Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 moritz polettix: should I add a failing test case, or do you want to do that?
00:00 * moritz is studying physics and is fairly confident that this _is_ wrong ;)
00:01 polettix moritz: I know I should, but I don't have enough will/time/power to upgrade ghc :/
00:01 moritz polettix: to what?
00:01 dduncan which is abbreviated to "tuits"
00:01 polettix probably it's time that I upgrade, at last...
00:02 polettix moritz: there has been a mandatory upgrade in ghc used for pugs a few months ago
00:03 moritz polettix: ok, so you're talking about ghc 6.6
00:03 moritz polettix: because now 6.7 is out...
00:03 moritz polettix: and I haven't upgraded, because Debian "to-be-stable" etch doesn't have it
00:03 overkordbaever left perl6
00:04 polettix yes, I stopped at 6.4.2
00:04 geoffb And in any case, ghc 6.6 under etch works fine  (that's the one I use)
00:05 geoffb .oO( Dangit, Debian, get Etch out the door.  I want testing to start getting real updates, and not just week after week of translation fixes! )
00:06 moritz geoffb: won't be long... a week or so
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00:06 geoffb moritz: oh thank $deity
00:08 * geoffb wonders whether Debian Etch or CentOS 5 will release first ....
00:08 moritz geoffb: at least that's what Andreas Barth wrote a few days ago on d-devel-announce
00:08 * moritz wonders if perl6 or duke nukem forever will release first ;-)
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00:09 geoffb Perl 6, clearly.  DNF is a self-fulfilling prophecy
00:09 avarab is now known as avar
00:09 moritz geoffb: a month ago I saw on amazon.com that you could preorder DNF - with a release date somwhere in autumn 2007 ;-)
00:10 moritz geoffb: ok, what about The Hurd?
00:10 geoffb moritz: wow.  Very ... optimistic.
00:10 geoffb You know, I sincerely wonder how anyone manages to continue pitching DNF for continued funding.
00:11 geoffb Well, heck, at least you can sortof run Debian on that ... prolly about as well as say Debian/NetBSD, but then I've never used either one ....
00:12 moritz geoffb: same for me... but when did they start? somwhere end 80's? 90's?
00:13 moritz ok, there aren't really many hurd developers left
00:13 moritz some 4 making regular contributions I heard lately
00:13 polettix moritz: I don't find Haskell 6.7 (http://haskell.org/ghc/download.html)
00:13 lambdabot Title: The Glasgow Haskell Compiler
00:13 geoffb Well, hmmm.  Doom came out in what, '93 or so?  So DN must have been around the same time, and DNF probably started mid-90's then.  We must have already crossed the decade point.
00:14 moritz polettix: maybe it's not yet final
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00:15 geoffb OK, must revert to pumpkin form now.
00:15 geoffb commute &
00:20 svnbot6 r15825 | moritz++ | added test for exponentation op in complex context, polettix++
00:20 dduncan question: are any of you aware of either programming languages that allow symbols or identifiers to be the empty string (only possible with delimited symbols/identifiers), or file systems that allow file names to be the empty string?
00:21 dduncan I know that a hash key can be the empty string, so theoretically, allowing an empty for either of the above seems reasonable
00:21 moritz dduncan: I know of none
00:21 moritz dduncan: and I think that it might be reasonable, but it is counter-intuitive
00:22 moritz dduncan: why would you store something in nothing?
00:23 dduncan if you conceptualize that an entity name is a string, and a name can include any characters, and a string can be empty, it wouldn't seem unreasonable for an entity whose name is the empty string
00:23 dduncan if the language already supports delimited identifiers, or $($foo), then $foo could be the empty string and it technically should work
00:23 moritz dduncan: but if you are programming, what kind of data would you store in a variable with an empty name?
00:24 moritz you could use $, @ and % in perl ;-)
00:24 dduncan it could be used either for a default value or for a root namespace
00:24 * polettix compiles ghc...
00:24 dduncan eg, a path in unix has parts delimited by /, and the root doesn't have anything except the /
00:25 moritz dduncan: yes, but it has the "/", and if you remove that, you still have "."
00:25 moritz dduncan: you for UNIX paths you always have a non-empty alias
00:25 dduncan well anyway, I'm going to experiment with supporting empty-string identifiers, and see what comes out of it in practice
00:25 moritz but defaults are an interesting idea
00:26 moritz dduncan: what kind of language are you designing?
00:26 dduncan a similar argument could be made for, a hash allows an empty-string key, so what value would you associate with it?
00:26 Juerd It'd make some sense if $_ were called just $ :)
00:26 Juerd Although that'd pose a huge problem with $.foo :)
00:26 polettix dduncan: while I can understand a rationale for an empty hash key, I don't fully get the benefits of an empty variable identifier
00:26 dduncan if you use a hash as a name-space
00:27 dduncan in many ways, a hash and a namespace are very similar conceptually, or some would say identical
00:27 Juerd polettix: In Perl 6, the empty-named variables $, @, and %, represent the current invocant ("self object")
00:27 moritz dduncan: so would you allow variable names with whitespaces?
00:27 polettix Juerd: you see? now I can get the benefits!
00:27 dduncan yes
00:28 dduncan but I will point out that in my language, all identifiers are delimited normally
00:28 Juerd polettix: Consider the amount of typing you'll save in an average well-factored class :)
00:28 dduncan with non-delimited versions allowed for brevity in some cases
00:28 dduncan note that in any file system, a file name can have spaces in it
00:28 dduncan it is just as reasonable for identifiers to, if they are delimited
00:28 Juerd Not in a 8.3 fat system :)
00:28 moritz dduncan: not in FAT16
00:29 dduncan okay
00:29 moritz Juerd: damned, you're faster ;)
00:29 Juerd moritz: It's not about 16 versus 32.
00:29 Juerd fat16 supports long file names.
00:29 Juerd Just not big disks
00:29 dduncan but it is common in modern systems to support any (more or less) characters in file names
00:29 dduncan also, lots of database engines let you name entities with spaces or any characters in the names ... SQL calls them delimited identifiers or something
00:29 Juerd dduncan: No, Windows doesn't let you use a colon (":") in a filename
00:29 dduncan in any event, what I am writing is a database language
00:30 Juerd dduncan: And that's incredibly annoying because colons are used in timestamps a lot.
00:30 dduncan are you sure Windows prevents the : at the filesystem level, or just in the UI?
00:30 moritz what does linux has as restrictions one file name? anything execpt '\0' and '/'?
00:30 Juerd Filesystem level.
00:30 dduncan okay
00:30 Juerd FAT could handle it, but the API refuses, as does the spec.
00:31 Juerd Same for NTFS
00:31 dduncan okay, in any event, I was just citing file systems for cases for reasonableness
00:31 wolverian so who likes newlines in filenames? :)
00:31 Juerd "If we started supporting it now, that would be incompatible with older versions" is the argument for not enabling the feature. It's not a technical issue.
00:31 Juerd wolverian: I'd use them if they could trick users using ls(1)
00:31 dduncan that's what emulation layers are for
00:32 wolverian Juerd, aw, ls doesn't print them?
00:32 Juerd wolverian: No, it substitutes them with question marks :(
00:32 wolverian how annoying
00:32 dduncan eg, on Mac OS X, file system delimiters are typically either / or : depending on which toolbox an application was written to, and it all just works thanks to emulation layers
00:32 Juerd wolverian: But surprisingly useful :)
00:33 dduncan and in any event, file names can contain either character, afaik
00:33 Juerd Unix filenames cannot contain /.
00:33 Juerd Slash and nullbyte are not usable. All other byte values are.
00:33 wolverian hm, I thought : was not allowed either, but I guess that's wrong.
00:33 Juerd I'm not sure, at all, how unixish systems handle unicode for filenames.
00:34 Juerd wolverian: : is allowed just fine
00:34 moritz touch : works ;)
00:34 wolverian (some compilers seem to use it as a filename:linenumber separator, though.. that's weird and breaks.)
00:35 moritz put all your binaries into b:in, push b:in onto $PATH and write a bug report that your binaries are not found ;-)
00:35 moritz wolverian: no, you have to parse it from the back
00:35 moritz <name>:<digit>+
00:35 moritz no breaks
00:36 dduncan interesting ... I just used the Mac OS X 10.4.8 Finder to make a file named "foo/bar", and the Terminal shows it as "foo:bar", moreover, I made a file in the terminal using a :, and the Finder shows it as a slash ... the terminal won't let me use a /
00:36 wolverian moritz, yeah.
00:36 moritz <name>:<digit>+$ that is
00:36 Juerd juerd@lanova:~/tmp/foo$ perl -le'my $fn = join "", map { chr($_) eq "/" ? () : chr($_) } 1..255; open my $fh, ">", $fn or die $!'
00:36 dduncan that's probably the emulation layer
00:36 Juerd juerd@lanova:~/tmp/foo$ ls
00:36 Juerd ??????????????????????????????? !"#$%&'()*+,-.0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
00:36 Juerd See? All 253 byte values.
00:36 Juerd Eh, 254
00:36 offby1 quit swearing!  This is a family channel.
00:36 dduncan afaik, the Finder is a Carbon program, meaning it thinks delimiters are :
00:36 * offby1 plugs his ears
00:37 Juerd offby1: This is not a family channel.
00:37 dduncan I mean, path separators
00:37 Patterner I think I used the Finder on the Apple ][
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00:37 Juerd Patterner: I think you shouldn't use drugs
00:37 dduncan I've used an Apple 2, but I don't recall what the name of its file manager was
00:37 Patterner Filer :)
00:38 Patterner Q)uit U)pdate R)un
00:38 moritz anyway, bed++
00:38 Juerd Yea, bed++
00:38 Juerd Good idea
00:38 Juerd z
00:40 moritz perlbot: karma bed
00:40 perlbot Karma for bed: 6
00:41 Patterner perlbot: karma coffee
00:41 perlbot Karma for coffee: -2
00:41 Patterner this is *not* right
00:41 polettix bed++ &
00:41 moritz perlbot: karma svnbot6
00:41 perlbot Karma for svnbot6: 1
00:41 moritz ;-)
00:42 moritz 'night
00:42 Patterner tea++
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01:18 Aankhen`` Did "coerce:<as>" fall into oblivion?
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06:28 Aankhen`` ?eval 10 xx 5
06:28 evalbot_r15824 is now known as evalbot_r15825
06:28 evalbot_r15825 (10, 10, 10, 10, 10)
06:32 Aankhen`` ?eval my @foo = (1, <2 3 4 5>); @foo.perl.say
06:32 evalbot_r15825 OUTPUT[[1, "2", "3", "4", "5"]␤] Bool::True
06:32 Aankhen`` ?eval my constant @foo = (1, <2 3 4 5>); @foo.perl.say
06:32 evalbot_r15825 OUTPUT[[1, "2", "3", "4", "5"]␤] Bool::True
06:32 Aankhen`` ?eval my constant @foo = (1, <2 3 4 5>); @foo[5] = 6;
06:32 evalbot_r15825 \6
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06:56 Aankhen`` Tene: Ping.
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08:21 polettix my local mirror is stuck to 15820, does any other have the same problem?
08:24 * polettix at last realises that http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs might be a bit outdated
08:24 lambdabot Title: Revision 15820: /
08:25 Juerd polettix: It moved to svn.pugscode.org
08:25 Aankhen`` Aye.
08:25 polettix is there a page/hint for switching to the new repository?
08:26 * polettix would like to RTFM
08:27 Juerd There is, but I don't know
08:27 Juerd You could of course just check out new.
08:27 polettix this would mean re-mirroring... I hope this is not really necessary
08:28 Juerd It probably isn't
08:28 integral svk mirror --relocate surely
08:28 Juerd I'm surprised that svn.openfoundry.org was kept up t odate all the time
08:28 polettix I'll ask in the svk channel, thanks :)
08:28 polettix oh, I'll see it as well, integral
08:30 polettix \o/ relocation successful, thanks :)
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10:32 lichtkind audreyt: i need a nice and free(GFDL) pisture of you for wikipedia pugs article , have you one?
10:33 moritz lichtkind: do you notice that the english Audrey_Tang article has one?
10:34 lichtkind moritz: thats the one we actuelly use and its not everybodys favor
10:34 lichtkind i like it but for many its pain in the eyes
10:36 lichtkind but hej i foun another in wiki commons http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Audrey_Tang_2.jpg
10:37 lichtkind Leibsle: moin :)
10:41 avarab is now known as avar
10:54 moritz lichtkind: http://perl-6.de/ my new German project, feedback is welcome
10:54 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - Programmieren für Faule
10:55 lichtkind ok i link it om rurrentyl busy :)
10:55 moritz lichtkind: no problem, thx
10:58 lichtkind moritz: inserted :    * [[http://perl-6.de][perl-6.de]] deutsche Wiki zu Perl6 von Moritz Lenz
11:01 moritz lichtkind: das ist kein Wiki ;-)
11:01 moritz lichtkind: vielleicht bekommt es noch eins, aber bisher nicht
11:01 lichtkind achso die buttons sahen so aus
11:01 lichtkind ok
11:02 lichtkind ich änder das
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11:13 lichtkind moritz: ---++ weitere Informationen:
11:13 lichtkind   * [[http://perl-6.de][perl-6.de]] deutsche Perl6-Seite von Moritz Lenz
11:13 moritz lichtkind: danke
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11:15 lichtkind gerne
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13:13 manjuj Hi. I am trying to install pugs on a machine where I am not the root. At the last step, when I do "make install", it tries to mkdir /usr/local/lib/perl6, and so fails. I did export PUGS_BUILD_OPTS=install_dir=/home/gphilip/local/  as mentioned in the INSTALL file, but that didn't help. What is a workaround?
13:14 kolibrie most of us do not install, but run from the build
13:15 lumi_ Maybe you can use chroot or fakeroot?
13:15 moritz manjuj: iirc the INSTALL file mentions as well thet PREFIX is broken :(
13:16 manjuj kolibrie: that means you use the ./pugs executable in the build directory, right?
13:16 kolibrie yep
13:17 kolibrie I have a symlink from my pugs executable to ~/bin/pugs
13:17 manjuj lumi_: those are not an option for me
13:17 manjuj everybody: thanks
13:17 kolibrie manjuj: you're welcome
13:18 manjuj Another question: I would like to start contributing, but don't know where to start.
13:18 kolibrie do you have a commit bit?
13:19 manjuj Is there some specific task that I can start on?
13:19 manjuj kolibrie: yes
13:19 kolibrie manjuj: good, that's the first step
13:19 manjuj I have started on the Apocrypha
13:19 kolibrie mostly, we just contribute where we have interest and when we have time
13:20 manjuj kolibrie: I have interest and time, but don't know a specific task to start with. I know C, and am learning Haskell.
13:20 kolibrie I've written tests, and I play a lot with fglock's Pugs::Compiler::Rule, and give suggestions
13:21 manjuj Is there a todo list somewhere, so that I can look over the list and start tinkering with something?
13:21 gaal manjuj: http://dev.pugscode.org/ and follow "all open tickets"
13:21 lambdabot Title: Pugs - Trac
13:21 manjuj gaal: thanks
13:22 moritz manjuj: our _big_ todo list are the failing test cases ;-)
13:22 gaal np
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13:26 manjuj is it ok to use darcs with the pugs source, or should i use svn only?
13:26 gaal the dacrs mirror is read-only
13:26 manjuj gaal:ok
13:26 manjuj so i have to use svn if i have to do commits
13:26 gaal or svk. :-)
13:27 moritz manjuj: do you have a commit bit?
13:27 manjuj moritz: yes
13:27 moritz very well ;-)
13:27 TimToady another way to get at the tasks is via putter's picture of the project.
13:27 TimToady see http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/project_planning/a_dependency_graph.png
13:27 lambdabot Title: /project_planning/a_dependency_graph.png - Pugs - Trac, http://tinyurl.com/yu9fvz
13:28 moritz TimToady: I'm a bit fixed on design by contract... in Eiffel you can label pre- and postconditions...
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13:28 moritz TimToady: so that when one fails, it's easier to locate...
13:29 moritz TimToady: or even to see what the problem might be without looking at the source code
13:29 moritz TimToady: do you think that might be a good idea for p6 as well?
13:30 TimToady see S04:918
13:30 moritz ok
13:31 TimToady and S06:1562
13:32 TimToady biab &
13:33 moritz I meant something like PRE { not_zero: $x < 0; is_valid_foo: foo($x) > 0; }
13:34 moritz with explicit names for single PREs and POSTs
13:34 moritz so maybe not_zero: PRE { $x != 0 }; is_valid_foo: PRE { foo($x)> 0}
13:35 TimToady maybe not_zero: PRE { $x < 0 }; is_valid_foo: PRE { foo($x) > 0 }
13:35 TimToady he
13:35 TimToady heh
13:35 moritz is that already in the spec?
13:36 * moritz is overwhelmed by the shear mass of text in the specs ;-)
13:36 * PerlJam is sitting here wondering what "maybe" means in perl6  ;-)
13:36 TimToady no, but valid syntax, and presumably whatever processes the PRE could look up the label
13:37 moritz ok, so it would be just a small step
13:37 TimToady actually, "maybe" is used in contend blocks.
13:37 gaal maybe every default exception handler could print "near label FOO:" if there's a FOO nearby
13:37 gaal (regardles of DBC)
13:37 gaal s/s/ss/
13:38 moritz nice idea
13:38 TimToady I don't know what dbc does with the labels; is it more than reporting?
13:38 gaal though perhaps for autodocumentation value, DBC wants more textual names
13:38 moritz TimToady: in Eiffel not
13:39 PerlJam seems like it would be better to have some syntax like this then:   PRE :labeld("foo") { ... }
13:39 PerlJam er, labeled
13:39 PerlJam (if it's just for reporting)
13:40 TimToady or perhaps there's something that can be done with label => ($x < 1)
13:40 manjuj what is "smoke testing" ? where can i read up on that? I tried "make test", and it fails with "runcompiler...openFile does not exist...". I remember seeing sometime during the compilation that some package required for smoke testing is missing, though i don't remember what.
13:40 TimToady back briefly in 20 minutes &
13:41 manjuj i meant "make smoke"
13:41 avar smoke testing is just when you submit `make test' results to a central server, usually automatically
13:41 gaal manjuj: openFile does not exist probably means someone forgot "-e" somewhere, tracking that down would be great
13:41 moritz and producing a nice HTML output
13:41 gaal manjuj: see http://smoke.pugscode.org/
13:41 lambdabot Title: Pugs Smoke Reports
13:41 manjuj gaal: thanks
13:42 gaal click on one of the rightmost >>s
13:42 manjuj all: thanks
13:42 gaal if you want to perform a smoke yourself, "cpan Task::Smoke"
13:42 gaal Can take about 45min, give or take three hours
13:43 manjuj so am i not supposed to do "make smoke", just "cpan Task::Smoke" ?
13:43 gaal oh no, make smoke; but you need some Perl 5 modules for that
13:43 gaal so unless you happen to have them installed on your system already, run the cpan command above to get them.
13:43 gaal (once per machine).
13:43 manjuj got it
13:44 manjuj but that too would require root permissions, wouldn't it?
13:44 gaal not necessarily
13:44 manjuj ok
13:44 manjuj i'll try
13:44 gaal if you habitually install stuff from cpan to your ~/perl or something, it's no different
13:45 manjuj ok
13:46 gaal I can't look into that error that you saw, so just for the sake of whoever wants/can debug it: runcompiler is a small wrapper that we generate that just calls the haskell compiler with the correct local package paths and stuff
13:47 gaal apparently one call to it somewhere breaks -- manjuj if you still have the output from 'make' that shows it please paste it here: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
13:47 manjuj in a minute
13:47 gaal ..with sufficient context to see where it occurs
13:47 gaal great, manjuj++
13:47 gaal bbiab &
13:53 manjuj The first error I get is "ghc-pkg-wrapper: ~/download/pugs/third-party/installed/packages.conf: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory)", and it looks like something is missing in my local installation, rather than something to do with the source.
13:56 manjuj gaal: would it be still useful if i paste the output from 'make' ?
13:56 TimToady back (briefly)
13:57 moritz manjuj: if you can resolve this issue by installing prerequiries it's not usefull
13:59 gaal manjuj: did you complete one 'make'?
14:00 manjuj gaal: no, i am doing that cpan install now
14:01 gaal manjuj: I meant, of pugs itself. That file, packages.conf, is only created when you build pugs
14:02 DarkWolf84 how I can make labels for last in perl6
14:02 manjuj gaal: yes, i did one make (actually several), the error comes when i do 'make install' after that
14:03 manjuj sorry, the error comes when i do 'make smoke'
14:03 gaal oh, I thought it was in make smoke... so okay, it's probably related to your more general install
14:03 gaal er, ESCdd, okay. :-)
14:03 manjuj 'make install' has some other error -- no root permission etc
14:03 gaal nodnod
14:04 DarkWolf84 make test fails too for me
14:07 TimToady DarkWolf84: loop labels work the same as in Perl 5.
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14:08 PerlJam TimToady: btw, what precipitated the recent S05 changes?  Did you have an aha! moment or something?
14:09 gaal no, it was April Fool's day, and he had a ha-ha! moment.
14:09 TimToady I made a list of metachars and non-metachars and realized that 2/3 were already meta
14:09 PerlJam gaal: heh
14:09 TimToady and I'd just got done bragging on PerlMonks that P6 kept you from memorizing arbitrary lists of exceptions
14:09 gaal (brad driven development)++
14:09 gaal brag, too
14:10 Limbic_Region someone hit me with the clue stick.  What is the syntax for initializing multiple variables in a C for loop?
14:10 PerlJam TimToady: Well, I have to tell you that when I read your modifications I thought "why wasn't it this way to begin with?"
14:10 gaal Limbic_Region: commas
14:10 PerlJam Limbic_Region: for (i =0, j =1, k = 5; ... )
14:11 gaal Limbic_Region: for (x = 0, y = 0; x > y ; x++, y--) {...}
14:11 Limbic_Region thanks
14:13 TimToady PerlJam: It was one of those things that is only obvious in retrospect, like the patch program.
14:13 TimToady well, I've gotta commute from Williamsburg to Baltimore, so I'll be offline for a bit.
14:13 PerlJam TimToady++ have some karma for your trip  :-)
14:14 forsaken joined perl6
14:14 TimToady thanks
14:14 TimToady bbl &
14:14 gaal I liked the pictures
14:14 gaal (the examples)
14:14 forsaken joined perl6
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14:38 kolibrie TimToady: hey, you'll drive right past me (Fairfax)
14:39 kolibrie and Limbic_Region, too, I believe
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16:16 moritz should [+] @f be the same as reduce &infix<+>, @f?
16:23 cmarcelo joined perl6
16:23 fglock joined perl6
16:23 cmarcelo fglock: ping
16:23 cmarcelo moose
16:24 fglock cmarcelo: ola
16:25 fglock cmarcelo: you asked about mp6-in-pugs,
16:25 fglock the idea is to generate code that pugs can run,
16:25 fglock but the regex engine compiles to perl6 code
16:26 fglock so mp6-in-pugs doesn't depend on PCR or PGE
16:26 Lorn joined perl6
16:26 moritz ?eval 4i ~~ Num
16:27 evalbot_r15825 Bool::False
16:27 cmarcelo Lorn: hey.. we are discussing the possible tasks for YAPC::SA.
16:27 fglock cmarcelo: so you have the whole compiler tools in plain perl6
16:27 moritz ?eval 4i ~~ Complex
16:27 evalbot_r15825 Bool::True
16:27 polettix moritz: is this what you expect?
16:27 moritz polettix: no, Complex should be a subtype of Num
16:27 polettix phew! :)
16:27 Lorn cmarcelo: cool, we need this :)
16:27 moritz polettix: at least if I'm not completely wrong
16:28 cmarcelo so, we have mp6-in-pugs, which get mp6 code and turns into the subset of perl that pugs runs?
16:28 Lorn i searching a specification of STD...
16:28 fglock joined perl6
16:28 cmarcelo fglock: so, we have mp6-in-pugs, which get mp6 code and turns into the subset of perl that pugs runs?
16:29 eden_c joined perl6
16:29 fglock cmarcelo: yes
16:29 Lorn cmarcelo: wow, you will think to do this? mp6 in haskell ?
16:29 eden_c hi
16:29 cmarcelo eden_c: moose!
16:29 cmarcelo (festa de brasileiros hoje no canal?)
16:29 fglock but "mp6" can actually turn out to be a superset of pugs :)
16:30 eden_c cmarcelo, moose rules
16:30 cmarcelo Lorn: actually, make mp6-in-pugs generate code for pugs run... (as I understood)
16:31 eden_c cmarcelo, is that what we're doing at the hackathon?
16:31 avar how about generating pasm?:)
16:31 cmarcelo fglock: also, there's the regex engine in p6. is this "task" independent? or mp6-in-pugs depend on this?
16:32 cmarcelo eden_c: we are throwing ideas in the air :)
16:32 cmarcelo avar: pasm = parrot asm? (I'm not familiar w/ parrot project)
16:32 avar yep
16:32 eden_c cmarcelo, I still need to get the hang of the perl6 project lingo
16:32 fglock joined perl6
16:32 avar anyway, having it generate a subset of p6 is cool for running it on $other_stuff
16:33 avar like perl6.pir or pugs
16:33 cmarcelo avar: fglock suggested mp6-in-pugs and mp6-in-parrot, the later would be generate pasm I think..
16:33 cmarcelo fglock: read irc logs
16:33 spinclad mp6-to-PAST would be useful
16:34 fglock avar: the idea is to use mp6 (or kp6) as a desugaring layer
16:34 cmarcelo eden_c: did you read flavio's email about hackaton in cascavel-pm?
16:34 fglock in order to support the several backends
16:34 eden_c cmarcelo, yep
16:34 cmarcelo spinclad: hi :)
16:34 spinclad hi all
16:34 ashleyb cool  ---> http://perl6.cz/wiki/Synopses  looks like the history of these synopses wiki pages are kept in real time with the changes that are checked in,  So this looks like the best place on the web to view changes to the Synopses in context (unless someone knows of a better way on the web ??).    Who's responsible for this page (I don't speak czech)?  anyone know?  (for example, see diff: http://perl6.cz/w/index.php?title=Synopses%2
16:35 lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6.cz
16:35 fglock if we get perl6-to-p6parrot running, it can then generate pir (for example)
16:35 fglock so the next generation of 6-on-6 would run on haskell, perl5, and parrot
16:36 fglock by piggybacking on existing implementations
16:36 cmarcelo pasm = parrot asm code, PAST = ______, PIR = pugs intermediate representation?
16:37 spinclad PAST: parrot Asomething syntax tree
16:37 fglock (I've got a really lousy connection today)
16:37 eden_c me too, I'm still waiting for my account on feather
16:38 fglock joined perl6
16:38 spinclad parrot has tools for PAST -> POST (parrot operator syntax tree, equiv of PIR or pasm) -> PIR, pasm, or pbc (parrot byte code)
16:38 spinclad more or less
16:38 cmarcelo spinclad: these tools are working 'today'?
16:38 fglock cmarcelo: the regex engine is a compiler that is written in mp6
16:39 cmarcelo if so, PAST looks like is a better target indeed..
16:39 spinclad think so
16:39 spinclad [particle
16:40 spinclad oop
16:40 fglock cmarcelo: please see this http://pugs.blogs.com/photos/visiolization/mp6bootstrap.html
16:40 lambdabot Title: Visiolization: Mp6bootstrap
16:40 diotalevi left perl6
16:40 spinclad [particle] would know, he works in parrot and talks here
16:40 cmarcelo k
16:40 cmarcelo fglock: today's mp6 uses PCR to regex processing?
16:41 fglock no, it uses it's own bootstrapped regex engine
16:41 fglock the mp6 regex engine is written in mp6
16:42 fglock as well as the grammar compiler
16:42 cmarcelo in the picture you sent, mp6->haskell | generate haskell code, is this indeed a target?
16:42 fglock not anymore,
16:42 fglock the idea is that we can simply generate pugs code
16:42 cmarcelo fglock: what do you think about generating PAST, if there are tools for PAST ~~> (PASM|PIR)?
16:43 fglock which ends up in haskell land ultimately
16:43 fglock same thing,
16:43 fglock we can generate p6parrot instead
16:43 fglock which is much higher level
16:44 Lorn fglock: everything was did in p6 need to pass to haskell for pugs?
16:44 fglock so we can concentrate on writing 6-on-6, instead of the several backend details
16:44 fglock Lorn: yes, everything end either on haskell or perl5
16:44 * [particle] is here, briefly
16:44 fglock [particle]: hi :)
16:45 [particle] howdy
16:45 cmarcelo [particle]: moose.. are there tools today that transform PAST into POST, POST into PASM and POST into PIR?
16:45 Lorn fglock: but first, need to work fine in p6 rigth?
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16:46 cmarcelo fglock: what do you mean by p6parrot? what's the difference between making mp6 generate PAST?
16:46 [particle] cmarcelo: we have hll --pge--> parse --tge--> past --tge--> post --tge--> pir
16:46 [particle] we've been working on post --> pbc, too
16:46 fglock cmarcelo: p6parrot is parrot's perl6
16:46 [particle] we haven't done post --> pasm, because pir is much better :)
16:47 fglock it is an "hll"
16:47 [particle] however, it wouldn't be *hard* to do, if desired
16:47 [particle] we're also thinking about renaming our perl 6 impl to 'onion'
16:47 [particle] that should ease some confusion
16:47 fglock "onion" then :)
16:47 * cmarcelo confused. what PIR mean then? I thought Pugs intermediate representation was this PIR..
16:48 moritz cmarcelo: Parrot, not Pugs ;-)
16:48 [particle] parrot intermediate language (or representation, if you like acronyms that match)
16:48 [particle] pugs has PIL
16:48 [particle] pugs intermediate representation ;)
16:48 cmarcelo [particle]: the VM itself runs PIR code or only pbc?
16:48 [particle] the compiler, imcc, compiles pir and executes it
16:49 [particle] the vm has a bytecode loader for pbc
16:49 cmarcelo hmm.. Pugs-IL is at same level of abstraction as Parrot-IL, or more like PAST?
16:49 [particle] alternately, imcc can produces bytecode instead of running it directly
16:49 cmarcelo [particle]: nice..
16:49 [particle] pugs-il is like past
16:49 [particle] past is the place you should target
16:50 [particle] it's the point of greatest abstraction
16:50 buetow joined perl6
16:50 [particle] it's equally abstracted from HLLs and VMs
16:51 [particle] it's also a good place to transform from another AST to PAST or vice versa
16:51 * [particle] wanders off, bbi15m
16:51 eden_c fglock, (ot) are we getting wireless at FISL?
16:53 fglock joined perl6
16:53 fglock 6-on-6 ILs are v6.pm, pugs, and onion :)
16:53 Lorn eden_c: in the last year we had wireless
16:53 fglock eden_c: yes
16:53 spinclad fglock, [particle]: so p6parrot is closer to mp6 than PAST is, and p6parrot already targets PAST internally, as it were?
16:54 perlmonkey2 No one in #perl knew, but maybe someone here will (since it isn't in the docs).  Do you call/set Moose destructors like explicit destructors in p6?
16:55 fglock spinclad: yes, and p6parrot is meant to evolve into full-perl6
16:55 spinclad perlmonkey2: if someone here doesn't know, try #moose
16:55 fglock perlmonkey2: you don't need to call the destructors
16:55 perlmonkey2 life is full of wants with very few actual needs.
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16:56 svnbot6 r15826 | moritz++ | Added testcase for 1i ~~ Num
16:56 fglock but DESTROY should just work
16:56 fglock s/p6parrot/onion/
16:56 perlmonkey2 thanks
16:58 spinclad fglock, others: how far apart are mp6 and onion? do we have docs that can tell us that around?
16:58 pasteling "evalbot_r15825" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (316 lines, 17.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24003
16:59 fglock spinclad: I don't know :(
16:59 cmarcelo_ joined perl6
16:59 spinclad guess that's what we're to find out and converge
17:00 cmarcelo_ (machine troubles...)
17:00 fglock the architectures are very different, and the feature set is probably different too
17:01 cmarcelo_ is now known as cmarcelo
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17:04 cmarcelo fglock: I still don't get how p6parrot (as you call) is different from doing mp6->past and working on top of mp6...
17:05 fglock cmarcelo: same thing, but mp6-onion should be easier to implement
17:05 Lorn what is onion? :P
17:05 [particle] back
17:06 fglock Lorn: onion = perl6-on-parrot
17:06 Lorn fglock: tks
17:06 fglock cmarcelo: onion is a higher level target
17:07 cmarcelo higher than PAST?
17:07 [particle] onion is perl 6 syntax, with a parrot back end
17:07 [particle] past is an abstract syntax tree
17:08 [particle] *the abstract syntax tree for parrot
17:08 [particle] all hlls on parrot may (but don't have to) use past
17:09 [particle] parrot provides a compiler toolchain called 'partridge' for hll developers
17:09 ruoso joined perl6
17:09 [particle] pgc is the parrot grammar compiler, using pge, which helps hll developers write hll parsers
17:09 fglock .oO( we needed [particle] at the hackathon )
17:09 [particle] then the hll developer uses tge (tree grammar engine) to generate past
17:10 ozo_ joined perl6
17:10 [particle] partridge has already written converters for past -> post -> pbc (or pir)
17:10 [particle] so once a hll developer has emitted past, his job is basically done
17:11 [particle] then it's time to document, and write tests :)
17:12 cmarcelo recap: so the idea is make a mp6 use 'partridge', and build p6p6 on top of mp6? or drop mp6 at all?
17:12 cmarcelo [particle]: thanks for the explanation.
17:12 [particle] you're welcome!
17:13 fglock cmarcelo: mp6->onion->partridge->...
17:14 spinclad is p6parrot/onion found in languages/perl6 in the parrot tree?
17:14 fglock and then: 6-on-6 -> onion -> partridge  or  6-on-6 -> partridge
17:15 moritz spinclad: yes, in languages/perl6
17:15 moritz spinclad: it's not yet renamed to onion
17:15 spinclad right, we just heard it renamed here
17:15 [particle] onion is the proposed name, but it's gaining some traction here :)
17:16 [particle] it's not yet passing 01-sanity tests
17:16 cmarcelo fglock: so onion exists already, and implements a sufficient subset of 'Perl 6'? sufficient = enough to satisfy mp6 backend needs..
17:16 fglock yep
17:16 [particle] cmarcelo: i'm not sure it implements that subset, yet. fglock, are you sure?
17:17 [particle] i don't know the mp6 requirements well enough
17:17 moritz fglock: even though onion doesn't support variables yet?
17:17 fglock mp6 doesn't need much - closures, basically
17:17 * cmarcelo wonders if Parrot will compile in his amd64 machine... (I've tried few times before and "bad" things happened)
17:17 [particle] onion supports variables
17:18 [particle] it doesn't support hashes, or arrays (maybe) or BEGIN/END blocks
17:18 fglock mp6 needs basic OO, but even this can be made optional
17:18 moritz [particle]: then STATUS is outdate
17:18 [particle] parrot's object model implementation is moving forward very quickly
17:19 [particle] it's meta, and tres cool
17:19 cmarcelo fglock: recap v2 => mp6 ~> onion, p6p6 built on top of mp6, regex compiler on top of mp6.. those are the tasks listed so far?
17:19 fglock BEGIN/END are implemented at mp6-land :)
17:19 eumenides joined perl6
17:19 [particle] fglock: yay!@
17:19 fglock cmarcelo: yes
17:20 pasteling "moritz" at 80.193.211.68 pasted "Variables in onion - what's wrong?" (5 lines, 57B) at http://sial.org/pbot/24004
17:21 cmarcelo fglock: ok. questions: mp6 code is a subset of p6? mp6-code is valid p6-code? what's missing in Pugs p6 that's needed to run mp6?
17:22 fglock cmarcelo: some mp6 constructs are syntax errors in pugs; I'm not sure if these are actual errors or not
17:23 cmarcelo hmm.. are they syntax errors from Perl 6 point of view? or your not sure about this?
17:23 fglock I'm not sure if it is valid syntax, such as: my $v = MyClass( value => 1 )
17:24 fglock my $v = ::MyClass( value => 1 )
17:25 fglock a simple refactoring would fix it, but I'm not sure if this is a syntax error or a pugs error
17:25 eden_c joined perl6
17:26 fglock I think it was "conjectural" at the time mp6 was implemented
17:26 prism joined perl6
17:27 fglock so running mp6 on pugs is likely doable at the hackathon
17:27 fglock mp6 on onion would be nice-to-have
17:28 cmarcelo fglock: ok. I have to go now. could you "summarize" our discussion and post to cascavel-pm | pugs-compiler? or make a page on dev.pugscode.org, so we can keep track of the possible tasks...
17:28 fglock ok
17:28 [particle] moritz: i need to rebuild parrot to check....
17:28 moritz [particle]: ok
17:29 cmarcelo is it "safe" to do a 'make install' in parrot?
17:29 [particle] cmarcelo: it should be
17:30 [particle] there have been reports of failures, but we're trying to fix them all
17:30 [particle] you know how that goes :)
17:30 eden_c it complains about not being able to develop it on the same machine
17:31 spinclad fglock: does mp6 assume native hashes and arrays?  that could be an obstacle, and a best 'next feature' for onion
17:31 [particle] there are some lingering problems about finding shared libraries. parrot may find your installed lib before your dev one, which can lead to segfaults, obviously
17:31 fglock spinclad: yes, it does
17:31 cmarcelo [particle]: same complaint here. changing perspective: how do I run "perl6.pir" w/ uninstalled parrot ?
17:32 [particle] cd languages/perl6 && ..\..\parrot perl6.pbc
17:32 [particle] it should be in the pod, as well: perldoc perl6.pir
17:33 cmarcelo imcc wasn't compiled after 'perl Configure.pl; make', is this expected?
17:33 [particle] @tell TimToady now that we have # todo :foo<bar> and # skip, i'd like to see # spec :PDD15<Role PMC API/=item add_method>
17:33 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:34 spinclad parrot of course has native hashes and arrays, even perl6-flavor more or less, if i recall rightly; it would be the new syntax and parsing to PAST that's needed i would guess
17:34 maxy7 joined perl6
17:35 [particle] past is missing iterator support, iirc
17:35 cmarcelo [particle]: imcc wasn't compiled after 'perl Configure.pl; make', is this expected?
17:36 cmarcelo (perl6.pir complains about imcc not being found)
17:36 [particle] compilers/imcc should be compiled, but it's not standalone
17:36 [particle] you run parrot -o foo.pbc foo.pir # this runs imcc
17:38 sunnavy joined perl6
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17:40 cmarcelo running this I get: 'imcc no such file or directory'.. I have to run now.. I'll try more later, thanks folks.
17:41 the_dormant joined perl6
17:41 eden_c I'm getting the same here
17:41 [particle] have you created a file named foo.pir with pir code inside it?
17:42 [particle] or, do you mean you're running perl6 and it's failing with that message?
17:42 eden_c can't I run the perl6.pir?
17:42 [particle] did you run make in languages/perl6?
17:42 eden_c hm, no
17:42 [particle] aha!
17:43 [particle] cd languages/perl6 && nmake all test
17:43 eden_c the installed version of parrot didn't work for me
17:44 svnbot6 r15827 | fglock++ | v6/yapc-sa-hackathon.txt - task ideas
17:44 cmarcelo [particle]: I tried with perl6.pir.. I thought foo.pir was like file.pir :o)
17:44 tuna joined perl6
17:44 cmarcelo see you later &
17:44 cmarcelo fglock++ # summary of ideas :)
17:47 IllvilJa joined perl6
17:48 eden_c [particle], 5 test scripts failed
17:50 Psyche^ joined perl6
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ | * Snapshot merge of the pad branch into trunk.
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   Tests mostly passes; YAML compression is turned off for now
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   which results in slower startups, but otherwise it's functioning
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   as specced.
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   However, need another two solid days of work before the entire
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   separate-compilation model and class/role composers work, for
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   releng to start and the tree to be labelled as Pugs 6.28.0.
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   Problem is: I'm probably not getting two solid days of sanity for
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   work any time soon, so the next commit will revert this merge.
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   This commit is merely for safeguard so the code lives in somewhere
17:52 svnbot6 r15828 | audreyt++ |   else than my (dangerously ephemeral) laptop.  Sorry.
17:53 moritz audreyt++ # back to #perl6 ;-)
17:53 geoffb moritz: yeah, but it sounds like only for a moment.
17:53 geoffb Which makes me very sad.
17:54 wolverian maybe someone could pick it up :)
17:54 svnbot6 r15829 | audreyt++ | * Revert r15828 as promised.
17:56 gaal audreyt.moose.moose.moose
17:58 [particle] moose audreyt?
17:58 maxyeung joined perl6
17:58 [particle] audreyt has 111 mooses
17:58 [particle] :)
17:58 [particle] where's moosebot?
17:58 [particle] ISAGN
17:59 moritz [particle]: moosebot? I've never seen that?
17:59 [particle] ISAGN: i see a great need
17:59 [particle] moose is the new karma :)
18:00 [particle] gaal.moose.moose
18:00 wolverian heh
18:00 wolverian that might get annoying.moose.moose.
18:00 wolverian if people get repeating it.moose.moose
18:01 wolverian s/get/keep/.moose.moose
18:01 moritz ?eval "moose" x 10
18:01 evalbot_r15825 is now known as evalbot_r15829
18:01 evalbot_r15829 "moosemoosemoosemoosemoosemoosemoosemoosemoosemoose"
18:01 moritz ?eval "moose" xx 10
18:01 evalbot_r15829 ("moose", "moose", "moose", "moose", "moose", "moose", "moose", "moose", "moose", "moose")
18:01 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
18:01 [particle] which is more moose, the moose, or the moose who mooses her?
18:02 moritz wolverian: beeing nerds we don't have to annoy ourselfes, we can let bots do the job
18:02 [particle] laziness.moose.moose
18:02 wolverian moritz, that's moose.
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18:06 tokuhirom is now known as toku_away
18:19 lichtkind moritz: Tokens (keyword: token) are regexes that perform low-level non-backtracking (by default) pattern matching.
18:19 lichtkind http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S06.html#Argument_list_binding
18:19 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 6: Subroutines - perl6:, http://tinyurl.com/pfpph
18:22 devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: YAPC::Asia slides. <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/04/yapcasia_slides.html>
18:42 gaal audreyt: are you in tokyo? say hi to brad from lj if you see him :)
18:42 gaal better yet, say moose
18:46 gaal oh, my. someone posted to the haskell list about "Fixpoint combinator without recursion". (1 +) evolution
19:07 prly_ ?eval sub f($a,$b){$a+$b}; my $v=1; my &bar:=&f.assuming(a=>$v); $v=5; bar(b=>$v)
19:07 evalbot_r15829 10
19:07 prly_ hum
19:07 prly_ i would have expected 6
19:07 prly_ currying doesn't seem very useful like that
19:08 Tene ?eval sub f($a,$b){$a+$b}; my $v=1; my &bar:=&f.assuming(a=>$v); say bar(5);$v=10;say bar(5);
19:08 evalbot_r15829 OUTPUT[6␤15␤] Bool::True
19:09 gaal in Perl 5, at least, closure has visible effect at scope exit
19:09 gaal that is, the assuming closed on $v, not on the value 1
19:10 gaal you changed v while still in the same scope, so it's correct that the closure sees the change
19:10 gaal (there is no functional language parallel, because you can't mutate variables there...)
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19:20 geoffb Sheesh, Debian Etch version of evince *hates* audreyt's new slides
19:30 gaal they're heavy even with acrobat on windoes
19:30 gaal *windows
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19:35 moritz geoffb: they look decently with xpdf (afaict)
19:36 the_dormant joined perl6
19:36 geoffb moritz: thanks, installing it now
19:37 ofer joined perl6
19:38 tuna joined perl6
19:39 geoffb Oh cripes, that is *much* more sane
19:39 geoffb Thanks, moritz!
19:39 forsaken joined perl6
19:39 moritz geoffb: np ;-)
19:40 geoffb Debian++ # That package doesn't work?  Here, try another.  We've got twenty thousand of them!
19:43 moritz geoffb: Debian++ indeed, though I still wait for the ++ in the version number ;-)
19:43 geoffb moritz: NODNODNOD
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19:44 moritz apt-cache search .|wc -l
19:44 moritz 18906
19:44 moritz scary ;-)
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19:51 geoffb moritz: but also happy making.
19:51 geoffb Except when I can't figure out which one of several options to try first.
19:51 moritz geoffb: of course ;-)
19:52 moritz geoffb: that's why I want popcon integration into apt-cache search results
19:52 moritz geoffb: to tell me which packages are "standard"
19:52 geoffb moritz: not a bad idea.
19:52 geoffb Frankly, I'd be happy to have dpkg -l integrated in a-c s results
19:53 geoffb So that I know "oh, right, I already have that one installed"
19:53 geoffb without two steps
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19:54 moritz geoffb: good idea as well... did you submit a wishlist bug report?
19:55 moritz googlebot seems to strangely love my pugs-doc debian packages... it downloads them over and over again ;-)
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19:56 geoffb moritz: nope - because the last time I suggested it the answer was "oh, use a gui"
19:56 moritz geoffb: not the kind of answer I'd like to get ;(
19:57 geoffb moritz: agreed.
19:58 eden_c is it normal for pugs to fail a few tests?
19:58 moritz eden_c: hundrets ;-)
19:59 eden_c but, I can still play around with it right?
19:59 moritz eden_c: only for the releases the faling testcases are marked :todo
19:59 moritz eden_c: ofyes
19:59 moritz ?eval say capititalize "have fun"
19:59 evalbot_r15829 Error: No such subroutine: &capititalize
20:00 moritz ?eval say capitalize "have fun"
20:00 evalbot_r15829 OUTPUT[Have Fun␤] Bool::True
20:00 eden_c :)
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20:12 masak audreyt: is that zapfino in the slides? it looks stylish.
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21:36 dduncan question about Perl 6 Microgrants ... Leon posted that the second one was awarded, but I don't recall reading about the first being awarded ... when did that happen?
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21:39 allbery_b I vaguely recall seeing it go by on the list but don't recall when or details
21:40 moritz I'm pretty sure it was not on p6-language
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22:00 dduncan before today's announcement, I only saw announced that there was going to be microgrants, and discussion of what-ifs
22:05 PerlJam The first was speters wasn't it?
22:05 PerlJam making parrot more portable
22:05 PerlJam http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/26/1745205
22:05 lambdabot Title: use Perl | Perl 6 Microgrant - Steve Peters on Parrot Portability
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22:24 dduncan thank you ... I think the problem is that it didn't come on the mailing lists, where I usually communicate save for IRC
22:25 TimToady @messages
22:25 lambdabot audreyt said 22d 11h 24m 1s ago: S02:1438 seems to overrule S06:194 (which was earlier text.) Is it okay if I update both to say that &-sigil fallback to global by default, but no other sigils do?
22:25 lambdabot audreyt said 22d 11h 21m 30s ago: logical consequence is that multi sub dispatch in lexical context should do a lookup to GLOBAL and include those variants, too, for &*infix:<+> to work.
22:25 lambdabot [particle] said 4h 51m 39s ago: now that we have # todo :foo<bar> and # skip, i'd like to see # spec :PDD15<Role PMC API/=item add_method>
22:25 PerlJam dduncan: I've found it useful to watch use.perl.org, mailing lists, perlmonks, and TPF news :)
22:26 PerlJam dduncan: (and, of course, IRC)
22:26 dduncan okay
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22:36 geoffb ETOOMANYINFOSOURCES
22:37 geoffb TimToady, when does the spec for the Perl 6 Wetware Interface get written, eh?
22:37 geoffb I want to be able to filter the feeds to my brain
22:37 geoffb Using a nice convenient syntax, no less.
22:38 TimToady already specced, for the most part, if you use the electromagnetic inferface
22:39 TimToady *interface
22:39 TimToady though we haven't specced which colors should be used.  :)
22:40 TimToady now, if you want the Wetware VM, that's a slightly trickier matter (no pun intended)
22:40 Tene 4color3Forth!
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23:03 snoop0x7b TimToady the question of course will be which cpan package will the bodily functions fall under
23:22 moritz on which unicode level do regexes usually operate? code points?
23:27 geoffb moritz: I believe it's "whatever is the current default", which I seem to recall is graphemes, but my memory may be fuzzy there
23:28 moritz geoffb: any idea how to change that setting?
23:33 geoffb Isn't it 'use codepoints;' or somesuch?  It's been a long time since I last looked at that part of the spec ....
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