Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:17 avar avar@Arsia:~$ pugs -e 'for split /^/, "a\nb\n" -> $i { print $i }'
01:17 avar a
01:17 avar b
01:17 avar avar@Arsia:~$ pugs -e 'for split /^^/, "a\nb\n" -> $i { print $i }'
01:17 avar a
01:17 avar b
01:17 avar isn't it only ^^ that's line beginning?
01:23 svnbot6 r15836 | Darren_Duncan++ | added ext/QDRDBMS/, which is a rewrite of ext/Rosetta/ (the latter to be removed before the next Pugs release) ... the files of this initial commit are identical to the current Perl 5 version in version control, that is set to be released to CPAN soon, and I will be s///ing Pugs' version into Perl 6 code within the next day
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01:37 * Limbic_Region just dealt with the best customer service ever
01:38 Tene orly?
01:38 Tene Who?
01:39 Limbic_Region Linksys
01:39 * Limbic_Region was more than a little suprised
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01:44 * Limbic_Region assumes the significant recent changes require a realclean?
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02:15 Limbic_Region ?seen audreyt
02:15 lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6 and #haskell. I last heard audreyt speak 1d 20h 17m 58s ago.
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03:09 Lorn hi
03:52 spinclad ?eval for split /^/, "a\nb\n" -> $i { print ":$i" }
03:52 evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[:a:␤:b:␤] undef
03:53 spinclad ?eval for split /^^/, "a\nb\n" -> $i { print ":$i" }
03:53 evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[:a:␤:b:␤] undef
03:54 spinclad interesting. expected [:a␤b␤] or such.
03:58 spinclad or rather, expect that for split /^/, like avar said.
04:01 avar perhaps this is a bug or a special exception, split /^/ wouldn't be very useful ..
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04:21 gaal @tell szabgab you also need the libghc6-network-dev package...
04:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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06:31 szabgab @tell gaal thanks, now Pugs builds
06:31 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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06:49 svnbot6 r15837 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : made some updates to SeeAlso.pod
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08:05 svnbot6 r15838 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : did a bunch of s///ing Perl 5 code and docs into Perl 6
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09:35 svnbot6 r15839 | franck++ |  r21189@franck-mbp:  franck | 2007-04-07 11:29:50 +0200
09:35 svnbot6 r15839 | franck++ |  tests for fetch and store
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10:14 moritz moose
10:23 svnbot6 r15840 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : continued s///ing Perl 5 code into Perl 6 code
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10:38 svnbot6 r15841 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : in AST.pm, split Expr type into 3
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14:38 __Ace__ damn, this is so cool.. embedding perl in C
14:38 __Ace__ and its quite easy too
14:39 __Ace__ TimToady: what is the license on the application if I embed the perl interpreter?
14:39 __Ace__ :)
14:40 xinming __Ace__: gpl
14:40 __Ace__ oki
14:41 integral err, surely it could be Artistic too?
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14:42 __Ace__ which means?
14:43 xinming integral: yes, But you have to ask author about the permission.
14:43 integral ah
14:44 __Ace__ so damn cool... so, this means I can do C programming, but still use Perl stuff :)
14:45 xinming integral: we are not lawyer... so, I don't know.. But, It's just kind of guess. :-P
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14:46 __Ace__ thats why asked the creator himselves :) he should know
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15:44 moritz __Ace__: perl is community project ;-)
15:44 __Ace__ even perl5?
15:51 moritz __Ace__: just take a look at the list of authors ;-)
15:53 moritz zcat AUTHORS.gz |wc -l
15:53 moritz 860
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15:59 __Ace__ ok, let put it this way. if one do something cool, you think there will be alot of $ doners? ;)
16:02 pmurias doners == donors?
16:02 __Ace__ yes :)
16:04 __Ace__ not saying I am, just wondering
16:04 moritz __Ace__: it depends on how usefull that is...
16:04 moritz people tend not to donate just because something is cool
16:04 pmurias audreyt is, and she still has to have a day job
16:05 moritz but if something is _really_ cool, you can build a successfull website and earn money from the website  - sometimes
16:05 moritz like the guy who invented the flying spaghetti monster ;-)
16:14 perlmonkey2 I would have thought the Perl Foundation would have raised 10's of millions for p6.
16:15 perlmonkey2 And that the core of the p6 dev team would be fully funded.
16:17 moritz I think it's not that easy raising so much funds
16:17 Khisanth somewhere someone in TPF is ROFLing
16:18 moritz or wheeping ;-)
16:20 perlmonkey2 p6 needs a professional fundraiser.  there are oceans of money in the world, and p6 could fully fund the core dev team with ~ a few hundred thousand/year.
16:21 moritz actually audreyt would need only 3k US$/month to work full time on pugs
16:22 perlmonkey2 That isn't very much.....
16:23 * perlmonkey2 ponders putting some effort into sending donation traffic at TPF.
16:24 moritz http://donate.pugscode.org/
16:24 lambdabot Title: Perl6 Community Development Server
16:24 moritz that's not what it should be
16:25 perlmonkey2 That appears to be a problem.  
16:25 perlmonkey2 Also, people don't like to work under short-term grants.  No security in it.
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16:26 moritz perlmonkey2: audreyt is an exception, here $job is very flexible
16:27 * perlmonkey2 is checking out online advertising prices.
16:30 __Ace__ uh, anyone here using irssi?
16:30 Khisanth hrm that page doesn't mention sshfs
16:30 __Ace__ how to connect to a new server without disconnecting from this one+
16:30 __Ace__ ?
16:31 Khisanth /server with some flag?
16:31 moritz __Ace__: just /connect
16:31 __Ace__ ah
16:31 * perlmonkey2 wonders what types of websites perl fanboys visit.
16:31 moritz __Ace__: at least that works for me
16:31 moritz perlmonkey2: perlmonks, use.perl.org ;-)
16:31 moritz perlmonkey2: slashdot
16:31 Khisanth heh
16:31 __Ace__ digg
16:31 __Ace__ :)
16:31 moritz (in Germany) heise
16:32 moritz myspace.com
16:32 moritz just kidding ;-)
16:32 __Ace__ and rarely google.com
16:32 __Ace__ ;)
16:32 perlmonkey2 slashdot....excellent.  Lately you can get free adertisements posted as articles.  Someone write a article about p6's Spring fundraiser and about how the project is on schedule for Xmas 1.0.
16:33 eumenides slashdot? seriously?
16:33 perlmonkey2 first the article needs be on use.perl
16:33 moritz perlmonkey2: what we really need is a new pugs release, and then a /. article about that
16:34 perlmonkey2 the focus should be the Spring fundraiser.....the point of this project is to raise development funds.
16:34 moritz Juerd: can feather handle a /. "attack"?
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16:34 perlmonkey2 a new pugs release would be great candy to add to the post.
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16:35 moritz perlmonkey2: well, it has to have some _news_ in it
16:35 __Ace__ uh
16:35 __Ace__ ok... so, now when I am connected..
16:35 __Ace__ how do I tell to join on that particular server?
16:36 __Ace__ moritz
16:36 perlmonkey2 I think I'll email whatever department on campus teaches advertising and ask if their top students want to make a few bucks.
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16:36 moritz __Ace__: /join -freenode #perl6
16:37 __Ace__ and how to display which ones Im connected to?
16:37 moritz __Ace__: /server
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16:39 __Ace__ aha, thanks
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17:30 Juerd moritz: Depends on the kind of attack :)
17:30 Juerd moritz: In general, there's exactly one way to find out
17:32 moritz Juerd: good point ;)
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17:50 rindolf Hi all.
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20:36 lichtkind "The best technical paper at the annual Perl Conference was subsequently named in his honour" does that mean that this prize is named after him ?
20:37 moritz seems like
20:37 lichtkind cool
21:09 moritz lichtkind: are you editing the Perl article on the German wikipedia?
21:09 lichtkind yes its mostly my work
21:09 lichtkind thatswhy i ask here tim toady the weird questions
21:10 moritz lichtkind: in the part on perl 6 you are inconsequent in respect to "Perl6" and "Perl 6"
21:10 moritz I think the latter is correct
21:10 lichtkind what ja mean?
21:10 moritz lichtkind: the space ;-)
21:10 lichtkind ah the space between
21:10 lichtkind hm
21:10 moritz should I just correct that?
21:10 lichtkind tu dir kein zwang an
21:11 lichtkind the problem is that that chapter is linked
21:11 lichtkind youd have to correct some links too
21:11 lichtkind and chapterlinks arent traceable
21:12 moritz ok, I mostly corrected it
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21:15 lichtkind goot i try to fix the links :)
21:15 lichtkind what you think about the text?
21:15 moritz I just fixed the spellin in the "Kritik" section ;-)
21:15 moritz lichtkind: I'm still reading ;-)
21:15 lichtkind hm in the other section i wrote also perl6
21:16 lichtkind someone else changed it :)
21:16 lichtkind i always pleased of comments
21:17 moritz all in all it's really good - perhaps a bit long for a classical "Lexikon" ;-)
21:18 lichtkind it wikipedia :)
21:18 lichtkind its
21:18 lichtkind thanks
21:18 lichtkind but its nearly not finished
21:18 lichtkind 1h ago i wrote http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damian_Conway
21:18 moritz I know that wikipedia is rather known for verbosity than for shortness ;-)
21:20 lichtkind but thats nothing bad
21:20 lichtkind wiki is no paper
21:21 lichtkind and every long articel has a short summary at beginning
21:21 lichtkind every good long ..
21:27 lichtkind moritz also keine verbesserungsvorschläge?
21:27 moritz lichtkind: bbiab, phone&
21:28 lichtkind k
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21:42 Tene Ahh... It's so good to have linux and pugs back on my laptop.
21:48 lichtkind good tene :)
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22:25 lichtkind moritz: fertsch?
22:26 moritz lichtkind: ja, keine Ahnregungen :(
22:26 lichtkind macht nichts
22:26 lichtkind ich weiss was ich noch vorhab
22:26 lichtkind bin froh das grob gesehen erstmal alles drin ist im artikel
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22:50 dmq happy easter perl6
22:51 lichtkind hello dmq glad to see you
22:51 lichtkind dmq gesegnete ostern
22:52 dmq gleich falss
22:52 avar wook!
22:52 dmq ;-)
22:52 * dmq is embarrsed to admit he doesnt know how to spell "fals"
22:53 * dmq is barassed to admit he cant sepell embarrsed either
22:53 allbery_b @spell embarrassed
22:53 lambdabot embarrassed
22:53 allbery_b :)
22:54 OwlEye lichtkind, mögen sich deine eier blau färben :P
22:54 lichtkind dmq falls
22:54 lichtkind OwlEye: wovon ?
22:55 OwlEye lichtkind, weiß nicht :)
22:55 lichtkind OwlEye: ich kenne frauen nur aus büchern
22:55 dmq ich hab ein blauer eier. nur ein mal. :-)
22:55 OwlEye lichtkind, lol
22:57 lichtkind dmq:  i was really impressed from your work
22:57 lichtkind OwlEye: das kannst du mir glauben
22:59 dmq welches?
22:59 * OwlEye knuddelt lichtkind
22:59 lichtkind dmq on per5 regex engine
22:59 dmq ach, danke.
23:00 dmq :-)
23:00 dmq we all stand on the shoulders of giants
23:00 lichtkind dmq true but you did good work what is always a pleasure to see
23:02 dmq thanks lichtkind
23:02 dmq alwyas nice to know people appreciate ones work
23:02 avar dmq: Hey, get off my regex engine!
23:03 dmq all your regex engines are belonging to ME!
23:03 dmq :-)
23:03 avar ookook
23:03 dmq still, your efforts are much appreciated avar.
23:04 dmq sorry if this week i haent been so helpful.
23:04 avar :)
23:04 dmq lots of stuff on the go
23:04 avar yeah, stupid @stuff ..
23:04 lichtkind dmq what does avar do?
23:05 dmq we need to figure out a way to handle perl6 style capturs
23:05 lichtkind in perl 5?
23:05 avar I figured that out already, you just won't accept my omnipotent suggestions:)
23:05 dmq lichtkind: he hacks OTHER engines. And gives me heatburn, and makes me think, and generally pushes the regex engine in the right direction
23:06 dmq no no, im accepting them. just being the "sober second thought"
23:06 avar :)
23:07 dmq http://www.cbc.ca/newsinrevi​ew/apr98/senate/citizen.htm
23:07 lambdabot Title: A Citizen’s Sober Second Thought
23:07 dmq hopefully ill get back to hacking the regex engine next week
23:08 lichtkind dmq if you dont mind i thought a lot about you after our ride because you thinking is in many ways different but you have passion to do thing right and that i admire
23:09 dmq "think outside of the box"
23:09 svnbot6 r15842 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : more s///ing Perl 5 code into Perl 6 code
23:09 dmq :-)
23:11 dmq avar: it would be cool to come up with a sane representation for perl6 style capture buffer numbering that can map to perl5 style.
23:11 avar with the perl5 engine?
23:11 dmq "sane" being the key wod.
23:11 dmq yes
23:12 dmq it would be nice to supply a perl6 style interface to the capture buffers
23:12 dmq IMO
23:12 dmq god (or Larry) only knows how it would work, but cest la vie.
23:12 dmq :-)
23:13 * dmq has horrific mental images of nested tied constructs
23:13 avar I don't see how you'd map the regex byte code to that, hrm
23:14 Juerd dmq: Perl 6 doesn't have tie... >:)
23:14 dmq its gotta be possible to map nested style to incremental style.
23:14 Juerd It just has variables that do roles that have methods that override. :)
23:14 dmq the question is how to make the p5 actually do something useful with it
23:15 dmq i was thinking maybe use pseudo hash notation for it instead of true nested arrays. :-)
23:16 dmq $/{1;0;1;2}
23:16 avar why not use true nested arrays?
23:16 dmq or however it works i forget right now
23:16 avar fastah?
23:16 dmq because nested arrays imply constructing the full tree at match time, but using the hash notation means that you can do a tie
23:17 dmq pr doing extremely evil tie stuff.
23:17 avar you can have a tied nested array
23:18 avar :)
23:18 dmq i thought you couldnt
23:18 dmq actually if im right maybe THATS something to fix for perl 5.10
23:18 dmq a AUTOVIVY tied method. :-)
23:18 avar uh? not? that sucks
23:18 avar FETCH can't return []?
23:19 lichtkind Juerd perl6 dont have tie omd ponies
23:19 dmq I dont remember the details, and im a few pints too close to the wind to look them up if you know what i mean, but something to do with autovivification comes into play
23:20 avar autoviwhat?
23:21 dmq undef $ref->{$key}; $ref->{$key}{$subkey}=$foo;
23:21 dmq autovivification
23:21 * Limbic_Region cracks open a cold one and wonders about the etymology of the phrase "3 sheets to the wind"
23:21 avar auto-make keys?
23:22 dmq not that hard L~R
23:22 Limbic_Region eval: my %hash; if ($hash{foo}{bar}) { } \%hash;
23:22 buubot Limbic_Region:  {foo => {}}
23:23 Limbic_Region autovivication
23:23 dmq you make a sail tight to the wind by pulling on its sheet. If you pulled 3 sheets you did somethign wrong. :-)
23:23 dmq thanks L~R, thats a good example.
23:24 Limbic_Region that's the typical example of when you DON'T want autovivication to do what it does
23:25 dmq or maybe you dont care.
23:25 dmq :-)
23:25 dmq but no question, sometimes it can be "interesting"
23:26 avar that's really annoying
23:27 dmq iirc the problem is that autovivification doesnt propagate tiedness.
23:27 avar eval: my %hash; if (exists $hash{x}{y}{z}) {} \%hash
23:27 buubot avar:  {x => {y => {}}}
23:27 Limbic_Region avar - yes, in p5 you must check each level in succession
23:27 avar stupid p5
23:28 dmq so you have a tied structure and you want $x->{y}{z} to tie "y" and "z" as appropriate, but what happens is that {z} gets stored as an anonymous hash, and isnt tied.
23:29 Limbic_Region I think I had this conversation with japhy once and prompted him to create an autotie module
23:29 * Limbic_Region looks
23:29 Limbic_Region yep
23:29 Limbic_Region Tie::Autotie
23:29 Limbic_Region used in Tie::IxHash::Easy
23:30 * dmq mutters that it seems like its something that the core should deal with
23:30 Limbic_Region *shrug*
23:31 dmq i was thinking we should support an AUTOVIVIFY method.
23:31 Limbic_Region you mean for perl 5 or perl 6?
23:32 dmq perl5
23:32 dmq perl 6 presumably will do all of this in a sane way and we wont worry about crap like tie hooks.
23:33 Limbic_Region dmq - to be quite frank, I don't want anymore new features for 5.10, I want 5.10 out the door yesterday
23:33 dmq did i say 5.10?
23:34 dmq although, why not 5.10 :-)
23:34 * dmq wonders how big a hack it would be.
23:35 Limbic_Region well, it has now been 5 years
23:35 dmq yes well, a lot of water under the bridge and all that
23:37 avar more 5.10 features!:)
23:37 dmq thinking of other things id rather delay a bit and make sure things are right than push it out right this second.
23:37 avar but ya, development is sloooow:)
23:39 Limbic_Region dmq - I am thinking more along the lines of code freeze for the purposes of ironing things out so it can get out the door
23:39 dmq for instance avar has been working on the regex engine, and id rather 5.10 has a good API in that regard before 5.10 than wait for 5.12
23:39 Limbic_Region dmq - rather than just saying ship it now in whatever state it is in
23:39 kattana_ :o regex engines are relevant to my interests **currently hacking on their own**
23:39 Limbic_Region but I keep hearing about new features
23:39 avar mm, features
23:39 dmq features arent necessarily a big deal (IMO), sometimes they are, sometimes they arent.
23:41 dmq things are more nuanced than that. you can add a new feature in a few hours if you know the right things and know what you want. whats important is deeper issues like API's and abstraction layers and stuff like that.
23:41 Limbic_Region I can see we will just have to disagree on this one
23:41 kattana_ indeed, or midway through adding a new feature you have to rewrite big chunks
23:41 Limbic_Region from my perspective, it doesn't matter how long it takes to implement nor how much of a risk it is
23:42 Limbic_Region at some point you have to say - no more - otherwise you are in a perpetual state of development
23:42 Limbic_Region and for the guys developing and using bleed, that probably isn't so bad
23:42 Limbic_Region for the poor schmucks who need an official release to be out for a year or more before their shop will adopt it - it is excruciating
23:42 dmq naw its not a matter of disagreeing really, its more a question of having a good handle on what kind of impacts things can have. Big things often have low impact because they are big, subtle things however can have HUGE impacts.
23:43 pasteling "moritz" at 80.193.211.68 pasted "short grammer - why is "add_op" => () ?" (43 lines, 949B) at http://sial.org/pbot/24076
23:43 avar dmq: I was thinking about perlapi functions to deal with regexp stuff
23:43 avar like SvRXOK()
23:43 dmq interesting thought avar.
23:45 dmq L~R, i can see what you mean.
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23:47 dmq The thing is there are some things you really want to get right on a major release. Once you release a major version you have to be binary compatible with all minor releases in that major version. Which means if you get something wrong it can take a long time to fix it.
23:49 Limbic_Region dmq - look, I can understand that.  I can also understand how difficult it must be for the pumpking wrangling each contributors personal objectives
23:49 Limbic_Region I am not trying to propose an implementation plan roadmap or anything structured like that
23:50 Limbic_Region but still - folks need to see perl competing with the other languages come lately
23:51 moritz .oO( and if perl 5.10 is released in the next two months it might make it into Debian 4.1 Lenny ;-)Oo.
23:51 dmq newcomers advantage
23:51 dmq we have to play behind the scenes and make it look like nothing has changed
23:53 avar did ruby even exist when 5.8 came out?:)
23:55 moritz ruby was released '95
23:56 moritz 5.8 was 2002
23:56 moritz avar: nice try ;-)
23:57 dmq whats seven years amongst friends?
23:57 moritz more than half of a decade ;-)
23:57 moritz time enough to decay (no pun intended)
23:57 dmq feh. in geological terms its nothing.
23:57 dmq :-)
23:59 Limbic_Region actually 5.8 came out about the time I started with perl (2002-07-11)

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