 DarkWolf84 what joke?
16:49 moritz DarkWolf84: p6 will be released on christmas
16:49 DarkWolf84 haha
16:49 moritz DarkWolf84: though we don't know _which_ christmas...
16:49 moritz DarkWolf84: but one p6 is released _every_ day is christmas ;)
16:50 DarkWolf84 oh right, got it :)
16:51 [particle] does that mean p6 will be released every day?
16:51 DarkWolf84 I heared it the day before
16:51 moritz [particle]: no, we will just change our notion of "day" ;)
16:52 [particle] we need a BP (before perl) and AL (in the year of larry) year designations
16:53 * [particle] hopes this year is 1BP
16:53 moritz [particle]: will we have a year 0, or will we repeat old mistakes?
16:53 DarkWolf84 :)
16:54 [particle] @years[*]
16:54 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
16:54 diotalevi There was some reason I recall hearing from #perl6 wanting to md5 the callstack. Can anyone recall what the purpose of that is?
16:54 DarkWolf84 may be it will be any @christmas
16:54 DarkWolf84 :P
17:02 DarkWolf84 i hope p6 will be released this year
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17:05 [particle] well, parrot won't be ready this year, i can almost guarantee.
17:05 jrockway DarkWolf84: unlikely
17:05 [particle] not unless we get a lot more help
17:05 jrockway basically perl6 needs to be written 2 more times
17:05 moritz jrockway: why so often?
17:05 jrockway because it has to bootstrap itself
17:05 diotalevi "Perl 6", "Perl 6", ok, we're done now?
17:05 moritz jrockway: it can be bootstraped with pugs, can't, it?
17:05 sachu is now known as manju
17:06 jrockway pugs isn't done
17:06 DarkWolf84 pugs can't host itself
17:06 jrockway although the parts of pugs written in perl6 can be reused i assume
17:06 jrockway assume
17:06 manju is now known as manjuj
17:06 jrockway i do not know enough to say for sure :)
17:06 moritz jrockway: I know, but it's further than p6-in-p6
17:06 jrockway yeah
17:06 jrockway perl6 is a really big project
17:06 jrockway it's condensing though
17:07 moritz jrockway: so we only need to write 1 and a half p6 implementations ;)
17:07 jrockway people have a feel for it now
17:07 jrockway so that's a good sign
17:07 [particle] the test suite needs to be refactored heavily
17:07 jrockway yeah, i noticed that
17:07 [particle] before it can be reused by non-pugs projects
17:07 * jrockway wonders how many tests are duplicates
17:07 [particle] think coverity could help?
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17:08 [particle] that'd be nice, looking for test code duplication :)
17:08 DarkWolf84 :)
17:09 DarkWolf84 some parts like let and temp vars r broken for now
17:09 DarkWolf84 pugscc don't work
17:10 manjuj hi. i would like to contribute to Pugs. i know C programming, and am willing to learn Perl and Haskell. Where do I start?
17:10 DarkWolf84 there is a mach work to be done
17:10 [particle] all the todo info in tests must be made platform specific, and moved to adverbial style
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17:10 [particle] manjuj: welcome!
17:10 xinming manjuj: #perl. :-P
17:10 xinming manjuj: hold on please
17:10 xinming http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
17:10 lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
17:10 [particle] first things first, what's your email address, i'll give you a commit bit
17:10 xinming manjuj: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
17:11 lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
17:11 xinming Ok,
17:11 * xinming think [particle] is right
17:11 manjuj [particle]: [email@hidden.address]
17:12 [particle] sent an invite
17:12 manjuj [particle]: thanks
17:12 [particle] it's customary to add your name to AUTHORS to test your commit bit
17:14 manjuj i haven't got the mail yet, does the mail contain pointers as to how to do the followup?
17:14 moritz manjuj: yes
17:15 moritz manjuj: I managed to understand it, so everybody should ;)
17:15 [particle] and the mail does take a few minutes, it's not immediate. dunno why.
17:15 manjuj moritz: thanks
17:15 manjuj [particle]:ok
17:15 [particle] manjuj: if you'd like to program in C straight away, there's plenty of work to do on parrot.
17:15 [particle] if you'd like to work in perl/haskell, pugs is the project for you
17:16 moritz duh, /me just added a whole serendipity installation to an svn repository - 25 MB at once :(
17:16 manjuj [particle]: ok
17:16 [particle] me and the other parrot folks hang out an #parrot on irc.perl.org
17:16 moritz perhaps that was not the best idea ;)
17:17 PerlJam manjuj++ the more the merrier!  :-)
17:18 perlmonkey2 [particle] I've looked at the timeline, but I still am not sure why there are two seperate projects for Perl6.  Is it that Pugs might be v1.0 by the end of the year and Parrot won't be finished for much longer?
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17:19 moritz perlmonkey2: no, it's a bit different...
17:19 moritz perlmonkey2: p6 will be written in p6...
17:19 moritz self hosting
17:19 moritz so it has to be written in p6
17:19 moritz and it will use parrot as a backend
17:19 perlmonkey2 But first it needs to be written in something else.
17:19 PerlJam perlmonkey2: What makes you think there are two separate projects for perl6?  ;)
17:19 moritz and pugs will bootstrap p6
17:20 moritz perlmonkey2: that's what pugs is for (apart from beeing fun ;-)
17:21 [particle] perlmonkey2: the only thing "official" about perl 6 is the spec, and the test suite
17:21 [particle] there will not be One Official Implementation
17:21 perlmonkey2 Doesn't Parrot make Pugs unnecessary though?
17:21 PerlJam perlmonkey2: no.
17:22 [particle] so, implementors are free to write it in parrot, or perl 5, or haskell, etc
17:22 perlmonkey2 I thought the Perl5 and C implementations died, and only Pugs is still going?
17:23 moritz perlmonkey2: no, not dead ;)
17:23 PerlJam perlmonkey2: not quite.
17:23 moritz and afaict p6 was never supposed to be written entirely in C
17:23 moritz or was it?
17:23 PerlJam perl6 doesn't care what it's written in. :)
17:24 PerlJam moritz: in as much as parrot is written in C, perl6 will be "written in C"  :-)
17:24 [particle] the pugs repository contains multiple perl 6 implementations
17:24 perlmonkey2 finished implementations?
17:25 PerlJam perlmonkey2: how can an implementation be finished when the spec isn't finished?
17:25 perlmonkey2 That is a good question.  Do you know the answer?
17:25 PerlJam perlmonkey2: all of the implementations right now are about trying out the ideas that perl6 wants to incorporate.
17:26 PerlJam perlmonkey2: They're exploratory.  Can we do this?  etc.
17:26 perlmonkey2 Which is why I'm very excited about Pugs.
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17:32 [particle] there are no finished implementations
17:32 moritz which is very sad ;)
17:33 [particle] if there were, we'd all be hanging out on #christmas
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17:33 moritz [particle]: no, I'd still be writing docs ;)
17:33 perlmonkey2 Heh, every time I try to find out the reasoning for both Pugs and Parrot, I seem to cause some friction.  My best guess so far is that Pugs is to get Perl6 running Perl6 ASAP, and Parrot is the magical virtual machine closely aligned with the Perl6 project.
17:34 moritz I'm currently writing a German website on p6, and inted to translate a few docs to German once they are a bit more settled
17:34 [particle] perlmonkey2: parrot is a bottom-up implementation
17:34 [particle] pugs is top-down
17:35 [particle] pugs is: let's implement the parser, so we can write perl6 now. we'll compile it to whatever backend we can get to work reasonably well.
17:35 [particle] parrot is: let's design a virtual machine for dynamic languages, with perl 6 spec in mind
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17:36 moritz originally pugs was "let's learn haskell" ;-)
17:36 [particle] there's already some idea, design, code, and test sharing between the two projects
17:37 [particle] there's not friction between the pugs and parrot implementors
17:37 [particle] but sometimes i wish there was some more communication
17:37 moritz [particle]: just invite them all, provide much beer, and they _will_ communicate ;)
17:38 perlmonkey2 I just want to be able to use my favorite language AND use threading :p
17:39 moritz perlmonkey2: and what is your favorite lang? p5 already implements threading ;)
17:39 DarkWolf84 p6 is more nice
17:39 DarkWolf84 :)
17:39 perlmonkey2 I wasted 2 months on a threaded project in P5.  They are fragile fragile, FRAGILE things.  At least when mixed with shared memory.
17:39 DarkWolf84 more nise than p5
17:39 diotalevi . o O ( Maybe he wants *sane* threading too )
17:40 perlmonkey2 I switched to POE and cried about the wasted processors.
17:40 [particle] perlmonkey2: the final threads spec has not yet been written for parrot
17:40 moritz diotalevi: nobody wants sanity when you can have magic instead ;)
17:40 diotalevi perlmonkey2: I thought we warned you off about threading in p5.
17:40 perlmonkey2 you did
17:40 rindolf joined perl6
17:40 perlmonkey2 after I had spent two months on the project.
17:40 rindolf Hi perlmonkey2
17:41 rindolf perlmonkey2: why the 2?
17:41 rindolf Hi all.
17:41 avar just use forks:)
17:41 rindolf I wish #parrot was hosted here.
17:41 DarkWolf84 :)
17:41 perlmonkey2 rindolf, this isn't the perlmonkey you probably know.
17:41 rindolf perlmonkey2: oh.
17:41 perlmonkey2 I'm from PM where perlmonkey one hasn't been active for a long time.
17:41 moritz rindolf: what refrains you from connecting to irc.perl.orgß
17:41 rindolf moritz: nothing.
17:41 moritz s/ß/?/ (damn german keyboard)
17:42 * diotalevi recently found out that BerkeleyDB has a really nice feature for sharing memory. A db's environment gets shared with other processes pretty much automagically.
17:42 rindolf moritz: it's just that Freenode is friendlier.
17:42 rindolf audreyt++ # Liking Freenode.
17:42 perlmonkey2 diotalive: tell us more....
17:42 perlmonkey2 s/diotalive/diotalevi/
17:43 perlmonkey2 diotalevi: do they share the on disk object, and use their own seperate caches?  And there are no transactional issues?
17:44 diotalevi perlmonkey2: like anything, dbs are commonly used for shared state between processes or threads or whatever. All the caching and other stuff can exist as files on disk that are all mmap'd into your N processes/threads.
17:44 diotalevi And bdb does transactions n' logging n stuff.
17:44 avar why not host it on irc.perl.org?
17:44 avar (#perl6/#parrot)
17:45 avar not that it matters in the least to anyone with a decent client
17:45 bonesss is now known as bones`estudandU
17:45 * diotalevi thought it unfortunate that #perl6 wasn't on irc.perl.org when he didn'th ave a decent client.
17:45 moritz avar: just personal preference I guess
17:46 perlmonkey2 diotalevi: I tried using MySQL, but it was too slow, I needed read,process,write in < 00:00.01
17:47 diotalevi *shrug*
17:48 perlmonkey2 I now have the app written in Java, using Java threads.....really fast, and no problems with threads/shared memory.  But we hateseseseses Java and the silly Object type.
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17:53 fglock [particle]: re communication: ideas? moritz has a good point (beer)
17:54 [particle] yes, the beer-to-beer transport model is quite efficient
17:56 fglock there is a hmm - 10% - chance of /me going to YAPC::Europe
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17:56 [particle] no chance of that for me this year :(
17:56 [particle] i'm saving my vacation for a trek in nepal
17:56 perlmonkey2 nepal++
17:56 qmole does look like a good yapc this one
17:57 [particle] fglock: however, allison, chromatic, leo and others may be there
17:57 fglock but before that, YAPC::SA starts in 10 days :)
17:57 [particle] sao paulo?
17:57 fglock Porto Alegre
17:58 [particle] ah.
17:58 [particle] let me know when it's in cuzco, peru. i'll go back there in a heartbeat :)
17:58 fglock http://fisl.softwarelivre.org/8.0/papers/pub/
17:58 lambdabot Title: fisl8-2007 - Fórum Internacional Software Livre
17:59 fglock yeah, I've been in Cuzco - very nice :)
17:59 fglock the plan for YAPC::SA is to work in p6-in-p6; probably in the regex engine
18:00 Lorn fglock: hey :)
18:00 Lorn fglock: is YAPC::Brasil no? YAPC::SA is on Salvador :)
18:00 [particle] that's a good plan
18:01 fglock Lorn: I'm lost, too many conferences
18:01 Lorn fglock: hehe, did you see my msg? we need ideas :P
18:02 fglock Lorn: re plan - we could refactor kp6 regex compiler, to be able to parse the "STD" grammar
18:02 Lorn fglock: ok, i can study STD?
18:03 fglock Lorn: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm
18:03 Lorn fglock: or better, why i need to study in perl6 code?
18:03 eden_c joined perl6
18:03 eden_c fglock: ping
18:04 Lorn \o/
18:04 Lorn :P
18:04 fglock Lorn: this is supposed to help - it needs more work - http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/docs/FAQ.pod
18:05 fglock eden_c: pong
18:05 Lorn fglock: ok, tks
18:06 fglock Lorn: just checked: YAPC::SA is in Porto Alegre, YAPC::Brasil is in Salvador, YAPC::Sao_Paulo is in... Sao Paulo
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18:07 Lorn fglock: really? i confuse too :)
18:07 Lorn fglock: well, we need to "ping" argentina, rigth?
18:07 Lorn vitor
18:08 fglock sure
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18:12 moritz fglock: does kp6 use perl5 as a backend by default?
18:13 fglock moritz: there is no default, actually - it depends on what "plugins" you use
18:13 moritz fglock: and which are available, and working?
18:14 fglock moritz: looking
18:15 fglock moritz: you can compile p6-to-miniperl6, and then miniperl6-to-perl5 (or parrot, but that's incomplete)
18:16 moritz fglock: ok, thanks
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18:16 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
18:16 fglock or p6-to-perl5, in several different implementations; there are some experiments of perl6-to-C too
18:17 eden_c fglock: what's the address of the proxy you use again? I forgot to write it down the first time you told me :/
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18:18 fglock eden_c: proxy?
18:18 Lorn fglock: url to access #perl6 via web
18:19 fglock feather.perl6.nl - but you need to register with Juerd first (send him an email with your full name, address)
18:20 eden_c fglock: what's his email?
18:20 eden_c fglock: I'm using a horrible proxy that forces me to reconect every hour :/
18:20 DarkWolf84 i'm not using proxy
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18:21 eden_c I'm behind a firewall thats blocking IRC
18:22 eden_c fglock: what's Juerd's address
18:22 fglock [email@hidden.address]
18:23 fglock eden_c: please read the instructions there: http://feather.perl6.nl
18:23 lambdabot Title: Perl6 Community Development Server
18:25 fglock moritz: kp6 is "perl6-in-perl6", to some extent. It just didn't get much attention
18:25 moritz fglock: I noticed it ;)
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18:32 Juerd fglock: Heh, address isn't needed
18:33 prly__ joined perl6
18:34 fglock Juerd: ah, ok :)
18:36 Lorn fglock: only confirm, we devel in the hackthon "only" STD rigth?
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18:37 eden_c Juerd: just answered your reply
18:38 fglock Lorn: the idea is to improve a p6regex engine, in order to have STD parsed, and possibly compile
18:38 Lorn fglock: ok
18:43 fglock Lorn: don't take it too seriously - if I know myself, we will end up working on something completely different :)
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18:44 eden_c fglock: that's why it's going to be fun
18:44 Lorn fglock: ok, i understood :)
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18:52 fglock I wonder if pugs macros could possibly call a rule compiler from ext/
18:52 Tene http://www.trnicely.net/misc/vista.html
18:52 lambdabot Title: Windows Vista restricts GNU GCC apps to 32 MB
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18:56 moritz Tene: nice one ;)
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19:11 DarkWolf84 it's too early for fool's day jokes
19:11 DarkWolf84 :)
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19:22 fglock I can't get 'macro circumfix:<...>' to work
19:26 obra seen audreyt
19:27 moritz obra: try it with an '@' at the front
19:27 obra @seen autin
19:27 lambdabot autin is in #perl6. I don't know when autin last spoke.
19:28 obra Ayay nick completion
19:28 obra @seen audreyt
19:28 lambdabot audreyt is in #haskell-soc, #haskell and #perl6. I last heard audreyt speak 2d 1h 42m 28s ago.
19:28 Tene obra: audreyt had to take some time off to recover from some stressful life events.
19:28 obra Tene: Yep.
19:29 gaal [particle]: when are you planning to go?
19:35 [particle] gaal: to nepal? november
19:35 [particle] 2-25 or something
19:36 gaal sounds hella fun :)
19:37 [particle] indeed it does :)
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19:40 rofl is now known as mathlord
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19:46 manjuj [particle]: I haven't yet received the invite that was sent to me quite some time back, is this delay normal?
19:46 [particle] :(
19:46 prly_ joined perl6
19:46 manjuj or possibly the mail id was wrong?
19:47 [particle] sent to manju@gmail...
19:47 manjuj wrong :-(
19:47 [particle] is that correct? ah.
19:47 manjuj it is [email@hidden.address]
19:47 [particle] oh, i see
19:47 manjuj good that i asked :-)
19:47 [particle] i stripped the first bit, thinking it was a transport thing
19:47 manjuj :-)
19:48 manjuj could you please send it again?
19:49 [particle] in process as we type
19:49 manjuj ok. thanks
19:49 [particle] sent
19:49 manjuj thanks
19:50 manjuj got it. thanks once again!
19:50 [particle] welcome!
19:50 [particle] and you're welcome!
19:51 fglock @tell audreyt I can implement regexes in plain pugs using macros, it seems - it needs some cool syntax, like 'macro circumfix:</ />' and some way to deal with infix:<~~>
19:51 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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20:15 pasteling "fglock" at 201.54.129.80 pasted ""userland regexes"" (19 lines, 249B) at http://sial.org/pbot/23901
20:16 fglock this can be abused into an actual regex implementation
20:17 moritz that's sick... and cool ;)
20:22 fglock it only needs a few pugs-todo fixes, in order to allow native regex syntax
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20:54 pasteling "fglock" at 201.54.129.80 pasted "Error with pugs and m:P5/.../ ???" (38 lines, 1.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/23903
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