Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-05-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:50 Teratogen so is Perl 6 out yet?
00:55 diakopter Teratogen: yes, I think it *just now* escaped.  I'll go hunt around for it... it's gotta be around here somewhere.
00:56 dduncan maybe you'll catch it by Christmas
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01:43 agentzh @tell fglock it'd be cool if you have a look at my questions here: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-05-10#id_l23 thanks! :)
01:43 lambdabot Consider it noted.
01:45 agentzh moritz: the irclog has some oddity while processing long messages like the above:
01:45 agentzh http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-05-11#id_l17
01:45 lambdabot agentzh: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
01:45 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, http://tinyurl.com/yt8xrr
01:45 agentzh @messages
01:45 lambdabot moritz said 10h 49m 21s ago: you could prefix each paragraph of the synopsys on percabal.org/syn/ with an anchor and a link to that anchor, just like the irclogs
01:45 lambdabot moritz said 10h 47m 20s ago: if you then provide a mapping from line numbers to paragraph numbers, the irclog could automagically turn things like S02:2775 into a link
01:47 agentzh moritz: i think it's a bit tricky. maybe i should prepend to each paragraph an anchor for every line composing it.
01:48 agentzh line-to-paragraph mapping on your side is difficult.
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01:50 agentzh Hmm, regarding the implementation of smartlinks.pl, it's sufficient to add placeholders containing lineno info to the POD AST and replace them with proper <a name="..."> afterwards.
01:52 agentzh lacking time lately, will try it out weeks later :)
01:52 agentzh &
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01:54 Teratogen I want to propose a new Perl 6 operator
01:54 Teratogen <<==*==>>
02:06 Aankhen`` I wonder how come there's no Perl6::Perldoc::To::Html.
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02:13 Tene Teratogen: you're just... proposing a sequence of characters?
02:13 Tene Aankhen``: nobody has written one yet.
02:18 Aankhen`` Tene: Yes, I know, but strangely enough there's an Xhtml.
02:19 Aankhen`` I'm trying to summon enough courage to write a ::To::Html.  It's just a little intimidating when I look at the code for ::To::Xhtml.
02:20 Aankhen`` Oh, wait, first I was just going to fiddle with smartlinks.pl
02:25 Aankhen`` Hmm.  Gonna follow this up myself, but in case anyone already knows the answer: can LGPL code be incorporated into the Pugs source tree?
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02:26 Aankhen`` Well, LGPL-2.1 appears to be included under LICENSE, so I'm going to guess it can be.
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02:48 REPLeffect Is something wrong with planetsix.perl.org?
02:49 REPLeffect I try to load it and it connects, but never fully loads.
02:49 REPLeffect (that sounded stupid)
02:49 REPLeffect I go to the page, and get a connection, but the page load never completes.
02:55 Aankhen`` REPLeffect: Seems to be working alright here.
02:55 Aankhen`` REPLeffect: Can you ping it without a problem?
02:56 REPLeffect Yeah.  Must be a Firefox problem
02:56 REPLeffect exacerbated by dialup, probably :-)
02:56 Aankhen`` Awww.
02:56 REPLeffect Loads fine in Konqueror (albeit slowly)
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04:25 clkao summon ingy
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06:18 Aankhen`` Er, what do I use to upload something to ~agentzh/public_html on feather?
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06:53 riffraff hi
06:53 spinclad hi ho
06:53 Tene hi ho hi
06:54 spinclad Tene: you need a longer nick, so those will line up
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07:26 Tene yeah...
07:26 moritz Aankhen``: there ist perldoc2xhml in Perl6::Perldoc (or some such) that parses pod6
07:27 Aankhen`` moritz: Yes, I know, and I've used it. :-) I was wondering how come there's no HTML equivalent.
07:27 Aankhen`` And, like I said, trying to work up the courage to write one myself.
07:28 moritz you mean html4?
07:28 moritz you can still pipe it through `tidy' and tell tidy to produce any html format you want ;)
07:34 moritz Aankhen``: re LGPL: of course you can import it into the pugs tree, afaict lgpl is a "non-poisoing" license...
07:35 moritz and even it was poisoning, it would just affect the file it is linked to, not the whole repository
07:38 Aankhen`` Ah, I see.
07:38 Aankhen`` I wasn't sure, so I wanted to check.
07:38 Aankhen`` Then I saw it under LICENSE/ so I figured it should be okay.
07:38 Aankhen`` And yes, I do mean HTML 4.
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07:39 moritz what do you need that for?
07:40 moritz the HTML 4 I mean
07:43 dduncan LICENSE/ is just a convenient place for all licences used by parts of the distro can go, so that each component in the distro doesn't need its own copy
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07:47 Aankhen`` moritz: Same reason why you'd need any POD convertor.
07:48 Aankhen`` moritz: HTML makes a lot more sense than XHTML.
07:48 Aankhen`` dduncan: Ahh.
07:48 Aankhen`` dduncan: Welp, anyway, I figured if it's under LICENSE, it must be sanctioned, at any rate. ^_^
07:49 dduncan LICENSE/ doesn't indicate sanctioned
07:49 dduncan it just says what people are using
07:49 dduncan if you want another licence for your part, add the copy of that licence to LICENSES and use it
07:49 Aankhen`` Ergh.
07:49 Aankhen`` Nah, it wasn't for my part, it was someone else's code that I needed.
07:50 dduncan on a tangent, I will mention that I'm using straight GPL for my most important components ... QDRDBMS
07:52 dduncan I may possibly even be the only person whose ext/ is plain GPL
08:10 sapir I just checked out r16241... "perl Makefile.PL" dies with something about load_all_extensions but "./Makefile.PL" works... any idea why?
08:11 sapir (I had to change the first line of Makefile.PL to /usr/bin/perl , so it's definitely the same perl executable)
08:13 moritz "perl Makefile.PL" works for me
08:13 dduncan for some reason, the Makefile says: #!/usr/local/bin/perl
08:13 dduncan do you have a perl there too?
08:13 sapir no, I had to change it
08:14 Tene sapir: run 'which perl'
08:14 sapir /usr/bin/perl
08:14 dduncan I don't have a perl under local
08:14 sapir the error it gives me is: Can't call method "load_all_extensions" on an undefined value at inc/Module/Install.pm line 128.
08:14 dduncan the makefile has long worked, though I didn't try it in the last few days
08:14 Tene sapir: do you have a /usr/local/bin/perl ?
08:14 sapir Tene: no
08:15 dduncan actually, I remember now that I always invoke my pugs makefile using /path/to/my/perl Makefile.PL
08:15 dduncan and the latter has extra modules installed
08:16 dduncan it is also a perl 5.8.8, while my system perl would have been 5.8.6
08:17 dduncan I am now re-running /Volumes/Programming160/perl58 Makefile.PL ...
08:18 dduncan it completed without errors
08:19 dduncan sapir, did you get the error while running the makefile, or after using make or something on the result?
08:19 sapir from Makefile.PL
08:19 sapir running "./Makefile.PL" works and I can then make etc.
08:19 sapir which is working so far
08:19 dduncan well, no problems here
08:19 sapir so I'm ok... but I don't get why it should make a difference how I run it
08:20 dduncan fyi, one reason I run my own perl with extra modules is because make smoke et al has more dependencies
08:20 dduncan but I would expect plain Pugs to work with a pristine perl
08:21 dduncan it bundles its own special build system for one thing
08:21 dduncan including the part giving you the error
08:25 sapir I seem to still have Perl modules lying around from older Perl versions... I'm trying to update them now
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08:43 JanK_ could someone help me with a small regexp problem?
08:43 JanK_ i want to match every space in a string, but those between two ". for example the regex should not match the space between moo and cow but all other spaces 'foo bar asdf="moo cow" chicken'
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08:44 moritz JanK_: the easiest is a two-pass solution: first remove all "..."
08:45 moritz JanK_: the problem is that with multiple "..." pairs a regex has a hard time to decide if it's outside a quoted string or not
08:45 JanK_ moritz: i need this to split the string on the matched spaces.
08:46 JanK_ an other soloution would be to temporary replace the spaces in quotes, but i dont knwo how to do this either
08:46 moritz JanK_: what about splitting on all spaces, and rejoin those inside a quoted string?
08:47 JanK_ moritz: yeah, thank you that could be a solution
08:47 JanK_ i'll try this
08:47 moritz or you write a simple tokenizer
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14:53 cj whee.
14:53 cj morning folks
14:53 gnuvince Good morning
14:56 moritz heja
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15:51 rindolf Hi all!
15:51 rindolf Is this a bug:
15:51 rindolf perl -le 'my $r = qr/^\-{79}$/m; print +(("Hello\n" . ("-" x 79) . "\nYourkok\n") =~ /$r/)?"Yes":"No"'
15:54 [particle] yes, in your code
15:54 avar You're matching a string that ends in kok\n to a regex that is exactly 79 -
15:54 [particle] print returns 1
15:54 avar [particle]: note the +
15:54 [particle] oh, i missed the + sign....
15:54 avar :)
15:54 rindolf avar: yes, but it's multi-line.
15:55 rindolf avar: notice the /m
15:56 [particle] i'm not sure / modifiers work with qr
15:56 avar they do
15:56 [particle] how about qr/(?m).../
15:56 [particle] oh
15:58 avar urgh
15:58 rindolf Oh! I need a \n?
15:59 rindolf Or something
16:05 avar avar@Arsia:~$ perl -le 'my $r = qr/^\-{79}$/m; print +(("Hello\n" . ("-" x 79) . "\nYourkok\n") =~ /$r/)?"Yes":"No"'
16:05 avar No
16:05 avar avar@Arsia:~$ perl5.9.5 -le 'my $r = qr/^\-{79}$/m; print +(("Hello\n" . ("-" x 79) . "\nYourkok\n") =~ /$r/)?"Yes":"No"'
16:05 avar Yes
16:05 avar a
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16:12 jrockway ?eval undef eq undef
16:12 evalbot_r16241 Bool::True
16:13 * jrockway wishes for a modifier on eq to make that false
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16:13 PerlJam jrockway: why?
16:14 [particle] like NaN?
16:15 avar undef has never behaved like NULL
16:15 avar it's explicitly set to an undef value, at least in p5..
16:15 mncharity undef but unique ?  :)
16:16 jrockway well, it should be undefined, not false :)
16:16 jrockway admittedly, the current behavior is good for actual use (well, with no warnings 'uninitialized'...)
16:16 jrockway but it feels wrong to me :)
16:17 obra seen Juerd
16:17 avar when would undef eq undef => Bool::False be useful?
16:17 obra @seen juerd
16:17 lambdabot juerd is in #perl6. I last heard juerd speak 1d 4h 51m 46s ago.
16:17 obra @seen audreyt
16:17 lambdabot audreyt is in #haskell and #perl6. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
16:17 avar during theoretical circlejerks where the topic is definedness?:)
16:18 Juerd obra: pong
16:19 obra Juerd: hi. I got poked bout trying to help debug the commitbit perf issues on feather
16:19 obra But I...don't even have a feather account.
16:19 obra What's the right thing for me to be doing?
16:19 Juerd Heh, let's get you one then :)
16:20 obra What would you like from me?
16:20 Juerd First you send me an email in which you pretend you're genuine and stuff :)
16:20 obra juerd@juerd.nl?  Including my ssh pubkey?
16:20 Juerd You make up a full name, and state it, together with the required username
16:20 Juerd That mailaddress is fine
16:20 Juerd You can mail your pubkey, but I'll set your password to "changeme" anyway.
16:21 Juerd Feather is low security.
16:21 Juerd Can't combine security with giving anyone access :)
16:21 obra ::)
16:21 obra sent
16:22 Juerd Feather has 90 users, of which I think I met only 15 or so :)
16:22 obra :)
16:22 * kolibrie almost feels like he's met Juerd, but really he hasn't
16:22 Juerd obra: You're set
16:23 Juerd kolibrie: Care to elaborate? :)
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16:24 kolibrie Juerd: just been in the chatroom for so long I feel like I know you as well as some people I've met, but thinking back, we've never met in real life
16:24 Juerd Heh, interesting.
16:24 veritos heya
16:24 obra Juerd: thanks. I'll try to poke around. Something will likely need to be done as root. should I irc or mail or what when I know?
16:24 Juerd obra: Sure
16:25 obra ok
16:26 Juerd Do my /msg's ever arrive?
16:26 Juerd Ah, they do ):
16:26 Juerd eh
16:26 Juerd :)
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17:35 mncharity Can adverbs be meaningfully repeated?  eg, foo :v:v; being distinct from  foo :v:v:v; ?  There is the implication not (ie, use of bar(*%adverbs), but I don't immediately see an explicit statement.
17:37 mncharity ?eval sub f(*%a){say %a} f :v:v;
17:37 evalbot_r16241 OUTPUT[v1␤] Bool::True
17:37 mncharity ?eval sub f(*%a){say %a} f :v(2):v(3)
17:37 evalbot_r16241 OUTPUT[v3␤] Bool::True
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17:41 TimToady mncharity: if the parameter they are binding to is @v, then it gets all the :v values.
17:41 TimToady we probably need some tests for that
17:42 TimToady would you like to write some?
17:44 TimToady but it's also quite likely that it is not specced good
17:44 TimToady actually, it's at S06:463
17:46 TimToady the specs don't show any smartlinks to that section, so there probably are missing tests
17:47 TimToady especially since it was a fairly recent decision
17:47 mncharity :)
17:47 TimToady (where recent means "last year or so")
17:47 rindolf Hi TimToady
17:47 TimToady hi rindolf
17:47 rindolf TimToady: what's up?
17:47 TimToady there are missing tests, shock!
17:48 TimToady "There it was, gone completely!"
17:49 TimToady or at least, missing smartlinks
17:50 TimToady it's just an oddity of English that something missing can be said to exist...
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18:01 polettix TimToady: in Italian we say pretty much the same
18:01 TimToady probably and Indo-European thing...
18:01 TimToady *an
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18:45 obra Juerd: ping
18:46 obra TimToady: The commitbit issues on feather are, unfortunately, fascinating.
18:46 Juerd pongish
18:46 * Juerd loves Friday evenings at work :(
18:47 obra Juerd: I'm seeing slightly weird things out of the apache logs on Feather. I'd like to 1) get the apache2 instance actually logging requests and 2) add time-taken to the access log for apache1. Is that ok?
18:49 Juerd obra: 1) Sure, 2) Add that to new log files, please, because it'd make the existing logs incompatible with the standard
18:49 obra (basically, I'm seeing requests that take 2 minutes of clock time not show up in the apache log until 2 minutes in...and see firebug reporting 1.67s" for the request.
18:49 Juerd obra: Note, when debugging, that access logs only include *completed* requests and are sometimes useless for segfaults and such.
18:49 Juerd (In this case, mod_perl with an early handler can be a life saver)
18:50 obra right. What I'm trying to see is whether the request is being handed off by the apache1 instantly or sat on for 2 min.
18:52 Juerd Aha
18:52 Juerd Perhaps server-status can be of help too
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19:12 rindolf Juerd: can you install links or elinks on feather?
19:12 rindolf Juerd: please?
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20:02 obra PSA: svn is down while juerd does a dist-upgrade
20:02 obra it'll be back as soon as that's done
20:06 fglock obra: hi!
20:06 lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:08 obra hey fglock! how's things?
20:08 fglock agentzh: I think <alpha> and <ident> are built-in subrules, because I've seen them in examples
20:09 [particle] yes, they are, like <ws>
20:09 Tene ?eval 'foo' ~~ m/<ident>/
20:09 evalbot_r16241 Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::True, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 3, ␤  str => "foo", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named =>␤    { "ident" =>␤        Match.new(␤          ok => Bool::True, ␤          from => 0, ␤          to => 3, ␤          str => "foo", ␤          sub_pos => (), ␤          sub_named => {}␤        )␤    }␤)
20:11 fglock obra: I'm a bit under burn out lately, but I will be ok in a few days
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20:14 obra fglock: sorry to hear about hte burnout
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20:15 [particle] fglock: maybe a sunburn will help
20:16 veritos fglock/[particle]: huh ?
20:17 fglock agentzh: re $<a> := (<b>) - it creates $<a><b>
20:17 [particle] hint... go outside! enjoy life
20:17 fglock sure - I've got the weekend ahead
20:17 [particle] fglock: http://dev.perl.org/parrot/trunk/languages/abc/src/abc-2.pg
20:18 [particle] s/dev/svn/
20:18 veritos ooh, nifty.
20:21 moritz wow
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20:22 fglock hmm - cgi-irc in feather is failing
20:22 veritos try irssi.
20:22 veritos it's a fairly nice client
20:22 fglock [particle]: is this p6parrot already?
20:22 fglock veritos: I'm on irssi now :)
20:23 veritos fglock: oh...
20:23 veritos i was actually considering writing a small perl implementation.
20:23 moritz veritos: of what?
20:23 [particle] fglock: it's a first stab at syntax
20:23 veritos moritz: IRC
20:23 obra fglock: cgi-irc may be on the apache2 process
20:24 obra which is down while juerd does a system upgrade
20:24 [particle] it doesn't parse--note the opp syntax is not done
20:24 veritos moritz: yes, i know we have a lot, but mine would be faster.
20:24 moritz veritos: you mean another cgi interface?
20:24 moritz veritos: or a pure perl irc client for the desktop?
20:24 rindolf Hi moritz, obra
20:24 veritos moritz: no, pure perl for desktop
20:24 veritos hey rindolf
20:24 fglock veritos: ah - I thought you would implement a perl6 :)
20:25 moritz hi rindolf ;)
20:25 veritos fglock: v6-Py?
20:25 moritz hey, cool idea - let's implement perl6
20:25 moritz oh, wait
20:25 [particle] fglock: you seem to have cornered the market on that
20:25 fglock veritos: how is it going?
20:25 fglock [particle]: sorry?
20:25 veritos fglock: i've sorta scrapped it for now, i have a lot of schoolwork
20:26 veritos maybe i should implement rules first for the dynamic grammar
20:26 [particle] implementing perl6--you've done it a few ways already :)
20:27 fglock [particle]: that's what I've been wondering about,
20:27 rindolf Hi veritos
20:27 rindolf veritos: what's up?
20:27 rindolf moritz: what's up?
20:27 veritos rindolf: just chatting, nothing else.
20:27 moritz rindolf: lot of learning for the exams :(
20:28 fglock [particle]: it doesn't seem to have made much difference
20:28 moritz rindolf: or at least I'm supposed to :)
20:28 [particle] fglock: if you have ideas on what an opp syntax should look like, speak up
20:28 rindolf moritz: which exams?
20:29 fglock [particle]: did you take a look at STD?
20:29 [particle] yes
20:29 moritz rindolf: master exams
20:29 [particle] translating from that to pge is the problem
20:29 moritz physics
20:30 rindolf moritz: physics...
20:30 rindolf moritz: I wasn't too fond of physics in Uni.
20:30 moritz rindolf: nothing to be scared of ;)
20:30 moritz rindolf: it's all a matter of taste
20:31 rindolf moritz: I wasn't scared of it.
20:31 moritz I like computer science very well, but I decided it's nothing I want to do all my life
20:32 offby1 *gasp*
20:33 rindolf moritz: I studied Elec. Eng.
20:33 rindolf My first Usenet message - http://groups.google.com/group/rec.puzzles/browse_thread/thread/497cd6684bcde371/4e05d7f0912f3944?lnk=st&amp;q=shlomi+fish&amp;rnum=739#4e05d7f0912f3944
20:33 lambdabot Title: Gates &amp; Angels - A Tougher Version - rec.puzzles | Google Groups, http://tinyurl.com/233ml9
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20:34 obra Juerd: upgrade done?
20:35 offby1 God bless lambdabot for tiny-ifying long URLs.
20:35 moritz who wrote lambdabot?
20:35 Juerd obra: No
20:36 offby1 rindolf: even if I _knew_ where my first Usenet post was, I wouldn't tell anybody :-p
20:36 Juerd rindolf: 1994; impressive.
20:37 Juerd My first usenet posting was in 1997
20:37 dduncan afaik, I have never posted to usenet
20:37 dduncan my first internet communication was email, in 1997
20:38 dduncan and the first time I used the web was in 1995
20:38 dduncan or late 1994
20:38 * offby1 finds the old "Four Yorkshiremen" film clip
20:39 fglock [particle]: one thing that bugs me is if "proto 'postfix:++'" is actually redefining the perl6 grammar, not bc's ?
20:39 bonesss joined #perl6
20:39 Juerd March 20, 1997
20:39 Juerd My first internet communication was IRC
20:39 Juerd In fact, IRC was the first TCP protocol I used successfully :)
20:40 [particle] fglock: can't that be fixed with namespaces?
20:40 fglock [particle] it is lexically redefining the global table
20:40 [particle] grammar foo;
20:40 Tene Juerd: where did you get your IRC client?
20:40 TimToady fglock: that's just the old pge notation, from before we understood that distinction
20:40 TimToady that's part of what will change in the upcoming refactoring
20:41 Juerd For a while (I was 12 years old) I had no idea there was more than this. IRC fit the description perfectly: communicating with other people, exchanging files, looking up information (infobots!)
20:41 Juerd So for all I knew, for a few months, IRC *was* the internet.
20:41 Tene Heh.
20:41 Juerd Tene: It came with the free dial up trial account
20:41 REPLeffect joined #perl6
20:41 moritz Juerd: and nobody postet http:// URLs that you were curious about?
20:41 Juerd I have no idea what the name of that client was
20:41 moritz s/postet/posted/
20:41 Juerd moritz: That's how I eventually learned there was more.
20:42 Juerd moritz: But no, very few people posted that.
20:43 Juerd A "corporate website" was still called "hompeage", and was typically a tiled background image of the brand logo, and a dozen pages in a horrible color scheme.
20:44 fglock TimToady: hmm - you mean postfix:* does change the perl6 grammar, and pge is being refactored?
20:44 Juerd This was in 1995
20:45 moritz Juerd: for most companies that's still the case :(
20:45 [particle] pge is being refactored to use the new syntax
20:45 Juerd I still coded in Quick Basic :)
20:45 moritz Juerd: well, not _so_ bad
20:45 [particle] i forget how far along it is, but we now have p6regex (old) and perl6regex (new) syntax
20:46 [particle] eventually the migration will be complete
20:46 lichtkind joined #perl6
20:46 [particle] ...but right now so many things depend on pge, we need to  do a step at a time (i forgot about those syntax changes, which is why my initial response was confused)
20:47 PerlJam isn't that what branches are for? :)
20:47 [particle] why branch when you don't have to?
20:48 [particle] only trunk is smoked, and it's one less merge to do
20:49 [particle] until we get a good set of smoke utils, we're not going to do much branching, i'm afraid
20:50 TimToady postfix:* is illegal, if you meant the * literally.  postfix:<*> is reserved for talking about the * operator in your current language that you're running.  you can name your rules anything other than that, but postfix:sym<*> is recommended for rules that parse symbolic operators
20:50 TimToady postfix:foo works for non-symbolic operators
20:51 moritz you can use barewords as posfix operators?
20:51 TimToady and is taken to be short for postfix:sym<foo>
20:51 fglock I mean postfix:* as postfix-anything
20:51 TimToady ?eval 1i
20:51 evalbot_r16241 0.0 + 1.0i
20:51 moritz and how do you apply them to variables?
20:51 moritz with unspace?
20:52 TimToady ?eval my $x = 1; $x.i
20:52 evalbot_r16241 Error: No such method in class Int: &i
20:52 TimToady NIY
20:52 TimToady will work as soon as STD is the parser though
20:52 fglock how do you talk about postfix in the current grammar, as opposed to postfix in the current language?
20:53 [particle] my Ordinal $x = 3; # could be the same as my $x = 3rd; # if postfix:sym<rd> is defined
20:53 obra Juerd: I see no deb/dh/apt processes
20:53 TimToady if you say <postfix> you're calling all the postfix:* rules in your grammar
20:53 TimToady using * in your sense
20:54 fglock so it's a... multi?
20:54 TimToady but if you say postfix:<*> you are specifically not referring to one of those rules, but current language
20:54 Juerd obra: It fails in several places and I'm a bad multitasker
20:55 TimToady yes, many of the rules in STD are multis--all of the ones that 'cheat' constructs a rule for at the end.
20:55 obra Juerd: ok
20:55 * Juerd removes aspell and ispell
20:55 Juerd Ugh, broken packages :(
20:55 offby1 packages don't break.  People do.
20:56 Juerd I never said they were breaking.
20:56 TimToady the constructed postfix rule refers to 5 postfix:* rules
20:56 fglock and "sym" is like the old "KEY" in <%hash>
20:56 TimToady the first one of which is postfix_i
20:56 * PerlJam is still trying to wrap his head around "calling _all_ the postfix rules"
20:57 TimToady much like, but the rule can set $<sym> to whatever it likes
20:57 TimToady so that the eventual name of the operator in the eventual language becomes postfix:{$sym}
20:57 lichtkind hi juerd
20:58 TimToady so you can write one rule that parses various operators
20:58 TimToady STD does that with sigil casts, for instance
20:58 PerlJam oh, I see.  it's lookup-tableish
20:59 TimToady PerlJam: the point is that some of the operators are defined by standard Perl, while others by the user, and they all have to have the same standing in the parser
21:00 [particle] rule dispatch
21:00 PerlJam right, I'm getting it (pardon my slowness :)
21:00 lichtkind_ joined #perl6
21:00 TimToady so when the grammar says <postfix> it knows all of the postfix operators defined at this point, and doesn't privilege the standard ones over the user-defined, or vice versa
21:00 fglock ah, I just found it in S05
21:01 japhb joined #perl6
21:01 TimToady (the cheated version isn't that smart, of course, since it's not doing longest-token really)
21:01 * [particle] heads off to lunch
21:04 * PerlJam needs to re-read S05 at the very least.
21:05 * moritz thought about translating it to German to be forced to read it carefully ;)
21:06 PerlJam I've read it carefully once already.  But it's changed a bit since then  ;)
21:06 * spinclad thought of writing a parser for it to force another process to read it carefully
21:08 TimToady if only we could find someone to write it carefully, we'd be home free...
21:08 moritz TimToady: do you think it's not carefull right now?
21:09 PerlJam heh
21:10 TimToady so far I've only rewritten one synopsis to stand on its own without assuming a bunch of Perl 5, and that's S03.
21:10 PerlJam Well, S05 doesn't have the words "conjecture" or "conjectural" nor does it have the word "maybe" anywhere within its text.  I'd S05 is doing okay :-)
21:10 PerlJam s/I'd/I's say/
21:10 PerlJam Grr.
21:11 TimToady a synopsis that doesn't adequately mark its conjectures is even more hopeless  :)
21:11 Tene s/Grr/Hi, I'm PerlJam/
21:11 TimToady and, in fact, S05 has two instances of "Conjecture".
21:12 PerlJam ah, my search was case sensitive when I didn't mean for it to be.
21:13 PerlJam and there's one instance of "Maybe" that looks like it should be "May be"
21:13 TimToady looks like there are currently 14 Conjectures in the design.
21:13 tewk joined #perl6
21:13 fglock weekend &
21:14 TimToady have fun
21:14 fglock I will :)
21:33 moritz S05 mentions user defined modifiers - any idea how that might look like?
21:49 ruz_ joined #perl6
21:59 weinig joined #perl6
22:01 ingy hi all
22:01 moritz hi ingy ;)
22:01 ingy I just bound libyaml to perl. see YAML::LibYAML
22:01 ingy when this work matures, I recommend it replace syck for pugs dev
22:02 ingy hi moritz
22:02 avar ingy: why is it better than syck?
22:03 ingy because it was written exactly to the YAML1.1 spec
22:03 ingy syck was completely adhoc and is pretty buggy
22:03 ingy and afaik has no native unicode support
22:04 ingy libyaml is the canonical Python implementation and has been ported to Ruby
22:05 ingy it also is a streaming (think SAX) parser/emitter
22:05 ingy syck is not
22:05 ingy syck forces you to build everything in memory
22:06 ingy whereas libyaml could theoretically process an endless yaml stream
22:07 Tene cat /dev/randomyaml | libyaml --parse
22:11 ingy cat /dev/randomyaml | libyaml --parse | /dev/phonecall --random-number
22:12 avar nice
22:13 ingy I'm following audrey's lead and implementing the whole stack over libyaml's parser/emitter in C
22:13 ingy instead of Perl, so that it should be very fast
22:14 prism joined #perl6
22:14 Juerd Debian, f you. Just !@#$%# pick some sane defaults and don't block to wait for my input
22:15 Juerd Or group the questions together and ask them all at once, instead of intermittently.
22:16 japhb Juerd: part of that is package maintainers who still don't use debconf.  Debconf questions "should" come all at once at the beginning, and you can change your question level such that it takes defaults most of the time.
22:17 nperez joined #perl6
22:17 Juerd japhb: I've never had debconf questions all at the beginning.
22:17 japhb Packages that aren't up to snuff usually irk me, but then I recall that I don't have packaging skillz either, so every packager has to start *somewhere*.
22:18 wolverian joined #perl6
22:18 japhb Now, base/essential packages that are handled idiotically really do irk me.
22:19 japhb Juerd: perhaps different definitions of "beginning".  Clearly it doesn't know what to ask until the packages are downloaded and unpacked, but it should be able to ask before doing the installs.
22:19 wolverian joined #perl6
22:20 wolverian Juerd, feather's locales seem borked. want me to investigate? can't see if you're doing something already there :)
22:21 Juerd wolverian: I disabled it
22:21 wolverian oh. well, that explains it..
22:21 Juerd wolverian: I've backupped your old config so I can restore it easily
22:21 wolverian well, it's just that I don't have an UTF-8 locale anymore..
22:21 Juerd japhb: Except it unpacks each package individually, just before installing it.
22:21 wolverian s/an/a/
22:22 Juerd wolverian: For some reason that I have yet to figure out, feather is very slow with some things, and has extremely high loads even when doing very little.
22:22 Juerd At this moment, a load of 11 for just dist-upgrading. Has been at 19 even.
22:22 Juerd Disabling locales helped. A little.
22:22 wolverian Juerd, hm. well, UTF-8 locales are very resource hungry when sorting and such. some locales are, anyway.
22:23 Juerd If anyone has ideas...
22:23 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
22:26 japhb hmmm, /me wonders if I've not come across debconf behaving badly because I so rarely do really huge upgrades (I normally ride testing)
22:27 Juerd I have a lot of huge upgrades, because I run Debian Sid almost everywhere
22:27 Juerd "Unstable" is sometimes surprisingly more stable than "testing" :)
22:27 Juerd Even though it has many more updates
22:29 wolverian I've been trying ubuntu a bit, leaving servers to autoinstall security ugprades and otherwise letting them be for the six month release cycle
22:29 wolverian it's .. peaceful.. mostly.
22:30 wolverian anyway, no idea about the load. :(
22:30 Juerd I'm currently considering evaluating ubuntu for servers.
22:31 Juerd I've used it on my laptops for more than a year now, and am pleased in general, but not about major upgrades.
22:31 wolverian at least they've now added a text mode release upgrader
22:31 wolverian (do-release-upgrade)
22:32 wolverian kind of telling that it is needed at all. :)
22:33 Juerd It's silly to have such things gui only.
22:33 wolverian yes.
22:33 Juerd It's usually easier to build some commands and then a frontend, than to combine things and do it both monolithically.
22:33 wolverian iirc the backend is separated, they just didn't have a text frontend until now.
22:43 prism joined #perl6
22:45 japhb Juerd: I don't run unstable primarily because when unstable does get horked, it's a MESS to clean up.  On the downside, when someone uploads a key package like say glibc every week, never allowing it to fulfill the testing waiting period, a LOT of packages get blocked.  And when glibc finally moves to testing, it's almost like a release upgrade.
22:46 * japhb just wants to shake the glibc packager and say "PLEASE STOP UPLOADING!  TWO WEEKS, THAT'S ALL I ASK!"
22:50 mjk joined #perl6
23:01 Yaakov ingy!
23:02 nperez joined #perl6
23:06 Juerd japhb: Such a mess hasn't happened to me in the past 3 years.
23:06 Juerd japhb: But indeed such situations have existed
23:06 japhb Juerd: once burned, twice shy and all that.  In my case, more like "several times burned, shy for a long time"
23:07 ruz changed the nick to ruz_
23:08 japhb If not for the aforementioned "caffeinated packager single-handedly blocks testing" problem, I'd be perfectly happy in the testing world.
23:26 avar joined #perl6
23:35 moritz in S05:
23:35 moritz    / ( foo | bar ) d <~~$0> /  # matches using rule associated with $0
23:35 moritz The last is equivalent to
23:35 moritz    / ( foo | bar ) d ( foo | bar) /
23:36 moritz isn't there a 'd' missing at the end?
23:36 moritz eg  / (foo | bar ) d ( foo | bar ) d/
23:40 obra Juerd: looks done. did it error out again?
23:40 japhb moritz: why?  The d is outside the parentheses marking $0's capture bounds, right?
23:41 moritz japhb: right
23:42 obra hm. commitbit feels a lot faster
23:43 moritz it _is_ faster
23:43 obra oh good :)
23:43 obra I wouldn't call it _fast_
23:43 moritz it doesn't time out on nearly every request as before
23:44 obra But now, hopefully, I have time to actually finish the new version ;)
23:44 moritz can somebody re-enable trac?
23:48 moritz deleting a pending author in commitbit is a noop
23:51 SubStack joined #perl6
23:52 japhb obra: so what did you change?  Or is it simply because of Juerd's upgrades?
23:55 obra japhb: I reindexed and cleaned the db
23:56 japhb obra: ah.  I'm surprised we were large enough to have performance problems from the DB ....

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