Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-05-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:12 svnbot6 r16210 | rhr++ | [Date.pm] use named args to BUILD
01:14 rhr when I run ext/DateTime/t/basic.t there's now a 50/50 chance that all test pass, which is an improvement!
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03:54 svnbot6 r16212 | agentz++ | PCR - added some more tests and a smartlink for sigspace
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04:40 agentzh <'...'> and <"..."> are no longer valid according to S05?
04:40 lambdabot agentzh: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
04:40 agentzh @messages
04:40 lambdabot unobe said 9h 52m 57s ago: the current.build.yml should now show good paths to install pugs into.
04:40 agentzh unobe: nice
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04:43 TimToady agentzh: yes, they're now just '...' and "..."
04:43 agentzh TimToady: thanks :)
04:44 agentzh PCR needs some updates.
04:44 TimToady though PCR already fixed those, though maybe <> forms were going through a deprecation cycle...
04:44 TimToady *thought
04:45 agentzh oh
04:45 TimToady ?eval $_ = '$x'; / '$x' /
04:45 evalbot_r16212 changed the nick to evalbot_r16189
04:45 evalbot_r16212 Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::True, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 2, ␤  str => "$x", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
04:45 TimToady ?eval $_ = '$x'; / <'$x'> /
04:46 evalbot_r16212 *** Cannot parse regex:  <'$x'> ␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
04:46 agentzh sorry, i was looking a very old version of PCR. ;)
04:46 agentzh *looking at
04:46 TimToady yeah, I think it's fixed
04:46 agentzh cool :)
05:12 rindolf Hi agentzh
05:12 agentzh rindolf: hi
05:13 agentzh fglock: i wonder if you would like to give Smart::Comments a short (for debugging) :)
05:13 rindolf agentzh: what's up?
05:14 agentzh rindolf: adding smartlinks to PCR's test suite.
05:14 agentzh (and also polishing the tests themselves)
05:14 rindolf agentzh: what is PCR?
05:14 agentzh Pugs::Compiler::Rule
05:14 rindolf agentzh: oh.
05:14 agentzh under perl5/
05:15 rindolf agentzh: what is the connectivity at your place?
05:16 agentzh web connectivity?
05:17 rindolf agentzh: no, Inet connectivity.
05:17 rindolf agentzh: upstream/downstream
05:18 REPLeffect must be about 100baud :-)
05:19 agentzh 100 MB, not sure.
05:19 rindolf agentzh: 100 MB per-second?
05:19 rindolf Mega-bytes, Mega-bits?
05:20 agentzh bits
05:32 rindolf agentzh: OK.
05:33 rindolf agentzh: and how much upstream do you have?
05:34 agentzh no idea
05:40 svnbot6 r16213 | agentz++ | PCR - more smartlinks for 09-ratchet.t (we now have 28 working links :))
05:40 dduncan agentz, about your r16200
05:41 agentzh ?
05:41 dduncan agentzh, [smartlinks.pl]
05:41 dduncan * used Perl6::Perldoc::To::Xhtml's full-doc feature
05:41 dduncan * now we don't set UTF-8 for S26 since it's in Latin-1
05:41 dduncan why don't we just resave S26 as UTF-8 instead, which is what all files should be standardized as?
05:42 agentzh well, S26 is already in UTF-8.
05:42 dduncan so what did your comment mean?
05:42 agentzh but Perl6::Perldoc converts that to Latin-1, it seems.
05:42 agentzh i'm not sure.
05:42 agentzh that comment is incorrect.
05:42 dduncan if so, then Perl6::Perldoc needs fixing
05:42 agentzh dduncan: agreed
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05:43 agentzh there is a bug entry in Perl6::Perldoc's POD: "The parser does not assume a default encoding of UTF-8 (as per the specification in Synopsis 26)."
05:44 dduncan okay
05:56 agentzh ?eval $_ = 'a'; / $<cap> := (<alpha>) /
05:56 evalbot_r16213 changed the nick to evalbot_r16212
05:56 evalbot_r16213 *** Cannot parse regex:  $<cap> := (<alpha>) ␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
05:57 agentzh ?eval $_ = ' '; / $<cap> := (<ws>) /
05:57 evalbot_r16213 *** Cannot parse regex:  $<cap> := (<ws>) ␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
05:58 agentzh weird. it works on my machine.
06:04 agentzh is there any difference between /$<a> := <b>/ and /$<a> := (<b>)/ ?
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06:07 agentzh i'd expect $/<a><b> to return something in the latter case.
06:09 agentzh but PCR doesn't work that way.
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06:31 svnbot6 r16214 | agentz++ | PCR - 09-ratchet.t - more tests for capture aliases and we have 34 smartlinks there now
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06:55 agentzh fglock: it seems S05 does not state that <ident> and <alpha> are builtin subrules although S05 makes heavy use of them.
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07:18 agentzh ?eval 'abc' ~~ /ab|abc/
07:18 evalbot_r16214 changed the nick to evalbot_r16213
07:18 evalbot_r16214 Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::True, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 2, ␤  str => "ab", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
07:18 agentzh bug?
07:19 agentzh | is with longest-token semantics, no?
07:22 moritz agentzh: I'd suppose so...
07:22 agentzh :)
07:22 moritz from => 0, to => 2 looks as if 'abc' is matched, isn't it?
07:22 lumi Isn't (from => 0, to => 2) 3 long?
07:22 moritz lumi: exactly
07:23 agentzh interesting
07:23 lumi What engine is that?
07:23 agentzh PCR
07:23 moritz ?eval 'a' ~~ m/a/
07:23 evalbot_r16214 Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::True, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 1, ␤  str => "a", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
07:23 lumi I guess "to" means "just before"
07:24 agentzh *nod*
07:25 lumi So longest-token | is not implemented
07:25 lumi ?eval 'abc' ~~ /ab||abc/ # should be the other variant, right?
07:25 evalbot_r16214 Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::True, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 2, ␤  str => "ab", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
07:25 agentzh yup
07:28 svnbot6 r16215 | agentz++ | PCR - more tests and more smartlinks (42 links now)
07:29 moritz ?eval ('abc' ~~ /abc | ab /).str
07:29 evalbot_r16214 Error: No such method in class Match: &str
07:29 agentzh fglock: failing tests are all marked as TODOs so that it's easier to do regression. ;)
07:29 moritz ?eval ~ ('abc' ~~ /abc | ab /)
07:29 evalbot_r16214 "abc"
07:29 lumi ?eval my %foo = ('ab' => 1, 'abc' => 2); 'abc' ~~ /%foo/
07:30 evalbot_r16214 *** Cannot parse regex: %foo␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
07:30 moritz agentzh++ # test cases and smartlinks
07:30 lumi Not like that, I guess
07:30 agentzh hmm, evalbot is using PGE?
07:31 agentzh %foo works in PCR
07:31 lumi I have no idea how to check
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07:35 agentzh http://perlcabal.org/agent/S05  # linked with PCR's test suite
07:35 lambdabot Title: S05
07:35 agentzh apparently PCR need more test cases and more links. :)
07:35 agentzh *needs
07:35 agentzh fglock: maybe you'll find it interesting or even helpful :)
07:36 agentzh i'd reuse pugs' smoking mechanism to generate smoke.yml from PCR's test suite and then use it to mark the snippets in S05.
07:37 agentzh Hmm, 'make smoke' and 'make smartlink' can even be integrated into Module::Install as development tools (author-side) :)
07:37 agentzh not sure if audreyt will like the idea.
07:41 agentzh gotta rush back to the campus &
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10:57 avar @tell dvergin in  S28draft.pod you say "These variables are all read-only" about $0, $1, $2. This needs to mention :rw apperently
10:57 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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11:45 svnbot6 r16216 | fglock++ | [PCR] - added non-greedy quantifier to "ratchet" emitter
11:51 fglock agentzh++  # more tests
11:59 fglock agentzh: re %foo - I think it's a problem in the haskel/perl5 bridge; this works:
11:59 fglock perl -Ilib -e 'use v6-alpha' - ' my %foo = (ab => 1, abc => 1); "abc" ~~ /%foo/; say $/.perl '
11:59 fglock haskell
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12:15 fglock hmm - PCR hash-value semantics needs an update
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13:39 fglock TimToady: re STD - do you mean { ($<start>,$<stop>) = $.findbrack() } instead of <?{ ($<start>,$<stop>) = $.findbrack() }> ?
13:40 fglock <{...}> would be used if it returned a regex, right?
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14:19 svnbot6 r16217 | fglock++ | [v6.pm] - added preprocess-STD.pl
14:20 moritz fglock: is preprocess-STD.pl the v6.pm equivalent to cheat.pl?
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14:28 svnbot6 r16218 | andara++ | [runpugs]
14:28 svnbot6 r16218 | andara++ | - Session.pm: now with Moose
14:28 svnbot6 r16218 | andara++ | - Session startup handling now more robust
14:28 svnbot6 r16218 | andara++ | - Repl.pm: a very simple mini-REPL for testing
14:30 fglock moritz: yes; it replaces the {*} blocks with the actual code
14:31 PerlJam fglock: in which language?
14:31 moritz p5
14:31 fglock hmm - it could be written in p6
14:31 PerlJam It seems like it's taking forever to start using p6 to parse p6
14:32 fglock PerlJam: why? v6.pm has a lot of p6 code
14:33 PerlJam fglock: I know, it just seems like we're stuck in the hell of having most of the pieces needed for a full-fledged perl6, but not enough momentum to actually produce and release a full-fledged perl6  (i.e., something that one could announce to the world)
14:35 PerlJam of course, my grousing about it isn't helping anything either
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14:40 avar building a cpan-installable command-line utility from the kp6/mp6 stuff would help IMO, even if the subset it parses/runs is very minimal
14:41 fglock avar: how about a v6.pm based one?
14:41 avar would work too
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14:48 PerlJam fglock: Did you apply for a TPF grant yet?  :-)
14:48 fglock re 'produce and release a full-fledged perl6', I agree it's a momentum problem, rather than a purely technical problem
14:48 fglock PerlJam: no
14:49 fglock back in ~2h &
14:50 PerlJam fglock: Well, consider that I at least think you should get paid for the cool work you do (have done) and TPF seems a likely source of funds.
14:51 avar the issue with p6 is not purely a lack of runtime problem, there are no p6 modules on cpan yet for instance, which sucks;/
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15:01 veritos hey...new idea. use yacc or something to generate perl code from c.
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15:42 cj_ what is this "golf" that I hear so much about?
15:43 avar ?eval [~] <g o l f>
15:43 evalbot_r16218 changed the nick to evalbot_r16214
15:43 evalbot_r16218 "golf"
15:46 svnbot6 r16219 | andara++ | [runpugs]
15:46 svnbot6 r16219 | andara++ |     -Preparing to make new version go live
15:46 svnbot6 r16219 | andara++ |      No changes to front-end, more stable back-end
15:46 svnbot6 r16219 | andara++ |     -Goal for next iteration is to port back-end to Perl 6
15:46 svnbot6 r16219 | andara++ |      Help welcome!
15:47 avar andara: back end for what?
15:47 andara avar: runpugs consists of a server "back-end" and a client "front-end"
15:48 wolverian cj_, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl#Perl_golf
15:49 cj_ wolverian: I play that game!
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16:21 frederico Hi, I tried to install v6-alpha via cpan but I got recursive dependence with Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::Perl5 , but in source dir I did make install and everything worked.
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16:45 riffraff hi
16:45 cjeris left #perl6
16:47 veritos hmm...this is fun. making a man page for myself.
16:48 TimToady do you need to be documented? :)
16:49 TimToady myself, I just try to have an intuitive interface.  :)
16:50 veritos TimToady: ok. am i section 1 or what?
16:50 veritos http://feather.perl6.nl/~karhu/ for more info.
16:50 lambdabot Title: NAME
16:50 TimToady do you call yourself from shell scripts?
16:51 veritos TimToady: no, D\ Koenig is too hard to type.
16:51 [particle] veritos: don't forget to document your appendix
16:51 veritos [particle]: heh.
16:51 TimToady I don't want your colon
16:51 riffraff question: I wont to do an iteration like: for foo($x) { for foo($x) {bar($_} }
16:51 * [particle] has a semicolon
16:52 riffraff is there a shortcut? I can't use two statement modifiers one after the other, sadly
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16:52 veritos riffraff: try closing the paren in bar($_
16:52 riffraff lol
16:53 [particle] for foo($x) {.bar for foo($x) }
16:53 TimToady ?eval for (1..2) X ('a','b') -> $a, $b { say $a,$b }
16:53 evalbot_r16219 changed the nick to evalbot_r16218
16:53 evalbot_r16219 OUTPUT[1a1b␤2a2b␤] undef
16:54 TimToady well, it's not quite right yet, should autoflatten
16:55 riffraff [particle], yep, thought of that, still looks perfectible :)
16:56 TimToady so when you use $_, are you expecting to get only the inner loop var?
16:58 riffraff wow, .bar for foo($x) X foo($_) seem to work
16:59 riffraff TimToady, not really, I was just convinced I could not use $_ in the cross product in the beginning of the loop
17:00 TimToady well, X is there to do cross products, except it's supposed to flatten by default.  but maybe the default is wrong in this case...
17:00 [particle] for foo($x) X foo($_) ?? not $x?
17:00 PerlJam [particle]: that looks like a syntax error to me.
17:00 [particle] meetoo
17:00 [particle] well, at least a bug.
17:01 [particle] oh, wait.
17:01 [particle] i mean, should the $_ be $x
17:01 [particle] ?? not $x? is surely a syntax error, if it's perl :)
17:02 [particle] does X set $_ for you?
17:02 PerlJam That would be surprising to me.
17:02 riffraff interesting,. if I change my code from the for to the cross operator, it sucks so much CPU that it gets killed
17:03 avar veritos: your ~ page is funny:)
17:03 da_man changed the nick to cj_
17:03 riffraff and my keybioard layout changed, wow
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17:06 fglock oops - v6.pm Makefile.pl -> requires('Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::Perl5' => '0'); ???
17:07 fglock this will take some time to fix; v6.pm depends on a new release of Sub::Multi
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17:08 zafoeta hi guys
17:08 PerlJam hello
17:08 zafoeta i am new in this group
17:08 zafoeta just read some stuff about pugs
17:08 zafoeta i am programming myself in perl5 currently
17:09 zafoeta and wanted to get involved in pugs
17:10 fglock re v6.pm Makefile.PL - it was already fixed; needs a release
17:11 frederico joined #perl6
17:11 zafoeta anybody there?
17:11 TimToady nobody but us chickens...
17:12 PerlJam zafoeta: we're here ... ish
17:12 TimToady what you you like to do with pugs?
17:12 TimToady and what's your background?
17:12 zafoeta i am computer science student and working in a finance company
17:13 zafoeta having been doing some perl in the last 3 years, but i would not call myself a huge perl hacker
17:13 zafoeta i know how to program with it, though
17:13 TimToady would you like a commit bit to pugs?
17:14 zafoeta also, i like functional languages, and i am working at the moment in a project which involves  functional languages, but have onle basics in haskell
17:14 zafoeta yes
17:14 zafoeta that is my intention
17:14 TimToady msg me your email and I'll get one sent
17:14 zafoeta helping in writing some code, and learning more haskell
17:14 zafoeta i subscribed to the mailing list
17:15 TimToady most of the real work happens here
17:15 PerlJam zafoeta: do you know how to use subversion?  
17:15 zafoeta yes
17:15 zafoeta using it at work
17:16 riffraff sorry, could someone check if he can do "my %s = {'a'=>1}" in interactive pugs ?
17:16 riffraff it seem it parser correctly in a file but I get a sttrange error in the repl
17:16 zafoeta i know some good basics, will learn more if necessary
17:16 PerlJam great!  Once you've got a commit bit, you can start hacking on pugs one way or another.
17:16 zafoeta :)
17:16 TimToady what's your emali address
17:16 TimToady *email
17:16 zafoeta sounds quite good and straight forward
17:16 zafoeta i think i sent it to  u privately
17:17 TimToady didn't get here, are you registered?
17:17 zafoeta nope
17:17 zafoeta im actually never in irc
17:17 TimToady freenode requires reg to /mst
17:17 zafoeta ok, wait then
17:17 TimToady to /msg rather
17:17 TimToady or just mail to larry@wall.org
17:18 zafoeta wow, i am now taling to larry wall??
17:18 zafoeta :)
17:18 TimToady I'll never tell...
17:18 zafoeta *honoured*
17:18 PerlJam zafoeta: no, it's Mr. Incog  Nito
17:19 TimToady I usually just answer to "Hey, you!"
17:19 zafoeta good
17:19 zafoeta anyway, sent u the address
17:20 [M]erk joined #perl6
17:22 TimToady commitbit is thinking about you, but being slow...
17:23 TimToady okay, you should have email now
17:23 veritos Hey, you! Perl's supposed to be intuitive, and it has a manpage
17:24 TimToady rofl
17:24 TimToady obviously Perl 6 won't need a manpage.  :)
17:25 veritos of course, it has p6doc
17:25 veritos which is oddly enough written in perl 5
17:25 fglock TimToady: I've got a problem with STD - http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl​?channel=perl6;date=2007-05-07#id_l183
17:25 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, http://tinyurl.com/2yx3e8
17:26 TimToady they've got drugs for that...
17:26 fglock :)
17:27 veritos ?eval my %s = a => 1; print %s
17:27 evalbot_r16219 OUTPUT[a1] Bool::True
17:27 TimToady fglock: no, that's intentional.  That's an assertion being used as a bare block to be invisible to longest-token processing
17:28 TimToady ordinarily bare {...} limits your longest token
17:28 zafoeta k, im back
17:28 zafoeta just checking out the code
17:28 TimToady it's customary to add yourself to AUTHORS as your first checkin to make sure it works right.
17:28 TimToady welcome aboard!
17:29 zafoeta ok.
17:29 zafoeta will to that.
17:29 zafoeta do you normally do check ins on the whole directory or only on single files?
17:29 TimToady either way is fine
17:29 zafoeta good
17:30 riffraff mah
17:30 riffraff (onomatopeic sound of not understanding life, universe and everything)
17:30 veritos zafoeta: we have few rules here. just don't destroy it beyond repair.
17:30 veritos forgiveness > permission
17:30 TimToady if you've done a bunch of changes across directories, just checkin at the top
17:30 zafoeta ok
17:30 zafoeta :) sounds all good.
17:30 fglock TimToady: oops - I confused it with a non-capturing <{...}>
17:31 TimToady yeah, the ? is not entirely orthogonal in this case
17:31 TimToady bugs me a little
17:32 TimToady but even if you've only changed one file, svn at the top is still pretty fast in my experience
17:32 fglock how about <??{..}> - as in ?? !!
17:32 TimToady so I mostly only do specific checkins when I know there's other stuff out there that I don't want to checkin yet (or are not sure)
17:32 veritos fglock: that's nice. and then <??{foo} bar !! baz>
17:33 TimToady it's starting to look a little too much like perl 5...
17:33 veritos TimToady: with (?(foo)bar|baz)? at least the ?? !! one wasn't picked at random
17:34 TimToady but <?{...}> isn't a conditional, it's just an assertion
17:34 fglock <true {...}>
17:35 zafoeta so, is this actuallly a group for perl6 in general or more for pugs?
17:35 PerlJam zafoeta: noth
17:35 PerlJam er, both
17:35 zafoeta ok
17:35 TimToady we always answer "yes", except when we answer "no"
17:35 zafoeta and parrot as well, i suppose
17:35 PerlJam no, #parrot is for that.
17:35 TimToady parrot happens more on the mailing list
17:35 TimToady and #parrot
17:35 TimToady and #parrotsketch
17:36 zafoeta ok
17:36 cj TimToady: I hear that can get you in deep trouble with the security people :)
17:36 [particle] although i'm usually here for random parrot questions
17:36 TimToady but if you like functional programming, you probably want to hang out here more
17:36 cj TimToady: I think they prefer you to say no except where you say yes
17:36 PerlJam TimToady: Was that meant to be punny? :)
17:37 TimToady yes and no
17:37 zafoeta i wanna learn about haskell and perl in this project. that is why i chose pugs
17:37 veritos PerlJam: is 'hang' supposed to be a functional thing?
17:37 veritos foo = 1:foo; main = do { putStrLn foo }
17:37 TimToady hang is a word that expresses dependency
17:37 PerlJam veritos: sure!  It's solving the halting problem and that takes a while.
17:38 TimToady and in fact japanese basically uses the same word for the two concepts
17:38 TimToady (though spelled with different kanji)
17:39 TimToady zafoeta: what kind of computer are you running on?
17:39 zafoeta mac os x
17:39 zafoeta what do u prefer?
17:39 zafoeta have a linux as well
17:39 TimToady okay, we have some of those folks here to help
17:40 b_jonas_ joined #perl6
17:40 zafoeta good
17:40 zafoeta thanks:)
17:40 b_jonas changed the nick to b_jonas_
17:41 zafoeta just installed ghc yesterday btw
17:41 zafoeta anything else i need?
17:42 PerlJam zafoeta: the newer the ghc the better
17:42 TimToady 6.6 is the minimum currently
17:42 zafoeta than i need to update ...
17:42 zafoeta have 6.4.
17:43 TimToady 6.6 will be considerably faster too
17:43 offby1 _alarmingly_ faster.
17:43 cj gnu haskell compiler?
17:43 PerlJam offby1: you were alarmed?
17:44 TimToady zafoeta: how much memory do you have?
17:44 gnuvince cj: Glaskgow
17:44 PerlJam cj: glasgow
17:44 zafoeta 2 gb
17:44 TimToady that will suffice :)
17:44 zafoeta glasgow ghc, yes
17:44 TimToady any other mac folks on now?
17:45 cj ah
17:45 cj I don't think anybody else with names that start with 'g' should be able to create software.  It muddies the water :)
17:45 PerlJam cj: and in an interesting turn of events, GHC was bootstrapped using perl5 :-)
17:46 zafoeta so, maybe people should think staring about a merger, in the world of globalization ...
17:46 TimToady (audreyt uses mac, but is being heavily distracted by real life at the moment.)
17:46 cj PerlJam: ha.  everything is bootstrapped using perl5 - autotools require perl5 :)
17:46 [particle] sans is creating a perl security test: http://www.adtmag.com/article.aspx?id=20594
17:46 b_jonas cj: you mean like gnuplot?
17:46 lambdabot Title: Application Development Trends - Putting Coders' Security Chops to the Test
17:46 cj b_jonas: not following you
17:47 PerlJam TimToady: What's with all of you cabal people and your "real life" distractions?  :-)
17:47 b_jonas cj: gnuplot has nothing to do with the GNU project, it's just named that accidentally
17:47 cj b_jonas: oh noes!
17:48 zafoeta so, just commited revision 16220
17:48 PerlJam b_jonas: though, had they taken a little time and explored the net a bit, they would have surely not named it that.
17:48 zafoeta seems to work fine
17:48 svnbot6 r16220 | walter++ | Walter Pallestrong joined.
17:48 zafoeta yep
17:48 TimToady there you are
17:49 fred__ joined #perl6
17:49 cj "oh noes" invokes images of Andy's LJ icon...
17:49 cj http://www.livejournal.com​/allpics.bml?user=petdance
17:49 lambdabot Title: Userpics
17:49 zafoeta so ... where do i start of?
17:49 PerlJam zafoeta: what do you want to do?
17:49 PerlJam zafoeta: write tests?  Write docs? Write perl?  write haskell?
17:49 zafoeta i would say the latter 2
17:49 PerlJam (almost anything involves writing at some point)
17:49 TimToady some start by reading the Haskell, some start by reading the test files
17:49 TimToady or the examples files
17:50 TimToady if you haven't read the synopses, that would be a good place to start
17:50 PerlJam TimToady: as big as the Synopses have gotten, I occasionally wish for a cliff notes version  :)
17:51 b_jonas cj, perljam: http://www.gnuplot.info/faq/faq.​html#SECTION00032000000000000000
17:51 lambdabot Title: Gnuplot FAQ
17:52 PerlJam b_jonas: man were they foolish!  :)
17:53 ofer joined #perl6
17:53 _bernhard joined #perl6
17:55 zafoeta i am actually having a c++ exam tomorrow, but this intrigues me:)
17:55 cj b_jonas: cute :)
17:55 cj zafoeta: and well it should!
17:55 TimToady that's called "creative procrastination", and some of us are quite good at it
17:56 [particle] it's a continuation-based approach to learning
17:56 PerlJam heh
17:56 cj TimToady: I heard a bit on NPR that reminded me of you.  There was a guy who wrote a book about creative procrastination
17:58 b_jonas cj: is that not Paul Graham?
17:58 cj I forget the name of the program, but it's a quiz show, and the host wrote a book called "Innuendo and out the other"
17:58 cj b_jonas: he was English, so his name might have been Graham...
17:58 TimToady and ouch the other is more like
17:58 b_jonas cj: http://www.paulgraham.com/procrastination.html
17:58 svnbot6 r16221 | fglock++ | [PCR] - added a 'modifier' attribute to the 'closure' node
17:58 lambdabot Title: Good and Bad Procrastination
17:58 cj there we are... "Whad'Ya Know"
18:00 Psyche^ joined #perl6
18:00 PerlJam Michael Feldman
18:00 Patterner changed the nick to Psyche^
18:01 cj PerlJam: yeah, but he was the host, not the author
18:02 PerlJam http://www.amazon.com/Something-I-​Said-Innuendo-Other/dp/0299202704
18:02 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2g4szo
18:02 PerlJam not it?
18:02 cj PerlJam: that's Michael's book, the one on procrastination was a different author's
18:03 offby1 PerlJam: I sort of _was_ alarmed at how much faster ghc 6.6 was compared to 6.4 -- I'm not used to that kind of speedup, and initially I thought something was wrong -- perhaps instead of compiling all my files, it was rejecting them!
18:03 cj oh, TimToady... you feel like being a guinnea pig?
18:03 PerlJam Oh, I was just taking my cue from the title mentioned.
18:03 PerlJam offby1: Well, at least it was a good alarm  :)
18:04 TimToady nobody who has spent two months in a hospital ever feels like being a guinea pig again...
18:04 cj http://www.amazon.com/connect
18:04 lambdabot Title: Sign In
18:05 cj TimToady: it's the blog software I get paid to write.  I hear you've written a book or two and you don't use a mac ( which we don't support yet :( )
18:05 TimToady heh, it thinks I'm Heidi...
18:05 cj TimToady: you might be! :)
18:05 TimToady that would explain why she just came down with shingles...
18:06 SubStack joined #perl6
18:06 cj there's a "I'm not Heidi!" link at /
18:06 PerlJam As far as we know, you are Heidi
18:06 cj TimToady: TMI!!!
18:06 TimToady it seems anatomically unlikely to me
18:06 rindolf joined #perl6
18:06 PerlJam In fact, I was going to comment earlier that I occasionally wonder if you're really lwall and not some other family member or even a bot
18:06 PerlJam :-)
18:06 TimToady what makes you think my family members aren't bots?
18:07 cj PerlJam: TimToady: the public face of the Wall Nuthouse
18:07 PerlJam heh
18:07 rindolf Hi PerlJam
18:07 rindolf Hi TimToady
18:07 rindolf Hi everyone.
18:07 TimToady howdy
18:07 PerlJam Hello rindolf.
18:07 cj hi rindolf!
18:07 PerlJam rindolf: how's unemployment been treating you?
18:07 rindolf TimToady: what have you daughter (now married) study in college.
18:07 rindolf PerlJam: it treated me very well.
18:07 PerlJam rindolf: or should I say "self-employment"?
18:08 rindolf PerlJam: heh.
18:08 rindolf I'm not self-employed yet.
18:08 PerlJam well, thus the scare-quotes
18:08 rindolf I contacted a Ma'ariv journalist about writing some articles for Ma'ariv.
18:08 rindolf Could be a nice source of income.
18:08 b_jonas PerlJam: he is a bot: http://lxer.com/module/news​wire/view/29032/index.html
18:08 lambdabot Title: LXer: Paul Ferris: Pundit for a Day, 2005
18:08 rindolf I need to write them in Hebrew though.
18:08 drupek12 joined #perl6
18:09 rindolf If I can make a living from being an essayist, that would be awesome.
18:09 PerlJam rindolf: What is Ma'ariv ?
18:09 PerlJam never mind.
18:09 PerlJam wikipedia tells me enough
18:10 rindolf PerlJam: ok.
18:10 rindolf PerlJam: it's a newspaper.
18:10 rindolf It's also a prayer.
18:10 rindolf Or a time for a prayer.
18:10 PerlJam well, wikipedia uses the adjective "tabloid" to describe it.
18:10 rindolf PerlJam: it's not really a tabloid.
18:11 rindolf PerlJam: well at least not officially.
18:11 rindolf It's better than Yedioth Aharonoth and worse than Ha'aretz.
18:12 REPLeffect joined #perl6
18:12 PerlJam rindolf: what would be the subject matter of your essays?
18:12 rindolf PerlJam: lots of stuff.
18:12 PerlJam rindolf: perl?
18:12 PerlJam :)_
18:12 rindolf PerlJam: some about computers and FOSS.
18:12 rindolf PerlJam: Perl too, probably.
18:12 TimToady UFOs, mutant children...
18:12 rindolf Dynamic languages in general most likely.
18:13 rindolf Some about philosophy.
18:13 rindolf I still have to write the samples in Hebrew.
18:13 rindolf PerlJam: have you seen my "The End of IT Slavery"?
18:13 rindolf PerlJam: how are you kids doing?
18:13 PerlJam yes, I've seen it.
18:14 rindolf PerlJam: oh good.
18:14 PerlJam My kids are fine.  The twins are slightly sick, but they've gotten over it except for the runny noses.
18:14 rindolf PerlJam: that's good.
18:14 rindolf TimToady: have you ever had depressions?
18:15 TimToady had a tropical depression once
18:15 rindolf I had depressions, anxieties, hypomanias, manias - the works.
18:15 rindolf I think I'm Manic-Depressive.
18:15 TimToady was pretty depressed in my early 20's
18:15 rindolf TimToady: what's a tropical depression?
18:15 rindolf TimToady: oh.
18:15 PerlJam rindolf: They make medication for that.  A friend of mine started taking meds and he was night-and-day better
18:15 rindolf PerlJam: I'm taking medication.
18:15 REPLeffect Better than depressions from people touching you with 10 foot poles :-)
18:15 PerlJam TimToady: were those pre-Gloria days?
18:16 rindolf PerlJam: but it does not completely prevent it.
18:16 rindolf PerlJam: cogntivie psychology has helped me more.
18:16 rindolf PerlJam: have you read "Feeling Good"?
18:16 rindolf perlbot: feeling good
18:16 perlbot "Feeling Good" by David A. Burns - a field guide to Cognitive Psychology. http://xrl.us/vurb
18:16 lambdabot Title: Shlomi Fish' Book Recommendations
18:16 PerlJam no I've not.
18:17 rindolf PerlJam: you should.
18:17 rindolf PerlJam: it explains how to handle depressions very well.
18:17 rindolf PerlJam: and also useful as a preventative measure.
18:17 PerlJam I'll take it under advisement :)
18:17 jisom joined #perl6
18:17 PerlJam Though I've only had external experiences with depression.
18:17 rindolf PerlJam: you might be able to find an ebook online.
18:17 rindolf PerlJam: yes.
18:18 rindolf But people at any age can develop depressions.
18:18 PerlJam I'm too stubborn to get depressed about anything in particular.
18:18 TimToady PerlJam: yes, pre-Gloria
18:19 rindolf TimToady: how did you meet your wife?
18:19 macroron joined #perl6
18:19 TimToady but it's probably more like SAD, and California is a good place to get plenty of light
18:20 TimToady rindolf: her brother was my best buddy at college before she showed up
18:20 rindolf TimToady: oh nice.
18:20 rindolf TimToady: connections.
18:20 * cj is pretty cheery most of the time... I might explode if left in sunlight too long...
18:20 PerlJam Maybe that's it.  If I lived further north, perhaps I'd get depressed like other people.
18:20 rindolf "If you have connections, you don't need protexia"
18:20 rindolf PerlJam: I live in Israel and I get depressed.
18:20 cj sounds like a brand of condom
18:21 PerlJam rindolf: clearly you need to move closer to the equator then!  :)
18:21 rindolf PerlJam: heh.
18:21 REPLeffect PerlJam:  I think it depends on the person.
18:21 REPLeffect I could stay in a basement coding every day for a week easily.
18:21 REPLeffect I don't need the windows -- some folks do.
18:21 cj REPLeffect: me, too!
18:22 REPLeffect In fact.  In my old house, that's exactly what I did :-)
18:22 REPLeffect (have no basement now).
18:22 cj they put us in this friggin' corner office with tons of windows - we pull the blinds when the sun comes out
18:22 amnesiac joined #perl6
18:23 * PerlJam tries to imagine TimToady in college and doesn't notice much difference
18:23 TimToady cj: in Seattle?
18:23 PerlJam maybe the mustache was bigger?  Sideburns longer?
18:23 cj TimToady: yar
18:23 cj TimToady: it's not often...
18:23 [particle] watching the folks walk in and out of uwajimaya i suppose
18:23 TimToady well, they really don't understand that big yellow light in the sky up there...
18:23 REPLeffect "Is that a UFO?" :-)
18:24 TimToady no, it's a mutant children
18:24 PerlJam REPLeffect: more like "Ahhhh!  It burns!"
18:24 cj [particle]: the front door is obscured by some building... but otherwise I would be :)
18:24 REPLeffect "my eyes, my eyes!!!"
18:24 PerlJam exactly
18:24 cj [particle]: they put me in the big black building, not the ones by union station
18:24 [particle] the sun definitely has that effect here.
18:24 PerlJam Suddenly all programmers have been compared to Gollum.
18:25 TimToady the buildings are too shiny from all the rain
18:25 [particle] yesterday, ~60 and cloudy. today, the sun came out, so it'll be ~70.
18:25 [particle] cj: i see
18:25 TimToady if that were here, it would have swung between 50 and 80
18:25 cj [particle]: I get to watch people drive out of the express ramp
18:25 [particle] heh
18:28 TimToady that would be down at Seneca or James or so?
18:28 TimToady or Mercer?
18:28 * [particle] wonders when his favorite open sores developer returns to seattle
18:28 REPLeffect Ooh.  An "open sores" developer --- sounds painful.
18:29 TimToady Perl 6 is definitely a sort point with some folks...
18:29 [particle] yeah, ingy dot net has a framework on his left wrist
18:29 TimToady *sore
18:29 REPLeffect darn muscle memory.
18:29 TimToady gah, fingers are overtrained
18:29 cj TimToady: 5th & Columbia
18:30 rindolf PerlJam: I'm trying to find the time to take a look at Punie.
18:30 [particle] TimToady: that's below jackson
18:30 rindolf PerlJam: then hopefully, I'll start adapting it into rindolf.
18:30 [particle] err, no.
18:30 [particle] i'm still thinking about union station
18:30 * REPLeffect trying to figure out how Perl 6 could actually be a "sort point" with some folks :-)
18:31 REPLeffect perl -e " .... sort ... "
18:31 REPLeffect s/"/'/g
18:31 TimToady yeah, between Seneca and James
18:31 * offby1 jerks awake
18:31 offby1 those are streets in Seattle.
18:31 [particle] offby1: you're so five minutes ago
18:31 offby1 I am indeed.
18:32 offby1 cj: you're at Amazon?
18:32 REPLeffect "jerks awake":  That sounds like a bad slogan of some kind.
18:32 TimToady I'm just showing off my knowledge of geography.
18:32 TimToady or maybe ancient history...
18:32 offby1 REPLeffect: ok, then feel free to substitute "wakes with a start".
18:33 TimToady for me, Seattle is like, *so* 30 years ago...
18:33 rindolf Hi offby1 , [particle]
18:33 * offby1 waves
18:33 PerlJam TimToady: As long as you have the appropriate amount of fun (and we get a perl6 compiler out of the deal somehow  ;-)
18:33 TimToady the former is more certain than the latter.  :)
18:33 REPLeffect offby1: Sorry, I just can't resist seeing alternate meanings (a family trait).
18:34 cj offby1: yar
18:34 zafoeta can it be that perl6 has a lot of functional influences?
18:34 REPLeffect and disfunctional influences.
18:34 PerlJam zafoeta: of course.
18:34 REPLeffect (there I go again)
18:34 [particle] zafoeta: yes, and a lot of disfunctional interfaces
18:34 [particle] REPLeffect: beat me to it ;)
18:34 cj TimToady: I figured you were using google maps :)
18:35 REPLeffect I was just hoping to beat TimToady to it :-)
18:35 TimToady you did, barely
18:35 TimToady but I'd've spelled it right
18:35 TimToady reaching for the y key cost me the prize
18:36 REPLeffect hehe.
18:36 REPLeffect insert random rant about English here.
18:36 REPLeffect (or not-so-random-rant)
18:36 TimToady cj: I admit that I double checked with google there at the end.
18:36 [particle] it's greek to me
18:36 TimToady greek is a nice language
18:37 TimToady and great training in case grammars
18:37 cj when people say "functional programming" what do they mean?
18:38 REPLeffect I'll let it pass for the next guy this time :-)
18:38 TimToady generally they mean programming without side effects, to some extent or another
18:38 cj can you give me an example of a side-effect?
18:38 TimToady $a = 42
18:38 zafoeta reading from the synopsis i see that perl6 will have proper types ... :)
18:39 offby1 cj: How many times a day do you hear someone say "Only connect!            -- EM Forster" ?
18:39 TimToady zafoeta: yes, primarily motivated by the desire to do multimethod dispatch an the like
18:40 cj TimToady: is that it?  I must be missing some context...
18:40 ferreira but (let (a 42)) does not produce a side-effect.
18:40 TimToady Lisp is not a pure functional language
18:40 zafoeta so, it might also be more interesting for numerical programming purposes
18:40 ferreira but the let construction looks like a pure functional construct
18:40 TimToady it's interesting for problems that are solved by lining up a lot of definitions
18:41 zafoeta people in my industry always complain that perl is not good enough for what they are doing, and prefer python ...
18:41 TimToady not so good for modeling the real world, where OO reigns
18:42 zafoeta reading the synopsis, i like it a lot:)
18:42 TimToady we've been working on it a long time...
18:42 TimToady so most of the rough edges are worn off already
18:43 ferreira I dare to say that to many people the problem with Perl is that it gives them too many choices. And they don't want that.
18:43 offby1 there's something to that.
18:43 offby1 that's the attraction of scheme, in my humble opinion: There's Only One Way To Do It
18:43 TimToady yeah...that's part of why we're trying to give at least one obvious way to do it right.
18:43 offby1 s/the/part of the/
18:43 japhb joined #perl6
18:44 offby1 choice can indeed be overwhelming.
18:44 offby1 choice without guidance, anyway.
18:44 rindolf Bleh! I feel bad that my Wikipedia article was deleted.
18:44 TimToady we think we can make the right way easy to do by accident, and still provide flexibility
18:44 offby1 that of course is the ideal.
18:44 rindolf About the Haifa Linux Club.
18:44 rindolf Maybe I should join the wikipedia mailing list and discuss it there.
18:45 rindolf Discussing stuff on wikipedia using threading makes me frustrated.
18:45 ferreira Blessed hashes as objects is the easy way for OO in perl 5. And even so, inside-out objects are amazing.
18:45 zafoeta also, the problem of choice is that bad programmers will normally do a bad choice
18:46 TimToady ferreira: inside-out is amazing, but also kinda wrong.  :)
18:47 TimToady all the p5 approaches force the programmer to know too much about the class.
18:47 TimToady well, except maybe Moose...
18:48 TimToady and that can be blamed on p6 :)
18:48 ferreira What do you mean? The opaqueness that inside-out objects provide by saving the attributes elsewhere is the cunning trick?
18:48 TimToady at the price of making it harder to write metacode like serializers
18:49 TimToady even DESTROY can be problematic, depending
18:50 TimToady p5 really falls down on expressing the relationships between classes
18:51 TimToady and the confusion between functions and methods just keeps biting people over and over
18:52 ferreira I see.
18:52 cj isn't a function a method!? :)
18:53 TimToady p5 basically proves it's possible to make your OO design too orthogonal with the rest of the language.
18:56 ferreira I learned a lot from reading "Perl Best Practices". The name of the book emphasizes the positive side of the things. On the hand, there are the hundreds of ways not to do it. That makes Perl a kind of dangerous language: don't try it if you don't know what you're doing. And that's only true if you start to do advanced programming.
18:57 zafoeta my Hash of Array of Recipe %book; is the same as my Hash of Hash of Array of Recipe $book; ??
18:58 TimToady pretty close, except for the variable itself
18:58 TimToady certainly you could subscript them the same once you're past the var name
18:59 TimToady but if you had both in the same namespace, they wouldn't conflict
19:00 zafoeta i see, so, with the above declaration, could i say %book = $book ?
19:00 ferreira cj: nope, a method is a function. But there's no easy way to tell when a function is not a method.
19:00 TimToady %book := $book
19:00 zafoeta ok,thx
19:01 mithraic joined #perl6
19:08 rhr I'd like to start writing some tests, any suggestions on what needs more testing?
19:12 REPLeffect_ joined #perl6
19:12 fglock joined #perl6
19:13 TimToady the sections in the synopses that are barren of smartlinks, maybe?
19:20 rhr OK, I'll have a look
19:20 cognominal joined #perl6
19:21 [particle] looks like pugs needs a coverage tool too
19:28 ozo joined #perl6
19:34 ferreira left #perl6
19:47 svnbot6 r16222 | fglock++ | [PCR] - simplified perl5-ratchet-closure emitter
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20:16 veritos heylo
20:16 justatheory joined #perl6
20:16 masak veritos: good evening
20:17 veritos afternoon.
20:17 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
20:19 veritos TimToady: i think we should have all people write their own man pages.
20:20 veritos makes everyone feel like one big (dys)?functional family.
20:21 obvio171 joined #perl6
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20:40 riffraff hi
20:41 svnbot6 r16223 | fglock++ | [PCR]  perl5-ratchet - implemented <?{...}> and <!{...}>
20:43 avar fglock: go go go:)
20:44 avar fglock: I know PCR has emitting features, could it potentially be made less slow my caching the compiled P5 code?
20:44 fglock avar: :)
20:45 fglock avar: it does, already - it uses Cache::Cache
20:46 avar mm, cool
20:47 fglock it's about 30% slower with an empty cache (perl Makefile.PL empties the cache)
20:48 polettix joined #perl6
20:48 avar Pugs::Emitter::Rule::Perl5::Regex looks cool:)
20:50 fglock yes, I plan to replace parts of the perl5-ratchet emitter with it
20:51 fglock the non-ratchet engine is harder to replace; backtracking into subrules is hard in p5regex-land
20:52 avar how so?
20:52 fglock when you call a subrule like /.*/, it needs to return all possible combinations
20:53 fglock it may be possible with inlining
20:54 avar you could always make it (*FAIL) if I understand you correctly
20:54 fglock where / a <subrule> b / becomes / a (.*) b /
20:57 avar would compiling it to something like / (?: a <subrule> | a (.*) b (*FAIL) ) .. /x work?
20:58 fglock avar: not sure I understand it
20:58 avar not sure I do:)
20:59 fglock I mean: rule subrule { .* }; / a <subrule> b /;
21:00 fglock can perl5.10 call sub-regexes like this?
21:03 fglock home &
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