Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady by the "xor with 64" rule
00:00 * offby1 nods solemnly
00:00 TimToady ?eval "\cG"
00:00 evalbot_r15894 "\x[7]"
00:00 offby1 odd.
00:01 forsaken joined perl6
00:01 offby1 why not just plain 7?
00:01 TimToady left out the ord
00:01 TimToady ?eval ord "\cG"
00:01 evalbot_r15894 7
00:02 offby1 is someone making secret fiddlings to evalbot that I can't see?
00:02 offby1 ah
00:02 offby1 nuts, I liked my conspiracy theory better
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00:16 specbot6 r14370 | larry++ | Clarify the single-character backslash escapes, including \c control forms.
00:16 specbot6 r14370 | larry++ | Note that \c[ is not legal to mean \c[ESCAPE]
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00:19 svnbot6 r15895 | lwall++ | Fixed \c parsing to allow either named or control characters.
00:22 specbot6 r14371 | larry++ | typo
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07:13 riffraff hi
07:13 Tene Hi!
07:14 tokuhirom hi!
07:14 Tene Welcome to #perl6!
07:17 masak yes, hi and welcome
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09:19 svnbot6 r15896 | dvergin++ | s/$*ARGS/@*ARGS/
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09:27 svnbot6 r15897 | diakopter++ | fixing Makefile.PL and Build.PL to report broken
09:27 svnbot6 r15897 | diakopter++ | dependency on YAML::Syck (<= 0.7.0).  Perl6-Perldoc
09:27 svnbot6 r15897 | diakopter++ | should now make test; make install; without issues,
09:27 svnbot6 r15897 | diakopter++ | assuming you can get a correct version of YAML::Syck
09:27 svnbot6 r15897 | diakopter++ | installed.
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09:34 pasteling "evalbot_r15896" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (47 lines, 1.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24198
09:34 pasteling "evalbot_r15896" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (47 lines, 1.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24199
09:36 svnbot6 r15898 | diakopter++ | drat
09:39 moritz how can I get an older version of a module from cpan?
09:40 moritz ok, found it ;-)
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09:42 diakopter moritz: here's a trick:  cpan A/AU/AUDREYT/YAML-Syck-0.70.tar.gz
09:42 moritz diakopter++ # All tests successful, 2 tests skipped.
09:43 diakopter which YAML::Syck do you have
09:43 moritz 0.70
09:43 diakopter oh, ok.
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09:51 svnbot6 r15899 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : large refactor of PhysType.pm, with the side effect that it now compiles with no code commented out
09:53 pasteling "evalbot_r15898" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (317 lines, 17.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24200
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10:15 svnbot6 r15900 | fglock++ | mp6-p6parrot - simple subroutines; added example files
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10:19 svnbot6 r15901 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : added explicit return-statements to all routines lacking them
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10:25 moritz dduncan: "make test" in ext/QDRDBMS/ fails, because the it tries to execute the wrong test files
10:26 moritz dduncan: no, wait... ext/QDRDBMS/blib/script/pugs: No such file or directory
10:26 diakopter here's the output of perldoc2xhtml S26.pod6 if anyone's interested.  Note the lack of <head><body>, etc.  https://svnweb.veradox.com/css/S26.html
10:28 dduncan moritz, is that so ... it seems to work for me ... looking ...
10:28 moritz dduncan: perhaps you forgot to commit a script?
10:29 dduncan the latest smoke I saw on smokserv also showed passing tests
10:29 dduncan looking ...
10:30 dduncan QDRDBMS is technically very simple, it is just Perl 6 modules and Perl 6 test files ... no special scripts required
10:31 dduncan that said, if Pugs itself changed recently, I may not have built the last few patches in ... will try remake
10:33 moritz dduncan: it seems more like an error with the test: make target...
10:33 diakopter moritz: it might be that this build of QDRDBMS failed b/c the previous build of pugs failed...?
10:34 dduncan what I usually do for testing is cding into ext/QDRDBMS and saying 'make test', and the tests all pass
10:34 moritz dduncan: http://paste.debian.net/25506
10:34 dduncan due to how Pugs is setup, that just works, and is like a subset of the normal make test
10:34 moritz diakopter: no, the prev. pugs build succeeded
10:34 dduncan anyway, I just did a full Pugs remake
10:34 dduncan that is, pull, 'make'
10:35 dduncan the full make, and the test in just my dir succeeded
10:36 dduncan perhaps your build is messed up ... does this happen for any other ext/ ?
10:36 dduncan that said, I have a theory, looking ...
10:38 dduncan nope, not that ... I don't see how I'm doing anything differently from other ext/ that work
10:39 moritz dduncan: most other tests in ext/ succeed for me, and they don't complain about missing scripts
10:39 dduncan do any other ext/ give the same error?
10:40 dduncan is there someone else here, diakopter perhaps, can you please try running 'make test' on QDRDBMS yourself and check the results?
10:40 dduncan as per moritz nopaste
10:40 dduncan just cd into ext/QDRDBMS/ and then say 'make test', assuming you have a recent full Pugs 'make' that worked
10:41 dduncan "full" meaning the result of running "make" when you are in the root Pugs dir
10:42 dduncan moritz, you shouldn't have any blib dirs under ext/ dirs anyway
10:43 dduncan the only blib/ should be under the Pugs root dir, and that is where all ext/ modules are pulled during Pugs 'make'
10:43 dduncan your error seems to be looking for a dir that shouldn't be there
10:44 moritz dduncan: ok, I deleted blib/, made "make" in the pugs root, and now the tests work
10:44 moritz sorry for the fuzz
10:44 dduncan no problem, glad you got it working for you
10:45 dduncan oh and fyi, any day now I will be adding more *.pm files to QDRDBMS, and so I believe the main Pugs Makefile.PL would have to be subsequently rerun in order for them to be moved to the /blib so the tests work after that
10:45 avar 10:45:23  * CPAN upload: Perl6-Perldoc-v0.0.3 by DCONWAY
10:45 dduncan such is, I believe, how the Pugs make system works
10:47 * dduncan signing off for the 3:47am local time
10:54 diakopter avar: thanks.  *wow* he got it to work with the latest YAML::Syck...
10:56 avar http://pause.perl.org/incoming/Perl6-Perldoc-v0.0.3.tar.gz
10:57 diakopter ... and synced.
10:58 svnbot6 r15902 | diakopter++ | syncing Perl6-Perldoc-v0.0.3 from CPAN - it's now "stock"
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11:05 diakopter correction: it doesn't depend on YAML::Syck anymore.
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14:23 moritz do ^^ and $$ have a meaning in p5 regex?
14:24 rgs no
14:25 moritz but ^^ matches an empty string, right?
14:25 rgs certainly
14:25 moritz so there's no way of introducing ^^ and $$ to p5 regex without breaking anything :(
14:25 rgs esp. $$
14:26 rgs since that interpolates to the pid
14:26 moritz right
14:26 avar you could write a re::engine::
14:26 PerlJam I wouldn't worry too much about such breakage.
14:26 rgs avar: hahaha
14:26 moritz avar: no, I can't ;-)
14:26 PerlJam How often is a program matchign it's own PID?
14:27 avar You still have to worry about it because your engine will get some integer and not "$$"
14:27 rgs it can look it up in `ps` for example
14:27 PerlJam And how often does someone actually use ^^ in a RE?  (never)
14:27 avar so you need /^^ \$$/
14:27 moritz PerlJam: that's convenient if you filter the output of ps aux or something ;-)
14:27 PerlJam Sure, but what I'm saying is that he benefits outweight the breakage.
14:27 PerlJam s/weight/weigh/
14:28 avar You don't have to break anything at all to add new regex engines in 5.10
14:28 PerlJam oh, that's right.
14:28 PerlJam use feature '^^';
14:28 PerlJam or whatever
14:28 avar no, use re::engine::PCR # or something
14:29 PerlJam Either way.  I would worry even less about the breakage  ;-)
14:29 avar    if ("abc" =~ /((.).)./) {
14:29 avar        say ${^MATCH};           # "abc"
14:29 avar        say ${^MATCH}->from;     # 0
14:29 avar        say ${^MATCH}->to;       # 3
14:29 moritz so how many re engines will be distributed with 5.10?
14:29 rgs one
14:29 avar two:)
14:29 rgs well, with the debug one, two
14:29 avar >:)
14:30 moritz but there are other available as CPAN modules?
14:30 avar yep, I've done re::engine::POSIX and Plan9, and Plugin
14:30 avar all of them are broken now though, the interface in blead is a bit unstable atm:)
14:30 moritz sounds cool
14:30 avar PCRE too
14:30 avar but that's not mine
14:30 PerlJam that's just sick
14:31 PerlJam (PCRE as perl's re engine)
14:31 moritz where can I find a list of new features in 5.9/10?
14:31 PerlJam moritz: perldelta should have them.
14:32 PerlJam (5.9.x's perldelta that is
14:32 PerlJam )
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14:32 rgs perl59*delta.pod in the perl 5 sources
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14:34 moritz ok, thanks
14:34 * moritz rsyncs perl-current ;-)
14:37 jerrylee moritz: any good doc to learn pugs systematically?
14:38 jerrylee and, what is the most required part for community contribution?
14:42 kolibrie jerrylee: linking tests to the synopsis is a good way to both learn Perl 6 and help the community
14:42 moritz jerrylee: what do you mean by "learn pugs systematically?" pugs internals?
14:43 PerlJam the only way to learn about pugs' guts is to start digging around in them  I think.
14:43 jerrylee moritz: programming on pugs ;)
14:43 jerrylee I might put focus on further perl6 modules
14:44 moritz jerrylee: first read docs/Perl6/Perl5/Differences.pod
14:44 PerlJam jerrylee: to learn how to use pugs is to learn how to use perl6 (mostly)
14:44 moritz jerrylee: then the specs
14:44 moritz and hope that pugs implements what you want to use ;-)
14:45 jerrylee :) i guess it is becoming what i want to use
14:46 jerrylee i wish maybe on perl6 we have something like ruby on rails ..
14:46 moritz jerrylee: we will have catalyst on perl6
14:47 jerrylee catalyst?
14:47 svnbot6 r15903 | dvergin++ | More clarification on ARGS
14:47 moritz I read somewhere that their next major release will be written in p6 - let's keep our fingers crossed ;-)
14:47 * jerrylee is googling catalyst
14:47 moritz jerrylee: http://catalyst.perl.org/
14:47 lambdabot Title: Catalyst - Web Framework
14:47 moritz an MVC-Framework like RoR
14:49 avar I wouldn't call it "like RoR"
14:49 jerrylee avar: is it quite diff?
14:49 avar yes, it doesn't suck
14:50 jerrylee we are developing on cakephp, mvc framework, and it's good for web app
14:50 moritz avar: no insult intended ;)
14:52 jerrylee moritz: catalyst looks interesting
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14:56 moritz jerrylee: it _is_ ;-)
15:12 PerlJam Hopefully perl6 will get "killer apps" like RoR/Catalyst soon after its release.
15:12 PerlJam (or maybe even before :)
15:12 moritz before, yes ;-)
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15:19 PerlJam I went to a talk at SXSW by ppk (see http://www.quirksmode.org/) where he claimed that javascript will eventually disappear in the same way that asm has disappeared.  No one will write in it.  RoR validates his theory in some way because it's all about writing ruby code to implement functionality.
15:19 lambdabot Title: QuirksMode - for all your browser quirks
15:19 jerrylee that will be excellent
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15:19 PerlJam I think Perl 6 validates that idea as well in that it subsumes much of the functionality that has historically been relegated elsewhere.
15:19 jerrylee because perl6 + parrot + catalyst is too good to be true!!
15:20 moritz PerlJam: I think that's a bad comparison. JS is a high level language, and there are cases where people don't have server side scripting support, so they'll fallback to JS for some tasks
15:21 PerlJam I mean perl6 will make javascript fade into the background and SQL and other things just like perl5 made grotty shell scripts fade into the background (once we grew a bunch of perl5 experts)
15:21 moritz ok, "fade into background" is a term I can live with ;-)
15:22 PerlJam good :)
15:22 moritz and I won't shed a tear - js is generally hard to write and to debug IMHO
15:23 jerrylee so what's perl6 progress now? when will be pugs become perl6?
15:23 PerlJam jerrylee: it won't probably.
15:24 PerlJam jerrylee: pugs may become the bootstrap environment to write perl6 in perl6 (maybe)
15:25 jerrylee PerlJam: when is it going to happen?
15:25 jerrylee anything we can help?
15:26 PerlJam I am absolutely the wrong person to answer that question.  :-)
15:26 moritz jerrylee: there's plenty of things you can help with - writing test cases, docs, raising funds, hacking pugs' internals...
15:26 moritz jerrylee: helping the parrot folks...
15:26 PerlJam jerrylee: listen to moritz
15:27 kolibrie jerrylee: pick something you like and have fun!
15:27 moritz jerrylee: you could help fglock with his mp6/kp6 efforts (perl6 compiler written in a subset of perl6)
15:27 jerrylee moritz: hacking, ok :)
15:27 jerrylee ok :)
15:28 moritz jerrylee: under src/perl6/ there are beginnings of perl6 implementation in perl6, currently most prominent is a grammar for perl6
15:28 jerrylee how can i find fglock
15:28 PerlJam jerrylee: perl6 is probably in chrysalis stage right now.  Its butteryfly is eminent.  (Hopefully it lives a lot longer than a real butterfly ;-)
15:29 moritz @seen fglock
15:29 lambdabot I saw fglock leaving #perl6 17h 57m 28s ago, and .
15:29 moritz jerrylee: usually he hangs around here
15:29 moritz jerrylee: take a look into v6/ in the pugs repository, that should be a start
15:29 jerrylee moritz: thanks
15:30 moritz np
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15:32 jerrylee PerlJam: Perl6Jam? :P
15:32 jerrylee Perl6 Jammed?
15:38 jerrylee so on parrot python can link to basic directly?
15:38 [particle] yes, once it's implemented
15:39 jerrylee [particle]: as i know python and basic can run on parrot already?
15:39 [particle] basic is broken
15:39 jerrylee i see
15:40 [particle] python is partially implemented, like all high-level languages
15:40 [particle] we have the ability to export globals from one namespace to another
15:41 [particle] but nobody has written something that loads one languages' globals into another's
15:42 jerrylee how about pugs? i saw it runs on parrot
15:42 jerrylee but it runs as a standalone also?
15:42 moritz jerrylee: no, it doesn not _run_ on parrot
15:43 moritz jerrylee: it's a stand-alone executable, that embeds perl5 (and ghc?)
15:43 moritz jerrylee: it can emit parrot code, or at least it should be able to do that
15:43 jerrylee moritz: i got it
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16:09 jerrylee bye guys, got to go to the bed
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16:23 lichtkind bye
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16:53 svnbot6 r15904 | moritz++ | Perl6::Perl5::Differences: want.List -> want.list
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17:03 specbot6 r14372 | larry++ | Clarification of simplified return values of filetests for brian.d.foy++.
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17:22 moritz TimToady: what do you think about 'for =@a { ... }' for reading all files stored in @a?
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17:22 moritz TimToady: then =@*ARGV would work without additional magic
17:23 avar doesn't = operate on handles now?
17:23 geoffb avar: I believe it works on iterators, which a filehandle can pretend to be
17:23 moritz the current pugs implementation works on filenames as well
17:24 moritz so for =</etc/passwd> { ... } works
17:24 moritz and I think this is quite a cool feature ;-)
17:24 moritz though I don't know if it's specced
17:24 geoffb moritz: so perhaps you want for =<<@a>> ?
17:25 moritz geoffb: if that does what I want, yes ;-)
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18:07 * OwlEye slaps lichtkind with a Python Beginner Guide
18:08 lichtkind OwlEye: i have my own :)
18:08 OwlEye lol
18:09 OwlEye blasphemy!
18:09 moritz "no trial, no jury, straight execution" -- Vincent in "Pulp Fiction"
18:09 OwlEye hahaha
18:10 lichtkind OwlEye:  why that violence
18:10 OwlEye lichtkind, the violence comes from moritz, i only laugh :P
18:10 moritz OwlEye: you started slapping ;-)
18:11 OwlEye the slap was a sign of love!
18:11 lichtkind das meinte ich
18:11 OwlEye could have used a MSCE Study Guide :P
18:11 lichtkind msce?
18:12 OwlEye MCSE, sorry
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18:14 moritz @google MCSE
18:14 lambdabot http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/mcse/
18:14 lambdabot Title: Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
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18:32 lichtkind OwlEye:  do you want to throw bad vibes into my perly brain?
18:33 OwlEye lichtkind, its a stability test. if you start reading the MCSE Guide you failed :P
18:33 lichtkind OwlEye: as an information junky i read anything
18:33 lichtkind i even own a python pocket reference
18:33 OwlEye even poison??
18:34 lichtkind it was a present by confused freiend
18:34 lichtkind friend
18:34 lichtkind yeah even poison from a python
18:35 lichtkind as a star child i cannot die like a time lord
18:35 moritz just like a friend of mine, vim user, who got an "emacs reference" mug from his sister...
18:35 OwlEye the Python books are okay. its Open Source. but MCSE = poison
18:35 moritz she remembered he was enthusiastic "about a unix text editor" ;-)
18:36 OwlEye when you have to migrate servers into a windows network and work with certified Microsoft engineers you will think about my words
18:36 OwlEye moritz, lol
18:36 OwlEye moritz, poor her. she had positive intentions for sure :)
18:37 moritz OwlEye: sure she had. But she survived (it was an older sister ;-)
18:37 lichtkind i yesterday finished http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damian_Conway
18:38 lichtkind now im on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSCON
18:38 OwlEye lol
18:38 OwlEye lichtkind, i cant even read your articles as fast as you write new ones!
18:40 lichtkind the best of all damian liked and thanked me :) :)
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18:48 lichtkind good nichght
18:52 moritz schlaf gut ;-)
18:55 lumi Does anyone know the Common Lisp FORMAT function? Maybe there's some idea to be sto^Wresearched there
18:58 kolibrie I do not know it, but it has been mentioned before, so now I am intrigued, but not enough to look at it yet
18:59 lumi The printf in p6l reminded me; it's basically a DSL for printing deep data structures
19:00 moritz sounds like a good task for a core module ;-)
19:00 lumi I think so, printf is so.. C
19:01 lumi "Complex FORMAT control strings sometimes bear a suspicious resemblance to line noise"
19:07 [particle] perl 6 has a replacement for perl 5 formats
19:08 lumi [particle]: What's that? Also, this isn't like Perl 5 formats
19:09 lumi It's more like a smarter printf
19:10 [particle] it's called 'form'
19:10 [particle] here's a p5 impl: http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Perl6-Form-0.04/Form.pm
19:10 lambdabot Title: Perl6::Form - Implements the Perl 6 'form' built-in - search.cpan.org
19:10 [particle] see A/E07 (no synopsis because it's no longer core)
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19:51 obra folks: we've got these lovely perl6 microgrants to give out
19:51 obra More pugs hackers need to apply
20:01 geoffb obra: I wish I had the time ....
20:01 * geoffb gets the feeling he's not alone
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20:06 obra $500. 1 month of hackery.
20:06 obra these don't need to be big projects
20:07 Tene obra: perhaps gather some suggestions of projects people would like to see done.
20:10 zamolxes obra: writing a working useful thing in perl6 ?
20:10 zamolxes i wanted to do this for fun anyway :)
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20:11 obra zamolxes: quite possibly, especially if you're writing good tests and docs and posting it publicly ;)
20:12 zamolxes i'll probably delegate the stuff to my team and buy a shitload of beer (if any grant is .. granted)
20:12 zamolxes i always wanted to show them perl6
20:12 obra :)
20:17 Tene obra: I have time available, I just don't have any interesting ideas.
20:18 obra Tene: what have you been doing with pugs so far?
20:18 obra Do you hack haskell?
20:18 moritz maybe a foreign code interface?
20:18 moritz or at least some preparations for that
20:18 Tene Never worked with haskell.
20:19 obra moritz: you mean like the current p5 stuff?
20:19 moritz obra: yes ;-)
20:19 Tene I've played around with some web development stuff, mostly.
20:19 beppu joined perl6
20:20 moritz Tene: Juerd (iirc) had some good ideas about a replacement for CGI in perl6...
20:20 diakopter obra: how many mini-grants/month have become available, if I may ask?
20:20 moritz Tene: if you want to code in perl6 that might be a good idea
20:20 obra we've got about 8 more to go right now
20:21 Tene moritz: I remember seeing that...
20:22 Tene That could be fun to work on.
20:22 moritz I think that's a good idea because perl has traditionally strong on webservers...
20:23 moritz so it would be good to have a working, good module as early as possible
20:23 Tene I don't have any idea how to quantify that into a month or so of work with clearly-defined success, though.
20:25 moritz Tene: I'd suggest you contact Juerd or darren duncan (he commited the placeholder ext/Web) and ask for ideas
20:25 obra possibly a minimal subset of jifty, catalyst or rails ported to p6.
20:31 diakopter obra - a port of qpsmtpd or another high-performance network server to p6?
20:32 diakopter perlbal perhaps
20:32 * Tene will investigate ideas this weekend.
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20:48 obra diakopter: submit ;)
20:52 diakopter regarding those two (both use Danga::Socket) though, a certain someone tells me pugs won't be able to do the event loop system calls until this ticket is resolved: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/635  I guess I should wonder if such libevent stuff is in parrot yet.  I'll look it up.
20:52 lambdabot Title: #635 (Replace use of select() in the I/O manager with epoll/kqueue/etc.) - GHC - ...
20:57 spinclad obra: it's about time I came back to live hacking again... i'll talk with fglock and pmichaud about mp6/kp6/p6parrot, see how close they are to parsing Larry's grammar, firm something up for you
20:58 spinclad apply at TPF?
20:59 rissy joined perl6
20:59 obra http://news.perl-foundation.org/2007/03/best_practical_sponsors_perl_6.html
20:59 lambdabot Title: Best Practical sponsors Perl 6 Microgrants (The Perl Foundation), http://tinyurl.com/2hcjld
21:04 Limbic_Region joined perl6
21:07 spinclad thanks, i'll work one up
21:10 buetow joined perl6
21:15 the_dormant joined perl6
21:21 moritz I have two ideas about documentation projects...
21:22 moritz 1) the specs are written as a diff to perl5, it would be nice to have a non-diff version (at least of some of the specs)
21:22 bonesss joined perl6
21:22 moritz especially since perl5 is not very formally specced
21:23 cognominal joined perl6
21:23 moritz 2) beginner's tutorial. I don't think the core language will change so much, so you could already start with that
21:28 diakopter moritz: http://www.learningperl6.com/llama6_proposal.pod   brian d foy has recently posted some documentation-driven questions on a list somewhere
21:28 brian_d_f I'm working on the file test operator chapter right now. It's in the SVN but not the webiste yet
21:30 moritz so is intended to be both a book and the perldoc pages?
21:30 brian_d_f I'm just writing Learning Perl 6
21:31 brian_d_f I might be able to help with some of the perldoc stuff, but it's not my main goal righ tnow
21:31 diakopter brian_d_f: aww, you're writing in pod5...
21:31 brian_d_f I'd really like to see a single, definitive source. I think that's supposed to be the synopses
21:32 brian_d_f heh, because I have a lot of translators for pod5 already
21:32 brian_d_f and ORA has translators that go from pod5 to their internal system
21:33 brian_d_f I'm trying to pretend that pod6 isn't wiki-like so I don't slit my wrists
21:33 Limbic_Region brian_d_f - the synopses, as you know, are still being written.  Additionally, some of the stuff pitched over the fence to parrot land are still being worked out
21:34 brian_d_f yep, they're still being written :)
21:34 Limbic_Region brian_d_f - looking in docs/perl6 is a great place to see synopses as works in progress
21:34 buu brian_d_f: We're actually close enough to start working on learning perl6?
21:34 diakopter somebody thinks so, apparently
21:34 Limbic_Region brian_d_f - I am not sure if TimToady and @larry are re-thinking this pitch stuff over the wall to parrot but I think they should
21:34 brian_d_f um, I don't know if we're close enough
21:34 brian_d_f but I am working on it
21:34 Limbic_Region since it is obvious that multiple implementations will exist even if the one targeting parrot is "official"
21:35 diakopter somebody meaning the sponsor(s)/publisher
21:35 brian_d_f a learning book only covers the 80% useful stuff
21:35 Limbic_Region actually, Randal said it much more candidly
21:35 brian_d_f and most of that stuff is set: variables, files, rules
21:35 moritz what about OO?
21:36 Limbic_Region brian_d_f - the biggest thing that I think is going to be hard to write in Learning Perl 6 isn't about the commands and syntax, but more about the philosophy
21:36 brian_d_f there will be some OO stuff, but only user level stuff, not class creation and that other fun stuff
21:36 brian_d_f that's Intermediate Perl ^
21:36 * Limbic_Region disagrees on that point
21:36 brian_d_f yep, philosophy is hard
21:36 Limbic_Region only because the philosophy of perl 6 has changed
21:37 Limbic_Region in p5, oo was definately an intermediate book item
21:37 Limbic_Region not so in p6 (IMO)
21:37 Limbic_Region OO is baked in from the get go
21:37 Limbic_Region and while a great deal of effort is being made to allow you to ignore it
21:37 moritz syntax and semantic is (mostly) well specced, but philosophy isn't ;-)
21:37 Limbic_Region just about everything can be treated like an object
21:37 brian_d_f OO as a topic is not the same as making classes
21:37 brian_d_f and that sort of stuff
21:37 Limbic_Region *shrug*, I guess
21:37 moritz so you have to think for yourself and can't just look it up
21:38 brian_d_f i'll see what happens. personally i like the OO stuff
21:38 Limbic_Region that's why I said the philosophy of perl 6 is going to be the hardest part to get right in the learning perl 6 book (which is where it is needed)
21:38 brian_d_f it's what we can teach in 350 pages and have people learn in 4 days that matters for Llama 6 though
21:38 Limbic_Region there was a lot of years and experience to go on before the first learning perl book
21:39 brian_d_f yeah, it's a challenge, but I'm not scared of that
21:39 * Limbic_Region wasn't trying to scare you
21:39 Limbic_Region ;-)
21:40 brian_d_f and the OO stuff at this level isn't new, just new to Perl
21:41 brian_d_f the book will be online as I write it, so there will be plenty of time for people to make comments :)
21:41 brian_d_f I keep saying I when I mean we (Randal and I)
21:41 Limbic_Region I wouldn't worry about that too much
21:42 Limbic_Region It isn't like Randal will leave anyone wondering about his contributions
21:42 Limbic_Region ;-)
21:42 Limbic_Region so out of curiosity, is MMD in or out?
21:43 brian_d_f MMD in Llama 6? No idea yet.
21:43 Limbic_Region actually, that should be MMD/MFD I think
21:43 Limbic_Region since perl 6 will specifically distinguish between methods and subroutines
21:43 brian_d_f I'm workign from the back of the book to see what needs to be in the front
21:44 brian_d_f haven't thought about that yet. focus focus focus :)
21:44 dduncan joined perl6
21:44 Limbic_Region well, I will leave you be then
21:44 brian_d_f we probably won't have method creation in Llama 6 though
21:44 Limbic_Region it has been something I have been thinking about for about 2 years myself
21:45 brian_d_f i would like to see other beginning Perl 6 books though, written from other perspectivesw
21:45 brian_d_f one book isn't going to work for everyone
21:45 Limbic_Region well, the book I am thinking about isn't about perl specifically, nor perl 6
21:46 Limbic_Region but all actual code is in p5 or p6 (and possibly other languages as comparisons)
21:47 * Limbic_Region was supposed to work on said book while his family was in the Philippines but with a little over a week to go it doesn't look like it is going to happen
21:47 Limbic_Region all research, lists of ideas to cover, etc but only a chapter or two actually written
21:48 moritz Limbic_Region: so you are thinking about a "programming for beginners" book that happens to use perl6?
21:48 Limbic_Region no, not at all
21:48 Limbic_Region mortiz - it isn't even a beginners book at all
21:48 brian_d_f that would be a good book, but also a book on "Perl 6 for Not Beginners"
21:50 moritz Limbic_Region: so what's the (imaginary) audience?
21:51 Limbic_Region moritz - primarily self-taught programmers, sys admins suddenly being asked to maintain scripts they didn't right, professional developers that don't have the benefit of a CS degree
21:51 moritz Limbic_Region: I'll read it! ;-)
21:51 Limbic_Region s/right/write/
21:52 Limbic_Region moritz - well, I pitched the idea to O'Reilly over a year ago and we were just about to negotiate a contract when I backed out
21:52 moritz Limbic_Region: why?
21:52 Limbic_Region moritz - life intervened (my wife was pregnant with our first daughter)
21:52 moritz Limbic_Region: that's a _really_ good reason ;-)
21:52 Limbic_Region I'm not in the business of commiting to things I know I can't do - and family comes first
21:52 demq joined perl6
21:53 Limbic_Region so I have continued to do research, jot down ideas, organize the arrangement of the chapters, etc
21:53 Limbic_Region I talk to Allison and chromatic about it every so often
21:54 Limbic_Region but writing a book (and doing it right) is hard work that takes a lot of time
21:54 Limbic_Region thinking is much easier
21:54 Limbic_Region ;-)
21:57 Limbic_Region speaking of not having the benefit of a CS degree - does anyone have some introductory links to graph theory?
21:58 zamolxes Limbic_Region: the wolf book is nice ;)
21:58 zamolxes http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/maperl/
21:58 lambdabot Title: O'Reilly Media -- Bookstore: Mastering Algorithms with Perl
21:59 Limbic_Region zamolxes - you misunderstand then
21:59 * Limbic_Region owns that book
22:00 zamolxes mee too :) . how introductory?
22:00 zamolxes wikipedia has a lot of stuff, I don't know
22:00 Limbic_Region zamolxes - I'm not interested in code at all, rather the theory.
22:01 Limbic_Region I am trying to turn what I have in my head into something else
22:01 Limbic_Region zamolxes - I need a way to take someone who doesn't have anything to relate to
22:02 Limbic_Region and get them to see a problem in terms of a graph, and how various different graph algorithms can solve the problem they are asking
22:02 zamolxes well most theory starts with the mathematical definition
22:02 Limbic_Region zamolxes - turning a problem not presented as a graph into that situation isn't easy
22:02 Limbic_Region especially for one who never learned it in school
22:03 Limbic_Region IOW - I don't want to tell you how to do it or show you how I do it, I want you to be able to figure out how to do it ;-)
22:03 Limbic_Region the first 2 I can do, the 3rd I am having a hard time with
22:03 Limbic_Region *shrug* - not like I have a deadline or anything
22:05 zamolxes think of tree traversal. you need those every other day
22:05 zamolxes (nested categories etc)
22:06 * Limbic_Region hates artificial examples
22:06 zamolxes think of route optimising (everyone trying to plan deliveries for an online delivery business)
22:06 Limbic_Region so yeah
22:06 Limbic_Region perhaps that's the way to go
22:06 Limbic_Region just pick a few examples and solve it several different ways
22:07 zamolxes well i'm thinking these are real world uses, not artificial
22:07 Limbic_Region no, you misunderstand
22:07 Limbic_Region I was leading in to a compliment
22:07 zamolxes i keep doing that
22:07 Limbic_Region well, I think that's more my fault than yours.
22:07 zamolxes http://www.ecp6.jussieu.fr/pageperso/bondy/books/gtwa/gtwa.html :)
22:07 lambdabot Title: Graph Theory with Applications
22:08 Limbic_Region I agree with your examples as good ones that people can relate to rather than an academic one which no one can apply to their real work
22:08 Limbic_Region zamolxes++
22:08 * Limbic_Region hugs zamolxes
22:11 zamolxes i just got that link from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory . there are some more interesting books/articles/tutorials listed there
22:11 lambdabot Title: Graph theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
22:11 Limbic_Region I had the wikipedia link already but hadn't gone through it yet
22:12 Limbic_Region If I can't explain something well enough so my wife can understand it, it isn't ready yet
22:12 zamolxes i guess i mostly 'tree-related-concepts' for iterating the filesystem
22:12 Limbic_Region not only is my wife not a tech weenie, english is her 3rd language
22:13 zamolxes oh, and states :)
22:14 Limbic_Region state machines, finite automata, oh my
22:14 zamolxes order states/transitions in a e-commerce  thing
22:14 Limbic_Region ?seen audreyt
22:14 lambdabot audreyt is in #haskell and #perl6. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
22:14 Limbic_Region anyone heard from her?
22:14 audreyt yeah, a while ago
22:14 lambdabot audreyt: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:15 Limbic_Region oh, audreyt - is she ok?
22:15 audreyt I heard that she is working on OSDC.tw slides -- Jifty talk due in 4hrs
22:15 audreyt Perl 5.10/P6 talk due next day
22:16 Limbic_Region oh, well then she should continue working on that and ignoring #perl6 then
22:16 audreyt she's mostly okay. immediate family crisis reached temporary (relative) peace
22:16 geoffb I'm glad to hear that's better!
22:17 geoffb We miss her.  Lots.  So very good that things are getting better for her.
22:17 * geoffb wishes her luck with presentations
22:23 Limbic_Region perlbot .ro
22:23 perlbot .ro is Romania
22:24 Limbic_Region zamolxes - is english your first language?
22:25 zamolxes Limbic_Region: no, it isn't
22:25 Limbic_Region well, you seem to have done a great job at mastering it
22:26 Limbic_Region ;-)
22:26 zamolxes too many nights on IRC does that to you
22:28 diakopter can someone test a (patched to include S26 as html) smartlinks.pl on feather for me?
22:28 zamolxes Limbic_Region: oh, i know a great example. email aliases.
22:28 dunstabulos joined perl6
22:29 zamolxes Limbic_Region: imagine wanting to know who can read an email sent to [email@hidden.address] having a huge graph of aliases
22:29 zamolxes it's a very common request
22:30 zamolxes what possible entry points do you have for this particular mailbox?
22:30 zamolxes etc
22:30 zamolxes of course this is 'interesting' and 'non academic' just for a sysadmin :)
22:31 geoffb Email aliases actually give lots of graphy needs: "Did <user1> get an email sent to <foo>?"  "Are there any potential loops in these aliases?"  "What is the maximum number of emails that would receive a message sent to one of these lists?" and so on?
22:31 zamolxes right
22:32 geoffb commute &
22:38 zamolxes oh, and of course, key signing :)
22:38 * diakopter waits for pugs build failure
22:38 svnbot6 r15905 | diakopter++ | I don't even know if this compiles, hold onto your britches...
22:38 svnbot6 r15905 | diakopter++ | Attempting to make smartlinks.pl emit an html-ish version of S26
22:38 svnbot6 r15905 | diakopter++ | eventually to be linked from http://perlcabal.org/syn/
22:38 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
22:41 svnbot6 r15906 | diakopter++ | feather/syn_index.html - supposedly this should be synced, soon...
22:45 pasteling "evalbot_r15904" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (399 lines, 22.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24212
22:45 diakopter there it is
22:46 moritz 404
22:47 diakopter yeah... I'm not sure if smartlinks.pl is run on perlcabal.org or on feather and then S\d\d.html are synced by perlcabal.org from feather.
22:48 diakopter where "I'm not sure" means "I have no idea"
22:51 diakopter hmm, maybe Documentation.pod needs to be updated for smartlinks.pl to run it again.  OR, the pugs build needs to be successful?  I don't know what broke it :(
22:53 diakopter if only I knew what /home/audreyt/pugs/blib/script/p6doc contained
22:54 moritz diakopter: is it not the same as in the pugs repository?
22:55 diakopter oh... :\
22:56 * moritz feels usefully ;-)
22:57 moritz s/ly//
22:58 Juerd diakopter: perlcabal.org *is* feather
22:58 Juerd juerd@lanova:~$ host perlcabal.org
22:58 Juerd perlcabal.org has address 194.145.200.126
22:58 Juerd juerd@lanova:~$ host feather.perl6.nl
22:58 Juerd feather.perl6.nl has address 194.145.200.126
22:59 moritz virtual_hosts++ ;-)
23:03 geoffb joined perl6
23:06 svnbot6 r15907 | diakopter++ | inconsequential edit, hopefully kick off smartlinks.pl
23:10 ortmage_ joined perl6
23:10 Limbic_Region zamolxes - sorry, was AFK.  I have enough examples for now but thanks
23:11 zamolxes :) glad to hear that
23:26 justatheory joined perl6
23:26 dunstabulos why is feather called feather? some sort of parrot reference?
23:29 Limbic_Region dunstabulos - look for the thread called "Perl development server" in perl6.language
23:29 specbot6 r14373 | larry++ | Ranges over enums and such also can use *, suggested by Jonathan Lang++
23:31 Limbic_Region dunstabulos - specifically, http://groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.language/browse_thread/thread/e337e7feb5be6eb6/3b1d204d5049487b?lnk=gst&amp;q=Perl+Development+Server&amp;rnum=1#3b1d204d5049487b
23:31 lambdabot Title: Perl development server - perl.perl6.language | Google Groups, http://tinyurl.com/2dsp97
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23:38 marmic joined perl6
23:38 dunstabulos Limbic_Region: yeah i was just reading the whole thread
23:50 rissy joined perl6
23:51 offby1` is now known as offby1
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