Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 QtPlatypus Is my's scope "THings that follow it" or "Things that follow it and are to the right of it?"
00:03 QtPlatypus In other words.
00:04 QtPlatypus my $sub = sub { $sub->() }; # What $sub gets called?
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00:18 svnbot6 r15871 | lwall++ | compensate for pugs not parsing '{' and '}' correctly in rules
00:19 TimToady QtPlatypus: that's a syntax error in Perl 6, and in any case the answer depends on whether you're talking about Perl 5 or Perl 6.  (Hint: Perl 5 does it wrong. :)
00:19 geoffb ?eval my $sub = sub ($a = 5) { say $a }; my $sub = sub { $sub->(4) }; $sub->(3)
00:19 evalbot_r15831 Error: ␤Unexpected "$sub"␤expecting "=", "::", term postfix, operator, "}", context, ":" or "("
00:20 geoffb ?eval my $sub = sub ($a = 5) { say $a }; my $sub = sub { $sub.(4) }; $sub.(3)
00:20 geoffb I'm guessing recursion just occured.
00:21 evalbot_r15831 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
00:21 geoffb yep
00:21 TimToady indeed, that's what you just asked it to do
00:21 TimToady in any case the two "my $sub" declarations declare the same variable.
00:21 geoffb Actually, I was hoping to get a redecleration eror
00:21 geoffb er, error
00:22 TimToady not impl
00:22 geoffb nodnod
00:22 QtPlatypus TimToady: I was asking about Perl6
00:23 TimToady but to clarify to QtPlatypus, in Perl 5 "my $sub" is not introduced till after the statement, whereas
00:23 TimToady in Perl 6 the $sub is introduced immediately, so is visible in the body.
00:23 QtPlatypus So I should be able to do something like this in perl6 (Syntax correct fix if needed)
00:23 geoffb I wish there was something I could do to help audreyt ... Haskell just doesn't ~~ my coding style
00:24 [particle] ...join parrot...
00:24 [particle] ;)
00:24 TimToady QtPlatypus: yes, that sort of thing should work fine in P6 (modulo the infinite recursion).
00:24 QtPlatypus my @fib = gather { take 1; take 1; my $i = 0; while (1) { take @fib[$i++] + @fib[$i] } };
00:25 QtPlatypus ?eval my @fib = gather { take 1; take 1; my $i = 0; while (1) { take @fib[$i++] + @fib[$i]
00:25 evalbot_r15831 Error: ␤Unexpected "@fib"␤expecting "=", operator, ":", ",", "}", context or "("
00:26 Aankhen`` ?eval my @fib = gather { take 1; take 1; my $i = 0; while (1) { take @fib[$i++] + @fib[$i] } }
00:26 TimToady it might need to be a := instead
00:26 QtPlatypus ?eval my @fib := gather { take 1; take 1; my $i = 0; while (1) { take @fib[$i++] + @fib[$i] } }; say @fib
00:26 Aankhen`` Um.
00:26 geoffb [particle]: things may have changed, but last I looked adding features to languages/perl 6 was not terribly approachable ... and I can only spend time in small slices.  Not enough to go deep and study the existing code for a week.
00:26 QtPlatypus TimToady: Why?
00:26 TimToady = is probably going to try to be eager
00:26 Aankhen`` QtPlatypus: You might want to stop the loop at some time.
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00:26 Aankhen`` ?eval my @fib = gather { take 1; take 1; my $i = 0; while ($i < 10) { take @fib[$i++] + @fib[$i] } }
00:26 QtPlatypus ?eval my @fib := gather { take 1; take 1; my $i = 0; while (1) { take @fib[$i++] + @fib[$i] } }; say @fib[5]
00:27 Aankhen`` ?eval my @fib := gather { take 1; take 1; my $i = 0; while ($i < 10) { take @fib[$i++] + @fib[$i] } }; @fib.say
00:27 [particle] geoffb: i'll keep you in mind for when we get Test.pm passing
00:27 geoffb [particle]: do.
00:27 [particle] then you should be able to do more coding in perl 6
00:27 Aankhen`` Bah.
00:27 * QtPlatypus thinks we have gilled eval bot?
00:27 Aankhen`` :-(
00:27 geoffb I'm just *itching* to convert a buttload of P5 to P6, but too many features are currently not impl
00:27 Aankhen`` ?eval 1
00:28 Aankhen`` Looks like it.
00:28 TimToady probably an infinite loopish thing, so needs to exceed CPU limit
00:28 Aankhen`` ,69pugs> my @fib := gather { take 1; take 1; my $i = 0; while ($i < 10) { take @fib
00:28 Aankhen`` ,69[$i++] + @fib[$i] } }; @fib.say
00:28 Aankhen`` ,69110000000000
00:30 TimToady I suspect lazy array specs aren't implemented yet either.
00:31 moritz is 1..* a lazy list or a range?
00:31 geoffb In fact, a long time ago I had to add source filtering to some of my most complex P5 code to bring a little of the P6 syntax.  Because dozens of lines containing 'my $self =shift;' and '$self->foo' just drive me insane.
00:31 TimToady moritz: it's both, presumably.
00:32 moritz TimToady: ok ;-)
00:32 geoffb TimToady++ # Now, less insane.  Or rather, less verbose in his insanity.
00:33 moritz @karma TimToady
00:33 lambdabot TimToady has a karma of 27
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04:24 cj anybody done any work on compiling to .NET bytecode yet?
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04:54 agentz @tell audreyt ~audreyt/pugs/ on feather is no longer auto-updated? yes, i see svnbot6 is still working, but your pugs_version.h has shown r15831 for days and ~audreyt/pugs/t is obviously out of date according to the snippets in http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html
04:54 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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06:20 pasteling "evalbot_r15871" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (329 lines, 18K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24110
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06:23 nothingmuch masak: i stopped in the middle but the plan was to make tarballs for every chapter based on the source code history
06:24 nothingmuch masak: you can make a branch in which you pull the code patches incrementally
06:24 nothingmuch but the project was abandoned half way when I realized that forth is too beautiful to need a parser or anything interesting in haskell ;-)
06:25 nothingmuch the thing is that forth only needs a very small bootstrap, just enough to get the ':' and ';' words working
06:25 nothingmuch and you can even define these words in forth
06:25 nothingmuch and sort of hack it in using a bootstrap compiler
06:25 nothingmuch once you have that, you can just run a prelude, and when you're done loading that, save the memory image
06:25 nothingmuch that's a typical forth system
06:26 nothingmuch the interpreter could have been written in haskell, but I had intended it to be parrot
06:26 nothingmuch however, I found learning parrot  an investment too big for my curiousity levels
06:26 nothingmuch masak: </rant>
06:27 gaal nothingmuch: moose
06:28 nothingmuch moose!
06:29 nothingmuch didn't go rowing today
06:29 nothingmuch well, i did *go*, i just didn't row
06:29 nothingmuch i was unsure whether or not we had actually made an appointment
06:29 nothingmuch so I just went
06:29 nothingmuch but it turns out we didn't finalize it
06:29 gaal oh :(
06:29 nothingmuch nevermoose, I had a nice morning bike ride
06:30 gaal yeah, that path's great.
06:30 nothingmuch how was yours?
06:30 gaal short but sweet.
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06:35 specbot6 r14368 | pmichaud++ | Add leading whitespace to lines so that the table
06:35 specbot6 r14368 | pmichaud++ | actually ends up looking like a table instead
06:35 specbot6 r14368 | pmichaud++ | of wrapping the text onto a single line.
06:35 specbot6 r14369 | larry++ | Reorganization suggested by Jonathan Lang++
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08:03 svnbot6 r15872 | franck++ |  r21212@franck-mbp:  franck | 2007-04-10 09:58:47 +0200
08:03 svnbot6 r15872 | franck++ |  ported File::Util to p6
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11:33 masak nothingmuch: anyway, I'm grateful for what you did write, and like it so far @ 04.kwid
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11:55 nothingmuch masak: cool
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12:01 Zaba hi all
12:01 Zaba ?eval [~] <m oo se>
12:01 evalbot_r15871 is now known as evalbot_r15872
12:01 evalbot_r15872 "moose"
12:01 Zaba heh
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12:02 Zaba is there an approx. release date for perl6?
12:04 iblechbot joined perl6
12:05 moritz Zaba: christmas ;-)
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12:06 Zaba moritz, o'rly?
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12:06 moritz Zaba: well, we don't know which year's christmas ;-)
12:06 Zaba oh heh
12:06 Khisanth o'reilly!
12:06 moritz Zaba: and once perl6 is released, _ever_ day is christmas ;-)
12:06 Zaba :D
12:07 Khisanth then it will mutate into Lisp
12:07 Zaba nooo
12:07 Zaba lisp--
12:07 moritz "Perl 6 is just another dialect of Lisp" -- larry wall ;-)
12:08 Zaba =/
12:09 Zaba well
12:09 Zaba i don't like lisp, and i don't see perl any similiar to it
12:09 Khisanth well even when that is true it is often misleading :)
12:09 moritz Zaba: that's the beauty of perl: it's everything to eveyone ;-)
12:10 Zaba and will i have to write in p*thon is perl will become lisp? ;-)
12:10 * moritz doesn't even know lisp ;-)
12:10 Zaba (and about python, the only thing i *really* miss in perl is interactive mode
12:10 Zaba )
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12:11 Khisanth pugs already has that!
12:11 moritz Zaba: well, pugs has an interactive mode
12:11 Zaba nice
12:11 Khisanth and there is or at least someone is working on a module that provides that for perl5
12:11 moritz Zaba: http://run.pugscode.org/ if you want to test it without installing
12:12 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
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12:12 Khisanth you can just use evalbot for that :P
12:13 moritz Khisanth: it's a bit too annoying if you want to test many features
12:14 * Khisanth never found much need for an interactive mode
12:14 Zaba it doesn't handle ansi escapes ._.
12:15 Zaba e[32;01mTest
12:15 Zaba is pugs the only implementation?
12:16 moritz Zaba: no, but the most complete one
12:16 moritz Zaba: there is v6 and kp6/mp6 in the pugs repository
12:16 Zaba and parrot?
12:16 moritz Zaba: and "onion" = perl6 on parrot in the parrot repos
12:17 moritz Zaba: parrot is a virtual maschine, designed as perl6 backend...
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12:17 Zaba heh
12:17 moritz and pugs did support compiling to parrot code
12:17 Khisanth also "Failed to create a new terminal", only one visitor at a time?
12:17 moritz that's currently bit rotted
12:18 Khisanth after selecting development version
12:20 moritz same for me
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12:44 riffraff hi
12:45 moritz hi riffraff ;-)
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12:57 Zaba > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
12:58 lambdabot "42"
12:58 Zaba aha
12:58 Zaba and the point is?
13:00 riffraff Zaba, read douglas adams
13:00 spinclad ? 4*3*2*1 s'tahw
13:00 Zaba riffraff, ?
13:00 Zaba ?eval 4*3*2*1
13:00 spinclad [what's 6*9]
13:00 evalbot_r15872 24
13:00 spinclad ?eval 6*9
13:00 moritz Zaba: "the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" ;-)
13:00 Zaba spinclad, 54
13:00 evalbot_r15872 54
13:01 Zaba moritz, nooo i don't like it
13:01 spinclad eval gets it ?wrong?
13:01 riffraff well, it is humor based n his novels, you can't get it until you read those :)
13:01 Zaba ?eval print "I'm ok"
13:01 evalbot_r15872 OUTPUT[I'm ok] Bool::True
13:01 Zaba :D
13:01 lumi ?eval :13(6*9)
13:01 evalbot_r15872 69
13:01 Zaba 0,0
13:02 lumi I think it doesn't work
13:02 Zaba ?eval 9*6
13:02 evalbot_r15872 54
13:02 Zaba 0,.
13:02 lumi ?eval :13(54)
13:02 evalbot_r15872 69
13:02 Zaba ?eval 6*9
13:03 evalbot_r15872 54
13:03 spinclad ?eval :13(10_
13:03 evalbot_r15872 Error: ␤Unexpected ":13"␤expecting "::"
13:03 spinclad ?eval :13(10)
13:03 evalbot_r15872 13
13:04 moritz what's :13(10)? a pair 13 => 10?
13:05 andara Khisanth: No, but the development version is broken for PUGS_SAFEMODE=1
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13:10 spinclad ?eval :13(100)
13:10 evalbot_r15872 169
13:10 spinclad read a number in base 13
13:12 spinclad don't think you can write 13 => 10 as an adverb phrase
13:13 spinclad ?eval :13(5+5)
13:13 evalbot_r15872 13
13:13 spinclad number -> string -> number
13:16 moritz ?eval :2(1001)
13:16 evalbot_r15872 9
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13:17 moritz ?eval :13(20)
13:17 evalbot_r15872 26
13:18 spinclad ?eval :13(1c)
13:18 evalbot_r15872 Error: ␤Unexpected ":13"␤expecting "::"
13:19 spinclad ?eval :13('1c')
13:19 evalbot_r15872 25
13:20 spinclad now we need the opposite
13:20 spinclad write a number in base 13
13:21 moritz spinclad: I think that can easily be done in a library function
13:21 moritz no need to put that into the core
13:23 Zaba ?eval `ls`
13:23 evalbot_r15872 Error: Unsafe function 'Pugs::Internals::runShellCommand' called under safe mode
13:23 Zaba heh
13:23 Zaba i would except that
13:28 fglock a recent discussion on regex algorithms: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2064
13:28 lambdabot Title: Regular Expression Matching Can Be Simple And Fast | Lambda the Ultimate
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13:37 [particle] ?eval :10(:13(5+5))
13:37 evalbot_r15872 13
13:42 spinclad ?eval :13(1*10**2)
13:42 evalbot_r15872 169
13:42 spinclad oddly, this meets the spec
13:43 spinclad oop no it doesn't
13:43 spinclad pugs specbug
13:43 spinclad should be 100
13:43 [particle] i think it should be 100, too
13:44 spinclad ?eval :13(1*:13(10)**2)
13:44 evalbot_r15872 256
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13:46 spinclad the arithmetic -> number coerce-to string -> number is wrong
13:47 spinclad ?eval :13(1C)
13:47 evalbot_r15872 Error: ␤Unexpected ":13"␤expecting "::"
13:48 Zaba ?eval 10^100
13:48 evalbot_r15872 (10 ^ 100)
13:48 Zaba >_<
13:48 Zaba ?eval (10 ^ 100)
13:48 evalbot_r15872 (10 ^ 100)
13:48 Zaba ?eval print (10 ^ 100)
13:49 spinclad that's an xor-junction
13:49 moritz Zaba: use **
13:49 Zaba ah
13:49 Zaba ?eval print (10 ** 100)
13:49 evalbot_r15872 OUTPUT[one(VInt 10,VInt 100)] Bool::True
13:49 evalbot_r15872 OUTPUT[10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000] Bool::True
13:49 Zaba yayay!
13:49 Zaba ?eval 10 ** (10 ** 100)
13:49 evalbot_r15872 Inf
13:49 Zaba o.o
13:49 Zaba googolplex will be it!
13:50 spinclad you can't have everything, where would you put it?
13:50 Zaba ?
13:50 Zaba well
13:50 Zaba let's give the bot another 100**100 TB ram and seeif it can calculate that in a year then
13:51 Zaba and we'll maybe get $googolplex if we will discover it's possibleto store it in mem :P
13:52 moritz Zaba: it's easier to implement it algebraicly ;-)
13:52 spinclad lazy arithmetic would be nice here
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14:24 TimToady ?eval :13<1C>
14:24 evalbot_r15872 25
14:25 TimToady :13(1C) doesn't work because 1C is not a valid token
14:26 Zaba ?eval :10(1C)
14:26 evalbot_r15872 Error: ␤Unexpected ":10"␤expecting "::"
14:27 Zaba ?eval :10(10)
14:27 evalbot_r15872 10
14:32 Juerd ?eval :13(1B)
14:32 evalbot_r15872 Error: ␤Unexpected ":13"␤expecting "::"
14:32 Juerd ?eval :13<1B>
14:32 evalbot_r15872 24
14:32 Juerd I don't understand why this isn't 13 => "1B"
14:34 TimToady the difference is that :13() is parsed as a function with an argument while :13<> is parsed as pair with a string argument.
14:34 TimToady ?eval :foo(1+2)
14:34 evalbot_r15872 ("foo" => 3)
14:34 TimToady ?eval :foo<1+2>
14:34 evalbot_r15872 ("foo" => "1+2")
14:35 TimToady but the () form must have a valid expression inside, and 1B ain't one.
14:36 TimToady but the :<digit> form is forced to be radix notation, not pairs
14:37 TimToady you have to use fatarrow if the left side is a number.
14:37 TimToady (and you want a pair)
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14:40 TimToady that's just part of the generalization that adverb notation only allows identifiers on the left; any other expression there needs to use => instead, including 13 => '1B'
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14:43 TimToady hmm, we could possibly allow $num.^13 to go the other way.
14:44 TimToady might be too confusing with metamethods though
14:45 masak so where does the '24' come from?
14:45 [particle] 5.^13
14:45 masak ?eval :13<1B>
14:45 evalbot_r15872 24
14:45 TimToady 13 + 11
14:46 masak ok
14:46 lumi ?eval 13:<42>
14:46 evalbot_r15872 Error: ␤Unexpected ":<42"␤expecting "_", fraction, exponent, term postfix or operator
14:46 lumi Erk
14:46 lumi ?eval :13<42>
14:46 evalbot_r15872 54
14:46 masak is there anything special in the <...> that forces hexadecimal?
14:46 TimToady no
14:46 [particle] string context
14:46 lumi masak: qw
14:47 * masak a bit quizzical
14:47 TimToady :13['42']
14:47 masak seems a lot of constructs conspire here
14:47 masak TimToady: yes...
14:47 TimToady ?eval :13['42']
14:47 evalbot_r15872 42
14:47 TimToady er...
14:47 masak right
14:47 masak this is getting simpler and simpler :)
14:48 TimToady :13{'42'}
14:48 TimToady ?eval :13{'42'}
14:48 evalbot_r15872 54443306934741
14:48 masak oh...
14:48 moritz nice one ;-)
14:48 masak I see
14:48 lumi Now all becomes clear
14:48 masak not
14:48 masak yes, I'm glad you provide clear examples
14:48 TimToady looks like <> is hardwired, not generalized to the other subscript forms
14:49 TimToady but then that's probably not specced, so it's making up random numbers.
14:49 TimToady :)
14:49 masak back to :13<1B>
14:49 masak what happens, step by step?
14:49 masak it's a pair, yes?
14:49 TimToady parsed as one initially
14:49 masak like 13 => '1B'
14:49 TimToady so '13' => '1B'
14:49 masak yes
14:50 masak whence 24?
14:50 TimToady then because of : and because of it being a number and not and identifier
14:50 TimToady it's forced to mean radix conversion
14:50 masak <1B> is?
14:50 TimToady 1B in base 13 is 13 + 11
14:50 masak aha
14:50 TimToady 1A would be 13 + 10
14:51 masak for some reason I thought the radix conversion went the other way
14:51 masak and it confused me that the radix was in (what looked like) hex
14:51 TimToady no, it's for specifying the number in whatever base is convenient.
14:51 TimToady mostly for literals, but the functional form fell out of it.
14:51 masak so :13<1B> simply means "1B parsed as a base-13 number"
14:52 TimToady ?eval :13('1B')
14:52 evalbot_r15872 24
14:52 TimToady yes
14:52 * masak understands
14:52 masak thx
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14:52 moritz ?eval my $b = 5; :$b('11')
14:52 evalbot_r15872 Error: Cannot cast from VList [VStr "b",VInt 5] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
14:53 TimToady have to use the radix() function for that.
14:53 moritz ok ;-)
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14:57 jerrylee how's everything going on perl6 now?
14:59 moritz well, it's evolving ;-)
14:59 masak at quite a steady pace, actually
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15:00 TimToady there's a steady baseline pace defined by the tortoises, with occasional bursts of speed defined by the hares.
15:01 TimToady we don't expect the tortoises to go fast, nor do we expect the hares to go constantly.
15:02 masak true. hacker-like creativity is a bit like rocket fuel in that sense
15:02 [particle] TimToady: don't forget about the mooses
15:02 TimToady mooses generally don't go at all
15:02 [particle] but they're nice to look at
15:02 jerrylee the development is mainly in parrot?
15:03 jerrylee I have been waiting it for about 5 years ;)
15:03 TimToady that's okay, I've been waiting for 6.5 years.  :)
15:03 jerrylee TimToday: :D cool
15:04 jerrylee and I am still waiting
15:04 masak jerrylee: have you tried pugs lately?
15:04 TimToady basically, parrot is working bottom up, and pugs is working top down, and someday they'll meet in the middle.
15:04 masak ?eval "hello from pugs"
15:04 evalbot_r15872 "hello from pugs"
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15:04 jerrylee masak: latest version? not yet
15:05 jerrylee i will go take one
15:05 [particle] how close is 6.28 release?
15:05 masak [particle]: guess it depends mostly on the hares right now
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15:06 jerrylee well, run it in browser is really cool
15:07 masak jerrylee: writing small scripts is cool too
15:07 masak the holes are only noticeable once you start toying with OO
15:07 jerrylee masak: interesting thing, is it a really pug machine behind?
15:08 jerrylee or just some cgi?
15:08 [particle] yes, the hampsters weren't cute enough
15:08 [particle] y/p//
15:08 masak jerrylee: not sure what you mean by that
15:08 masak it's pugs that's running there through that web page, yes
15:08 masak but it's also some cgi
15:09 jerrylee masak: then it's really cool
15:09 masak of course
15:09 masak that's what we do here
15:09 masak :)
15:09 jerrylee pugs> :e print 'hello'
15:09 jerrylee Loading Prelude... done.
15:09 jerrylee helloVBool True
15:09 jerrylee this is really strange ;)
15:09 masak jerrylee: you probably don't want the ":e"
15:10 TimToady ?eval say 'hello'
15:10 evalbot_r15872 OUTPUT[hello␤] Bool::True
15:10 masak ?eval 'hello'
15:10 evalbot_r15872 "hello"
15:10 jerrylee ha, i got it
15:11 TimToady jerrylee: would you like a commit bit?
15:11 jerrylee all features of perl6 are loaded?
15:11 TimToady all the implemented features... :/
15:11 jerrylee TimToady: commit bit?
15:11 masak jerrylee: writing permissions for the pugs project
15:11 TimToady to be able to check in fixes/tests to pugs
15:12 masak most people in here have one
15:12 TimToady we hand 'em out like candy
15:12 jerrylee TimToady: sounds good thing to try
15:12 masak that's the spirit!
15:12 TimToady msg me your email and we'll add you
15:12 jerrylee TimToady: I might need some candy
15:12 moritz you virtually can'T hang around here longer than 5min without getting one ;-)
15:13 masak it's such a wonderful system
15:13 masak most people who are in the least interested are committers
15:13 jerrylee how to register freenode?
15:13 jerrylee I cannot send private message
15:14 riffraff write /msg nickserv help
15:14 moritz and it works... at least it encouraged me to do a few commits
15:14 jerrylee riffraff: thanks, trying now
15:14 riffraff I think to register is /ns register email paswsord or something like that
15:15 jerrylee TimToady: did you get that?
15:15 rindolf Hi TimToady , moritz
15:15 moritz hi rindolf ;-)
15:16 rindolf moritz: what's up?
15:16 rindolf An Israeli friend told me "sup with you?" on IM.
15:16 rindolf It sounded strange.
15:16 TimToady yes, commit bit is on its way
15:16 moritz rindolf: I'm writing a german webpage on perl6 ;-)
15:16 rindolf His English is relatively bad.
15:16 rindolf moritz: oh nice.
15:17 TimToady jerrylee: it is customary to add yourself to AUTHORS as first checkin to see if it all works.
15:18 jerrylee TimToady: no problem
15:18 andara hi all
15:19 moritz hi andara ;-)
15:19 andara moritz: do you have an account on feather?
15:22 jerrylee svn-ing now
15:22 moritz andara: no
15:23 rindolf moritz: I've invested some time on http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ - also a bit today.
15:23 rindolf moritz: I hope I can give it a more official status soon.
15:23 lambdabot Title: Perl Beginners' Site
15:23 andara moritz: shame. I'm looking for someone who could build pugs on feather for me.
15:24 moritz andara: and do you think I'am qualified? ;-)
15:25 andara moritz: why not? you have a commit bit :-)
15:25 moritz andara: ;-)
15:25 moritz andara: I have debian packages, but I don't know if you can install them on feather...
15:26 moritz andara: they install globally, eg in /usr/bin/, not the kind of thing you want on a multi user maschine
15:26 andara moritz: I know how to build pugs just fine, but because I host runpugs, my account is ulimit'ed
15:27 andara moritz: so I can't build pugs while running runpugs :-(
15:27 jerrylee pugs is really a big thing
15:27 moritz andara: maybe you should ask Juerd for another account
15:27 moritz andara: that might be the cleanest solution
15:27 andara moritz: I agree.
15:28 masak jerrylee: yes. and a lot of things in it already work
15:28 andara moritz: BTW, are you still in Heriot-Watt?
15:28 moritz andara: yes
15:28 masak ie they implement perl6 correctly
15:28 andara moritz: I'm at Glasgow
15:28 moritz andara: hey, cool
15:28 jerrylee masak: it's still svn=ing, maybe my internet connection is too slwo
15:31 masak jerrylee: maybe, or maybe pugs takes a while to download regardless of connection
15:31 masak but only the checkout, of course
15:31 jerrylee it looks so ;)
15:32 masak subsequent updates are much speedier
15:33 jerrylee masak: it's not running on windows, is it?
15:34 TimToady jerrylee: for where it runs and how well, see http://m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl?
15:34 lambdabot Title: Pugs Smoke Reports
15:34 TimToady looks like it's working as well on Windows as on Linux
15:34 TimToady (look at the repository lines, not the release lines)
15:34 DarkWolf84 joined perl6
15:36 jerrylee can i make it on windows?
15:37 TimToady if you have ghc installed, yes
15:37 [particle] TimToady: pmichaud has been converting pge tests to use active comments (# todo). based on this work, we're thinking about some extensions to the syntax
15:37 [particle] for an example of what's done, see http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/t/compilers/pge/perl6regex/rx_charclass
15:37 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/292jz2
15:38 [particle] near the bottom, there's a bunch of todo for pugs, all the same. a block syntax would be prettier
15:39 [particle] C<<# todo :pugs<feature> {>> paired with C<<# todo :pugs<feature> }>> maybe?
15:39 TimToady could get confusing if different platforms want different blocks...
15:39 [particle] or, make block syntax TODO
15:40 [particle] uppercase would make it similar to p5
15:40 [particle] as you say, you definitely need some way to distinguish between overlapping todo blocks
15:40 TimToady similarity to p5 is not necessarily a recommendation around here.  :)
15:42 [particle] it'd be nice to have the block be easily visually distinguished from non-block
15:42 [particle] i think it should be different near the front, and not near the back
15:43 [particle] # todo-block-begin :pugs<feature> seems too verbose
15:43 TimToady I'm not yet convinced the blocks are needed.  There's something to be said for ugly when you want to motivate people to untodo things.  :)
15:44 masak jerrylee: how's the downloading going?
15:44 jerrylee masak: i am now learning how to build it on my xp pc
15:45 jerrylee masak: all downloaded
15:45 jerrylee 58MB, hweh
15:47 [particle] TimToady: how about # skipall :parrot<not yet implemented>
15:47 * jerrylee is wondering why GHC is so big
15:47 masak jerrylee: you can still make that AUTHORS file commit, you know
15:48 masak even without building pugs
15:48 [particle] hurry, before your bit runs out!!!! ;)
15:48 masak :)
15:48 [particle] TimToady: i'm not sure about skipall, but i'd like to see # spec
15:48 jerrylee masak: oh haha ;)
15:49 [particle] have any thoughts about that?
15:49 jerrylee masak: how shall i do that is fastest?
15:49 TimToady [particle]: what does it do?
15:50 masak jerrylee: add yourself to AUTHORS using your favorite editor
15:50 masak and then do "svn ci AUTHORS"
15:51 masak that's "svn commit AUTHORS" -- either works
15:51 jerrylee masak: ok, i will make it happen asap
15:51 masak jerrylee: swell
15:51 TimToady jerrylee: on the other hand, don't let the gang give you grief.  :)
15:52 jerrylee TimToady: :D
15:52 jerrylee i am beating them
15:53 TimToady that will not, of course, prevent them from giving you grief.  :)
15:53 masak in fact, beating a gang has been known to make it give even more grief
15:53 masak not this gang, though
15:54 masak we just assimilate
15:54 TimToady we're all either thick-skinned or thin-skinned around here as the need arises.  :)
15:55 masak exactly :) we don't take offense so easily, because we evaluate insults lazily
15:55 [particle] TimToady: a new smartlink syntax, eg. # spec PDD15<Role PMC API>
15:56 [particle] (i forgot a colon)
15:56 jerrylee ;)
15:57 TimToady I'd try to make the syntax as close to the current smartlink syntax as possible.  Basically these comments are standing in for what would be in the .t file, except that the .t file is using a data file of some sort.
15:58 TimToady and in fact I'd like to get the :todo entries out of the tests in the .t files as well.
15:58 [particle] ok. then we need a new pod smartlink syntax
15:58 [particle] TimToady: you were the one who argued *for* them last time around, you big fence-sitter :P
15:58 TimToady I think currently they're using L<DOC/section/searchstring>
15:58 TimToady or some such
15:59 [particle] yes, which isn't even valid p5 pod syntax (but an easy extension)
15:59 TimToady argued for which?  I was arguing for todo() on a separate line back then too.
15:59 [particle] oh, i missed the colon in your message
15:59 TimToady something that can in theory just be visually grepped out when you aren't interested
16:00 * jerrylee is doing svn cleanup
16:00 [particle] so, you'd like to see # todo in .t files?
16:00 TimToady oh, okay
16:00 TimToady either # todo or todo(...) as a function call
16:01 masak jerrylee: why?
16:01 [particle] i thought todo/skip/spec looked nice together
16:01 TimToady todo(:pge<feature>) could work
16:01 jerrylee masak: ha, I used cygwin to do svn, it failed ;)
16:02 TimToady using todo() rather than # todo has the advantage of being processable without preprocessing the .t file
16:02 jerrylee masak: i have cygwin in windows as linux emul
16:02 TimToady smart comments would require a pass over the text
16:02 [particle] right, in data files, # todo works better
16:02 TimToady important thing is to get it out to a separate line.
16:02 [particle] ...so you don't have to execute the data file
16:03 TimToady maybe we could have skip and unskip
16:03 * jerrylee has update AUTHORS, new build is 15873 ;)
16:03 svnbot6 r15873 | jerrylee++ | Added Jerry Lee
16:03 masak wei!
16:03 TimToady sugoi!
16:04 jerrylee sorry for my slow motion ;)
16:04 TimToady no problem, most of us here are tortoises
16:04 masak yes. welcome
16:04 TimToady the hares are mostly sleeping right now
16:05 TimToady or should be...
16:05 jerrylee :) interesting
16:06 [particle] jerrylee: fáilte
16:06 jerrylee i guess tomorrow I should try to build it
16:06 jerrylee irish?
16:08 [particle] yep, irish
16:08 xinming joined perl6
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16:08 TimToady it ain't japanese...
16:08 masak jerrylee: good luck. that windows thing sure sounds like a pain
16:08 * masak curses under his breath for missing obvious pun moment
16:08 TimToady if you have trouble look up Lanny or Limbic_Region
16:08 jerrylee no problem
16:09 [particle] you can also use the many bots hanging out here
16:09 [particle] @tell jerrylee hello
16:09 lambdabot Consider it noted.
16:09 [particle] jerrylee: say something
16:09 xinming joined perl6
16:09 [particle] @tell particle hello
16:09 lambdabot Consider it noted.
16:09 moritz ?eval say "something" # ;-)
16:09 [particle] hee
16:10 evalbot_r15872 OUTPUT[something␤] Bool::True
16:10 jerrylee bots?
16:10 lambdabot jerrylee: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:10 [particle] see
16:10 masak @tell evalbot_r15873 hello
16:10 lambdabot Consider it noted.
16:10 moritz ?eval 1
16:10 evalbot_r15872 is now known as evalbot_r15873
16:10 evalbot_r15873 1
16:10 lambdabot evalbot_r15873: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:10 masak he he
16:10 xinming joined perl6
16:10 moritz ?eval "@messages"
16:10 evalbot_r15873 "\@messages"
16:10 [particle] @tell evalbot_r15873 ?eval fork while fork;
16:10 lambdabot Consider it noted.
16:11 jerrylee very interesting bot
16:11 Juerd Sigh :)
16:11 masak [particle]: now that's just eeevil
16:11 [particle] :)
16:11 masak &
16:11 TimToady ?eval fork
16:11 evalbot_r15873 Error: Unsafe function 'fork' called under safe mode
16:11 lambdabot evalbot_r15873: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:17 prly joined perl6
16:22 Zaba dude
16:22 Zaba it's evil >_>
16:22 Zaba it can't read its messages
16:22 prly__ joined perl6
16:22 [particle] somebody will just have to commit something
16:22 Tene ?eval @moosages
16:22 evalbot_r15873 []
16:22 Tene ?eval \@moosages
16:22 evalbot_r15873 []
16:23 Tene ?eval "@moosages"
16:23 evalbot_r15873 "\@moosages"
16:23 jerrylee ?eval
16:23 evalbot_r15873 No code to eval given.
16:23 jerrylee ?eval "say hi"
16:23 evalbot_r15873 "say hi"
16:23 jerrylee ?eval sleep
16:23 evalbot_r15873 Error: ␤Unexpected end of input
16:24 jerrylee ?eval exit
16:24 evalbot_r15873 Error: Unsafe function 'exit' called under safe mode
16:27 prly___ joined perl6
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16:29 jerrylee ?eval say hi while (1)
16:29 evalbot_r15873 Error: No such subroutine: &hi
16:29 jerrylee ?eval print  while (1)
16:29 jerrylee what's going on
16:30 DarkWolf84 while(1) ^^
16:30 jerrylee ?eval fork
16:30 evalbot_r15873 OUTPUT[
16:30 DarkWolf84 thats cruel :)
16:30 evalbot_r15873 Error: Unsafe function 'fork' called under safe mode
16:30 * [particle] pokes evalbot_r15873
16:30 jerrylee but it did works
16:31 jerrylee maybe it's no safe enough ;)
16:32 lichtkind_ joined perl6
16:32 jerrylee ? eval print "hi"
16:32 jerrylee ?eval print "hi"
16:32 evalbot_r15873 OUTPUT[hi] Bool::True
16:33 * jerrylee is really sleepy
16:33 jerrylee time to say goodnight :)
16:33 moritz jerrylee: night ;-)
16:33 jerrylee bye guys :)
16:34 jerrylee bye moritz
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17:39 Limbic_Region @seen audreyt
17:39 lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6 and #haskell. I last heard audreyt speak 11h 21m 44s ago.
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17:52 svnbot6 r15874 | fglock++ | - updated v6/yapc-sa-hackathon.txt
17:53 explorer joined perl6
17:54 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
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18:05 spinclad ?eval :13<1*:13<10>**2>
18:05 evalbot_r15873 is now known as evalbot_r15874
18:05 evalbot_r15874 406616
18:06 Limbic_Region reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
18:06 Limbic_Region reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
18:06 Limbic_Region grrr
18:07 moritz Limbic_Region: I think you need a '> ' in front
18:07 Limbic_Region moritz, no - it is this terrible IRC client I am forced to use
18:07 spinclad ?eval :13<113102>
18:07 evalbot_r15874 406616
18:08 Limbic_Region but c'est la vie
18:08 moritz oui, c'est vrai ;-)
18:09 spinclad so pugs doesn't have the specced exponential form...
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18:35 svnbot6 r15875 | lwall++ | Don't need to indirect stoppers when <?before($stop)> can take arg directly.
18:35 svnbot6 r15875 | lwall++ | Teach cheater to translate $.expect* calls to subrule calls.
18:38 pasteling "evalbot_r15874" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (15 lines, 593B) at http://sial.org/pbot/24119
18:40 TimToady strange, builds here
18:41 moritz usually a "make realclean" will do ;-)
18:52 jisom anyone have any clue as to how to get ghc running on freebsd/amd64
18:54 TimToady looks like clkao was doing smokes on freebsd back in October
18:55 TimToady but he's probably in bed right now
18:57 jisom there's an x86 version in ports for freebsd, but it's i386 only(probably a bootstrapping problem)
18:57 yiwin left perl6
18:57 TimToady on the bright side, the smokes look like 64bit
18:57 TimToady says archname: i386-freebsd-64int
18:58 TimToady perhaps you will be doing "original research"
18:59 jisom eh, doubtfully, but maybe independent research
19:00 jisom but that's worse
19:00 gaal jisom: funny, there's a thread on that on ghcusers just now
19:00 gaal glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org
19:01 gaal the short of it, in libraries/base/Text/Regex/Posix.hs change
19:01 gaal -      nsub <- ((\hsc_ptr -> peekByteOff hsc_ptr 4)) regex_ptr
19:01 gaal +      nsub <- ((\hsc_ptr -> peekByteOff hsc_ptr 8)) regex_ptr
19:01 gaal if you're building your own ghc
19:01 gaal but look out for further patches.
19:02 jisom yeah, it's fairly high up on google for "ghc freebsd amd64" actually....
19:02 gaal (and a binary...)
19:02 TimToady fix one hardwired constant with another...cool... :/
19:03 gaal TimToady: it's a generated constant, but the unfortunate thing is that it's generated on a different machine
19:03 TimToady that would be a problem
19:03 jisom so the cross compiler part doesn't really do enough cross compiling?
19:03 TimToady but you'd think the Haskell folks would be about the last to fall into the trap of too little abstraction.  :)
19:04 gaal "This will be fixed as a side effect of http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/1160."
19:04 ortmage_ joined perl6
19:04 lambdabot Title: #1160 (drop regex-posix in favour of regex-tdfa?) - GHC - Trac
19:04 gaal jisom: the compiler doesn't see it, it's in hsc2hs
19:04 TimToady tdfa?  to-die-for algorithm?
19:05 jisom then I'll get to look into the other issues with freebsd/amd64, which might involve freebsd using amd64 instead of x86_64
19:05 xdg quick question: how is v6.pm going?
19:07 the_dormant joined perl6
19:08 the_dormant joined perl6
19:08 TimToady xdg: quick answer: fglock has mostly been working on mp6 and kp6 recently.
19:09 xdg Could I please get a translation of  mp and kp?  
19:09 TimToady miniperl and kindaperl
19:10 TimToady subsets intended for bootstrapping
19:10 * xdg watches the Perl 6 learning curve get steeper...
19:10 TimToady you don't have to learn them unless you're into bootstrapping.  :)
19:11 xdg I was going to mention v6.pm on Win32 for my Vanilla Perl talk, but I may not if development on it is stalled or if its irrelevant
19:13 TimToady well, the main problem with v6 is the same as all the other current implementations, which is that they're not using a parser written in p6.
19:13 fglock hi
19:13 TimToady I'll let fglock answer for the rest of it... :)
19:13 fglock :)
19:14 fglock v6.pm got some maintenance lately, but it needs a cpan upload
19:14 TimToady to what extent is v6 blocking on issue in the p5 runtime?
19:14 fglock it currently depends on an update of Sub::Multi
19:14 TimToady *issues
19:15 fglock it's not really blocking; I plan to replace parts of v6 with kp6 routines
19:15 fglock maybe depending on the yapc::sa hackathon results
19:15 prism joined perl6
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19:17 fglock the long-term idea is to start sharing more code between kp6 and v6, until v6 and 6-on-6 become almost the same thing
19:17 xdg fglock: thanks for the overview.  So if I mention in in a Win32 talk, it's still a relevant project, then...
19:18 xdg *it
19:18 fglock xdg: mp6 also runs on perl5; but it is written in a subset of perl6
19:19 xdg I feel doomed to step into the Escher and ask what parses mp6
19:20 fglock re using a parser written in perl6, it is in the works; but currently it is not worth the trouble, there are some things to do first
19:20 rhr joined perl6
19:21 fglock xdg: mp6 parses mp6; see http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/docs/
19:21 lambdabot Title: Revision 15875: /v6/docs
19:23 xdg And the mp6 emitter to backend "X" isn't written yet?
19:24 fglock it depends on X
19:26 fglock by the end of the week there will be a hackathon, we plan to port mp6 to pugs (and possibly parrot)
19:26 xdg For which X are there emitters?
19:26 fglock currently perl5 (bootstrapped), parrot (incomplete)
19:27 fglock I started some C work, but it doesn't look promising
19:28 * xdg glances around the twisty maze of passages in despair
19:28 [particle] re: parrot (incomplete) ...i see that all too often :(
19:29 fglock I need to find out what is the current state of perl6-in-parrot, in order to write code for it
19:30 xdg fglock: thanks for walking me through all that.  I've got to get back to real work now, but look forward to seeing how it all turns out.  
19:30 * kattana_ runs around a corner in the maze and bumps into xdg
19:30 fglock xdg: ok :)
19:36 [particle] fglock: feel free to join us on #parrot for answers
19:37 larsen_ joined perl6
19:41 spinclad fglock: pmichaud mentioned in #parrotsketch today :
19:41 svnbot6 r15877 | franck++ |  r21237@franck-mbp:  franck | 2007-04-10 21:38:17 +0200
19:41 svnbot6 r15877 | franck++ |  File::Find : follow (or not) symlink with follow attribute
19:41 svnbot6 r15877 | franck++ |  File::Util : code for isbin filetype
19:41 spinclad 14:36:40 < pmichaud> * I also spent a fair bit of time examining fglock++'s "miniperl6" implementation in pugs, now that  I understand what it's doing
19:41 spinclad 14:36:43 < pmichaud> * I may see about taking a miniperl6-like approach with some of Parrot's translation tools
19:41 baest joined perl6
19:41 spinclad 14:36:46 < pmichaud> * I also spent some time looking at generator/iterator ideas over the weekend so that I can get that  part of perl6 implemented
19:54 rashakil_ joined perl6
19:57 fglock [particle]: thanks; I'm installing a newer parrot
19:59 fglock hmm - I hope we could join forces some day
20:00 fglock anyway, if there is some reuse it's ok
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20:01 fglock TimToady: I found out I can implement regex "|" using the current <%hash> code
20:01 fglock only doing some pre-processing
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20:08 fglock spinclad: miniperl6 was actually meant for parrot
20:08 fglock I wonder if pm would help with kp6
20:08 pjcj joined perl6
20:09 fglock but it is nice to see he is interested :)
20:09 spinclad ask him -- i want to see you two working together
20:09 [particle] meetoo
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21:45 lichtkind joined perl6
21:45 lichtkind ?eval do{}
21:45 evalbot_r15874 is now known as evalbot_r15877
21:45 evalbot_r15877 undef
21:45 lichtkind ?eval do{1}
21:45 evalbot_r15877 1
21:45 lichtkind ?eval do{...}
21:45 evalbot_r15877 Error: Cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
21:45 Polar joined perl6
21:45 lichtkind ?eval sub arg{...}
21:46 evalbot_r15877 undef
21:46 lichtkind ?eval sub arg{}
21:46 evalbot_r15877 undef
21:46 lichtkind ?eval sub arg{!!!}
21:46 evalbot_r15877 undef
21:46 lichtkind ?eval sub arg{}; arg;
21:46 evalbot_r15877 undef
21:46 lichtkind ?eval sub arg{!!!}; arg;
21:46 evalbot_r15877 Error: !!! - not yet implemented
21:46 lichtkind ahhh
21:47 Tene ?eval sub arg{...}; arg;
21:47 evalbot_r15877 *** ... - not yet implemented␤    at <eval> line 1, column 9-12
21:51 FurnaceBoy joined perl6
23:01 Odin- joined perl6
23:02 Polar joined perl6
23:10 perlmonkey2 left perl6
23:10 prly___ ?eval
23:10 prly___ sub f1($a,$b){say "$a:$b"}; sub invo($f,*@args){$f(|@args)}; invo(&f1,2,5)
23:10 evalbot_r15877 No code to eval given.
23:10 prly___ ?eval sub f1($a,$b){say "$a:$b"}; sub invo($f,*@args){$f(|@args)}; invo(&f1,2,5)
23:10 evalbot_r15877 OUTPUT[2:5␤] Bool::True
23:11 prly___ ?eval sub f1($a,$b){say "$a:$b"}; class foo{has $.f; method invo(*@args){$.f.(|@args)}}; foo.new(f=>&f1).invo(2,5)
23:11 evalbot_r15877 OUTPUT[2 5:␤] Bool::True
23:14 prly___ there must be something I didn't understand properly
23:14 prly___ shouldn't they produce the same result ?
23:23 TimToady I'd think so.  I can't even get it to compile in my pugs though... :(
23:24 mr_ank joined perl6
23:24 TimToady says: *** Undeclared variable: $b at try line 1, column 22-30
23:25 Limbic_Region TimToady - do you know since what build?
23:25 * Limbic_Region hasn't tried in a few days because there didn't appear to be any significant updates
23:25 TimToady no, I'm at 15875
23:26 Limbic_Region ok - will check my current pugs (which is built)
23:26 Limbic_Region hrm, this doesn't look right
23:26 Limbic_Region r15836
23:27 Limbic_Region will attempt to build anyhow
23:27 meppl joined perl6
23:27 marmic joined perl6
23:31 Limbic_Region pugs built fine for me as of r15837
23:31 Limbic_Region er
23:31 Limbic_Region r15877
23:35 gnuvince_ joined perl6
23:36 gnuvince_ > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1  [1..] !! 4))
23:36 lambdabot "42"
23:36 gnuvince_ > scanl
23:36 lambdabot Add a type signature
23:38 TimToady hmm, it actually parses, it's the |@args that isn't binding right, so it seems to be roughly the same error that prly___ is getting.
23:39 TimToady except I'm getting a strictness error
23:39 TimToady and evalbot seems not to care about the unbound $b
23:41 TimToady would be nice if pugs didn't report an undefined parameter as undeclared though...
23:41 TimToady by the way, changing the example to use (*$a, *$b) makes it work.
23:42 TimToady ?eval sub f1 (*$a, *$b) { say "$a:$b" }; class foo { has $.f; method invo (*@args) { $.f.(@args) } }; foo.new(f=>&f1).invo(2,5)
23:42 evalbot_r15877 OUTPUT[2:5␤] Bool::True
23:43 TimToady so it appears that |@args in a method call is what is hosed.
23:46 buetow joined perl6
23:48 MikeJS__ is now known as MikeJS

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