Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-03-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:28 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
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02:32 rindolf Hi all.
02:32 thorat hello
02:32 rindolf Hi thorat
02:32 rindolf thorat: what is your claim to fame?
02:33 thorat uh, none
02:34 thorat and you? ;)
02:34 rindolf thorat: http://www.shlomifish.org/
02:34 lambdabot Title: Shlomi Fish' Homepage
02:34 rindolf thorat: that contains links to everything.
02:35 rindolf thorat: do you have a Pugs commit bit?
02:35 rindolf lambdabot: hi.
02:35 rindolf lambdabot is impolite.
02:36 thorat nope
02:36 thorat how big is it now?
02:36 thorat pugs that is?
02:37 thorat I'll take a look and see if I can cruft it up a little bit ;)
02:38 rindolf thorat: there's a lot of code there.
02:38 rindolf They are in over r10K
02:38 thorat yes, and Haskell
02:39 thorat that means 1000K of equivalent C right?
02:39 rindolf 15446
02:39 rindolf thorat: who knows.
02:39 rindolf But maybe.
02:39 rindolf Of course, Haskell has some implementation problems.
02:39 rindolf ghc can only be compiled by a recent version of itself.
02:40 thorat well I've managed to compile it; and there are nightly's as well
02:40 thorat if you really need the bleeding edge
02:42 rindolf I know.
02:42 thorat and 6.6 is installed on my debian
02:42 rindolf But I also found Haskell impractical in many respects.
02:42 rindolf Some algorithms cannot be implemented in it well.
02:42 rindolf thorat: I have 6.6 here on MDV Cooker too.
02:42 thorat the stateful ones I guess
02:42 rindolf thorat: yeah.
02:43 thorat the imperative ones that is
02:43 rindolf Or ones that use array.
02:43 rindolf I got you.
02:43 thorat I've not used Haskell at all, but read a lot about it; lot's of papers
02:43 thorat lots
02:44 rindolf thorat: I wrote stuff in Haskell.
02:44 thorat I'm like that; I read a lot about programming but don't really program much outside of work
02:44 rindolf Nothing too serious, but stilll.
02:44 rindolf thorat: what do you do at work?
02:45 thorat at the moment, I'm writing Perl; but I'm mostly at school this winter
02:45 thorat before that I was programming Pocket PC
02:45 thorat win32 api programming in C++
02:46 rindolf Heh.
02:46 rindolf Yes, I remember the Win32 API programming.
02:47 rindolf I once programmed a clock for it for the Technion.
02:47 rindolf Got 99% at that course.
02:47 thorat ok
02:47 * thorat just googled Technion
02:48 thorat yes, it's more fun than MFC IMO
02:49 thorat it's a functional API, really
02:50 rindolf thorat: http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/comp​uters/education/opinion-on-the-technion/
02:50 lambdabot Title: My opinion on the Technion, http://tinyurl.com/28lpby
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03:35 pasteling "dustpyle_x2" at 209.169.127.17 pasted "trying to print '#' in front of each line of a file" (8 lines, 121B) at http://sial.org/pbot/23909
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05:59 * Tene hacks on a perl6 framework similar to SeaSide.
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06:07 Patterner is SeaSide that good?
06:07 Tene Dunno, but I looked at some slides and read some articles, and there are some interesting ideas there.
06:08 Tene I'm fighting between "build good infrastructure up front that can be re-used and add it to svn" and "hack something barely decent together so that you can start playing with the fun parts right away"
06:10 Patterner what is better for your karma? :)
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06:12 jisom more commits
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06:15 Tene Huh.  This is weird.
06:15 Tene use URI::Escape;
06:15 Tene *** Not a keyed value: VInt 0 at Prelude.pm line 671, column 18-25
06:16 Patterner it's a sign! switch to ruby!
06:17 Aankhen`` BLASPHEMY
06:17 * Patterner fights with wx-0.71 in the mean time
06:17 Aankhen`` BURN THE BLASPHEMER
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06:26 Aankhen`` ,696e.net) Quit
06:26 Aankhen`` ,696[22:53:37] <kerlnel200> mattmcc?
06:26 Aankhen`` O_O
06:26 Aankhen`` That's not right.
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06:34 Aankhen`` What is a "basal" class?
06:34 Aankhen`` The sentence is from S09: But anyone (including the main application) can request that any class stay open or basal, and the class closer/finalizer must honor that.
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06:51 Aankhen`` ?eval my @foo = <a b c d e>; say "@foo[]"
06:51 evalbot_r15808 OUTPUT[a b c d e␤] Bool::True
06:54 Tene Hmm.  URI uses a blessed string, it looks like.
07:01 Tene Can't quite figure out how to do that in pugs.
07:04 gaal Tene: I encountered that .kv-but-really-mmd-related problem a few weeks ago too
07:05 gaal iirc the dispatcher enters the pair multi for some reason
07:05 gaal I don't know why :-(
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07:15 * Aankhen`` waveth at gaal.
07:18 Aankhen`` "Unicode horizontal whitespace is counted as whitespace, but it's better not to use thin spaces where they will make adjoining tokens look like a single token." # I smell... obfuscation! =)
07:19 gaal hey Aankhen``! :)
07:19 Aankhen`` :-D
07:19 Aankhen`` Hacked anything interesting lately?
07:19 gaal not really
07:20 Aankhen`` Awww.
07:20 Aankhen`` Ah well, there's plenty of time. =)
07:20 Aankhen`` I've been re-reading synopses.  Still not grokking multislices though. :-(
07:20 gaal Aankhen``: re that thought, there was the proposal of Acme::Oneliner that encodes any program *really* in one line
07:20 Aankhen`` I suppose it would help if I weren't half-asleep.
07:20 Aankhen`` Heh, that would be fun.
07:20 gaal with zero-width whitespace
07:21 Aankhen`` Yowza.
07:21 gaal essentially, the file size encodes the program.
07:21 gaal because you turn the program into a unary number, and prepend "use Acme::Oneliner;" to it. :-)
07:21 Aankhen`` Zero-width space as in U+200B?
07:22 gaal yeah
07:22 Aankhen`` LOL.
07:22 Aankhen`` That would be so evil.
07:22 Aankhen`` I'd forgotten that character even exists.
07:22 gaal you can compress this; there are three other zero-width chars.
07:23 Aankhen`` Heh.
07:23 gaal that's okay, it's hard to lose it among all those widful characters
07:23 * Aankhen`` nods.
07:23 Aankhen`` I thought hair spaces were about as thin as it gets.
07:24 Aankhen`` Sorry if hair spaces don't actually exist... like I said, I'm half asleep, so I might be imagining things. 8-|
07:25 gaal otters have about 1k hairs in 1 sq. mm, so hairthin can be pretty thin.
07:25 Aankhen`` o_O
07:25 Aankhen`` Scary thought.
07:25 Aankhen`` Hmm, no wonder animators have such a hard time with hair.
07:26 Tene So do I keep hacking on trying to implement a blessed string, or do I give up and re-implement URI.pm while translating to p6?
07:26 Aankhen`` "re-implement URI.pm while translating to p6" == "port URI.pm to Perl 6"?
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07:27 gaal blessed string? I think you want a role that "does" Str...?
07:27 gaal but MO isn't totally landed yet so it prolly won't work completely.
07:28 Tene Yeah, p5 URI is a blessed string, and the methods modify $$self
07:28 gaal .oO( p5 does not have blessable strings, it has blessable scalars )
07:28 Tene Hmm.  I misunderstand, I suppose.
07:29 gaal let me look at the source...
07:29 Tene in _init
07:29 Tene my $self = bless \$str, $class;
07:30 gaal okay, that's a scalar that happens to contain a string
07:30 gaal you bless the container, not the string
07:31 Tene Ahh.  I misunderstood.
07:31 gaal well, the reference to the container, anyway
07:31 Tene nodnod
07:32 Tene I don't think I quite know enough to implement this correctly in the most useful way.
07:32 gaal then implement this incorrectly in a still somewhat useful way
07:32 gaal and people will make it correct and more useful :)
07:33 Tene 'kay
07:33 gaal or shall I say, more correct
07:37 gaal [ot, but hilarious] http://web.archive.org/web/200511190416​10/www.mcgladrey-family.us/kayne/archiv​es/2003/06/06/making_junk_mail_illegal
07:37 lambdabot Title: Making junk mail illegal, http://tinyurl.com/2arrx2
07:37 Tene Heh.
07:39 Aankhen`` LOL.
07:40 Tene Heh.  That's funny.
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08:17 Aankhen`` Is a tertiary sigil a thigil?
08:17 Aankhen`` # just musing.
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11:09 moritz nothingmuch: ping
11:10 moritz anyway...
11:10 moritz @tell nothingmuch on http://perlcabal.org/~nothi​ngmuch/harrorth/doc/02.kwid there is a dead link, the one to the forth tutorial (moved to somewhere under http://www.jforth.org/ but I can't reach that page)
11:10 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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11:45 DarkWolf84 why there is no anything for the references at the synposises
11:46 moritz DarkWolf84: hm? the synopsys _are_ the specs - and anything that is not mentioned stays the same as in perl 5
11:46 DarkWolf84 ok
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13:50 lichtkind does anybody knoe here when larry was employed by JPL?
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14:01 svnbot6 r15809 | kudra++ | Ready to publish
14:04 xerox lichtkind: is that the Jet Propulsion Lab?
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14:07 pasteling "evalbot_r15808" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (325 lines, 18.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/23912
14:10 lichtkind xerox: jes
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14:35 lichtkind TimToady: ping?
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15:14 moritz can anybody tell me what the difference between "regex" and "token" is?
15:14 lichtkind moritz: token are much simpler
15:15 lichtkind simpler rules
15:15 moritz lichtkind: I mean the p6 keywords
15:15 lichtkind thats what im talking about
15:15 lichtkind in rules you can be made out of rules
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15:16 moritz but that's not a semantic difference
15:16 lichtkind token are smallest parts per def
15:16 moritz so tokens my not consist of other tokens/rules?
15:16 lichtkind yes
15:16 lichtkind thats one differenc
15:16 lichtkind e
15:16 lichtkind they also have smaller possibilities in syntax
15:16 moritz lichtkind++ #thanks ;)
15:17 lichtkind gerne
15:17 moritz wow, Germany is winning in all competitions of the Table Tennis European Championship
15:17 moritz (and probably nobody takes notice ;)
15:18 lichtkind moritz: and nobody believed it enyway
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15:22 * moritz currently teaches his (p5) offline CMS to do syntax hilighting
15:22 moritz moose
15:23 lichtkind moritz cool maybe i could use that well
15:23 moritz lichtkind: svn co https://casella.verplant.org/svn/moritz/mowyw/
15:24 moritz lichtkind: the idea is to pipe anything in [[[syntax perl6]]]$perl6_code_here[[[endsyntax]]] through Text::VimColor
15:25 lichtkind thats no solution for me
15:25 lichtkind by
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16:07 spinclad moritz: see S05.  C< token { ... } > is just short for C< regex :ratchet { ... } >, so it never backtracks at that level.  otherwise equivalent.
16:08 moritz spinclad: thanks
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17:13 gaal spinclad: hey! :)
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17:59 DarkWolf84 how to check the type of object
18:00 luqui ?eval "foo".type
18:00 luqui no evalbot
18:00 evalbot_r15808 is now known as evalbot_r15809
18:00 evalbot_r15809 Error: No such method in class Str: &type
18:00 luqui ?eval "foo".ref
18:00 evalbot_r15809 Error: No such method in class Str: &ref
18:00 luqui hmm
18:00 luqui ?eval "foo".class
18:00 evalbot_r15809 Error: No such method in class Str: &class
18:00 moritz ?eval "foo".WHAT
18:00 evalbot_r15809 ::Str
18:00 luqui ahh, the mm stuff
18:01 moritz ?eval print "foo is a string" if "foo".WHAT eq "Str";
18:01 evalbot_r15809 OUTPUT[foo is a string] Bool::True
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18:02 * moritz wants a generate $foo.WHY that returns 42 ;-)
18:02 moritz s/generate/general/
18:02 DarkWolf84 :)
18:03 DarkWolf84 that will be interesting idea :P
18:03 DarkWolf84 thank u btw
18:04 moritz and propably p6 has a rather easy way to implement such a feature in p6 itself
18:04 moritz DarkWolf84: what for?
18:04 gaal $romans.WHEREFORE_REJOICE_W​HAT_CONQUEST_BRINGS_HE_HOME
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18:04 DarkWolf84 i forgot the method
18:04 gaal you just need a multi in * for that.
18:06 DarkWolf84 btw my version says only type not ::type
18:07 DarkWolf84 ?eval my $a=2; say $a.WHAT;
18:07 evalbot_r15809 OUTPUT[Int␤] Bool::True
18:08 moritz DarkWolf84: the '::' only comes out in the interactive version, eg if you don't use it,
18:08 moritz ?eval 2.WHAT
18:08 evalbot_r15809 ::Int
18:09 moritz ?eval ~2.WHAT
18:09 evalbot_r15809 "Int"
18:09 DarkWolf84 that is from evalbot
18:09 moritz ~ forces string context, so the "::" disappears
18:09 moritz DarkWolf84: if you run pugs interactively you will see the "::" as well
18:11 DarkWolf84 hm :: only appeares in constant context
18:13 DarkWolf84 ?eval 2.WHAT; my $a=2; say $a.WHAT;
18:13 evalbot_r15809 OUTPUT[Int␤] Bool::True
18:13 DarkWolf84 ?eval say 2.WHAT; my $a=2; say $a.WHAT;
18:13 evalbot_r15809 OUTPUT[Int␤Int␤] Bool::True
18:13 DarkWolf84 ?eval say 2.WHAT;
18:13 evalbot_r15809 OUTPUT[Int␤] Bool::True
18:14 DarkWolf84 ?eval say 2.WHAT.perl;
18:14 evalbot_r15809 OUTPUT[::Int␤] Bool::True
18:14 DarkWolf84 i got it
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20:28 Leibsle !seen lichtkind
20:29 Aankhen`` lichtkind was last seen being eaten by Aankhen``, that was 4hrs ago.
20:29 moritz Leibsle: I saw lichtkind leaving #perl6 roughly 5 hours ago
20:29 Leibsle moritz, thanks :)
20:30 Leibsle i was still in frankfurt to that time
20:30 moritz Leibsle: and if you want a bot to answer, use @ instead of ! ;-)
20:30 moritz Leibsle: so where are you now?
20:30 Leibsle ah, good tip
20:30 Leibsle i am now back to Reutlingen
20:30 Leibsle 240 km more southern
20:30 moritz ok ;)
20:31 Leibsle :P
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20:31 moritz #perl6 is full of bots, sometimes you don't know which to ask
20:31 * Leibsle nods and smiles
20:32 Leibsle but i like bots if they are peaceful
20:33 * Aankhen`` brings his warmongering bot in to start a fight with Leibsle.
20:33 Leibsle :-/
20:34 Leibsle war = 'not good';
20:34 Aankhen`` Can't modify constant item in scalar assignment
20:34 Leibsle eval: $war = 'not good';
20:34 buubot Leibsle:  not good
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20:34 Leibsle see. buubot said so
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20:51 svnbot6 r15810 | Jedai++ | t/examples/99problems/problem90.t more perlish, problem91.t pass his test
20:54 moritz Jedai++ # really more perlish, though a bit longer iirc ;-)
20:56 Jedai Well in fact I already changed the code in my last commit to use this method
20:56 Jedai this time I just made minor changes
20:56 Jedai I don't know if my first change was really a good idea
20:57 moritz Jedai: my original implementation was in C, so it was not perlish at all - just fast in C ;-)
20:57 Jedai it cut the execution time by at least a factor three
20:57 Jedai Everything is fast in C !
20:58 moritz not quite, if you scale it to the $n-Queen's Problem ;)
20:58 Jedai See problem91.t for an algorithm who ought to be fast (it's not even backtracking) but is slowed down by implementation issues
20:59 Jedai (I guess all those objects aren't so light...)
20:59 Jedai moritz: Yeah, the new code should scale better I think
20:59 Jedai even in C
21:01 moritz would be an interesting comparison - afaict there are more array operations and less backtracking involved...
21:01 moritz I guess as long as all arrays fit into the cache it's faster ;)
21:02 Jedai Yeah, and then slower if it doesn't
21:02 Jedai for sure !! :D
21:06 Jedai Well on my computer for the 8-Queen's Problem it went from 1'40" to 20' so I changed it, maybe I should have put both method in. I lack experience in this field (contributing an Open Source project)
21:06 Jedai What do you think ?
21:07 moritz Jedai: no, it's fine... the best method wins ;)
21:07 moritz Jedai: and the old one still lives in the SVN repository  - if somebody really cares ;-)
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22:03 Aankhen`` ?eval <<:a(1) :!b>>
22:03 evalbot_r15809 is now known as evalbot_r15810
22:03 evalbot_r15810 (":a(1)", ":!b")
22:04 Aankhen`` ?eval <<:a(1) :b(2)>>
22:04 evalbot_r15810 (":a(1)", ":b(2)")
22:04 Aankhen`` ?eval «a b c d»
22:04 evalbot_r15810 ("a", "b", "c", "d")
22:04 Aankhen`` ?eval «:a(1) :!b c d»
22:05 evalbot_r15810 (":a(1)", ":!b", "c", "d")
22:05 Aankhen`` Poop.
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22:14 Jedai What shoul it do ?
22:14 Jedai s/shoul/should/
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22:15 Aankhen`` Jedai: :!b is supposed to be equivalent to a => 0 in P5.
22:15 Aankhen`` Er.
22:15 Aankhen`` b => 0.
22:15 Aankhen`` Not a => 0.
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22:30 Aankhen`` ?eval "\c[NEGATED DOUBLE VERTICAL BAR DOUBLE RIGHT TURNSTILE]"
22:30 evalbot_r15810 "⊯"
22:32 moritz evalbot_r15810: that's a good answer ;)
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23:02 Jedai ?eval :!b
23:02 evalbot_r15810 ("b" => Bool::False)
23:03 Jedai Aanhen`` : But doesn't << >> turn everything but variables into strings ?
23:03 Jedai ?eval $a = "o"; <<a $a b>>
23:03 evalbot_r15810 ("a", "o", "b")
23:03 Juerd IIRC, it even splits variables if they're not quoted
23:03 Juerd ?eval $a = "o o"; <<f $a>>
23:03 evalbot_r15810 ("f", "o", "o")
23:04 Juerd ?eval $a = "o o"; <<f "$a">>
23:04 evalbot_r15810 ("f", "o o")
23:04 Juerd Just like shells do.
23:04 Jedai Cool (but confusing)
23:04 Juerd Not confusing once you know it :)
23:04 Juerd And since many of us use shells all the time, we'll probably as a community learn the semantics quickly :)
23:05 Jedai I guess you can think of it as a 2-step process, like the regex interpolation in Perl5
23:06 Juerd Don't remind me of that.
23:07 Juerd Because it reminds me of /$foo/ in Perl 6 being /"$foo"/ rather than /<$foo>/
23:07 Juerd So that's a slight inconsistency between // and <<>>
23:13 Jedai The regex interpolation in Perl6 is much better off like IMHO
23:14 Jedai Since that's what most people expect when they first encounter it in Perl5
23:17 Juerd I doubt both the reasoning and the validity
23:20 Aankhen`` Oh, I guess I misunderstood the angles.
23:20 Aankhen`` Thanks. :-)
23:20 Jedai My experience with Perl newbies (which aren't always that bright anyway) seems to suggest so. But I never taught Perl formally, so I guess you might know better.
23:22 Aankhen`` Error: Range operation compromised due to sorting of delta after gamma.  Burst into flames? (y/y)
23:24 dduncan question, what is the MANIFEST.SKIP entry to match any file containing parenthesis?  a line with just \( doesn't seem to work
23:25 Jedai Is there a way to write a lazy iterator in Pugs actually, to get the same behaviour as filehandles ?
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23:28 moritz Pugs is turing complete... *duck* ;-)
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23:29 Aankhen`` ?eval Pair.does(Str)
23:29 evalbot_r15810 Bool::False
23:30 Jedai Well I can write a lazy iterator, you're right in this sense, don't duck ! ;) But at a syntaxical level I wondered if I could use it in a for like a "=filehandle"
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23:37 Jedai ?eval ~:a
23:37 evalbot_r15810 "a\t1"
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23:55 moritz ?eval "foo bar" ~~ m/<ident><ws><ident>/
23:55 evalbot_r15810 *** Cannot parse regex: <ident><ws><ident>␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
23:56 moritz what's the error?
23:57 moritz and is it intended that $<ident> is undef (instead of, eg an array of match object)?
23:58 labuser joined perl6

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