Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:09 TimToady across the street from my place of employment is the Googleplex, but I don't live there
00:10 TimToady I live on the other side of the computer history museum.  seems appropriate somehow...
00:14 DarkWolf84 ?eval say "hello"
00:14 DarkWolf84 no responce
00:15 Patterner hello
00:15 Tene DarkWolf84: evalbot isn't online
00:16 DarkWolf84 I see
00:16 DarkWolf84 why it's not online
00:17 Tene problems on feather of some unspecified nature
00:17 DarkWolf84 the server
00:17 DarkWolf84 today is server down day
00:17 Tene Yes.  I can bring an evalbot in for you if you need it for something.
00:17 DarkWolf84 :)
00:18 DarkWolf84 no
00:18 DarkWolf84 not actually
00:18 Tene 'kay
00:18 avar Tene: please bring one in:)
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00:19 DarkWolf84 btw I think that I can bring one too coz have the source
00:20 TimToady 4
00:21 TimToady hmm, unlucky number...
00:21 DarkWolf84 sonds like death in japanice
00:22 DarkWolf84 :)
00:27 TimToady hmm, with the latest change, my Dog $fido .= { :name<Fido> } could mean to make a Dog lazily, I suppose
00:31 pasteling "tene" at 65.89.234.66 pasted "problems running evalbot" (7 lines, 491B) at http://sial.org/pbot/24568
00:33 DarkWolf84 bug?
00:34 Tene Looks like pugs is trying to parse strict.pm somehow
00:34 Tene perl5's strict.pm, that is
00:35 TimToady do you pull in strict with an env var somehow?
00:35 Tene This should be a pretty standard perl setup.  I haven't done anything tricky that I'm aware of.
00:36 Tene nothing perl-related in my env.
00:38 Tene Hmm.  Looks like 'make install' has screwed up my perl installation somehow.  Trying to use any modules in perl5 results in death trying to locate v6.pm.
00:38 TimToady in any case strict.pm starts with "package" so pugs ought to treat it as perl 5 code...
00:40 TimToady I realize it's a lame answer over the long term, but most of us never do make install
00:40 Tene It's always worked fine on my other boxes, so I never thought anything of it.
00:40 * Tene shrugs.
00:41 TimToady it's one of those things like GC bugs, it doesn't tend to bite you till after the damage is done.
00:41 Tene Yeah.
00:42 DarkWolf84 like let and temp types
00:44 TimToady what are let and temp types?
00:44 TimToady let and temp are just functions on an lvalue, not declarations...
00:44 DarkWolf84 temporary and hypothetic vars
00:46 DarkWolf84 but when i try to use let i get no such subroutine
00:46 TimToady the type of such a variable is orthogonal to let or temp
00:46 TimToady that's because it's not implemented in pugs, I think
00:46 TimToady all the temp and let tests in the smokes fail
00:46 DarkWolf84 some people reported that last versions did it
00:47 TimToady hmm, but probably by parsing as declarations, which was bogus
00:47 Tene Looks like a bunch of stuff installed in /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/ on this box instead of /usr/lib/perl6/site_perl/ like on my other boxes.
00:49 DarkWolf84 not last, previous versions
00:50 DarkWolf84 I'm getting sleep and type stupid things
00:52 DarkWolf84 maybe I have to go to bed
00:52 geoffb Interesting how "getting sleep" and "getting sleepy" mean such different things
00:53 DarkWolf84 sry my english is bad
00:55 avar My english is oh so naughty
00:56 DarkWolf84 many english will laugh when i write such things
00:57 DarkWolf84 and when I'm tired the joke is x2
00:59 DarkWolf84 good night to all
00:59 pasteling "evalbot6_r16142" at 65.89.234.66 pasted "Pugs build failure" (407 lines, 25.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24571
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00:59 Tene ?eval "hi"
00:59 evalbot6_r16142 "hi"
01:00 Tene There you go.
01:00 DarkWolf84 ?eval say "hello"
01:00 evalbot6_r16142 OUTPUT[hello␤] Bool::True
01:00 DarkWolf84 workin
01:00 DarkWolf84 what was the problem
01:01 Tene Hmm?
01:01 Tene I'm running that on one of my boxes.  I hav eno idea what's going on with feather.  I don't even have an acconut on feather.
01:01 DarkWolf84 me too
01:02 * DarkWolf84 is away: going to bed
01:02 Tene Acconut?  I've never tried that kind of nut.
01:03 allbery_b like a betel nut, only more so?
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01:10 Tene I'm presuming the defaults on svnbot.pl are what's preferred...
01:36 [particle] tene: #perl6 likes defaults, #parrot likes true true
01:39 Tene Hmm.  Will evalbot and svnbot conflict when both being run on the same svn checkout?
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05:47 dduncan question ... if I'm reading the latest synopsis updates right, it seems that one can define their own .defined method for their class, and so if I had a class with a protoobject defined, I could make it that .defined always returns true on $foo just after declaring my Bar $foo;
05:47 dduncan which is useful if Bar is a class for values and it has no concept of undefinedness
05:48 dduncan but does have a default defined value
05:48 dduncan then users doing .defined tests, the right thing will still happen
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05:48 Tene http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/04/true_pathology_a_multilingual.php
05:48 lambdabot Title: Good Math, Bad Math : True Pathology: A Multilingual Quine, http://tinyurl.com/23ehx8
05:58 anothersvnbot r16143 | kudra++ | Tried to clarify
05:58 anothersvnbot r16144 | kudra++ | I mention this script in the tutorial
06:03 dduncan hey, the bot is back!
06:05 Tene No, I'm running one until someone brings back the bot on feather.
06:05 pasteling "evalbot6_r16143" at 65.89.234.66 pasted "Pugs build failure" (326 lines, 19.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24572
06:06 Tene I was bringing in an evalbot for someone and I figured I could bring in an svnbot while I was doing it.
06:08 Tene I'm wondering if they'll interfere with each other when both running from the same repository, but I haven't bothered checking.
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06:37 gaal Tene: there's a 7-way polyglot floating about
06:37 gaal it's not a quine, though :)
06:38 gaal dated 1991-02-15
06:41 gaal Oh, my. It's grown to eight languages now, and is linked to from that page.
06:55 dduncan what is the url for that one specifically?
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09:06 gaal @tell dduncan the 8-way polyglot is at http://ideology.com.au/polyglot/ .
09:06 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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09:57 VanilleBert a bit OT cause it's perl 5: http://bash.org/?757207
09:57 lambdabot Title: QDB: Quote #757207
10:00 ayrnieu no, it isn't.
10:00 VanilleBert no?
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10:15 ayrnieu yes: no.
10:28 Eidolos it actually is valid Perl 5 (thanks to the very early #), though I didn't realize @$ was a valid identifier
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12:16 orangeacme hi there could someone help me with this "make" error under feisty and latest svn: http://paste.husk.org/8197 ?
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12:38 integral orangeacme: Did you install libghc6-network-dev?
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14:42 masak what's been written in the way of XML parsers and XPath engines in Perl6? does anyone know if there's such code in the pugs repository
14:42 masak I took a quick look in ext/ but didn't find anything
14:42 masak I think that Perl6 and XPath would be an especially sweet match
14:44 masak oh, and Perl6 grammar capabilities match sweetly with XML validation, too
14:48 integral err, why not just embed libxslt/libxml like the perl5 modules?  They both support callbacks to perl code for XPath functions and things
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14:51 masak integral: yes, that sounds like a good idea. so my question becomes, has anyone done this? embedded libxslt and provided an attractive Perl6 API?
14:52 integral afaik we don't have an implementation of a Perl6->C FFI/XS/NCI thing yet, so no
14:52 integral What would be nice for a NCI (I guess) would be a p6 grammar for parsing C header files
14:54 masak hmm
14:54 masak so, a subset of C syntax?
14:55 integral sure
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14:57 masak is that subset well-documented and easy to comprehend, or would this also require thinking long and hard about what exactly one might come upon in a C header file?
14:57 * masak doesn't really have firm experience in C
14:59 integral TBH I'd just implement a reasonably complete C grammar.  It doesn't seem to be that big judging by small compilers like TCC
15:00 masak integral: ah, ok
15:03 ayrnieu C header files are not a separate language.  They are simply C, with contents by convention.
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15:10 masak ayrnieu: right. however, maybe a full C grammar isn't necessary if we're only interested in sub signatures or some such
15:10 masak I guess being able to parse C code and build an AST out of it in Perl6 would be cool enough
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15:38 pmurias masak: #define's would problematic
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15:43 masak pmurias: oh yes -- essentially require two-pass parsing, I guess
15:43 integral err, you can't parse C without implementing CPP
15:45 masak true
15:51 pmurias #define say(format,arg) printf(format # "\n",arg)
15:51 pmurias would be hard to make bindings to
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15:58 masak pmurias: well, is it just very difficult or theoretically impossible? in the former case, maybe do the easy things first and then try the difficult ones; inte the latter, maybe refrain from even trying
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17:12 pmurias masak: i'm currently porting my ajax app to IE, which is theoretically impossible :)
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18:26 masak pmurias: yes, doing theoretically impossible things is à la mode over here -- audrey mentions it as a goal of pugs to unite several theoretically un-unitable concepts... still, when I try my hands on the theoretically impossible, I just get frustrated -- but YMMV, of course.
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18:49 veritos it's taking like half an hour to run perl 5 ./Configure
18:51 rindolf veritos: for what?
18:51 rindolf veritos: for Parrot?
18:51 veritos rindolf: i want to work with v6, and the modules aren't installed
18:52 veritos it takes like 20s to run a shell
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19:41 matsi help
19:41 * geoffb throws matsi a life ring
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20:57 dduncan TimToady, your connection seems all wonky, disconnecting and reconnecting every couple of minutes.
20:57 lambdabot dduncan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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21:25 moritz @tell Tene you can fix evalbot problem by exporting PERL6LIB env variable and set it blib6/lib/ of the pugs repository
21:25 lambdabot Consider it noted.
21:25 moritz @eval 1
21:25 moritz ?eval 1
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21:27 moritz @tell Tene seems like you figured it out yourself... was just backlogging and thought I could help ;)
21:27 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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22:27 TimToady hmm, ilbot says "TimToady changed the nick to TimToady_" but it's the other way around.
22:27 TimToady moritz: see above
22:29 OwlEye TimToady, you are a man with a lot of experience with internet societies. and you also did a lot for the open source community as a whole. may i ask you one private question?
22:31 OwlEye TimToady, a place like Freenode needs staff members that take care that the network is operationsal. what would you say if some of these people mix private desires with duty, so that unloved people are treated with different policies than others?
22:31 OwlEye s/operationsal/operational/
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22:34 TimToady I think that no human society this side of heaven will be composed of perfect people.
22:35 TimToady and even the perfect people tend to get crucified :)
22:36 OwlEye that leaves not much hope for sensible and emotional people
22:36 * OwlEye curls up in a blanket
22:38 TimToady those concepts are orthogonal to perfection, I suspect
22:38 TimToady (assuming you mean "sensible" in the old sense of the word)
22:39 OwlEye perfection would aim to be more like a machine?
22:40 TimToady No, I mean more in the sense of people who get crucified.
22:41 TimToady such people are known to get emotional occasionally, and that's okay
22:42 TimToady Loving unlovable poeple is not guaranteed to always be enjoyable.
22:44 TimToady anyone know why the smoker is misreporting elapsed times?  I thought maybe it was because my YAML::Syck was old, but after upgrading it still reports 0.45 min when it took 27.73 minutes according to the header.
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22:48 TimToady I suspect it thinks a minute is 3600 seconds long.
22:50 avar A common misconception:)
22:51 TimToady hmm, no, that would come out to 0.46 rather than 0.45...
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23:04 TimToady ah, it's pulling the duration out of the html file, and that recently changed to reporting in minutes rather than seconds...
23:05 TimToady and the 0.45 instead of 0.46 is caused by scanning 27.73 minutes for \d+
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23:07 SirMoo TimToady: saw the k-line on OwlEye?
23:07 SirMoo anymore questions?
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23:30 pasteling "evalbot6_r16145" at 65.89.234.66 pasted "Pugs build failure" (381 lines, 22.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24584
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23:46 TimToady I checked in a patch to smokeserv-server.pl that should handle the change in duration format, but the smoke server will still be offby60 until it svnups.
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