Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:07 svnbot6 r16021 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : split class QDRDBMS::AST::LitDefExpr into type-specific classes
02:02 chlli ?
03:14 svnbot6 r16022 | diakopter++ | new version of Perldoc from Damian.  Someone with root on feather: please update it, if you please.
04:07 veritos Hello, I was thinking about reimplementing Perl6 in Python...sort of like Redsix, but...not.
04:09 Tene Sounds fun!
04:09 Tene You have a commit bit yet?
04:10 veritos Tene: nah :(
04:10 veritos it might help if i knew sv[nk] first
04:10 Tene m'eh, it's easy.
04:10 Tene svn add foo
04:10 Tene hack hack hack
04:10 Tene svn commit
04:10 Tene all done
04:11 veritos hmm...sounds like Fossil (a rev ctrl system i made a couple weeks ago)
04:13 offby1 you're writing your own rcs and you don't know about subversion?
04:13 revdiablo offby1: Market research is for losers
04:14 veritos offby1: i knew _about_ it, but not how to use it. i use Mercurial
04:14 revdiablo Ah, the basic mercurial commands are pretty much the same as svn's
04:14 Tene veritos: well, just give almost anyone here an email address and preferred username and they'll send you a commit bit.
04:16 geoffb bdfl?
04:16 veritos geoffb: benevolent dictator for life. bdfl(perl) = larry. bdfl(linux) = linus. etc.
04:16 veritos in this case, bdfl(pugs) = audrey.
04:17 geoffb veritos: sorry, too tired for my ALUT to return results
04:17 veritos alut? now i get to ask ;)
04:17 geoffb Acronym Look Up Table.  ;-)
04:18 veritos oh
04:18 geoffb and you don't need the bdfl to get your commitbit.
04:18 geoffb Most of us are project admins
04:18 veritos ok...nm.
04:18 veritos ok...nm.
04:20 geoffb Invite on its way ...
04:21 veritos k thanks
04:21 veritos got it
04:21 geoffb It's traditional to add yourself to AUTHORS to test your setup
04:21 geoffb And it gets the nerve-wracking first commit out of the way.  ;-)
04:21 veritos geoffb: let's download the tree in SVN first.
04:24 veritos i'm in.
04:25 dduncan I have an opinion question ... if we're using the proper 3-part versions, is it better to release distros named Foo-1.2.3 or Foo-v1.2.3 ... which format is better ... both kinds seem to be in use.
04:25 geoffb <burns>excellent</burns>
04:25 geoffb I prefer the former, as a human
04:26 dduncan I also see that this is what Pugs itself uses
04:26 dduncan as does Perl 5.x itself
04:27 dduncan though more modules seem to have v
04:27 dduncan I currently intend to not use the v, unless doing so is "the best practice" of the future
04:27 veritos btw is that perl6-in-perl6-rules grammar complete?
04:28 geoffb It's still being tweaked, as there is not yet anything that can parse the whole thing correctly
04:28 geoffb (last I heard)
04:29 veritos as correctly as pugs at least?
04:31 geoffb Well, fglock has been programming up a storm the last week, but I don't know how far he has gotten with the STD grammar.
04:31 svnbot6 r16023 | karhu++ | The usual add-name-to-AUTHORS edit
04:40 svnbot6 r16024 | diakopter++ | inserting random typos... hopefully no one will notice.
05:00 zxagent hello everyone
05:24 agentzh Pugs no longer builds on feather?
05:25 pasteling "agentzh" at 221.131.74.148 pasted "Pugs build failure on feather" (63 lines, 3.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24338
05:25 agentzh i think i need to install the mtl lib for GHC.
05:26 agentzh irclogger--
05:26 rindolf > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
05:26 lambdabot "42"
05:27 rindolf Heh.
05:28 agentzh it has been fixed?
05:34 agentzh same error.
05:51 agentzh finally fixed
05:51 agentzh (root access)++
05:57 rindolf Any news regarding ingy?
06:02 zxagent agentzh: hello master
06:14 agentzh zxagent: hello, boy :)
06:14 agentzh zxagent: nice to see you here.
06:15 agentzh zxagent: want a commit bit?
06:15 agentzh oops, too late
06:16 TimToady maybe you scared him off
06:25 cj TimToady: what are you doing up at this hour!?
06:25 jrockway 11:30 pm?
06:25 cj rindolf: news regarding ingy?  did something happen to him?
06:26 Tene cj: yeah, heard he got hurt pretty bad
06:26 jrockway /msg purl ingy hurt (on MagNET)
06:28 svnbot6 r16025 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : added roles|classes QDRDBMS::AST::(Value|(List|Set|Seq|Bag)Sel)
06:31 agentzh TimToady: *nod*
06:31 cj Tene: this makes me sad
06:32 rindolf jrockway: purl hates me on MagNET.
06:32 rindolf jrockway: so that's not a solution.
06:32 rindolf jrockway: someone configured it to ignore me.
06:32 jrockway hahahaha
06:32 jrockway anyway, repeating what purl says
06:33 jrockway ingy needs wrist surgery
06:33 jrockway i am a total tertiary source though, so i have no idea
06:33 jrockway i saw him in here yesterday though, so at least he's alive
06:34 rindolf jrockway: that's good.
06:35 jrockway here's the exact purl text for completeness:
06:35 jrockway ingy hurt is 20070417 in motorcycle accident in .tw.  Wrist
06:35 jrockway             broken, pending operation.  Gradually recovering, expected to
06:35 jrockway             stabilize in a few days.
06:37 cj sounds like ingy will be okay
06:37 cj oh, you already did that
06:38 agentzh ingy was answering my questions here a few hours before the accident. :(
06:39 agentzh just can't believe it
06:53 agentzh yay! welcome back, ilogger2!
06:53 agentzh i miss you so ;)
07:13 svnbot6 r16026 | agentz++ | * run-smoke.pl now honours the HARNESS_PUGS environment which defaults to './pugs'
07:13 svnbot6 r16026 | agentz++ | * added util/limited_pugs for restricting './pugs' via the ulimit command in sh.
07:13 svnbot6 r16027 | agentz++ | limited_pugs now limited to a cputime of 120 sec
07:13 svnbot6 r16028 | agentz++ | * made prove6 *nix friendly.
07:15 agentzh my svk seems to have problems.
07:15 svnbot6 r16029 | agentz++ | * run-smoke.pl - some win32 love.
07:15 svnbot6 r16029 | agentz++ | * limited_pugs - added the 'nice -n5' and 'ulimit -v 800000' contraints.
07:15 agentzh these commits are very old.
07:19 agentzh i see a lot of conflicts.
07:19 agentzh and it seems i'm repeating existing commits made by others and myself over the last few days :(
07:23 agentzh maybe svk v2.0.1 is just unstable.
07:24 clkao huh? what are you trying to do ?
07:24 agentzh clkao: i'm trying 'svk push'
07:24 agentzh (as normal)
07:25 agentzh but a lot of conflicts between //mirror/pugs and //local/pugs occurred.
07:25 agentzh it seems svk is repeating old commits in the last few days.
07:25 agentzh very weird.
07:26 clkao is your uuid same as somebody else's?
07:26 agentzh no idea.
07:26 agentzh how to check that?
07:28 clkao cat db/uuid
07:28 clkao is this depot a fresh mirror or you copied from somewhere else?
07:29 agentzh it's a fresh mirror.
07:29 agentzh i'm on my own machine, not feather.
07:29 agentzh 6e2bbe1e-9bb6-457c-9519-9cf87a6f6883
07:31 agentzh sorry, but how can i revert svn commits using svk? (i know how on win32 with TortoiseSVN, but not linux)
07:33 clkao svk merge -c -N //path //path
07:34 agentzh clkao: ah, thanks.
07:40 agentzh clkao: is it possible to specify an SVN rev number?
07:45 clkao N@
07:45 agentzh clkao: cool, thanks
07:46 agentzh $ svk merge -C -c -16029@  //local/pugs2 //mirror/pugs
07:46 agentzh Change spec -16029@ not recognized.
07:47 agentzh oh, i should exchange the paths.
07:48 agentzh clkao: it works now. thank you :)
07:48 agentzh i've started another local branch for the pugs mirror.
07:51 agentzh TimToady is still awake? wow
07:59 pasteling "evalbot_r16029" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (314 lines, 17.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24340
07:59 svnbot6 r16030 | agentz++ | added shebang to update-syn
08:50 svnbot6 r16031 | agentz++ | updated util/t/01-smartlinks.t since gaal++ changed the template used by the HTML emitter.
08:53 svnbot6 r16032 | agentz++ | util/t/01-smartlinks.t - fixed a bug
09:09 dduncan ?eval my $s = 'hello'; $s =~ m/oops/;
09:09 evalbot_r16032 \""
09:10 dduncan that should be failing at compile time, according to the specs, as =~ is a braino
09:10 dduncan but it accepts it instead
09:10 moritz write a test case ;)
09:11 dduncan what's with all this coming and going?
09:12 dduncan that is ...
09:12 dduncan I don't setup my client to not display them, but I personally ignore them unless its someone I want to talk to
09:21 svnbot6 r16033 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : in AST.pm, implemented both ::EntityName possreps, renamed ::Value to ::Node
09:25 OwlEye looks like TimToady's connection is having fun :-(
09:31 moritz yay, smoke works again for me, agentzh++
09:31 agentzh moritz: glad to hear that!
09:32 agentzh it's ingy++ who told me the solution :)
09:32 agentzh too bad he is now in the hospital :(
09:32 Aankhen`` http://patricklogan.blogspot.com/2007/02/misguided-road-not-to-be-travelled.html # diatribe against STM... any comments?
09:32 lambdabot Title: Making it stick.: Misguided: The Road Not To Be Travelled, http://tinyurl.com/2n7gbd
09:42 svnbot6 r16034 | Darren_Duncan++ | added test t/operators/brainos.t which checks that a =~ invocation dies at compile time
09:42 dduncan I haven't read it yet, but the principle of STM is good, so an argument against that principle would be misguided ... will read now ...
09:45 Aankhen`` Thanks.  I don't really understand the concepts and pitfalls involved well enough to figure out whether the arguments presented are valid, so I thought this would be a good place to find people who would. =)
09:45 Aankhen`` s/who would/who could/
09:48 dduncan STM is just a mechanism where a coder says that a collection of actions must be atomic, and being able to do that is a good thing
09:48 Aankhen`` Right.
09:48 dduncan I don't see how that can be bad
09:49 dduncan the gist I got from the paper is that the writer says that STM can be misuded, and therefore its better not to include the feature,
09:50 moritz but perl never worked that way
09:50 dduncan which sounds like the antithesis of Perl
09:50 moritz perl always offers any possibility ;)
09:50 dduncan Perl gives you lots of tools and you choose what to use
09:50 Aankhen`` Heh.
09:50 moritz even goto *g*
09:50 Aankhen`` Indeed.
09:50 Aankhen`` moritz: Hey don't be hatin' on the goto.
09:50 Aankhen`` goto &foo; # très useful :-)
09:50 dduncan hey, goto is very powerful ... that's how we get coroutines and exceptions to work, the former particularly
09:51 moritz Aankhen``: I'm merely remarking upon the fact that most "modern" langauges don't have goto anymore
09:51 Aankhen`` moritz: Ah, right.
09:51 dduncan well, I mean the principle of goto is useful
09:51 dduncan that sometimes you don't have to complete your current block before executing another
09:51 Aankhen`` moritz: Sorry, it's 2:50 AM and I've spent the better part of the last few hours in a groggy state reading mostly abstract papers or articles on programming. :-P
09:52 dduncan its that way here too
09:52 dduncan 2:52am here
09:52 moritz Aankhen``: no problem ;)
09:52 Aankhen`` ^_^
09:52 moritz 11:50 am here ;)
09:52 moritz no, 10:50, sorry ;I
09:52 moritz my irc client lies on a server in a different time zone
09:52 moritz which is sometimes confusing ;)
09:53 Aankhen`` dduncan: Hmm, let me see. What I take away from the post, after repeated reading, is that we should be moving towards having no shared state.
09:53 Aankhen`` Whereas he implies STM is about having everything shared.
09:53 dduncan I got that from it too
09:53 dduncan I see STM as dealing about things possibly being shared, and so be safe just in case ... its like being thread safe
09:53 Aankhen`` Ah, good, I'm not quite insane then.  At least on that count.
09:54 Aankhen`` Atomic operations cannot include I/O activity, right?
09:54 dduncan broadly speaking, yes they can
09:54 Aankhen`` (In Perl 6, at any rate.)
09:54 dduncan the caveat is that I/O operations can't be undone
09:54 Aankhen`` Yeah.
09:55 dduncan I mean, some can't be undone
09:55 dduncan if the I/O is with the filesystem, it should be undoable
09:55 dduncan that's what DBMSs do already
09:55 dduncan but if its with users or a network, probably not
09:56 Aankhen`` atomic { ...; $dbh->do('DELETE FROM `users`'); fail "Oops, didn't mean to do that"; }
09:56 Aankhen`` Might be a tad hard to get out of that one.
09:56 dduncan that's why proper DBMSs have rollback
09:56 Aankhen`` Ergh, shame on me for mixing P5 and P6 there.
09:57 Aankhen`` Aye.
09:57 Aankhen`` But I guess from the language's point of view, it has no idea of knowing, so it has to err on the side of caution.
09:57 dduncan fyi, in my DBMS, you usually specify an atomic operation with, eg, "atomic { ... }" rather than begin/commit/rollback
09:58 Aankhen`` So throwing an exception within that means the block fails, falling off normally means it's committed?
09:58 dduncan though that's an option ... all statements in my DBMS are implicitly atomic anyway
09:58 dduncan yes
09:58 Aankhen`` Makes sense.
09:58 dduncan statements and routines both
09:59 dduncan the only time one would actually say atomic { ... } is if they want just a block within a routine to be separately atomic, and then that block may be called try { ...} rather
09:59 Aankhen`` Indeed.
09:59 dduncan since the STM is essentially tied to standard control flow or exceptions
10:00 dduncan but that's in my system, obviously Perl would have a separate atomic {}, since everything is not implicitly transactional
10:00 Aankhen`` Ergh, do you know which synopsis `contend` is in?
10:00 dduncan fyi, what I've written on the matter so far is in ext/QDRDBMS/lib/QDRDBMS/Language.pod
10:00 Aankhen`` Doesn't seem to be in S04 or S06.
10:01 Aankhen`` Oh, excellent.  I'll take a look.
10:01 Aankhen`` Hmm, I should probably svn up Pugs too.
10:01 Aankhen`` I've been pretty lax about that.
10:01 dduncan to be clear, my last comment was about transaction support in my DBMS, not 'contend'
10:01 Aankhen`` Heh, figured as much.
10:02 Aankhen`` Er, did I just imagine `contend`?  I can't find it in any synopsis.
10:02 dduncan as for 'contend', I would have expected it to be in S04
10:02 dduncan or either of those actually
10:02 dduncan looking ...
10:02 dduncan is 'async' anywhere?
10:02 dduncan I mean, 'atomic'
10:02 dduncan though both of those ought to appear together
10:02 Aankhen`` I see a mention of both contend and async in S04.
10:03 Aankhen`` Under `Other do-like forms`.
10:15 dduncan Aankhen, actually, like DBMS transactions, I see one of the main benefits of STM not necessarily having anything to do with shared state ... its that it provides an easy mechanism to undo some partitially completed actions ... and this can be true in isolation
10:16 dduncan so then, STM is orthogonal to shared states, which the paper talked about
10:16 Aankhen`` Ah.
10:17 dduncan in my understanding, STM is just like a database transaction, but it just deals with a program's memory state
10:17 Aankhen`` That's what I thought too.
10:17 Aankhen`` I think I must reluctantly go to bed now.
10:17 dduncan right then
10:17 Aankhen`` dduncan: Always nice to talk to you. :-)
10:17 Aankhen`` G'night.
10:18 dduncan sure
10:18 moritz agentzh: good night
10:18 moritz sorry, that should go to Aankhen`` ;)
10:43 agentzh it's too early for me to say "g'night" ;)
10:44 moritz same for me ;)
11:05 diakopter agentzh: can you run the smartlinks.pl again as soon as this next commit appears
11:05 svnbot6 r16035 | diakopter++ | committing Documentation.pod (S26) changes from upstream::Damian.
11:07 agentzh diakopter: i think feather's cron will do that automatically in the next hour. ;)
11:07 agentzh but anyway, i'll do that manually *now* :)
11:08 svnbot6 r16036 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : minor tweaks
11:09 agentzh diakopter: done :)
11:10 agentzh diakopter: btw, you can always do that yourself via the command "~agentzh/update-syn" if you can't wait cron. :)
11:11 agentzh diakopter: do you have permission problems?
11:11 diakopter nope
11:12 agentzh cool
11:12 diakopter still waking up, here.  wet memory problems.
11:12 agentzh hehe
11:13 diakopter agentzh: I don't know if anyone can currently create smartlinks against S26 - do you know?
11:14 agentzh diakopter: no, no one can at this moment. :(
11:14 agentzh because...because...
11:14 diakopter (Damian has included many inline examples of Perldoc/Pod that would be excellent initial tests)
11:14 agentzh smartlinks.pl can't parse Perl 6 POD yet.
11:14 agentzh are those tests in Perl 6?
11:15 diakopter oh.  I thought it parsed the html.
11:15 agentzh diakopter: it parses the POD directly.
11:15 agentzh parsing HTML will be harder.
11:15 pasteling "evalbot_r16035" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (9 lines, 429B) at http://sial.org/pbot/24344
11:15 agentzh (although not impossible)
11:15 diakopter oh.  what makes it harder?
11:16 agentzh if parsing HTML, then we'll rely our code too heavily on Pod::Simple::HTML's emitter template.
11:17 agentzh (as well as Perl6::Perldoc's template)
11:17 agentzh they may change over releases.
11:18 agentzh HTML source is just too scattered and delicate.
11:19 moritz and you can loose semantics in the translation
11:19 agentzh moritz: indeed.
11:24 agentzh well, i'll try to find some time in the next few weeks to add support for Perl 6 POD to smartlinks.pl.
11:25 agentzh Damian's Perl6::Perldoc::Parser is ready anyway. that's the #1 prerequisite.
11:28 agentzh diakopter: feel free to add "broken" links for S26 to the test suite, which will be very helpful. :)
11:28 diakopter agentzh: i agree that would be helpful.
11:28 agentzh TDD++
11:31 agentzh diakopter: thank you for patching smartlinks.pl to emit HTML for S26 although there's some unnecessary code duplication. :)
11:37 diakopter agentzh: yw. hence my comment "agentzh will fix this sometime" :)
11:40 agentzh diakopter++
11:41 agentzh but right now i'm just too lazy to fix it ;)
11:42 diakopter agentzh: yep.  it was a half-tongue-in-cheek comment.
12:12 zxagent agentzh:I'm coming
13:41 moritz ?eval 1
13:41 evalbot_r16036 1
17:10 moritz not really what I want
17:11 veritos joined #perl6
17:12 svnbot6 r16043 | agentz++ | 01-smartlinks.t - sorted the .t files
17:18 svnbot6 r16044 | agentz++ | more tweaks in util/t/
14:01 agentzh night, all &
14:05 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org | http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
14:09 TimToady joined #perl6
14:14 TimToady joined #perl6
14:15 vel joined #perl6
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14:19 TimToady joined #perl6
14:34 TimToady joined #perl6
14:39 TimToady joined #perl6
14:44 TimToady joined #perl6
14:49 TimToady joined #perl6
14:50 audreyt @tell agentzh YAML::Syck back to service again with 0.85. Thanks!
14:50 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:54 cmarcelo audreyt: hi
14:54 TimToady joined #perl6
14:57 agentzh joined #perl6
14:57 agentzh audreyt++ # JIT YAML::Syck bug fix
14:57 lambdabot agentzh: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:58 HiTech69 joined #perl6
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15:14 ilbot-test joined #perl6
15:14 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org | http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
15:17 toshinori joined #perl6
15:19 TimToady joined #perl6
15:25 offby1` joined #perl6
15:32 TimToady joined #perl6
15:32 TimToady "this time fer shure!"
15:33 [particle] /kick TimToady ;)
15:33 moritz [particle]: he'll leave after a while anyway...
15:33 [particle] HA!
15:34 agentzh he has been kicked :)
15:34 moritz do we even have ops?
15:34 offby1 left #perl6
15:34 [particle] the folks with op generally only turn them on when needed
15:35 moritz ok
15:35 rlb3_work joined #perl6
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15:38 marmic joined #perl6
15:39 TimToady joined #perl6
15:41 TimToady I guess that trick never works...
15:42 offby1 Bullwinkle?
15:45 TimToady joined #perl6
15:45 [particle] TimToady: you should check your back for a "kick me" sign
15:49 kanru joined #perl6
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15:53 agentzh hehe, TimToady is still struggling ;)
15:55 kanru joined #perl6
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16:03 svnbot6 r16037 | agentz++ | another attempt to make t/01-smartlinks.t more portable (hopefully it will now pass on feather)
17:04 moritz theorbtwo: that's what we want to avoid
17:04 moritz as a workaround a deleted that one line
16:05 svnbot6 r16038 | audreyt++ | * yaml_harness.pl - YAML::Syck 0.85 is fine now, so prefer it anyway.
16:14 svnbot6 r16039 | agentz++ | added the util/t/gen-smartlinks-data script to update the regression data
16:18 justatheory joined #perl6
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16:21 svnbot6 r16040 | agentz++ | gen-smartlinks-data now works for real
16:21 svnbot6 r16041 | agentz++ | smartlinks.pl - fixed the HTML syntax error in the emitter template
16:29 mr_ank joined #perl6
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16:33 svnbot6 r16042 | agentz++ | 01-smartlinks.t - another trial
16:34 veritos moritz: that's bad for you.
16:34 moritz veritos: bad for my CPU ;)
16:34 tzoa left #perl6
16:35 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org | http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
16:35 veritos moritz: stop then, it takes long enough to compile pugs anyway.
16:36 agentzh veritos: what if moritz had a strong machine?
16:36 moritz agentzh: I haven't - just a 3 years old laptop :(
16:36 veritos agentzh: silicon is known by the state of california to cause cancer. now go back to committing stuff.
16:37 agentzh oh...maybe you want to try util/limited_pugs then
16:37 veritos moritz: mine's a sempron. you do with what you have when you're a poor programmer ;)
16:38 moritz veritos: right. And when your maschine is not that strong you worry more about efficiency ;)
16:38 veritos moritz: `make fast` eq :)
16:38 moritz veritos: no, that's `make soon' now
16:39 agentzh soon is less confusing :)
16:39 agentzh in fact, the pugs produced by 'make fast' is slower.
16:39 moritz soon enough somebody will confuse it ;)
16:39 veritos agentzh: we know, but we can get it faster.
16:40 rindolf joined #perl6
16:40 rindolf Hi all.
16:40 moritz hi rindolf ;)
16:40 veritos morning
16:40 rindolf Hi moritz, veritos
16:40 rindolf What's up?
16:40 * moritz has just tought his new irclogger how to log actions ;)
16:41 veritos installing FreeBSD. moritz: i read that as irc-clogger for a second.
16:41 moritz what's "clogging"?
16:41 moritz I don't know that word
16:42 agentzh moritz: mind you, upgrade your YAML::Syck to 0.85 before you smoke :)
16:42 veritos moritz: what we're doing to this channel. filling it with so much stuff that it becomes hard to work.
16:42 moritz veritos: *lol*
16:43 * moritz kills the smoke
16:43 rindolf Any news regarding ingy?
16:43 veritos rindolf: is he somehow unable to hack, perhaps due to illness?
16:44 rindolf veritos: not illness.
16:44 moritz veritos: in hospital, serious car accident
16:44 rindolf veritos: he's been in a motorbike accident.
16:44 veritos :(
16:44 * veritos prays
16:47 edenc joined #perl6
16:48 rindolf veritos: no, I think he's more-or-less OK.
16:48 rindolf veritos: I don't think he's in danger of dying or something.
16:48 rindolf veritos: he's been here after the accident.
16:48 veritos rindolf: well we need him to help hack!
16:52 rindolf veritos: heh.
16:55 thorat joined #perl6
16:55 TimToady joined #perl6
16:55 * TimToady suspects his Linksys was dropping lengthy TCP connections...
16:55 TimToady does IRC use TCP?
16:56 clkao yes
16:57 rindolf TimToady: yes, it does.
16:58 TimToady resetting it seems to have helped, anyway.  we'll see...
16:58 TimToady (other evidence: yum couldn't actually download an entire rpm from any one repo)
16:59 TimToady moritz: is it possible to set up the logger table such that it doesn't exceed the width of the page and wraps the text instead?  It's kindof irritating to have to scroll right to see the ends of many comments.
17:00 moritz TimToady: I'll do my best ;)
17:00 moritz is there a simple html/css solution for auto-wrapping text in tables?
17:01 TimToady dunno, not an expert in css.  I think bare html has percentage widths on table columns, but whether that can be percent of page width I don't know.
17:01 moritz ah, it normally does wrap, but in this case pastebot spammed the table with one long word...
17:02 moritz and a single word is normally not wrapped automatically
17:02 TimToady well, banning pastbot isn't the answer.  :)
17:03 theorbtwo overflow: scroll ?
17:03 TimToady hey, I passed my 5-minute-versary, maybe I'll stay up now.
17:04 TimToady could look for long words and break 'em, I suppose
17:05 moritz first I'll look if there is a HTMLish solution
17:06 TimToady that was kind of a weird paste tho
17:06 moritz spam
17:06 moritz /dev/urandom | perl -e $randomScript spam ;)
17:07 franck__ moritz: may be http://www.thescripts.com/forum/thread96534.html ?
17:07 lambdabot Title: Prevent text wrap in a table cell - HTML
17:08 moritz franck__: thanks, I'll try
17:19 agentzh yay, all tests in 01-smartlinks.t passed on feather!
17:20 agentzh hopefully they also pass elsewhere.
17:21 TimToady moritz: are you now weeding out svnbot6?  I think people would like to see those in the log, in general.
17:21 Psyche^ joined #perl6
17:22 TimToady or did your bot just happen to be down for a bit?
17:23 pasteling "evalbot_r16043" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (332 lines, 19K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24362
17:26 moritz TimToady: let me check... (I don't filter anything excpet lines starting with [off])
17:26 agentzh moritz: where's your log? url?
17:27 moritz agentzh: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/
17:27 TimToady just go to irc.pugscode.org
17:27 lambdabot Title: IRC logs
17:27 agentzh moritz: thanks
17:28 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org | http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
17:29 agentzh oh, quite cool
17:30 moritz but why didn't it record the last two lines form svnbot6?
17:30 moritz weird
17:30 thepler joined #perl6
17:31 TimToady not search for /[off]/ or some such, are you?
17:31 TimToady hmm, wouldn't explain the 2nd line...
17:31 moritz no, m/^\[off\]/i
17:31 TimToady it was logging svnbot earlier
17:31 moritz yes
17:33 Patterner changed the nick to Psyche^
17:35 TimToady I just blew away audreyt's dist/build; I think that's the solution to the pasted "can't link" problem, if I recall...
17:36 TimToady and if I don't recall, I'm sure that will also become evident...
17:37 b_jonas does anyone want to try my irc bot evaluating j phrases (j programming language => http://www.jsoftware.com/ )?
17:37 lambdabot Title: J Home
17:37 b_jonas it's called jeval, and evaluates any expression if you prefix it with a right square bracket
17:38 cmarcelo moritz: some ideas for your irc log => would be nice to make URLs "clickable". and if you wan't even more sugar, make things like "r(\d*)" (revision numbers) link to dev.pugscode.org/changeset/\1
17:38 svnbot6 r16045 | karhu++ | Added another food item. Real work will come later today.
17:39 fglock_ joined #perl6
17:40 fglock__ joined #perl6
17:40 agentzh enough commits for a day &
17:40 agentzh left #perl6
17:40 moritz cmarcelo: I planned that ;)
17:41 TimToady brainos.t++
17:42 moritz cmarcelo: added to my (mental) todo list
17:44 cmarcelo moritz: thank you. :) a question: are we "dropping" colabti.de because of your solution or your solution came because colabti.de "dropped"?
17:46 moritz cmarcelo: second one
17:46 moritz cmarcelo: we had no logger, so I wrote one ;)
17:46 edenc joined #perl6
17:57 ilbot-test joined #perl6
17:57 TimToady colabti also defaults to latin-1 rather than utf-8
17:58 TimToady and of course we pay no attention to the fact that it's written in Python.  </wink>
18:02 Juerd I think an IRC logger should default to UTF-8, and then interpret invalid UTF-8 byte sequences as Windows-1252.
18:02 Juerd Irssi does this, and it really works out well in the real world.
18:03 moritz Juerd: mine currently uses Encode::Guess with utf-8 and latin1, and falls back to utf-8
18:03 Juerd How can you ever fall back to utf-8?
18:04 moritz Juerd: so far it semms to work
18:04 moritz well, guess() returns either a decoding or undef
18:04 moritz and in case of undef I use utf-8
18:04 Juerd Oh, you're using heuristics? :(
18:05 moritz Juerd: why not? it's rather easy to distinguish latin1 and utf-8
18:05 geoffb Don't knock heuristics.  Heuristics made me the man I am today.
18:05 geoffb ;-)
18:06 Juerd moritz: On a line by line basis, yes.
18:06 Juerd But you'll be considering entire lines to be latin1 if they contain a single utf8 error.
18:06 Juerd I guess that's not a big problem.
18:07 moritz Juerd: I decided not to think more about it until I see it failing
18:07 OwlEye TimToady, was somebody messing with your connection earlier?
18:07 Juerd I don't think it'll fail.
18:08 TimToady nah, flakey Linksys firewall, apparently
18:08 TimToady probably ran out of resources to keep track of TCP properly
18:08 TimToady so was dropping every TCP connection within a few minutes
18:08 OwlEye oh. i already feared there is bad people around
18:09 OwlEye TimToady, dont you like the Freenode cloaks?
18:09 TimToady I'm paranoid, but I try to be realisticly paranoid. :D
18:09 rindolf Hi OwlEye
18:09 rindolf http://perl-begin.org/ # AndyArmstrong++
18:09 lambdabot Title: Perl Beginners' Site
18:09 OwlEye hey rindolf :)
18:09 rindolf OwlEye: hi.
18:10 rindolf Hi TimToady
18:10 OwlEye TimToady :D
18:10 TimToady *>>.hi
18:10 rindolf TimToady: what's up?
18:10 rindolf TimToady: still working on that p6 grammar?
18:10 TimToady random tweaks
18:10 TimToady someone needs to hack the new pod stuff in now.
18:15 moritz links should be clickable now
18:17 polettix joined #perl6
18:17 OwlEye moritz++
18:19 moritz r16042 <-- just a test
18:27 geoffb joined #perl6
18:29 moritz \br\d+\b now links to the corresponding changeset ;-)
18:30 jjore-w !seen adamk
18:30 moritz perl is so cool, fast successes every few minutes ;)
18:30 devbot6 jjore-w: Error: "seen" is not a valid command.
18:30 jjore-w boo.
18:30 moritz @seen adamk
18:30 lambdabot I haven't seen adamk.
18:30 moritz sigils do matter ;)
18:30 jjore-w ETOOMANYSYNTAXES.
18:30 gaal moose
18:30 cmarcelo moritz++
18:31 gaal back from a hike. why don't I do that more often?
18:31 Casan joined #perl6
18:31 jjore-w @seen alias
18:31 lambdabot I haven't seen alias.
18:31 jjore-w @seen alias_
18:31 lambdabot I saw alias_ leaving #perl6 5h 19m 5s ago, and .
18:32 moritz any more feature requests for the irclogs?
18:34 gaal moritz: a moose icon?
18:34 cmarcelo is it Perl 6?
18:34 gaal or moose in other aspects of it
18:34 moritz cmarcelo: perl5
18:34 moritz gaal: where can I find one?
18:35 gaal @google moose
18:35 gaal etc.
18:35 lambdabot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose
18:35 lambdabot Title: Moose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
18:36 moritz gaal: I thought maybe there is *the* moose that is used in perl context...
18:36 gaal not really, but I can recommend an excellent book on the subject
18:36 gaal http://forum2.org/moose/
18:36 lambdabot Title: The Forum 2 Moose Page
18:37 gaal bbiab...&
18:37 moritz *rofl* moose!
18:39 fglock_ hmm - .WHAT stringifies to short name, but the prototype object doesn't - means .WHAT is some kind of proxy?
18:40 rindolf Hi gaal
18:40 rindolf gaal: what's up?
18:42 veritos joined #perl6
18:43 fglock_ ah, it's a macro
18:43 TimToady fglock_: no, means the prototype isn't stringifying right
18:44 TimToady WHAT should merely return the prototype
18:44 fglock_ but aren't all objects prototypes (potentially)
18:44 offby1 The trouble with a kitten is THAT / Eventually it becomes a CAT            -- Ogden Nash
18:44 TimToady there's a profound difference under tagmemics between "is a
18:44 TimToady between "is a" and "may be used as a"
18:45 TimToady any object may be used as a prototype
18:45 TimToady that doesn't mean that all objects are prototypes
18:45 TimToady just as all objects maybe used as a boolean
18:45 fglock_ ok
18:45 wolverian no wikipedia page for our moose? aww.
18:45 TimToady but not all objects are of type Bool
18:47 fglock_ where can I read more about prototypes x classes
18:47 TimToady moritz: does it distinuish revisions from other bots such as specbot?
18:47 buetow joined #perl6
18:47 jisom joined #perl6
18:48 TimToady fglock_: prototypes are discussed in S02 and S12
18:48 TimToady according to grep, which is my friend.  :)
18:48 fglock_ TimToady: thanks, I'll reread
18:48 edenc joined #perl6
18:49 rindolf TimToady: do you know APL or J?
18:49 * jjore-w had a very nice experience with Oz last night. What a nice little language for soving constraints. :-)
18:49 fglock_ I'm reimplementing kp6 object+container system
18:49 TimToady what makes you think I'd admit it if I did?  :)
18:50 veritos TimToady: you write JAPHs.
18:50 moritz TimToady: no, it doesn't
18:50 rindolf TimToady: :-)
18:50 rindolf "I'm not an actor! I just play one on T.V."
18:51 moritz TimToady: where should I link specbot revisions to?
18:51 veritos although APL can be more clean:
18:51 TimToady APLs monadic vs dyadic distinction is not really that far off from what Perl 6 does with prefix: vs infix:
18:51 veritos perl: print <STDIN> + <STDIN>
18:52 veritos apl: (box) + (box)
18:52 TimToady however, I think APL is badly Huffman coded
18:52 wolverian APL has monads?! :)
18:52 integral The other monadic :-)
18:52 fglock_ the prototype is just a special 'instance'?
18:53 TimToady some operators need to be longer than one character
18:53 TimToady it's an undefined instance
18:54 TimToady so it can be used in reasoning about the class as if it were an instance, as long as you don't actually try to ask it to behave as an object.
18:54 veritos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LifeInApl.gif
18:54 lambdabot Title: Image:LifeInApl.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
18:57 TimToady Unfortunately it's a different meaning of "prototype" from how "prototype OO languages" define it.
18:57 TimToady but we never thought of a better term
18:58 TimToady but our prototype is actually rather more like a prototype than a parent
18:58 TimToady our Rocket class is made out of cardboard, and just looks like a Rocket
18:58 TimToady but if you try to launch it, it won't work.
18:59 TimToady (not that you can't make a real rocket out of cardboard...)
18:59 * jjore-w thinks cardboard rockets sounds like a game.
18:59 fglock_ ok, I think I found out a possible implementation
18:59 TimToady many small rockets actually are cardboard.
19:00 * jjore-w rolls to see if his rocket launches.
19:00 TimToady you have to worry about pitches and yaws too
19:01 TimToady hmm, more likely the Rocket is made out of Styrofoam®
19:02 veritos TimToady: we get it. you worked at JPL. great. /sarcasm
19:04 TimToady well, happens to be I did work there, but my interest in rockets goes back way before that...
19:05 TimToady It's hard to have been born in the 50's and not be a space junkie.
19:06 veritos TimToady: good point. you and ousterhout..shoulda figured.
19:07 * offby1 suddenly realizes that `++', when appended to a nick, could quite reasonably be pronounced "double-plus good"
19:07 fglock_ hmm - it's easier to bootstrap the object system out of 'Method' instead of 'Object', because both Method and Object have methods
19:13 [particle] metamethod system?
19:18 rashakil joined #perl6
19:19 fglock_ yes (kp6)
19:39 ilogger2 joined #perl6
19:49 edenc_ joined #perl6
19:57 zgh joined #perl6
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20:01 fglock_ left #perl6
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20:02 fglock joined #perl6
20:05 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
20:09 veritos joined #perl6
20:12 svnbot6 r16046 | fglock++ | kp6 - added alternate MOP implementation (at temp/)
20:14 pasteling "evalbot_r16045" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (309 lines, 17K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24365
20:14 dduncan joined #perl6
20:18 TimToady that's a rather odd error, given that Setup looks quite executable
20:21 veritos Larry crashed...must be close to finished with a pugs compile.
20:21 TimToady joined #perl6
20:21 veritos seriously--i crashed twice on package 91 of 92.
20:21 moritz which OS?
20:26 TimToady joined #perl6
20:27 veritos moritz: FBSD...
20:27 veritos ooh, bad connection eh?
20:31 TimToady joined #perl6
20:32 veritos TimToady: bad weather?
20:37 TimToady1 joined #perl6
20:37 veritos in p6 pod, is the following line a valid bulleted line:
20:37 svnbot6 r16047 | fglock++ | kp6 - (alternate mop) created metaclass
20:37 veritos * foo
20:38 veritos or do i still need to do the =over 4 =item thing?
20:38 veritos oh never mind
20:41 bonesss joined #perl6
20:41 fglock veritos: you have the option the use =kwid http://perlcabal.org/~audreyt/tmp/perlkwid.kwid
20:42 TimToady joined #perl6
20:49 edenc joined #perl6
20:49 avar Has anything been done in the 6PAN project in a while?
20:50 avar Or some project with the intent of getting Perl 6 modules to CPAN and having something install them
20:50 svnbot6 r16048 | karhu++ | Added framework for Pyrl6 - Perl 6 in Python.
20:53 sili joined #perl6
21:08 fglock ?eval Int.HOW
21:09 evalbot_r16048 changed the nick to evalbot_r16036
21:09 evalbot_r16048 \Class.new(("is" => ("Rat",)), ("name" => "Int"))
21:10 fglock does Class.new create a class?
21:10 fglock or a metaclass?
21:11 fglock it looks like it creates a metaclass,
21:12 fglock but in this case, how do you create a class?
21:12 [particle] what's the difference?
21:12 fglock a metaclass describes a class
21:13 [particle] a class is an instance of a metaclass
21:13 fglock and the class 'is' the class
21:13 [particle] ...so new should create a class given a metaclass.
21:14 [particle] at least, that's how i interpret it, but i may be way off
21:17 fglock I see I'm still stuck with a bad concept of 'prototype' (and now 'metaclass')
21:22 thorat joined #perl6
21:24 fglock &
21:26 svnbot6 r16049 | fglock++ | kp6 - (alternate mop) added value/container stubs
21:42 perlmonkey2 left #perl6
21:46 edenc joined #perl6
21:53 demq joined #perl6
22:00 veritos joined #perl6
22:06 lumi joined #perl6
22:11 rissy joined #perl6
22:18 ilbot-test joined #perl6
22:25 zgh ™/bye
22:30 veritos joined #perl6
22:55 veritos joined #perl6
22:59 offby1 yikes
22:59 offby1 guess that wasn't UTF-8
22:59 veritos offby1: eh?
23:00 offby1 what zgh said 34 minutes ago
23:00 veritos oh.
23:00 moritz no, it wasn't
23:00 moritz and it wasn't clean latin-1 or iso-8859-15 either
23:01 offby1 IRC channels ought to announce their preferred coding system in their topics.
23:01 TimToady the logger decided it meant â„¢/bye
23:01 offby1 and the language, too, if that's not obvious from the rest of the topic ...
23:01 moritz which is nonsense
23:01 TimToady it also decided I should be boldface red somehow...
23:01 offby1 does the logger try to interpret the bytes as characters?
23:02 moritz offby1: it tries to guess if a line is latin1 or utf8, and decodes accordingly
23:02 offby1 gosh, it's ecumenical
23:03 moritz TimToady: is there a color you'd prefer?
23:04 moritz scott asked me to color-code nicks...
23:04 veritos i would assume that he prefers a toady green.
23:04 moritz and so I did ;)
23:04 TimToady and maybe audreyt would prefer red, given she's chinese...
23:05 veritos TimToady: that's TAIWANESE to you.
23:06 TimToady 'sides, after a while the two capital T's start looking like red thumtacks.
23:06 TimToady Tang is a perfectly good Chinese name.
23:06 TimToady has a lot of history
23:06 TimToady but yes, I do rather like green.
23:07 TimToady how are you assigning the other colors?
23:10 moritz currently hand-coded
23:15 TimToady actually, I also like purple
23:16 TimToady maybe you should make audreyt infrared and me ultraviolet.  :)
23:16 veritos TimToady: what's the shade of blue (in rgb hex) for the camel v3 cover?
23:16 TimToady hmm, no clue
23:16 TimToady but I'll bet it's changing with Perl 6 in any case
23:17 veritos about a nice light orange?
23:20 TimToady gaal should probably be moose colored
23:21 TimToady another idea is to not repeat the name for subsequent messages from the same person.
23:21 moritz It ried color: moose; in the CSS file, but firefox didn't recognize it ;)
23:22 TimToady maybe you should have tried "chocolate moose"... :)
23:22 moritz my ppor keyboard ;)
23:22 moritz s/po/oo/
23:26 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
23:27 TimToady unfortunately, O'Reilly already has a Moose Book, the Apache Cookbook.
23:27 Limbic_Region salutatoins all
23:27 Limbic_Region er um
23:27 Tene Is there a Goose Book?
23:27 Limbic_Region well, you get the point
23:28 demq Caribou
23:29 TimToady maybe we just need a Camel strapped to a Rocket...
23:30 Tene We could have the Moose (plural) Book.
23:30 moritz or a moose folded around an onion
23:31 veritos Tene: meese???
23:32 TimToady I don't think anyone has used the polar bear in the snowstorm yet...
23:32 ortmage_ joined #perl6
23:33 moritz Ayn Rand used that for "Atlas Shrugged"
23:33 moritz but everbody thought it was just a plain white cover ;)
23:35 TimToady I don't suppose we could get rights to Rocky and Bullwinkle...
23:37 veritos hmm, i wonder if we could get some Microsoft clip art . . . (naughty look)
23:38 [particle] joined #perl6
23:42 Limbic_Region are we talking about possible O'Reilly animals for a book?
23:42 veritos Limbic_Region: i think
23:42 Limbic_Region I think the perfect one to use would be the spoof I am sure you have all seen
23:43 Limbic_Region http://perl6.ru/img/perl6book-parody.gif
23:43 offby1 :-)
23:43 offby1 I must say I like that.
23:43 TimToady it hath its charms
23:43 veritos wasn't that in one of audrey's presentations?
23:44 moritz nice ;)
23:44 moritz bed &
23:44 offby1 bed & breakfast
23:44 Limbic_Region veritos - possible but I don't know for sure
23:45 veritos Limbic_Region: it's on youtube...just search for audrey yapc.
23:45 TimToady yes, she used it in composition with some other things
23:45 * Limbic_Region is too busy eating
23:46 TimToady I hope you are eating neither your bed nor your breakfast.
23:46 buu What's wrong with eating breakfast?
23:46 offby1 ... and too eating busy
23:47 Limbic_Region It is officially the weekend and hence breakfast, dinner, lunch, supper, brunch, etc hold little meaning
23:47 Limbic_Region I eat when I am hungry
23:50 offby1 that's crazy talk
23:50 Limbic_Region so if I am hungry only once, what do you call that meal?  Or better, if I am hungry 24 times, do you give each of those meals a different name?
23:51 veritos Limbic_Region: and what about second breakfast?
23:52 thorat Limbic_Region: single man, are you? (standard Jay Leno joke)
23:53 Limbic_Region veritos - second breakfast only comes up when I am picnicing in the brier
23:53 Limbic_Region thorat - effectively single until Monday

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