Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:48 svnbot6 r15878 | lwall++ | don't use obsolete each() in 99problems
00:48 svnbot6 r15878 | lwall++ | work around "return if" problem.
00:50 pasteling "evalbot_r15877" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (328 lines, 18K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24123
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01:12 svnbot6 r15879 | lwall++ | Add test for "return if" problem".
01:16 pasteling "evalbot_r15878" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (289 lines, 15.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24124
01:16 svnbot6 r15880 | lwall++ | Make subrule reinstall give more feedback on failure.
01:19 svnbot6 r15881 | lwall++ | forgot to add props to if3.t
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01:37 svnbot6 r15882 | unobe++ | * reworked package-osx.pl script (will use w/buildbot soon)
01:37 svnbot6 r15882 | unobe++ | ** need to finish .pkg and .dmg creation steps
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08:21 svnbot6 r15883 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : updated VERSION docs in all .pm files to specify 'for Perl 6'
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08:36 dduncan what you say?
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11:38 wolverian Juerd, feather's missing the fi_FI.UTF-8 locale. I don't see an english UTF-8 locale either.
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12:31 gaal wolverian: fixing
12:31 gaal fixed
12:47 Juerd wolverian: I emptied /etc/locale.gen recently because it broke
12:47 Juerd Haven't had tuits to refill it
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13:34 svnbot6 r15884 | fglock++ | - updated v6/yapc-sa-hackathon.txt
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14:17 nwc10 fa_UR.utf8 is a locale worth getting
14:17 nwc10 oops
14:17 nwc10 fa_IR.UTF-8
14:17 nwc10 the decimal separator is not in the ASCII range
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14:28 avar pugs svn?
14:28 gaal is that Iranian Farsi? # guessing
14:28 avar hrm, where is the svn again?
14:28 moritz avar: http://svn.pugscode.org/trunk/
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14:29 gaal oh, he left.
14:29 avar http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ actually:)
14:29 lambdabot Title: Revision 15884: /
14:30 moritz oh, sorry ;-)
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15:25 lichtkind moritz: weisst du wo larry gebohren wurde?
15:26 moritz lichtkind: noe
15:26 lichtkind moritz:  habe nämlich gemerkt das unser artikel amiland sagt aber en original kanada
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15:43 lichtkind TimToady: it is corecct that you are born in duncan? thanks
15:43 rgs duncan, idaho ?
15:44 lichtkind i love dune
15:44 lichtkind no duncon, british columbia
15:44 rgs apparently there are five duncan in the USA, but none of them are in idaho
15:45 lichtkind i thought that you mean duncan idaho  the figure from the dune novel
15:46 rgs that was a pun, yes
15:51 TimToady no, I wasn't born in any place named Duncan.
15:51 TimToady I was born near LA
15:51 TimToady and I don't mean Louisiana...
15:52 geoffb You're from Southern California?  And you did something good for humanity?  Wow, maybe there's hope for us all ....  ;-)
15:53 TimToady I'm "from" all up and down the west coast, depending on how you care to define "from".
15:54 jerrylee building pugs is really not easy
15:54 * geoffb resembles that remark ...
15:54 TimToady on Windows?
15:54 jerrylee yes
15:54 [particle] is that why i see all those "larry wall raised here - next exit" signs on the highways?
15:54 TimToady yep
15:56 TimToady you'll notice none of them say "grew up" though.
15:56 jerrylee it took me all night to build it
15:56 TimToady how much memory?
15:56 fglock [particle]: do you know how much of class/namespace is implemented in p6-in-parrot? there are no tests for this
15:57 jerrylee install ghc, activeperl, nmake ...
15:57 [particle] i don't know if it's implemented at all
15:57 fglock k
15:57 jerrylee 512m
15:57 [particle] if i recall, it was waiting the object implementation, which we now have
15:58 TimToady 512 works but tends to thrash ghc a bit.  My compiles got a lot faster after I upped it to 1.5M
15:59 TimToady (though that was with ghc 6.4; don't know if 6.6 is still that hungry)
15:59 jerrylee and it's not easy for newbie to do it :) (though i am not newbie)
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16:00 TimToady most everyone here is a trooper, or too new to figure out that they're not.  :)
16:01 gaal 6.6 is still hungry, yes, but all other things being equal is much faster.
16:01 TimToady the attitude we have to guard against as we go forward is "It was hard for me, so it has to be hard for everyone else now too"
16:02 moritz jerrylee: I have 512mb RAM too, minus a bit video ram.. it swaps but it compiles (if you are patient ;-)
16:02 TimToady I don't mind some vicarious suffering, as long as it really is alleviating someone else's future pain.  But if not...
16:02 gaal er, certainly not saying that 6.6 being hungry's a good thing. :)
16:03 jerrylee moritz: it's compiling, though used all resources ;)
16:05 TimToady moritz: can you borrow some extra ram and see if your smoke still fails?
16:06 TimToady or maybe add more swap space?
16:06 moritz TimToady: no, I have a ~3 yrs old laptop, and I don't know anybody around with compatible ram
16:06 TimToady running what?
16:06 moritz TimToady: but I do have 1G swap, and that's never full
16:06 moritz debian
16:07 TimToady hmm
16:07 TimToady well, scratch that theory then
16:07 PerlJam moritz: the laptop is 3 years old, but how old is the debian?  ;)
16:07 geoffb moritz: Are you running with X, or sitting at console?
16:07 moritz PerlJam: released on sunday ;-)
16:07 * [particle] scratches david wheeler
16:07 moritz geoffb: with X + FVWM
16:08 PerlJam moritz: try turning off all that X stuff and compile again.
16:08 geoffb moritz: you might consider going telinit 1 and doing the compile, and see how that goes
16:08 TimToady I was more addressing the smoke failure mentioned on p6c
16:08 moritz PerlJam, geoffb: I'll do that tonight before going to bed
16:08 geoffb or rebooting to 'single'
16:08 PerlJam I know the first time I compiled pugs, I had to do it without X running. (though my situation changed such that it wasn't a problem)
16:15 TimToady bbl &
16:15 wolverian Juerd, thanks! you're a very gracious host. Juerd++
16:16 Juerd wolverian: Can I delegate adding all the locales to you?
16:17 wolverian Juerd, sure. I don't think I have sudo right now though
16:17 wolverian Juerd, you want them _all_?
16:18 Juerd Yes, all
16:18 wolverian I can do that.
16:18 Juerd You have sudo access now
16:18 wolverian just manual work, I think. :)
16:18 wolverian thanks.
16:19 Juerd There's probably a list of all locales, but I cuoldn't find it
16:19 Juerd Thank *you*
16:19 moritz dpkg-reconfigure locales should do
16:19 wolverian yup, doing that now.
16:19 moritz Debian++
16:19 wolverian it's just annoying to click down check click down check down check down check ....
16:20 wolverian oh wait, there's "All locales" :)
16:20 wolverian Juerd, what's the default locale?
16:20 moritz Debian++ # for debconf ;-)
16:20 wolverian Juerd, that is, do you have a preference? :)
16:20 moritz I think "C" should be just fine?
16:21 PerlJam Juerd: Am I just a little off, or are you delegating blame?  "It's wolverian's fault the locales are still broken"  :)
16:21 Juerd wolverian: System locale should be C
16:22 wolverian okay.
16:22 wolverian generating now. should be fixed when it's done.
16:22 Juerd i.e. there shouldn't be any locale by default
16:22 Juerd Great, thanks
16:22 Juerd PerlJam: Yep.
16:22 Juerd :)
16:22 wolverian delegating is fine as long as I have a clue what to do. with debian, I usually do.
16:24 wolverian I guess I'm an easy target. (;
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16:27 wolverian at "b"...
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16:33 moritz TimToady: sorry I only replied to you, not to the list.. will do that now
16:35 svnbot6 r15885 | fglock++ | mp6 - MiniPerl6::Perl6Parrot::Emitter placeholder
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16:38 gaal generating all utf-8 locales would take forever
16:38 gaal and will happen every time $that_package is updated
16:39 moritz utf-8 is overrated ;-)
16:40 gaal is it? it's pretty nifty.
16:40 pasteling "evalbot_r15884" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (61 lines, 2.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24142
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16:40 TimToady it's also underrated. :)
16:40 Juerd 18:38 < gaal> generating all utf-8 locales would take forever
16:40 Juerd 18:38 < gaal> and will happen every time $that_package is updated
16:40 Juerd It's okay this time because wolverian does it :)
16:40 pasteling "evalbot_r15884" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (182 lines, 9.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24143
16:40 Juerd And it's okay during upgrades because I never attend them anyway
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16:41 Juerd feather has always had the full locale list installed, until last saturday
16:41 wolverian the locales aren't updated that often, anyway.
16:41 gaal *shrug*
16:41 wolverian screen++
16:41 Juerd It takes 45 minutes or so
16:41 gaal i'm used to my slow machine at home where i'm always impatient
16:41 * moritz converted his homepage yesterday from latin1 to utf-8
16:42 gaal screen++ indeed
16:43 * Juerd is considering using utf-32 because it compresses extremely well... ;)
16:43 jrockway why isn't there a utf-24?
16:43 gaal may I propose for that purpose UTF-64
16:44 moritz jrockway: because 24 isn't 2^n, n integer ;-)
16:44 moritz jrockway: and computer scientists love powers of 2
16:44 xinming_ utf-8 here is for historical reasons. And I think It will last a really long time except all server using utf-32 to send http header
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16:44 jrockway utf-8 is a good idea
16:44 Juerd UTF-32 is generally a bad idea
16:44 jrockway it's efficient for most stuff
16:44 gaal historical reasons are sometimes very good ones
16:44 jrockway and everythign understands it
16:45 jrockway it's just inefficient for things like "strlen <utf8-text>"
16:45 Juerd UTF-32 is senseless for normal text. Its use is limited to academic context, I think.
16:45 Juerd jrockway: With proper caching, that's not as big a problem as you'd think.
16:45 TimToady and at the grapheme level you *still* have a variable-width encoding.
16:46 gaal Juerd: uh, is "normal text" "English" under that definition?
16:46 Juerd gaal: Any current language
16:46 gaal er, s/definition/claim/
16:46 moritz Juerd: why? it's really easy to work with, and with non-european charsets 2^26 chars are sometimes not enough
16:46 Juerd gaal: Including Chinese(!)
16:46 moritz s/26/16/
16:46 jrockway a lot of stuff is still ASCII
16:46 jrockway optimizing for ASCII isn't a bad idea
16:46 Juerd I suggest that you read Wikipedia's articles about UTF-16 and UTF-32 respectively.
16:46 moritz jrockway: as non-english speaker I can't agree
16:47 jrockway moritz: well, what charset is this conversation using?
16:47 Juerd moritz: It doesn't help to optimize for ASCII if that doesn't hurt non-ASCII.
16:47 moritz Juerd: ok, I'll do it
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16:47 jrockway freenode would require 4x bandwidth if it switched to utf-32
16:47 moritz jrockway: I don't know what you are using ;-)
16:47 jrockway that would suck, because 99% of the conversations are ascii
16:47 moritz jrockway: no, because of compression
16:47 jrockway and the rest are iso-2022-jp :)
16:48 moritz ä
16:48 jrockway maybe
16:48 jrockway extra CPU time
16:48 Juerd jrockway: If IRC was updated to use UTF-anything, it could also be updated to use gzip
16:48 jrockway with utf-8/ascii it can just blindly pass the bits around
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16:48 jrockway yeah
16:48 Juerd So the bandwidth argument, for IRC, is a very silly one :)
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16:48 jrockway i'm just saying that optimizing for ASCII isn't a bad idea
16:48 Juerd The problem with IRC is that it sends almost no metadata :)
16:49 jrockway it might not be a good idea either
16:49 Juerd For IRC to support ASCII-incompatible encodings, you'd have to switch at some point
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16:50 moritz Juerd: but irc _does_ support encodings differnt from ascii, doesn't it?
16:50 avar you could just send it along with MAXNICKLEN and such
16:51 wolverian moritz, well, if "completely ignoring" can be defined as "supporting" :)
16:51 avar irc is a line-based protocol where you send arbitary octets over
16:51 Juerd moritz: Not for the protocol itself.
16:51 Juerd The IRC protocol is strictly ASCII.
16:51 moritz Juerd: ok, but for content
16:51 avar no it's not
16:52 Juerd moritz: Well, as long as it doesn't contain ASCII's control characters. That excludes UTF-16 and -32.
16:52 avar the only protocol irc knows about is that swedish variant of whatever the hell
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16:52 Juerd avar: That's ASCII, where {}[] are mapped to other letters :)
16:52 Juerd avar: [] are uppercase {}
16:52 Juerd (as in ascii ;))
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16:56 avar does that also apply for ~ and ^ and | and \ in ascii?
16:56 avar """
16:56 avar   Because of IRC's Scandinavian origin, the characters {}|^ are
16:56 avar   considered to be the lower case equivalents of the characters []\~,
16:56 avar   respectively. This is a critical issue when determining the
16:56 avar   equivalence of two nicknames or channel names.
16:56 avar """
16:57 avar -rfc 2812
16:57 Juerd Oh, \~ too :)
16:57 Juerd Heh
16:57 Juerd What's that horrible """ thing? :)
16:57 avar PYTHON
16:57 Juerd If I had +o, I'd kick you ;)
16:57 lichtkind TimToady: thanks can i get the name of the little town near LA ?
16:57 wolverian scandinavian?! goddamn swedes hijacking everything we do.
16:58 wolverian (</joke>)
16:58 * Juerd wonders why jokes so often contain profanity
16:58 moritz heja norge!
16:58 jerrylee finally pugs is compiled
16:58 TimToady lichtkind: I'd rather not.
16:58 moritz jerrylee++
16:58 lichtkind TimToady: ok
16:58 jerrylee hi moritz
16:59 moritz hie jerrylee ;-)
16:59 jerrylee why is it written in Haskell?
17:00 moritz one possible answer could be "because audrey wanted to learn haskell"
17:00 jrockway i think the offical reason is "the Reader monad"
17:00 jrockway :)
17:00 jerrylee is it going to be perl6 in future?
17:00 moritz another could be "because it's good for fast buttom-up dev"
17:00 jerrylee as i remember perl6 will be written in perl6?
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17:00 jrockway yes
17:00 jrockway pugs is for prototyping
17:00 moritz jerrylee: hopefully, yes ;-)
17:00 jerrylee moritz: i see
17:00 jrockway and general fun!
17:01 jerrylee :D in some way it's fun
17:02 jerrylee how do you guys test it?
17:03 moritz jerrylee: with "make smoke"
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17:04 jrockway FWIW, perl6 is anything that passes the perl6 test suite
17:04 lichtkind TimToady: but i still wonder why wikipedia in most languages sees you born in duncan british columbie :)
17:04 jrockway so... perl6-on-perl6 might be the official version... but nothing's stopping you from having your own implementation
17:05 jerrylee i am afraid i don't know how to help debug, on haskell o.O
17:05 * moritz already considered writing a dummy language that just prints "ok" for every test to have the first working perl6 implementation - as an aprils fools choke or something ;-)
17:06 * jerrylee really agree that
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17:15 jerrylee !seen
17:15 devbot6 jerrylee: Error: "seen" is not a valid command.
17:16 jerrylee !
17:16 * jerrylee is sleepy
17:17 * jerrylee 's pc is still making test on pugs
17:17 jerrylee time for be
17:17 jerrylee time for bed
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17:18 jerrylee bye guys
17:18 moritz 'night
17:18 * jerrylee is worrying make test will take a very long time
17:18 jerrylee bye moritz
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17:50 wolverian locales generated
17:50 Juerd Thanks
17:50 wolverian you're welcome. feel free to delegate menial tasks
17:51 wolverian (those that aren't handled by debian automatically :)
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18:44 fglock I've got objects working in p6-in-parrot (for some value of "objects")
18:45 fglock there is some hope for mp6
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18:52 svnbot6 r15886 | fglock++ | mp6 - added an example of p6parrot emulation of "for-loops" and "objects"  
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19:55 moritz is there a good reason why perl6.vim hilights kv in a different color than keys?
20:03 gaal probably not.
20:04 DarkWolf84 maybe it's just a bug
20:05 moritz DarkWolf84: "bug" is a rather harsh word for that ;-)
20:05 moritz kv is listed as "p6KeyPropoerty", whereas keys is a "p6KeyFunc"
20:05 DarkWolf84 well then mistake is the word
20:06 gaal "oversight"
20:06 gaal commits welcome
20:14 fglock would someone review a p6 snippet? http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6​-MiniPerl6/temp/p6parrot-class.pl
20:14 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/26ml3u
20:15 fglock I'm trying to emulate some missing features in p6-parrot
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20:26 gaal what's the arg for the closure for?
20:26 gaal also I think you need {...}(), not ()()
20:26 fglock gaal: () seems to be a syntax error
20:27 gaal .oO( ))<>(( forever )
20:27 gaal ?eval {"moose"}.()
20:27 evalbot_r15877 is now known as evalbot_r15886
20:27 evalbot_r15886 "moose"
20:27 fglock also, it doesn't work without 'my $var'
20:27 gaal ?eval {"moose"}()
20:27 evalbot_r15886 "moose"
20:27 fglock no, that's perl6-in-parrot :)
20:28 fglock I'm working around
20:29 fglock parrot-0.4.10 from cpan
20:29 gaal so it's ( {} ).() and the () is just for grouping? not sure if that should work...?
20:29 fglock yes, it works here
20:33 fglock hmm - I'll try it in pugs
20:34 fglock no, it only works on parrot - strange
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20:42 geoffb Anyone happen to know the status of the Chief Rabbit?
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21:38 Patterner Never trust a rabbit.
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21:45 TimToady I think you meant: Never twust a wabbit.
21:49 Limbic_Region TimToady - are you still unable to compile pugs?
21:54 Patterner s/rabbit/bunny/
21:55 Patterner (see http://imdb.com/title/tt0443536/quotes :)
21:55 lambdabot Title: Hoodwinked! (2005) - Memorable quotes
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23:41 TimToady Limbic_Region: I wasn't having trouble, feather was.
23:41 TimToady ?eval 42
23:42 evalbot_r15886 42
23:42 TimToady but looks like it succeeded

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