Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:29 * coke wonders if the range behavior in S03 is fer real. =-P
00:30 avar which?
00:36 coke that you can pull from either end, and the behavior depends on which end you pull form.
00:37 avar example?
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00:45 coke ... the one in S03. =-)
00:46 coke http://perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html#Range_semantics :: $range = 1..^42.5;
00:47 lambdabot Title: S03
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01:04 TimToady if by "for real" you mean implemented in pugs, I don't think pugs even implements range objects yet.
01:11 coke I actually kind of meant, "is larry really that crazy." =-)
01:12 coke I'm trying to craft a PIR implementation of that right now.
01:12 coke I had started down the happy path of "ranges must be like iterators", but now I'm just kind of huddled in the corner crying. =-)
01:13 coke to clarify, it doesn't say this, but if you try to shift or pop a value after the range is exhausted, do you just get undef?
01:13 TimToady you get a Fail, which is a variety of undef that includes what went wrong.
01:14 TimToady an "unthrown exception"
01:14 coke Ok. Given the current state of perl6 on parrot, that's "Undef". =-)
01:14 Tene coke: "pull" doesn't appear in S03, as far as I can tell
01:16 coke ... ok.... (did I say pull somewhere?) Oh. right. "which end you pull from" == "do you shift or pop"
01:16 Tene Oh.
01:16 Tene I really should have been able to figure that out.
01:17 coke I wasn't being particularly precise.
01:18 coke TimToady: what if you check "min" after you're exhausted... does that also just Fail?
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01:32 laye msg nickserver info
01:34 TimToady coke: don't think so, I'd just expect it to return a min greater than its max, which if you turned it into a new range would just be a null range.
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01:35 TimToady oh, and I guess it's specced as Failure, not Fail.
01:35 * TimToady .oO(just what we need, a computer that remembers all your failures... :/ )
01:36 topic for #perl6 is:
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01:39 * agentzh has restricted himself via ulimit on feather.
01:40 agentzh does anyone know how to restart svnbot?
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01:59 agentzh oh, i'm not a channel operator...can't invite svnbot6...
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02:03 agentzh &
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02:32 avar avar@Arsia:/var/src/pugs.svn$ ./pugs -CPIR -e 'say "ook"'
02:32 avar pugs: user error (VError (VStr "Compile error -- invalid Pugs.PIL1.PIL_Expr: Stmts (Syn \"=\" [Var $removed,Ann (Pos (MkPos \"<prelude-pir>\" 17 18 17 41)) (App (Var &substr) Nothing [Ann (Pos (MkPos \"<prelude-pir>\" 17 30 17 34)) (Var $str),Ann (Pos (MkPos \"<prelude-pir>\" 17 36 17 38)) (App (Var &prefix:-) Nothing [Val (VInt 1)]),Ann (Pos (MkPos \"<prelude-pir>\" 17 40 17 41)) (Val (VInt 1))])]) (Var $removed)") [(MkPos "-e" 1 1 1 1)])
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02:33 coke ... damnit. I got distracted by talisker. no more range for me this evening. ^_^
02:33 avar "Version: 6.2.13 (r16135)"
02:36 Tene talisker--
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02:40 coke ~~ # nite
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04:25 pasteling "bsb" at 203.214.67.82 pasted "make break" (5 lines, 257B) at http://sial.org/pbot/24544
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08:38 dduncan seen bsb
08:38 bsb dduncan: here
08:39 dduncan I don't think your s/::/-/ change did anything useful
08:39 dduncan lots of other module makefiles still have :: in their name ... do they give you any trouble?
08:40 dduncan afaik, the name in the makefile is normally the package name of the main module, not the distro file name
08:40 bsb no, although I haven't made clean to tell
08:40 bsb I've not used Module::Install much myself, I was going from the cpan docs...
08:40 dduncan now, I don't think your change to LKT hurt anything, but I saw it as unnecessary, and your problem was probably something else
08:41 bsb http://search.cpan.org/~adamk/Module-Install-0.65/lib/Module/Install.pod#name
08:41 lambdabot Title: Module::Install - Standalone, extensible Perl module installer - search.cpan.org, http://tinyurl.com/yrd67m
08:41 dduncan I will not reverse it, however, given that some other ext/ use - too, though most that I sampled used ::
08:41 dduncan looking ...
08:42 bsb I'm not sure what other environment factors might be involved (make version, EMM, etc)...
08:42 dduncan more generally speaking, if there is an actual "best practices" declaration about whether - or :: is better for this, I will follow that ...
08:42 bsb I'll try another ext with name =~ /::/
08:43 dduncan generally speaking, I follow everything in PBP that I don't have an express reason to do otherwise
08:43 dduncan it didn't speak on this issue
08:45 bsb I just tried the same in Text-Glob and got the same error
08:45 bsb Makefile:520: *** target pattern contains no `%'.  Stop.
08:45 dduncan whereas, I get no such errors
08:46 dduncan but if I did, I'm sure the problem isn't related to what is in 'name'
08:46 dduncan I think the only purpose of 'name' is to help the CPAN indexer
08:47 dduncan not the build system
08:47 bsb I just did s/::/-/ in Text::Glob and the make error went...
08:48 dduncan afaik, using :: in name is the usual practice in CPAN distros, and so I did likewise
08:48 bsb DISTVNAME = Text::Glob-6.00  [..later..]  tardist : $(DISTVNAME).tar$(SUFFIX)
08:49 bsb It looks that way, and I've not had problems before so I don't know what would be casuing it
08:49 bsb pmvers ExtUtils::MakeMaker
08:49 bsb 6.30_01
08:50 bsb make -v
08:50 bsb GNU Make 3.81
08:50 dduncan the :: have been in the makefiles for a long time, and so if problems only started appearing recently, then the problem is somewhere else ... unless :: are officially deprecated, and I'm fairly sure they're not
08:51 dduncan all I can suggest is that you try building from a clean repository ... maybe try building the Pugs-6.2.13 tarball as a test case
08:52 bsb if no one else has trouble then I'm happy for you to revert the change
08:52 dduncan my preference is for people to revert their own changes if they change their minds
08:52 dduncan reverting other people's changes can be bad form
08:53 dduncan and I'm currently ambivilent about it, so I won't do it without prompting
08:53 dduncan or rather I should say I have no preference
08:55 bsb I'll try a clean checkout first.  If I can make ext it should be quick
08:59 dduncan bsb, do you use svk?
09:00 dduncan if so, clean checkouts are a quick affair ... if you use svn, that's a big server hit by contrast
09:01 dduncan well, I'm off, 2am and all ...
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12:05 Yaakov Hello, audreyt.
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12:18 Yaakov Does anyone know the best way to get GHC running under OS X?
12:19 kolibrie generally it is best to start with a binary build, then compile a new one if you need a more recent version
12:19 ElPenguin that's the only way to do it since ghc is written in haskell
12:20 ElPenguin beware it takes a lot of memory to compile, so don't mount it on a memory filesystem
12:20 ElPenguin unless you have 2gb
12:20 chris2 swappetyswap
12:21 Yaakov Well, in my foolhardy and ignorant fashion I have typed "sudo port install ghc" and it is doing *something*.
12:21 chris2 it worked for me
12:21 Yaakov Maybe it won't explode.
12:21 chris2 but it takes its time
12:23 kolibrie it's the kind of thing to let your computer do overnight
12:23 chris2 if you like to sleep for three days straight given an poor ibook :-)
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12:24 Yaakov Well, this one is a 1.25GHZ PowerBook.  I think I will start it on the Dual 2GHz G5.  It has 4GB of RAM.
12:24 chris2 yeah
12:24 chris2 use the g5
12:24 chris2 i did it with 1.25g ram
12:24 chris2 but 1.25ghz ibook g4
12:25 Yaakov I have 1GB.
12:25 Yaakov But the same machine otherwise.
12:26 Yaakov I'll just be patient. :)
12:28 chris2 :)
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12:34 Yaakov Heh.  Perl 5.8 is a GHC dependency.
12:42 gnuvince joined #perl6
12:45 coke_ I thought *parrot* took a while to build. =-)
12:45 Coke changed the nick to coke_
12:45 Yaakov gcc 4.0 is also a dependency...
13:02 allbery_b yep, the Evil Mangler is written in perl
13:07 DarkWolf84 Interesting topic
13:09 gnuvince For the redditors in here, you can vote up audreyt++'s Perl 6 Today talk video: http://programming.reddit.com/info/1lbbr/comments
13:09 lambdabot Title: Audrey Tang - Perl 6 Today (Google Video) (reddit.com)
13:09 gnuvince </shameless attempt at getting more karma>
13:10 jerrylee joined #perl6
13:13 avar the up/down rating links aren't regular links *annoyance*
13:14 ayrnieu avar - submit the URL (not the /comments one, but http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3876155376103839772&amp;hl=en ); reddit will take it as an upvote.
13:14 lambdabot Title: Audrey Tang - Perl 6 Today - Google Video, http://tinyurl.com/2j79ep
13:15 avar eek, long url
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13:47 Coke redditors?
13:48 Coke oh. it's digg. =-)
13:49 ayrnieu redditors are amusingly hostile to digg.
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13:57 cognominal changed the nick to stef__
14:05 gnuvince Not sure why
14:05 Coke I imagined so, or else why do it over!
14:05 gnuvince I don't see why they'd care about Digg
14:05 * Coke gets more perl 6/parrot detractors on his other IM system. whee.
14:06 ElPenguin i don't read either any more, but reddit was better than digg IME since it actually tried to find articles it thought you might like
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14:09 rindolf Hi all.
14:09 rindolf Hi gnuvince
14:09 rindolf Hi ayrnieu
14:12 [particle] joined #perl6
14:21 ayrnieu howdy, rindolf.
14:21 rindolf ayrnieu: what's up?
14:23 rashakil_ joined #perl6
14:24 araujo Coke, Tell them it is written on Haskell
14:25 araujo that will beat them all
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14:37 Coke written in haskell is SOOOO not a selling point.
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14:48 DarkWolf84 this christmas joke is very popular :P
14:50 Coke ... not really, no.
14:50 Coke it's amusing "in house", but when trying to win converts, it merely underscores the fact that it's take us about 7 years and we don't have a lot to show for it. =-)
14:54 DarkWolf84 I don't understand all things but the speach was good
14:55 DarkWolf84 speech*
14:55 DarkWolf84 my english again*
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15:10 * demq loves speaches, they are much better than lecturines
15:10 * offby1 slaps demq upside the haid
15:11 offby1 I wish I had said that.
15:21 rindolf Hi offby1
15:22 offby1 ho ho
15:23 DarkWolf84 well then  it's not christmas yet :)
15:24 offby1 heigh ho
15:26 amnesiac joined #perl6
15:29 rindolf offby1: what's up?
15:30 offby1 rindolf: since you asked -- and since there's no traffic on this channel -- I'm at Roger Ebert's Overlooked Film Festival.
15:30 rindolf offby1: oh OK.
15:30 rindolf offby1: and IRCing from your laptop?
15:31 * offby1 glances around nervously.
15:31 offby1 it's a filthy lie
15:31 offby1 I'm not that big a nerd
15:31 * offby1 glances around nervously.
15:31 offby1 oh all right; yes.
15:31 offby1 proxied through my home machine via SSH, naturally.
15:32 offby1 don't want those nasty hotel people snooping on my Top Sekrit IRC messages.
15:35 lumi That are publicly logged
15:38 * offby1 glances around nervously.
15:40 offby1 I may be obsessed with cryptography and privacy, but I like to think I'm realistic enough to realize that nobody cares what I say :-)
15:41 * [particle] read 'Top Sekrit' as 'Tom Skeritt', who lives in seattle
15:41 [particle] i thought maybe you were stalking him
15:41 offby1 so my wife reminds me
15:41 offby1 [particle]: we Seattleites get depressingly-few celebrity spottings.
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15:42 [particle] that doesn't depress me... only the lack of good pizza and bagels
15:43 offby1 don't like, Pagliacci?
15:43 offby1 oh yeah -- you're from NYC
15:43 offby1 a higher standard and all that
15:43 gnuvince php--
15:44 [particle] there's better fish here, for sure, but who grabs a slice of fish?
15:44 * offby1 occasionally grabs a pile of mussles
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15:54 TimToady as a reformed Seattlite myself, my main quibble is that there's very little good Japanese food.  A Teriyaki stand on every other corner doesn't count...
15:54 PerlJam TimToady: move to Japan  :)
15:54 offby1 TimToady: I had no idea.  What 'hood?
15:55 TimToady then I would starve, because I can't eat seafood or salt.  :(
15:55 PerlJam Why can't you eat salt?
15:55 TimToady hypertension
15:55 TimToady well, not much salt
15:56 TimToady Queen Anne, a bit of North Seattle
15:56 [particle] bet you miss your salted coffee
15:56 * offby1 fumes with jealousy
15:56 TimToady had to cut down on that too...
15:56 [particle] i've got a few favorite sushi joints
15:57 [particle] but full-service japanese restaurants? you're right, they number few
15:57 TimToady I'd get tired of kappamaki
15:58 TimToady the nice one in Wallingford apparently closed down
15:58 [particle] plenty of thai, malay, and chinese, though
15:58 * offby1 lives in Wally World
15:58 [particle] i only know musashi's in wallingford, which is great for cheap sushi
15:58 [particle] mmm, sweet onions
15:58 offby1 [particle]: is that why it's always so crowded?  I've almost never gotten in to it
16:00 [particle] yes, it's cheap and good
16:00 [particle] well, fair. good for the price
16:01 [particle] i go when it opens, at ~5:30
16:01 TimToady this was a little white restaurant with a picture of a dog on the front.  don't remember the name, sigh
16:02 TimToady actually, it was probably a pugs, now that I think of it...
16:02 offby1 picture of a dog?  I'd have loved it
16:02 TimToady a cartoony picture
16:02 offby1 perhaps before my time -- I've only lived in Seattle since '92
16:02 TimToady it was there up till a couple years ago
16:03 offby1 now you've put a bee in my bonnet.
16:04 TimToady you're going to start a Japanese restaurant in Seattle?
16:04 [particle] don't kill it, we're having a bee shortage this year
16:04 offby1 no, I'm going to obsess over figuring out what it was
16:06 offby1 for some value of "obsess".
16:07 Yaakov Hello, TimToady!
16:08 vel joined #perl6
16:09 Yaakov TimToady: I forgot to tell you last time I saw you that I used to bounce your email fairly regularly.
16:10 Yaakov From 1995 until a few months ago I owned netlab.com (singular).
16:11 vel joined #perl6
16:12 TimToady every now and then I get email from some who says: "Hi, my name is Larry Wall, and I keep getting email for you."
16:12 gnuvince joined #perl6
16:12 TimToady *someone
16:12 Yaakov I think that mail is from Larry Wall!
16:13 [particle] :)
16:13 * offby1 never has that problem, oddly enough
16:13 masak now there's a different interpretation of @larry...
16:14 Yaakov Of course having the name Larry Wall and not being you would probably be an inconvenience.
16:14 Yaakov "Hello this is Larry Wall." "Oh, hey, I just love PERL."
16:15 masak ?eval my @fib := ( 0, 1, each( @fib, @fib[1..*] ).map( &infix:<+> ) ); @fib
16:16 [particle] there's a pulitzer-winning photographer in seattle with my name
16:16 offby1 wow, how Haskell-esque
16:16 [particle] i occasionally get phone calls for him
16:16 Yaakov Hey! Haskell built in four hours on the Dual G5.
16:17 Yaakov Not bad.
16:17 offby1 [particle]: really?!  I try to be hip to the photo world but have never heard of such a  person
16:17 [particle] worked for the PI in the '70s
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16:19 Yaakov I guess I will run it overnight on the PowerBook.
16:20 ilogger2 joined #perl6
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16:21 veritos morning
16:22 Yaakov afternoon
16:33 DarkWolf84 for me is evening
16:33 DarkWolf84 :)
16:34 masak "good undetermined time of day" doesn't quite have that special ring to it...
16:34 Yaakov Good $local_time_of_day!
16:36 veritos 'good ' . scalar localtime
16:37 Yaakov veritos: But that's not a fuzzy time.
16:38 [particle] good +-4hrs
16:38 TimToady *.tz.good
16:38 integral 'good ' . ((localtime)[2] > 12 ? 'afternoon' : 'morning')
16:38 Yaakov integral: Can you work Math::Fuzzy into that?
16:39 offby1 in #emacs they just say "yo" or "'sup" and be done with it.  Those are universal.
16:39 TimToady when I say "sup" it does an svn update...
16:39 Yaakov Heh.
16:39 * integral can't see that on search.cpan.org, is there search.cpan6.org yet?
16:39 * [particle] considers rand()..rand() and wonders what min and max might be :)
16:41 TimToady hmm, I wonder if rand should be 0-ary
16:42 TimToady always meaning 1.0.rand
16:42 offby1 something about rand in perl5 irks me ... I can't remember what though
16:42 offby1 it caused me to write a note in my camel book!
16:42 TimToady 7.0.rand would be rand * 7
16:42 Yaakov integral: Hrm.  It is a Cocoa library, it seems.
16:42 Yaakov integral: You will have to use Mac::Glue.
16:42 TimToady and 7.rand would be (0..6).pick
16:43 [particle] and (1,2).rand ?
16:43 geoffb TimToady: that dwim makes it hard for $foo.rand to dwim correctly
16:44 TimToady yeah, should just mean rand * 7, and you write 7.rand.int for the other
16:44 * geoffb having to deal YET AGAIN with XS code that tries to dwim IV v. NV, and trips over NV + NV = IV if the result is an exact integer in range
16:45 avar XS will eat your family!
16:45 TimToady still bugs me that ^7.pick doesn't work
16:45 avar speaking of which, what is planned for xs-ish stuff for p6?
16:45 TimToady 'cause it parses as ^(7.pick)
16:45 TimToady some variant of Native Call Interface
16:46 geoffb How should 0..^7.pick parse.  Same way?
16:46 TimToady same problem
16:46 geoffb bah
16:46 TimToady 0..^(7.pick)
16:46 TimToady nothing is tighter than postfix dot
16:46 geoffb gotcha
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16:47 TimToady ?eval pick ^7
16:48 TimToady looks like it's still computing that 1..* from the last ?eval :(
16:48 geoffb I don't see evalbot in the channel user list, actually
16:48 veritos lol
16:48 TimToady or perhaps it has solved the halting problem.
16:48 geoffb never started after feather got hupped?
16:49 Yaakov My programs solve that problem with regularity.
16:51 DarkWolf84 where is evalbot btw
16:51 TimToady examples/network/evalbot
16:51 TimToady (just did the find myself...)
16:51 DarkWolf84 i know the code is there
16:52 DarkWolf84 but why it don't respond
16:52 TimToady it's in the nether world
16:52 DarkWolf84 :>
16:52 TimToady we need a medium to call it up
16:52 Yaakov It may be in an uninstantiated state.
16:52 rindolf Hi all.
16:52 rindolf Hi TimToady
16:52 Yaakov TimToady: Perhaps a large would be more effective.
16:53 TimToady rofl
16:53 DarkWolf84 evalbot don't have many sins (bugs)
16:53 DarkWolf84 :P
16:53 TimToady as far as I know, it has only one sin
16:54 TimToady pugs> say sin 1
16:54 TimToady 0.8414709848078965
16:54 DarkWolf84 ahaha :>
16:54 DarkWolf84 LOL
16:54 demq doesnt sin have a cos?
16:55 TimToady "...but if anyone has kept the whole law but stumbles in one point, he is guilty of all..."
16:55 offby1 sin has a cost, yes
16:56 DarkWolf84 maybe it has a cos not cost :)
16:56 TimToady maybe it was a cosθ
16:56 demq yeah its a cos, cos tan.
16:57 geoffb We've all been transported to #pun, apparently
16:58 demq 'pun my manners
16:58 TimToady actually, θ  was likely pronounced as an aspirated t originally
16:59 DarkWolf84 maybe the eavalbot is retired actualy
16:59 TimToady has it got tired more than once?
16:59 [particle] no, it's tires are worn.
16:59 demq it tried more than once
17:00 [particle] ?evil sin 1
17:00 TimToady tͪsk, tͪsk
17:00 demq . o O ( Why are they always picking on us lefties )
17:01 geoffb Because you're sinister?
17:01 TimToady a dyslexic is a Greek with a broken right hand
17:01 geoffb LOL
17:02 demq heh
17:04 demq timtoady is there anything left that i can do to make the p5 engine closer to the p6 semantics?
17:04 DarkWolf84 moose
17:04 TimToady implement the /p6 modifier?
17:04 TimToady :
17:04 TimToady :)
17:05 demq heh.
17:05 demq i thought avar was all over that?
17:05 TimToady basically /p6 would turn off all string interpolation
17:05 TimToady and rely on the re engine for variable processing
17:05 demq oh yes, then avar has been working on that. sortof
17:05 DarkWolf84 oh right
17:06 DarkWolf84 the regex interpolation
17:06 demq i think the plan is to pass in an AV of vars. long termish.
17:06 TimToady it's the Big Fat Design Bug in perl 5...
17:06 demq then let the regex engine do what it likes. is that not good enough?
17:07 TimToady why do you need an AV of vars?
17:07 demq er.
17:08 * demq pleads the 5th, or is it the 4th.
17:08 TimToady just don't plead the 2nd...
17:08 demq i think its just cause it what already happens.
17:08 TimToady that's the Big Fat Design Bug!!!
17:08 demq except that current the vars are joined before regcomp gets called.
17:08 demq currently
17:08 TimToady the lexer should just keep it's cotton pickin' hands off the regex language
17:09 demq ok.
17:09 * DarkWolf84 is waiting for cristmas
17:10 demq i can have a look.
17:11 demq anything else? i was more thinking along the lines of \v and \h and stuff. i mean are you ok with \R?
17:12 TimToady well, it's okay in p5.  it won't get into p6, since it violates a fundamental regularity there.
17:13 TimToady well, not so fundamental, but a regularity nonetheless
17:13 TimToady but p5 already has things like \A that violate it
17:13 TimToady so what's one more...
17:13 demq ok. i can understand that.
17:14 TimToady and the p5 to p6 translator will just have to translate \R to \n
17:14 demq \R is actually asymetrical in behaviour.
17:15 TimToady as long as \n encompasses \R, it's probably still the right translation
17:15 demq in the sense that not \R is the same as \V
17:15 TimToady nor is \n
17:15 TimToady but p6 defines \n as logical newline on all the major platforms, basically.
17:16 demq so is there a \N?
17:16 TimToady sure
17:16 demq and is the same as \V?
17:16 TimToady no
17:16 demq shouldnt it be?
17:17 TimToady carriage return is arguably not vertical whitespace
17:17 TimToady but \n recognizes CRLF among other things
17:17 demq its in the \v spec for parrot tho?
17:18 demq cause if when negated its different from \V then IMO \j and \J make more sense (for p5 with a more p6 behaviour)
17:19 demq i couldnt find a rationale for \v and \h, so i just took the definition that particle provided.
17:19 demq should i change it to remove \r from \v?
17:19 TimToady I tend to think that \r is horizontal whitespace, albeit negative...
17:20 demq . O ( macintosh uses \r as \n doesnt it? )
17:20 TimToady when I say \r I mean \x0d
17:20 demq what you say makes sense to me on one level.
17:20 demq yes i mean \x0d too. :-)
17:20 TimToady but I see the other side too
17:21 TimToady CR is rarely used except in conjunction with LF
17:21 allbery_b os9 and earlier used \x0D as newline, yeh
17:21 TimToady but there are uses for it
17:21 allbery_b osx uses \x0A, since it's more or less unix under the hood
17:21 demq im ok with either. id say that if \x0d isnt in \v then it should be in \R which should really be renamed to \j so it can be reversed to \J.
17:21 TimToady which is probably why Unicode ignored older macs with \R
17:21 avar TimToady: there's more than just getting the tokenizer to leave the regex alone and stopping interpolation, you still have to map grammars to p5 somehow
17:22 avar which I guess you could do with packages and telling a regex to call its methods when it needs a rule/token/regex specified in it
17:23 TimToady well, that's essentially how p6 does it, by unifying grammars and classes
17:23 demq btw unicode defines \0xd as a lineboundary.
17:23 TimToady I don't like this business of re-inventing grammars inside of regexland
17:23 avar I've been cleaning up some of the stuff I'll need to get p6-ish engines to work on p5, I'm doing what I need for :rw next for instance
17:24 TimToady well, that would be a good argument for keeping it in \v
17:24 avar TimToady: You can make an engine now that supports scalars, like if ($x =~ sub {}), that'll get you pretty far..
17:24 demq which leaves \R (p6 \n) assymetrical.
17:24 TimToady arguably it could be in both \v and \h
17:24 avar just by that you can have yer closures and everything without p5 mucking with it
17:24 avar demq: can you think of anything else?
17:25 demq adding it to \h is ok. i can do that easily.
17:26 avar if ("str" =~ [ [ qw(ignorecase continue 3rd) ] => \&matcher ]) {}
17:26 demq i was thinking that the whole \r \n thing is conceptually quite similar to unicode case folding.
17:26 TimToady note that :rw is considered optional for p6 if it causes too much pain to the implementors
17:26 avar it's trivial-ish to implement on p5, I implemented it already with some obscure failing tests
17:27 avar but basically you treat the string being matched against as a scalar and do what substr does
17:28 avar is <foobar> in p6 regex always a method call basically? Well, that or CODE that the regexp language executes itself..
17:28 TimToady well, but some implementations of P6 may find it difficult to map one string into the middle of another.
17:29 avar as a simple example, how would I make a rule implemented as a function in p6 that does what token { a* } does?
17:29 TimToady yes, basically always a method, with an implicit invocant representing the current match context
17:29 avar you get some ref to the string, set .pos ?
17:29 avar it should be noted that I don't know p6:)
17:30 * offby1 duly notes
17:30 TimToady the match context has to be established by the outermost invoked rule and propagated downward.
17:30 TimToady there's more to it than just the current position in the current string
17:31 avar yeah, you might want to set match vars and whatnot, call other rules..
17:31 TimToady basically it represents the dynamic scope of the match
17:32 TimToady and it looks like "self" to the closures embedded in the regex
17:32 avar But I've found it pretty hard just from reading s05 to understand what I'll need to do to get p6 semantics working in a non-sucky way on p5. Maybe I should look at some of the engines people have been writing:)
17:32 avar ah
17:32 avar that or test cases, any reading suggestions?
17:33 TimToady fglock probably has a better notion of that
17:33 avar I should bug him:)
17:33 avar but in blead now you can construct an object of your choosing, match that against a custom engine and set $1, $& et al to be objects. not %+ and %- though currently, but working on it
17:34 demq that reminds me i wanted to make it possible to use nested numbering on the capture buffers.
17:34 avar http://sial.org/pbot/24554
17:34 lambdabot Title: Paste #24554 from Someone at 85.197.228.236
17:35 TimToady I consider %+ and %- to be a botched API
17:35 avar demq: stuff like like that looks easy-ish when you can use the p5 engine but with your own exec/comp funcitons
17:35 demq eek.
17:36 avar any reason you can't do it with the current regex opcode?
17:36 TimToady parallel arrays are usually a code smell
17:36 avar how about ->from and ->to
17:36 avar TimToady: ya
17:36 TimToady submatches should look like objects, yes, with such methods
17:36 avar something like $/ in p5 would be nice, you currently have to use ${^MATCH} for that
17:37 TimToady and I can never remember whether + comes before - or vice versa...
17:37 avar %+ is the first? named capture, values in %- are arrays of all captures with a specific name
17:37 TimToady well, if you're gonna get serious about it, the $/ stand-in had better be lexically scoped.
17:37 avar @{ $-{ook } }
17:37 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
17:38 demq lexically and not dynamically like $1?
17:38 avar TimToady: it's not, and it really can't be without some *major* changes
17:38 TimToady $1 is lexical in P6
17:38 avar demq: amiright?
17:38 jisom joined #perl6
17:39 avar the only solution I can think of is to bind alter a qr// object you're matching against
17:39 TimToady yeah, at some point you cut it off and say you can't get the rest of P6 without P6...
17:39 edenc joined #perl6
17:39 TimToady but we're talking about emulating semantics, and at least the match object should be lexical
17:40 avar my $re = qr/(<[a .. z]>)*/; if ("ookoekaeou" =~ $re) { $re->[0]->from }
17:40 TimToady even if $1 doesn't map to it and you have to write ${^MATCH}[0] or some such
17:40 demq hrm, making matches lexically scoped, if i understand what that means properly is a simplification, and not a complication. as far as i understand things.
17:40 avar the "match object" in p5 is just $& currently
17:40 VanilleBert joined #perl6
17:41 fglock joined #perl6
17:41 TimToady well, if I recall, p5 is most of the way to having $_ be lexical, so other magicals could also do that.
17:41 avar TimToady: In case you didn't know ${^MATCH} is just another name for $& that doesn't trigger sawampersand, there are aliases for $` and $' too
17:41 avar $_ is lexical
17:42 avar But to be honest I don't know how much work it is, all that code does PM_GETPM which operates on the dynamic scope currently, don't know how hard it would be to make it a lexical
17:42 TimToady $! is also lexical in P6
17:43 avar is anything not lexical?:)
17:43 demq i dont see why it would be hard.
17:43 TimToady um...
17:43 demq the tricky part in the current implementation is dealing with PL_curpm in the first place.
17:44 demq bypassing it seems to me to be quite simply.
17:44 avar yup
17:44 demq er, theoretically.
17:44 TimToady anything that's not lexical in P6 tends to be named $*PID and such
17:44 TimToady nearly all the punctuation vars are just gone
17:45 demq i guess when i say simple i mean from the pov of the engine, not the toker/lexer. i have no idea what would be involved there. i guess that could be hard.
17:45 avar Not to steamroll all over your fancy new language but why aren't $* and such just READONLY scalars in as scope that's considered to be the scope before your main scope?
17:46 avar Sort of like you'd to it in scheme iirc, everything is just a nested lexical let binding:)
17:46 avar but I haven't been involved in p6 design so I'm not familiar with the tradeoffs, so please excuse any dumb questions:)
17:47 avar demq: Yeah, it's simple for the engine of course, it doesn't have to care :)
17:48 VanilleBert left #perl6
17:48 avar s/main scope/top level scope/
17:49 TimToady avar: well, that's more or less what they are, but not necessarily read only
17:49 TimToady you can modify %*ENV for instance
17:49 OwlEye joined #perl6
17:49 demq im worried about what you said about %+ and %-.
17:49 TimToady but we don't automatically import global vars into the file's lexical scope.
17:49 avar so perl -e 'say $*PID' would really mean -e 'my $*PID = CORE::SCARY::COMPILER::STUFF::ZOMG::getpid(); { say $*PID }'
17:50 TimToady well, it's just copying the botch from @+ and @-, so it's not your fault. :)
17:50 avar TimToady: ya, readonly is beside the point though:)
17:50 demq heh. thats true. :-)
17:50 Psyche^ joined #perl6
17:50 TimToady if I recall, it was an Ilyaism
17:51 demq its funny actually, @+ and @- maps directly to the old internal C representation.
17:51 avar how is magic like %*ENV done in p6? Just an object that knows to to getenv/setenv on fetch/assignment
17:51 demq but now its unified internally.
17:51 avar demq: yours maybe, but not mine for long!
17:52 avar that last one needed a "?"
17:52 TimToady yes, just an object that does the Hash role
17:52 fglock hi
17:52 demq yes ive been meaning to get up to speed on what youve been doing.
17:52 avar I've been screwing up your code
17:53 TimToady let's you and him fight. :)
17:53 offby1 Gentlemen, you can't fight here.  This is the War Room.
17:53 avar offby1++
17:54 * demq wonders what avar has been up to
17:55 offby1 avar: I have that quote bound to a "dynamic abbrev" in Emacs, so I can just type "wr" :-)
17:55 TimToady fglock: hi, avar was wondering earlier what additional improvements to p5 regexen would aid emulating p6 regexen
17:56 TimToady I figgered you'd have the worm's eye view of that problem space...
17:56 * [particle] thinks porting PCR to blead would be instructive
17:57 avar [particle]: Do you want to help with that?:)
17:57 [particle] want? yes.
17:57 avar I have a re::engine::Plugin interface (latest not on cpan) that should be able to do it along with Parrot::Embed or whatever
17:57 [particle] PCR is Pugs::Compiler::Rule
17:58 [particle] no parrot needed
17:58 avar if you can show me how to use the PGE object from p5 space with that it should be eeeasy
17:58 [particle] it's written in p5
17:58 avar I read that as PGE
17:58 avar I already have a re::engine::PGE
17:58 [particle] hrmm
17:59 * avar urls
17:59 [particle] i think that can be arranged
17:59 avar I still meant PGE, I know how to use PCR, almost:)
18:00 * avar notices parrot/lib/Parrot/Test/PGE.pm
18:01 [particle] that'll give you access to the basics
18:01 avar [particle]: http://sial.org/pbot/24555
18:01 lambdabot Title: Paste #24555 from Someone at 85.197.228.236
18:02 fglock there is also a version of PCR in Perl6, under MiniPerl6; it compiles to plain perl5
18:03 Patterner changed the nick to Psyche^
18:03 fglock re improvements, I had notes somewhere - looking
18:03 avar but I broke my ::Plugin with my recent blead patches. If anyone's interested in writing pure-perl5 engines for blead I can get it cpanned sooner than later..
18:04 avar http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2007-04-27,Fri&amp;sel=248#l378
18:04 lambdabot Title: #perl6 2007-04-27,Fri, http://tinyurl.com/29o6pa
18:04 avar fglock: that's for you
18:04 ruoso joined #perl6
18:04 TimToady fglock: how different is that PCR from the one used by pugs?
18:04 avar it uses fancy emitted code:)
18:06 fglock it translates regex->miniperl6; it would probably useful for implemening "native" regexes in pugs itself
18:08 pasteling "TimToady" at 71.139.1.42 pasted "what PCR currently says about cheated STD.pm" (571 lines, 48.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24556
18:09 fglock it looks like it needs a bugfix or two
18:09 TimToady not too worried about the "masks earlier" warnings...
18:10 TimToady it's the last "cannot parse" that puzzles me
18:11 TimToady but that's probably a result of one of the earlier messages
18:12 fglock I think PCR 'before' requires a whitespace after it
18:13 fglock yes it does - http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Grammar/Rule2.pm
18:13 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2fgmop
18:13 TimToady well, but then how do you pass the parameter as an ordinary parameter?  :)
18:14 Yaakov joined #perl6
18:14 TimToady I suppose <?before <$stop>> should also work in this case, but I think that fails to parse also...
18:14 fglock in short: modify the grammar; recompile; patch; implement the runtime changes
18:15 fglock it takes some work
18:15 demq avar your latest patch applies and compiles clean, im runing test now.
18:15 fglock $stop points to a rule, right?
18:18 TimToady I believe so
18:19 ingy hola
18:19 TimToady changing to <?before <$stop>> gets the same error
18:19 fglock looking...
18:20 TimToady ingy: how's the validity of the invalid?
18:21 ingy undervalued
18:21 * ingy is high on life
18:21 ingy http://ingy.net
18:22 lambdabot Title: Ingy 2.ö
18:22 ingy :)
18:23 ingy TimToady: I'm not so much invalid as a bionic noob
18:23 TimToady lol
18:24 ingy bionics like Perl6 take a while to get used to
18:25 ingy 6 Million Dollar Perl
18:25 rindolf Hi ingy
18:25 rindolf ingy: how are you feeling now?
18:26 ingy rindolf: my bionic arm weighs too much
18:26 ingy kinda hurts
18:26 ingy just to carry
18:26 rindolf ingy: bionic arm?
18:27 rindolf ingy: you've lost your hand?
18:27 ingy no
18:27 ingy just some wrist bone
18:27 ingy http://gugod.org/blog/2007/04/ingys-staus.html
18:27 lambdabot Title: gugod: Ingy's status
18:28 ingy there's a pic
18:28 ingy more action pics comin soon
18:29 fglock hmm - <before <$stop>> works, <?before <$stop>> doesn't
18:29 TimToady I could get rid of the ?, but I also use <!before...>
18:31 [particle] ingy: air travel should be more fun now
18:32 TimToady still doesn't like it without the ?
18:34 TimToady now that I have bionic eyes, can we get stereoscopic pix?
18:35 TimToady a hologram would do in a pinch
18:35 pasteling "fglock" at 201.54.129.80 pasted "before-scalar test" (15 lines, 337B) at http://sial.org/pbot/24557
18:36 fglock hmm - maybe pugs/perl5 are not seeing each other variables
18:37 edenc joined #perl6
18:39 franck__ joined #perl6
18:47 justatheory joined #perl6
18:48 fglock TimToady: fixing, but I need some coffee first
18:49 TimToady first things first.  :)
18:52 jisom anyone here know how to get an insane amount of debugging output with gdb to help track down a bug that occurs sporadically with parrot?
18:53 jisom or any help with gdb other than a backtrace
19:01 vel joined #perl6
19:06 fglock dunno - my test works in perl5, but it doesn't work in pugs
19:11 justatheory joined #perl6
19:12 fglock I've been thinking about parsing STD with v6.pm, and then emitting 'pugs' code (PCR works better under v6.pm)
19:13 TimToady that'd be cool
19:13 fglock otoh, pcr could be used to generate pugs code, that could be eval'ed by pugs
19:13 TimToady we can always do more cheats to make it easier
19:14 TimToady hmm, might get you continuations for free
19:14 fglock TimToady: I'll take a look; it will need some runtime libs too
19:15 fglock but those can be written in p6 :)
19:16 TimToady I think a top-down bootstrap might motivate people more, when they can actually see their P6 code parsed by P6
19:16 TimToady kp6 was already headed in that direction, seems like
19:17 fglock mp6 can already compile a grammar into plain p6-pugs, it can be used to build a pcr-on-pugs
19:18 TimToady that might integrate better too
19:19 TimToady not having to fight passing vars back and forth between p5 and p6, for instance
19:19 fglock TimToady: kp6 has a problem, the plan should be better documented for people to be able to help
19:19 fglock yes
19:20 fglock so do you think pcr-on-pugs would help?
19:20 TimToady I believe it would
19:21 TimToady how much work would it be?
19:21 fglock I've got a 4-day holiday ahead :)
19:21 TimToady are there any semantics missing from pugs that PCR would want to rely on?
19:21 fglock TimToady: it's almost straightforward, if you reuse the mp6 version
19:22 fglock the backtracking engine need to be implemented
19:22 fglock mp6 is ratchet only
19:23 TimToady not sure how close pugs continuations are to working...
19:23 mauke joined #perl6
19:25 TimToady looks like t/unspecced/cont.t passes all its tests
19:26 TimToady so I guess you could rely on continuations
19:26 TimToady of course, might not be the most efficient way to implement a backtrack...
19:26 dduncan joined #perl6
19:26 fglock is there something in pugs/ext/ that could be used?
19:27 TimToady used for what?
19:27 fglock for the regex engine
19:27 TimToady dunno
19:27 TimToady could probably rely on pcre for bits of it
19:28 TimToady or could rely on bits of p5-pcr for well understood matches
19:29 TimToady pcre might do the DFAish bits for us
19:29 TimToady but that linkage is probably not via ext/
19:30 fglock pure pugs would be easier to mix with p6 closures
19:30 TimToady seems like a reasonable first approx anyway
19:31 TimToady and as pugs speeds up will automatically speed up as well
19:31 polettix joined #perl6
19:32 TimToady and repeated bits can be factored out into Haskelland by lambdacamelids
19:32 fglock otoh, can STD be parsed with tokens only? then you don't need to start with a backtracking engine
19:33 TimToady good question
19:33 TimToady STD itself only uses backtracking in a couple of spots
19:33 TimToady to interpolate $foo.bar.baz()
19:33 TimToady and to recognize certain hyperoperators
19:33 TimToady we can certainly avoid those in the short term
19:34 edenc joined #perl6
19:34 [particle] maybe do a Perl-6.0.0-MIN first
19:35 TimToady well, and the cheated version assumes that a failed longer-token rule progresses to looking for a shorter token
19:35 TimToady cheat STD.pm > MIN.pm
19:37 fglock ... > plain-pugs.pm
19:37 TimToady well, it's just >foo when I do it.  :)
19:38 fglock I guess a beefed-up mp6 could do that
19:38 the_dormant joined #perl6
19:38 fglock with some help (parentheses, etc)
19:38 TimToady STD does heavily rely on the grammar/class unification though
19:39 TimToady since <EXPR> is just written as a method, for instance
19:39 fglock no problem I think - mp6 compiles regex to methods
19:40 TimToady also relies a lot on the <foo($bar,$baz)> form
19:40 TimToady k
19:40 TimToady <EXPR(%assignment)> calls bottom up but stops if looser than assignment, for instance
19:41 TimToady and that's something that doesn't translate to <EXPR regex> form
19:41 TimToady you don't have to worry about multi-rules, since cheat turns those into sequenced rules for you.
19:42 TimToady (assuming they're ordered reasonably)
19:42 justatheory joined #perl6
19:46 fglock the plan is to expand rules and tokens into plain-perl6, and don't touch the existing perl6 code
19:46 fglock just like mp6-regex does
19:47 TimToady basically, a better cheater. :)
19:48 fglock does EXPR assumes $_ := string-being-parsed ?
19:49 TimToady yes, currently
19:50 fglock and current position is $_.pos
19:54 fglock MiniPerl6::Grammar takes almost 20s to load in pugs; I'll try precompiling to yaml
19:54 TimToady which is currently not implemented, I think
19:56 ashleyb joined #perl6
19:56 fglock MiniPerl6 will need to declare it's own $/, because pugs $/ is read-only
19:59 fglock TimToady: is this the correct way to create a P6opaque?  P6opaque.new( ... )
20:00 TimToady P6opaque is not a type really.  it's a layout
20:00 TimToady but that's probably okay for now
20:01 fglock I'm trying to create objects from scratch, for 6-in-6
20:01 TimToady maybe it's just a function
20:01 fglock P6opaque.new( ... , class => ^Int, dispatcher => $default_dispatcher )
20:02 fglock macro?
20:02 TimToady could well be
20:03 fglock ok
20:03 TimToady it's just a "don't look behind this curtain" abstraction
20:03 TimToady so a macro would certainly do for now
20:04 TimToady long term this will have to be negotiated with the MOifiers
20:04 TimToady who are in charge of the Modus Operandi
20:04 benny joined #perl6
20:06 TimToady btw, $/ looks writable in my pugs
20:07 TimToady biab &
20:08 fglock I can't find out how to set a named capture
20:11 fglock I didn't understand what <sym> does in STD
20:11 TimToady basically, sets up a $+sym context var
20:12 TimToady two uses:
20:12 veritos joined #perl6
20:12 TimToady can match against <sym> without repeating
20:12 TimToady and when the eventual P6 routine is written, can be used for the name of the operator
20:12 TimToady so prefix:sym<+> ends up producing prefix:<+>
20:13 TimToady but the rule has a different name so we don't confuse them
20:13 TimToady otherwise we wouldn't know whether prefix:<+> meant the current + operator or the rule to parse it
20:14 fglock ok
20:14 TimToady and within the grammar it would be ambiguous, even if the user doesn't see the ambiguity
20:14 TimToady I suppose Match objects are immutable
20:15 TimToady we need a mutable CurrentMatchState that ends up snapshotted into an immutable Match result somehow, I guess
20:15 fglock yes; $/ itself is mutable
20:17 fglock btw, I need help with feather svk
20:18 TimToady someone will have to help with that, I'm svk-ignorant.
20:18 TimToady biab, really &
20:18 fglock thanks! have a nice weekend
20:19 pmurias left #perl6
20:25 veritos fglock: try 'svk help intro'
20:25 veritos you can also (iirc) use it exactly like svn
20:25 [particle] there's also #svk
20:26 fglock yep - I'm loggin in there
20:27 fglock the problem is: "(in cleanup) Svndiff data ends unexpectedly: Unexpected end of svndiff input"
20:31 kolibrie my feather svk is stuck at r15257 with the same error
20:31 kolibrie (has been for months)
20:31 [particle] aha, maybe that's why evalbot is gone, too
20:31 kolibrie but it would be nice to get it working again
20:32 [particle] can you just update to head, without getting all the past revisions?
20:33 kolibrie I have no idea (and isn't that a bad idea?)
20:33 fglock [particle]: do you know how to do that? I can try
20:33 [particle] i don't know svk
20:33 [particle] try svk help pull
20:34 veritos [particle]: most commands are svn-compatible
20:34 [particle] yes, but this one isn't
20:34 [particle] it seems svk is trying to sync with svn
20:34 [particle] by updating each revision in order
20:35 [particle] but there's a busted revision in svn mucking up the sync
20:35 veritos oh, i see.
20:35 [particle] at least, that's what it seems like to me.
20:37 [particle] maybe it's svk sync -s WORKINGREV
20:38 veritos why's feather being so slow now anyway?
20:38 [particle] maybe somebody's not nice
20:42 fglock "svk up -r 16140" works
20:42 [particle] ah, yay
20:43 [particle] funny, that one *is* svn-compatible :)
20:43 veritos it takes me like 30s to start a new screen, and one of my consoles is frozen
20:44 kolibrie fglock: does it get all the revisions in between, or just skips to that revision?
20:44 fglock it seems to be skipping
20:46 veritos if you're on feather, isn't offline work kind of pointless? if your connection's down you won't be logging on anyway.
20:46 TimToady looks like the load average on feather is about 10
20:47 TimToady several trac.cgi processes running in parallel
20:49 fglock veritos: I work offline, then I need to upload to feather in order to commit
20:49 TimToady maybe some bot is tickling trac.cgi?
20:49 veritos fglock: you have an excuse.
20:49 veritos fglock: can you not commit from your home pc?
20:49 fglock veritos: macbook -> computer-with-a-modem -> feather -> svn :P
20:50 veritos ah.
20:50 veritos textmate?
20:50 fglock the macbook doesn't have a modem, and my neighbours use wep :)
20:51 fglock for editing? I'm finally getting used to vim
20:59 TimToady heh, looks like both googlebot and msnbot are grilling feather
21:02 TimToady looks like googlebot is downloading changesets from trac...
21:04 TimToady so is msnbot, looks like
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21:04 TimToady commuting &
21:06 cj commuting--
21:10 kolibrie short commutes aren't too bad
21:10 * kolibrie does his on a recumbent bicycle and finds them quite enjoyable
21:13 fglock kolibrie: nice - I used to commute by bicycle year ago; now it's 30min by car
21:13 fglock years
21:14 kolibrie I did the car thing, but didn't find it to my liking
21:14 cj kolibrie: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&amp;hl=en&amp;saddr=2225+Walnut+St,+Everett,+WA+98201&amp;daddr=701+5th+Ave,+Seattle,+WA+98104&amp;sll=37.0625,-95.677068&amp;sspn=46.409192,82.265625&amp;layer=&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;z=10&amp;om=1
21:14 lambdabot Title: Google Maps, http://tinyurl.com/27ytod
21:15 kolibrie cj: that does not look like a nice commute
21:16 cj kolibrie: there's a train that travels along the water.  It's better than the drive, but still sucks up the day
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21:28 fglock &
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22:06 TimToady well, as it happens, I walk to work when I commute...
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23:33 Eidolos walking to work is great. used to live across the street from my current place of employment
23:40 davem joined #perl6
23:58 avar biking++

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