Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-05-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:45 Aankhen`` Man, SVN is bloody crazy.
00:46 Aankhen`` I `svn up` a file, and it's all fine.
00:46 Aankhen`` I make one change to it, and suddenly when I view the diff, it's doing a diff against some ancient version.
00:46 Aankhen`` (No updates in the meantime or anything.)
00:49 Tene Well *obviously* you should use $other instead!
00:49 svnbot6 r16261 | Aankhen++ | util/smartlinks.pl:
00:49 svnbot6 r16261 | Aankhen++ | * added skip links for non-JS users.
00:49 Aankhen`` Tene: Hmph.
00:53 Aankhen`` Ah, it was some weird problem with .svn being out-of-sync or something like that.
00:58 svnbot6 r16262 | Aankhen++ | util/t/01-smartlinks.t:
00:58 svnbot6 r16262 | Aankhen++ | * updated &fix_randomness for the updated classnames.
01:01 Aankhen`` How very unnecessarily redundant. <G>
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02:01 dduncan I have a style question: in practice, do people usually write their SQL keywords all in uppercase, all in lowercase, or a mixture thereof?
02:01 dduncan Most examples I see are all uppercase, but does anyone actively prefer alternatives?
02:03 dduncan oops, wrong channel
02:03 dduncan ignore that please
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02:31 svnbot6 r16263 | Aankhen++ | * util/smokeserv/smokeserv-client.pl: only show 'consider installing...' messages if the modules did not load.
02:37 Aankhen`` With a precompiled Test.pm, on Debian-under-VMWare with 1,024 MB of memory and two processors (single dual-core), a full smoke took 24.68 minutes.
02:37 Aankhen`` Seems pretty fast to me. :-D
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02:56 christel [Global Notice] This is your captain speaking; in a little while our main US hub will be going down for some maintenance. As you may feel some turbulence as we jump I would ask you to keep your seat in a upright position, stow the tray table and keep your seatbelt fastened while the fasten seatbelt sign is illuminated. Thank you for flying freenode and have a great day!
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03:18 agentzh "0 ��, 0 ��" looks odd to me. it seems that the .t file crashed or did not use Test.pm.
03:19 agentzh sigh. my client doesn't send UTF-8.
03:20 agentzh moritz: it's GBK :)
03:23 agentzh wow, 50.72 min smoking period on feather for the very first time! it was 130+ min or even 200+ min in the last few weeks!
03:23 agentzh feather++
03:23 agentzh Juerd++
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03:48 agentzh yay! util/t/01-smartlinks.t passes on windows!
03:49 agentzh Aankhen``: the tarball is now updated on feather.
03:49 svnbot6 r16264 | agentz++ | [util/t/01-smartlinks.t]
03:49 svnbot6 r16264 | agentz++ | - fixed the \r issue on Win32.
03:55 svnbot6 r16265 | agentz++ | 01-smartlinks.t - minor cleanup
03:56 Aankhen`` agentzh: Excellenté.
03:56 agentzh :)
03:56 Aankhen`` That's weird.  Did I introduce new issues?
03:57 agentzh ?
03:57 Aankhen`` In 01-smartlinks.
03:57 Aankhen`` t
03:57 Aankhen`` Hmm, guess not.
03:57 agentzh it's failing on your side?
03:57 Aankhen`` No, I was wondering about the cleanup.
03:57 Aankhen`` But looking at the changes it seems fine. :-)_
03:57 Aankhen`` s/_//
03:58 agentzh :)
03:58 Aankhen`` I'm thinking about working on smoke-server.pl
03:58 agentzh what features are you going to add?
03:59 Aankhen`` Not going to add, just fiddle with the HTML a bit.
03:59 Aankhen`` I'm not really the feature adding type, heh.
03:59 agentzh Aankhen``++ # the HTML guy
03:59 Aankhen`` :-D
04:01 agentzh feather is still quite slow for interactive use. not suitable for coding and manual testing.
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04:26 svnbot6 r16266 | agentz++ | smartlinks.pl - added hyper-links "[Index of Synopses]"
04:26 svnbot6 r16266 | agentz++ | and "[Top]" to every synopsis page except S26.
04:32 svnbot6 r16267 | agentz++ | smartlinks.pl - added proper footer for S26.html too
04:36 svnbot6 r16268 | agentz++ | smartlinks.pl - added the missing #__top anchor link to S26.html. Perl6::Perldoc::To::Xhtml-- :)
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05:08 svnbot6 r16269 | agentz++ | gen-smartlinks-data - excludes S26.html from the tarball
05:21 * agentzh is adding line-anchors support to smartlinks.pl
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06:04 agentzh can't reach feather's http...
06:09 agentzh and can't commit to the pugs repos. alas.
06:11 agentzh moritz: line anchor support has landed. i'll commit it as soon as feather is back.
06:11 Aankhen`` Heh, I'll finally understand what it means. :-P
06:12 agentzh line anchors?
06:12 Aankhen`` Yeah.
06:12 Aankhen`` Do you mean linking stuff like S02:273 to the exact line?
06:12 agentzh right.
06:12 Aankhen`` Ahh.
06:12 Aankhen`` That wasn't so hard.
06:12 Aankhen`` I wonder why it made my head explode earlier.
06:12 agentzh we are talking about http://.../S04.html#_line_117
06:13 Aankhen`` Right.
06:13 Aankhen`` Ah, would be useful to have XHTML 2's `l` element there.
06:13 agentzh what's that?
06:14 Aankhen`` You could think of it as a more useful translation of the `br` element.  It's intended for marking up individual lines.
06:14 Aankhen`` <l>Line 1</l><l>Line 2</l> # among other things, they'd have a linebreak in between.
06:14 agentzh ah
06:14 agentzh how to jump to a particular line then?
06:17 Aankhen`` Oh, you'd give all the `l` elements themselves IDs.
06:17 Aankhen`` <l id="_line_1">...</l><l id="_line_2">...</l>
06:17 agentzh okay
06:17 Aankhen`` What are you placing the anchors on, BTW?
06:18 agentzh currently i'm using <a name="_line_1"></a> <a name="_line_2"></a>
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06:18 Aankhen`` Mmm.
06:18 agentzh it works at least :)
06:18 Aankhen`` Well, it would probably be better semantics, if you feel like doing it, to make it <span id="_line_1">...</span> and so on.
06:19 Aankhen`` Oh, sure, getting it to work is the most important part. ;-)
06:19 Aankhen`` I'm just very big on "refining" other people's work and not really doing much on my own. :-P
06:19 agentzh hopefully you'll refine the line anchor stuff after i commit it.
06:20 agentzh use of <span> looks tricky to implement since it wraps things.
06:21 agentzh i tried very hard to ensure those anchors didn't affect the appearance.
06:26 Aankhen`` I'll take a whack at it.
06:26 * agentzh summons feather.
06:26 Aankhen`` Go agentzh! ^_^
06:28 agentzh weird. apache is down? ssh works, ping works, but http doesn't :(
06:43 Aankhen`` I was just thinking about it, and I suddenly realized that if I had to choose the one most important thing Perl 6 brings to the table, it wouldn't be any syntactic feature or programming style or anything of the sort.  Rather, it would be the sense of opening up the language.
06:44 agentzh totally agree. just consider other languages like C# and Java...
06:46 Aankhen`` Absolutely.
06:46 Aankhen`` But even more "flexible" and "dynamic" languages, like Python, Ruby or *shudders* PHP… they've got nothing on Perl 6.
06:47 Aankhen`` I suppose Perl 6 will have nothing on Lisp. *giggles*
06:57 QtPlatypus Aankhen``: I secretly suspect that Perl6 is a lisp.
06:58 Aankhen`` LOL.
07:05 agentzh i restarted apache on feather.
07:05 Aankhen`` Kewlies.
07:05 agentzh httpd was not running.
07:05 Aankhen`` Ah.
07:05 Aankhen`` I wonder how come?
07:05 agentzh not sure if it's intentional or not.
07:06 agentzh maybe our admin brought it down for maintainance?
07:06 * Aankhen`` shrugs.
07:07 Belaf changed the nick to Belaf_
07:07 agentzh well, at least i can commit now :)
07:07 svnbot6 r16270 | agentz++ | [smartlinks.pl]
07:07 svnbot6 r16270 | agentz++ | * added line anchor support via the --line-anchor option
07:07 svnbot6 r16270 | agentz++ |   (default off)
07:07 svnbot6 r16270 | agentz++ | Examples:
07:07 svnbot6 r16270 | agentz++ | S04.html#_line_117
07:07 svnbot6 r16270 | agentz++ | S01.html#_line_1
07:07 svnbot6 r16270 | agentz++ | The line numbers are continuous and starts from 1.
07:08 Aankhen`` Yay!
07:08 agentzh (root access)++
07:08 Aankhen`` agentzh++ # kudos :-)
07:08 agentzh :)
07:14 agentzh Hmm,  0 ��, 0 �� should be "N/A"
07:14 agentzh or it's rather confusing.
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07:15 pasteling "rindolf" at 88.152.120.36 pasted "Problem with Parrot" (41 lines, 3.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24857
07:16 agentzh rindolf: try #parrot?
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07:18 svnbot6 r16271 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/script/update-syn]
07:18 svnbot6 r16271 | agentz++ | * added the --line-anchor option for smartlinks.pl
07:23 weinig|zZz changed the nick to weinig
07:26 Aankhen`` Ahh… just went over S26 in full.  Pod++ # more of what I was talking about with regards to "opening up" the language
07:30 agentzh okay, synopses on feather have been updated with line anchors: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04#_line_53
07:30 lambdabot Title: S04
07:30 agentzh feedback and bug reports welcome :)
07:30 Aankhen`` Neato.
07:31 Aankhen`` I take it the IRC logs will eventually use them as well?
07:31 Aankhen`` Er.
07:31 Aankhen`` Yeah, since that was the point.
07:31 * Aankhen`` shuts up.
07:32 agentzh @tell moritz you can now link to a particular line from the irc logs. see r16270
07:32 lambdabot Consider it noted.
07:32 agentzh Aankhen``: absolutely
07:36 agentzh the anchors' names shouldn't be lead by underscores?
07:37 agentzh it jumps twice, hmm
07:38 agentzh odd...
07:40 agentzh it works fine in IE, but firefox tends to take another jump away from the right position...
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07:43 svnbot6 r16272 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : added more methods to AST.pm ; expanded SeeAlso.pod
07:45 agentzh The "Go" button of firefox works while the refresh button does not :(
07:45 dduncan regarding those line-specific anchors, I suspect it may be more maintainable if they count lines relative to (following) a particular section heading ... that way, as the Synopsis continue to be edited, the links are less likely to break horribly
07:46 dduncan at least assuming the current numbers are absolute for the file
07:46 agentzh dduncan: but TimToady tends to get line numbers from his vim.
07:46 agentzh dduncan: it's mainly for linking from "S04:123" in irc logs rather than from the test suite via smartlinks.
07:46 dduncan okay
07:47 agentzh :)
07:47 dduncan in that case, since they are just used for short periods, that should work well
07:47 agentzh *nod*
07:54 agentzh heh, i like my red in moritz's logs :)
07:54 agentzh (although not as bright as audreyt's)
08:01 svnbot6 r16273 | agentz++ | smartlinks.pl - replaces the confusing "0 passed, 0 failed" info to "N/A"
08:03 agentzh s/to/with/
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08:21 agentzh ?eval 'a' ~~ /$<b> := ($<alpha>)/; $<b><alpha>.say
08:22 evalbot_r16273 *** Cannot parse regex: $<b> := ($<alpha>)␤*** Error: ␤Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
08:22 agentzh ?eval 'a' ~~ /$<b> := (<alpha>)/; $<b><alpha>.say
08:22 evalbot_r16273 *** Cannot parse regex: $<b> := (<alpha>)␤*** Error: ␤Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
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09:22 moritz agentzh++ I'm gonna implement linking to synopsis lines now ;)
09:22 lambdabot moritz: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:22 moritz @moosages
09:22 lambdabot agentzh said 1h 50m 14s ago: you can now link to a particular line from the irc logs. see r16270
09:23 jrockway heh
09:23 jrockway @messages
09:23 lambdabot You don't have any new messages.
09:23 jrockway @tell jrockway that he doesn't have any messages
09:23 lambdabot You can tell yourself!
09:23 jrockway anyway :)
09:23 moritz @tell jrockway lambdabot is amazing ;)
09:23 lambdabot Consider it noted.
09:24 jrockway @tell moritz lambdabot++
09:24 lambdabot Consider it noted.
09:24 jrockway he seems to have fallen off #haskell on irc.perl.org though
09:24 lambdabot jrockway: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:24 jrockway @moosages
09:24 lambdabot moritz said 37s ago: lambdabot is amazing ;)
09:24 moritz @moosages
09:24 lambdabot jrockway said 27s ago: lambdabot++
09:24 perlbot What kind of idiot karmas himself?  Your kind of idiot!
09:24 moritz *g*
09:25 agentzh bots are interacting with each other!
09:25 agentzh cool
09:25 jrockway it's more fun when they reply to each other
09:26 lumi It's best when you can get them looping! A Haskell/Perl quine possibly
09:35 svnbot6 r16274 | moritz++ | [irclog] added line links to synopsis
09:35 agentzh yay, moritz++
09:35 moritz http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-05-13#id_l231 as an example
09:35 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, http://tinyurl.com/2h3hf6
09:37 agentzh S04:53
09:37 moritz damned
09:38 agentzh ;)
09:38 moritz ah, I asserted whitespaces around it
09:38 moritz stupid idea
09:39 moritz I should just use word boundaries
09:39 agentzh nod
09:39 agentzh see "S04:53"
09:41 agentzh supper &
09:41 svnbot6 r16275 | moritz++ | [irclog] synopsis links don't need to be surrounded by whitespace anymore
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09:41 moritz and btw links to line number <10 don't work, because I don't think it will happen very much
09:41 moritz or should I allow it nevertheless?
09:41 moritz ok, it's perl, I allow it ;)
09:43 mayweed does anyone know when Trac will be re-enable?
09:44 moritz my guess is "when feathers load is acceptable low"
09:44 moritz mayweed: which is propably not the kind of answer you want ;)
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09:46 mayweed moritz: feathers load will never be "low" wont it?
09:46 moritz I don't know, I don'T even have an account
09:47 moritz but Juerd said something about moving it somewhere
09:50 svnbot6 r16276 | moritz++ | [irclog] minor fixes
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10:09 Juerd Trac will be re-enabled when feather's performance problem is solved, indeed
10:09 Juerd A linux expert friend is going to look at it tomorrow. I hope he'll find something that can be improved
10:11 moritz I think you should forbid most of trac's pages for robots
10:12 Juerd Depends on how well or bad performance gets
10:12 Juerd I disabled trac because it easily spent a few minutes per request
10:13 Juerd And no browser would still be connected to the server at the point where it started outputting
10:14 * Juerd hasn't considered for a second to profile and/or optimize trac
10:14 Juerd Python...
10:15 moritz if most web app were written in perl the world would be a better place
10:16 moritz at least the internet, that is ;)
10:17 integral The problem is something deeper than feather just being very heavily loaded with pugs and svk processes?
10:39 jrockway svn::web?
10:39 jrockway along with rt for tickets and kt::timeline for... a timeline (if you like that)
10:39 jrockway and as for wikis, there are plenty of perl ones
10:40 jrockway kwiwi, mojomojo etc.
10:40 jrockway trac--
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10:58 agentzh Aankhen``: Oh...the Javascript code executed at load time changes the page layout so much that line anchors have little effect afterwards. :(
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11:56 moritz I think the problem is that the test sections are visible by default
11:56 moritz It should be fixed by setting them to display:none by default
11:57 agentzh moritz: no, "display:none" only makes the deviation much smaller, but still inexact. :(
11:57 agentzh i've already tried that.
11:58 moritz but less error is better than more error
11:58 agentzh disabling javascript completely "fixes" it.
11:58 agentzh moritz: i'm looking for a true fix.
11:59 moritz agentzh: fix the browsers *SCNR*
11:59 agentzh i think we should do some kind of repositioning at the end of load-time js handler.
12:00 agentzh not sure if location.hash='#_line_XX' is a solution.
12:00 agentzh it loops, it seems.
12:01 moritz whats .hash?
12:01 agentzh http://www.thescripts.com/forum/thread168192.html
12:01 lambdabot Title: javascript anchor help - JavaScript
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12:09 agentzh programming in javascript is a pain...
12:10 moritz yes, indeed
12:12 moritz I implemented an undo/redo function for my online sudokus - I can still feel the pain ;)
12:13 moritz and the functionality to use the arrow keys to navigate between different input boxes...
12:13 moritz I haven't managed it to get that working in all browsers
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12:13 agentzh i know that feeling...
12:21 agentzh okay, confirmed that location.hash works in IE and firefox.
12:22 agentzh @tell Aankhen`` i just don't understand why the window load event handler runs so many times while loading.
12:22 lambdabot Consider it noted.
12:42 svnbot6 r16277 | agentz++ | [smartlinks.pl]
12:42 svnbot6 r16277 | agentz++ | * explicitly reset location.hash in the JavaScript code
12:42 svnbot6 r16277 | agentz++ |   if there's an anchor in the url.
12:42 svnbot6 r16277 | agentz++ | now urls like S04.html#_line_53 should work precisely in
12:42 svnbot6 r16277 | agentz++ | both IE and firefox. reports for other flavors of
12:42 svnbot6 r16277 | agentz++ | browsers will be very appreciated. :)
12:52 agentzh now http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#_line_53 should locate itself exactly at the beginning of "Except for such formal parameter"
12:52 lambdabot Title: S04
12:54 agentzh if not, tell me your the name of your browser :)
12:54 agentzh s/your the/the/
12:54 moritz agentzh: works perfectly in konqueror, but not in iceweasel 2.0
12:54 agentzh moritz: thanks :)
12:56 moritz agentzh: when I enter the URL with anchor and hit enter, the anchor is loacted wrongly...
12:57 agentzh in iceweasel only?
12:57 moritz agentzh: but when I hit enter again in the URL bar, it works
12:57 moritz in konqueror it works without problems
12:57 agentzh gotcha.
12:58 agentzh google doesn't give me any clue regarding iceweasel's oddity...
12:58 moritz agentzh: you know that iceweasel is nearly firefox?
12:58 moritz it's just rebranded + debian patches
12:59 agentzh moritz: yes, i'm aware of.
12:59 agentzh that
12:59 agentzh my win32 port of firefox works fine.
12:59 moritz and links from other pages work as well
13:00 moritz so it's just an oddity that you can safely ignore ;)
13:00 agentzh i'd make some small changes to see if the problem can go away.
13:09 * agentzh pushes feather forward very hard.
13:09 svnbot6 r16278 | agentz++ | [smartlinks.pl]
13:09 svnbot6 r16278 | agentz++ | now we use location.hash = "#_line_XX" instead of
13:09 svnbot6 r16278 | agentz++ | location.hash = location.hash
13:09 svnbot6 r16278 | agentz++ | hopefully this is why iceweasel gives up repositioning.
13:09 agentzh updating the synopses on feather...it's slow...
13:09 moritz agentzh: tell me when it's done ;)
13:09 agentzh moritz: sure!
13:13 moritz damned caching, atm I can't test it
13:14 agentzh caching?
13:14 moritz browser cache
13:15 agentzh refreshing doesn't help?
13:15 moritz no, because after refreshing it worked previously as well ;)
13:15 agentzh oh
13:18 * agentzh misses the fast feather in those good old days.
13:19 agentzh although our test suite has now doubled, it shouldn't take years to process its smartlinks...
13:19 moritz perhaps we should rename it to "plumb"
13:19 agentzh lol
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13:25 agentzh moritz: S04 has been updated (but not others)
13:28 moritz *testing*
13:28 agentzh moritz: make sure you see the line "if ... location.hash = RegExp.lastMatch;" in the HTML source in case your browser cache is too smart.
13:29 agentzh s/smart/lazy/
13:29 moritz it does show up, and it works
13:29 moritz yay
13:30 agentzh hooray
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13:38 agentzh it's quite amusing to test the SXX:XXX links given by TimToady in the following log page
13:38 agentzh http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-05-10
13:38 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, http://tinyurl.com/2dbbj4
13:40 moritz ;)
13:40 agentzh S02:2775 is deviated by 1 line due to the =item * stuff while translating to HTML.
13:40 agentzh i think it's acceptable.
13:40 moritz yes
13:41 moritz and it will drift anyway as lines will be inserted and deleted
13:41 agentzh yup
13:41 moritz so it should be viewed as a rough estimate rather than an exact pointer
13:41 agentzh aye
13:44 agentzh S26.html current contains no line anchors because it uses a different POD parser (i.e. Perl6::Perldoc::Parser).
13:44 agentzh *currently
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13:44 moritz we could ask damian to include line numbers
13:45 agentzh right
13:45 agentzh and also API for updating the DOM tree
13:46 agentzh since i need to insert placeholders like _LINE_32_ into the POD DOM.
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13:48 moritz agentzh: can you write the email? I'm not so involved in the topic of POD parsing..
13:48 agentzh or...write a pod6 parser myself.
13:48 agentzh it needn't be complete. the current pod5 parser in smartlinks.pl is only ~30 lines or so.
13:49 agentzh moritz: sorry, lack the tuits right now. have a big deadline for my AI exam.
13:49 moritz agentzh: don't bother, it's not a pressing issue at all ;)
13:49 agentzh k
13:49 moritz agentzh: and good luck with your exam!
13:49 agentzh thanks!
13:49 * agentzh wanders off to review his AI textbook &
13:50 agentzh left #perl6
13:58 moritz ?eval sub prefix:<!> (Num $x) is tighter(&infix:<**>) { $x * 3 } !1**2
13:58 evalbot_r16278 changed the nick to evalbot_r16273
13:58 evalbot_r16278 3
13:59 moritz we need more tests ;)
14:00 rindolf Hi moritz
14:01 moritz hi rindolf
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14:32 * moritz pokes svnbot6
14:32 svnbot6 r16279 | moritz++ | added tests for "is tighter", "is looser", "is equiv" in
14:32 svnbot6 r16279 | moritz++ | t/operators/precedence.t
14:32 moritz hey, it worked ;)
14:34 moritz should these tests be in the operators/precedence.t or in blocks/sub_parameter_traits.t?
14:35 moritz wait, the are no parameter traits
14:41 rhr moritz: in the test, you have postfix:<!>, but you use it as a prefix op
14:43 moritz rhr: damned, you're right
14:44 svnbot6 r16280 | moritz++ | t/operators/precendence.t: fixed braino s/postfix/prefix/, rhr++
14:47 svnbot6 r16281 | moritz++ | perl6.vim: added subroutine traits and 'infix', 'postfix' etc.
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17:10 * diakopter summons audreyt auspisciously.
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17:14 moritz what should we do with a wannbe-conjurer? burn him? *g*
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19:36 diakopter moritz: :P
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19:40 wolverian Juerd, any progress on the load?
19:41 diakopter err, 'auspiciously' I meant
19:41 wolverian Juerd, a friend is suggesting to look at whether the io system is borking up
19:42 offby1 changed the nick to offby1`
19:44 Juerd wolverian: No progress
19:44 Juerd wolverian: How? I've tried vmstat, but that looks normal
19:45 wolverian so you know what it should look like? hm. no idea then.
19:45 wolverian (the problem with vmstat is that you need a reference figure to compare against)
19:53 wolverian Juerd, have you looked for rootkits? :/
19:53 Juerd wolverian: Hm.
19:53 Juerd No.
19:53 Juerd Hadn't even thought of it
19:53 Juerd But it's of course very much possible, with so many local users
19:54 Juerd My god, chkrootkit is slow )
19:54 Juerd :)
19:54 wolverian a good rootkit wouldn't even show up in top
19:54 wolverian heh
19:54 Juerd I know. I didn't think of it this time because I kind of trust these dozens of people I never met before, better than I trust my own clients.
19:55 wolverian well, it could have been a service hole too.. though I trust debian as well.
19:55 wolverian (but not blindly)
19:55 Juerd chkrootkit found nothing
19:57 wolverian hm.
19:58 wolverian Juerd, is the load high even if you kill the various bots and services?
19:58 Juerd Yes, as soon as it starts doing something substantial
19:59 Juerd Like a backup, distupgrade, heavy CGI thing like jifty
19:59 Juerd compiling, loading irssi (but when loaded, it's fine)
19:59 wolverian have you looked at top with threads enabled?
19:59 wolverian (press H)
20:00 wolverian that is a lot of pugs threads..
20:00 Juerd Doesn't reveal anything special in my view
20:00 Juerd Sure, but the pugs things aren't very active
20:00 Juerd A machine that's mostly 80% idle shouldn't have a load of 5
20:01 Juerd I/O is mostly idle too
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20:01 wolverian hm
20:01 wolverian when I look at it, pugs jumps to the top every five seconds or so
20:01 wolverian with 100% cpu
20:01 Juerd Yes, but that's not all day
20:02 Juerd And still with 100% cpu, I don't expect such a high load
20:02 wolverian ah, okay.
20:02 wolverian true enough
20:02 Juerd I do see that AGAIN, people don't nice their non-interactive processes
20:03 wolverian hm.
20:04 evalbot_r16281 changed the nick to evalbot_r16278
20:04 Juerd And I've specifically asked one of these people several time
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20:06 wolverian I guess I want to see some cpu and io graphs
20:06 wolverian processes waiting for io
20:06 Juerd Do you know how to get those graphs?
20:07 wolverian gnome-system-monitor... ;)
20:07 * wolverian is terribly noob at server administration
20:17 wolverian I wonder if dstat would help
20:22 Juerd gnome-system-monitor doesn't say which processes are waiting for io
20:22 wolverian that's true. sorry.
20:23 wolverian I was just thinking of graphs there
20:25 Juerd Do you know what dstat's "csw" means?
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20:28 wolverian Juerd, no.
20:28 justatheory joined #perl6
20:31 wolverian Juerd, context switches, proabbly.
20:31 wolverian probably
20:31 Juerd Ah
20:32 Juerd Is ~450 okay? :P
20:32 * Juerd has no idea how to read these values
20:32 wolverian my desktop has 1452
20:32 * wolverian neither
20:33 Juerd I like dstat though
20:33 Juerd It's a nicer tool than vmstat and iostat
20:34 wolverian yes
20:34 wolverian it doesn't show anything suspicious here though
20:34 wolverian I wish this was solaris
20:34 Juerd I have ~850 csw on my laptop
20:34 wolverian it has proper io accounting
20:35 Juerd That by itself isn't a good reason to run solaris
20:35 Juerd I don't think solaris would make a great platform for feather :)
20:35 wolverian right, but I wish linux had its iostat :)
20:36 wolverian I can't think of anything else
20:36 wolverian either it's a rootkit or it's processes waiting for io
20:36 wolverian since the cpu is idle
20:37 Juerd Nothing is actually doing any significant io though
20:37 wolverian I want to ask "how much time is spent waiting for the spindles to move"
20:37 wolverian unsurprisingly I can't ask that in linux
20:37 wolverian that's a bit pessimistic
20:38 wolverian the io stats just suck.
20:39 wolverian hm, the uptime is now down to 0.2
20:39 wolverian er..  load
20:39 wolverian aaand now it's back to over 1. oh well.
20:40 wolverian a load of pugses lifted it again :)
20:40 wolverian (a plural of a plural there)
20:40 wolverian and I guess I should have said s,load,pack,
20:43 PerlJam Why the microscopic attention to the load average?
20:43 wolverian because it's so high even when the machine is supposedly idle
20:43 wolverian I guess one could use sa(8) to look at total accounting information
20:44 PerlJam Even a mostly idle machine can have periodic fluxes in load average.
20:44 PerlJam load average is sort of like blood pressure.  It's only a problem if it's persistently high.
20:45 wolverian I understand that's exactly why we're looking into it. because it's persistently high.
20:45 wolverian unfortunately I'm not very good at it, so please help if you know how :)
20:45 PerlJam clearly not if it drops and then goes back up.  
20:45 PerlJam up and down is normal.  up and up and up is bad.
20:46 wolverian well, ask Juerd. maybe he did something that fixed it now. :)
20:46 Juerd PerlJam: Because it's constantly much higher than I'd expect, and many people complain about performance.
20:46 Juerd PerlJam: In fact, it's now under 1, for the first time in a week I guess
20:46 wolverian yeah.
20:47 Juerd I've slayed agentzh, who had a pugs compile running unniced, while not being logged in.
20:47 Juerd But I can't imagine that was the problem, a single compile
20:47 Juerd And load's at 4.77 again now.
20:47 PerlJam Hmm.
20:47 wolverian all I see in top are andara's and audrey's pugs
20:48 wolverian I don't know how to read the thread information, but a screenful of them all at 99% looks scary :)
20:48 PerlJam top is a very blunt tool for diagnosing load problems.
20:48 PerlJam (unfortunately I don't know of a finer tool right off)
20:48 Juerd Yes.
20:49 PerlJam I wonder what pugs does while idling?
20:49 PerlJam Perhaps there are some Haskell-related GC going on periodically.
20:49 Juerd PerlJam: Whoa, numerous ALRMs apparently
20:50 wolverian ow.
20:50 PerlJam strange
20:50 Juerd Yep, constant ALRM and INTs
20:50 Juerd For every idle pugs process
20:50 Juerd igreturn()                             = ? (mask now [])
20:50 Juerd futex(0x8946660, FUTEX_WAIT, 33503, NULL) = -1 EINTR (Interrupted system call)
20:50 Juerd --- SIGALRM (Alarm clock) @ 0 (0) ---
20:50 Juerd repeated
20:50 Juerd I don't know which one comes first.
20:52 PerlJam the trick is figuring out if those are endemic to long-running ghc processes or just pugs
20:52 Juerd What is endemic?
20:53 Juerd Hm, things are fast now
20:53 wolverian e.g. an endemic disease; related to a specific people or locale
20:53 Juerd So it may indeed have been agentzh's processes
20:53 wolverian or process ;)
20:53 PerlJam um ... endemic is like characteristic
20:54 wolverian how about andara's and audrey's?
20:54 wolverian do they behave similarly?
20:54 Juerd Yes
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20:54 Juerd Though they do different things while the signals come in
20:55 Juerd andara's pugses do ioctl()s, audrey's do futex()s
20:55 Juerd But both get a constant flood of ALRMs
20:55 Juerd That's a lot of signals.
20:55 wolverian ghci does the same thing
20:56 Juerd I don't know if it's bad
20:56 PerlJam it may not be bad per se, but it might be bad for feather
20:56 Juerd At some level I think an OS should just deal with it.
20:56 wolverian well, perl -d0 doesn't do it ;)
20:57 Juerd That waits for user input
20:57 wolverian so does ghci
20:57 Juerd So it probably select()s
20:58 PerlJam hmm. ghc may have a poor IO model
20:59 lichtkind moritz: hi grad wach?
20:59 moritz lichtkind: ja, aber kaum zeit
21:00 Juerd Deutsch ist schwer :)
21:00 lichtkind schade wollt aber eh nur kurz was loswerden
21:00 lichtkind wegen dem tutorial kam grad nach hause
21:01 lichtkind moritz: hast schon angefangen?
21:01 moritz lichtkind: womit?
21:01 Juerd pugs processes get approx 18 ALRM signals per second
21:01 lichtkind moritz:  dein  tutorial
21:02 moritz lichtkind: ja klar, ist schon auf meiner seite
21:02 Juerd Heh, would this still be the old 18.2 thing?
21:03 wolverian 18.2?
21:03 Juerd Yeah, something about 18.2 ticks in a cpu second
21:03 Juerd When I still coded in BASIC, this was a big thing, because it meant the finest granularity in sleeps was 55 ms
21:03 Juerd ?eval 1/18.2
21:03 evalbot_r16281 5/91
21:03 wolverian yes, that's the basic timer granurality
21:03 Juerd Sigh
21:03 wolverian ..granularity
21:04 Juerd It can't be a coincidence that these pugs processes get approx 18 sigalrms per second, right? :)
21:04 Juerd That's as fast as it gets probably
21:04 PerlJam It's probably trying to generate more than 18/sec but that's all that can be processed.
21:04 PerlJam right.  Not a coincidence
21:04 Juerd That sounds like a very, very tight event loop...
21:05 wolverian event loops are supposed to wait for io...
21:05 wolverian surely..? :)
21:05 PerlJam Tell audrey and I'm sure she'll know exactly what to change to make it better ;-)
21:06 Juerd audreyt: ping
21:06 Juerd I wonder if she'll pong
21:07 * PerlJam wanders off to prepare for a 3 hour journey
21:07 lichtkind moritz wollt halt eigentlich nur sagen das ich mein tutorial leicht umarbeiten will das es nicht unbedingt perl5 vorausgestzt wird aber es wird halt kein kurs programmieren lernen mit perl6 sondern schon eher ein komprimiertes lernen
21:07 audreyt it's the GHC microkernel
21:07 audreyt it has its own scheduler
21:07 audreyt which is preemptive
21:07 audreyt the ALRM signals are entirely normal
21:08 Juerd audreyt: Could they be the source of feather's bad performance?
21:08 Juerd I don't know what signals do to a system
21:08 mugwump ?eval 4.772727 / 65536 / 4
21:08 evalbot_r16281 4772727/262144000000
21:09 wolverian haha.
21:09 lichtkind audreyt++ for her last talk
21:09 Juerd But I can imagine that a dozen pugses all doing 18 signals per second, might have some effect
21:09 mugwump ?eval 4772727 / 65536 / 4
21:09 evalbot_r16281 4772727/262144
21:09 mugwump ?eval (4772727 / 65536 / 4)+0.0
21:09 evalbot_r16281 4772727/262144
21:09 audreyt Juerd: all GHC applications do that... I think it's fine, in particlar on linux. in Israel we suspected the same thing but avar(?)'s debugging showed it's false alarm
21:10 Juerd Okay
21:10 Juerd Nice pun btw :)
21:11 audreyt entirely unintentional
21:11 Juerd Still nice :)
21:11 Juerd And it's nice to see you're still here; I'm not active much, but see you much less than before when I am. How are you?
21:12 audreyt been hacking away at the local branch before talking about it :)
21:12 Juerd And how are you personally? :)
21:12 audreyt before today it was 8543 test cases 6500ish ok
21:12 audreyt 5 minutes ago it was 11436 test cases: 10006 ok, 1430 failed, 1024 todo, 770 skipped and 23 unexpectedly succeeded
21:13 moritz lichtkind: ich hab halt drei verschiedene Tutorials, unterschiedliche Zilgruppen haben...
21:13 audreyt still, the smoke clusters has it at 18603 test cases: 18085 ok
21:13 audreyt so still some ways to go before I can commitback
21:13 offby1 ave
21:13 audreyt (it's the pads+MO branch)
21:13 wolverian shiny.
21:13 Juerd Did you hack all day between before-today and 5 minutes ago? :)
21:13 moritz lichtkind: und ehrlich gesagt mir gefällt das layout des wikis überhaupt nicht, deshalb habe ich keine große Lust, darin mitzuhelfen... ein paar fixes vielleicht, aber kein großen neuen content ;)
21:13 audreyt Juerd: something close to it yes.
21:14 lichtkind moritz:  seh ich grad was ich nicht unbedingt ideal halte aber vielleicht kann ich dir trotzdmem bei der seite helfen
21:14 Juerd audreyt++
21:14 audreyt and the night before, actually
21:14 moritz lichtkind: hilfe ist immer wilkommen... wenn du willst geb ich dir zugang zum svn
21:14 lichtkind moritz:  wir können sie ja auch bei dir reinstellen
21:14 audreyt it's good that smoke tests doesn't lie ;) because it forced several rewrites ;)
21:14 Juerd lichtkind, moritz: Could you please use a query or speak English here?
21:15 moritz Juerd: sorry, yes
21:15 moritz lichtkind: are you in #perlde on irc.perl.org?
21:15 * Juerd stupidly wrote that sentence in German first...
21:15 lichtkind moritz:  no
21:16 lichtkind Moritz i first finish second part of my perl6 article for foo magazine
21:16 moritz lichtkind: I'd like to discuss it at some other time anyway, perhaps I'll send you a mail, or ping you sometimes next week
21:16 * Juerd himself is bad at context switching, specifically between languages
21:16 moritz ok, so no need for hurry
21:16 lichtkind k
21:20 Juerd I killed 10 or so idle pugses
21:20 Juerd And although I like to believe that the sigalrms don't do much, it did make performance better
21:22 audreyt pugs's own event loop may be cpu consuming a lot.
21:22 audreyt if it's stuck in some while loop or so
21:22 Aankhen`` Okay, first draft of Perl6::Perldoc::To::Html is done. :-D Now to begin the debugging cycle.
21:22 lambdabot Aankhen``: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:22 Aankhen`` @messages
21:22 lambdabot agentzh said 9h 5s ago: i just don't understand why the window load event handler runs so many times while loading.
21:23 Juerd audreyt: it's not cpu or io, at least not measurable by the usual tools (top, iostat)
21:23 Aankhen`` @tell agentzh That's strange, the `load` handler should only be running once.
21:23 lambdabot Consider it noted.
21:23 wolverian Aankhen``, what's wrong with To::Xhtml? :)
21:23 audreyt nod. ok then.
21:23 Aankhen`` wolverian: It's XHTML. :-)
21:23 Juerd audreyt: I've re-enabled trac
21:23 audreyt k
21:24 wolverian Aankhen``, ...that's bad? ;)
21:24 Aankhen`` wolverian: In this context, it's pointless.
21:24 Juerd audreyt: Let's see how this goes. Currently it returns pages within a few seconds. That's better than a few minutes, at which it was before
21:24 wolverian Aankhen``, hm. why?
21:24 Aankhen`` wolverian: XHTML = 0 benefits, larger code size, and treated as tag soup by the browser since it's being sent as text/html.
21:25 wolverian Aankhen``, oh. holy war, then. :)
21:25 Aankhen`` LOL.
21:25 Juerd XHTML is useful only if you're combining it with other XML stuff.
21:25 Juerd Like SVG
21:25 Juerd Or XSL
21:25 wolverian or mathml.
21:25 Juerd Right
21:25 Aankhen`` Well, ::To::Xhtml is fine, but to satisfy myself I'm writing ::To::Html.
21:25 Aankhen`` Aye.
21:25 Juerd But it's utterly useless just as an html replacement.
21:25 Aankhen`` Yup.
21:26 Juerd In fact, it's downright annoying to me.
21:26 Aankhen`` Same here.
21:26 Aankhen`` Hence ::To::Html
21:26 lichtkind moritz:  maybe i start with some blog posts there
21:26 Aankhen`` Okay, shower time.
21:26 * Aankhen`` wanders off.
21:26 wolverian I have high hopes for xhtml2, which is remarkably sane, but it goes the way of xhtml1 because IE won't implement it. oh well.
21:26 Juerd I write my html by hand, and don't like to use a gazillion quotes where they were previously unneeded
21:26 Juerd Quotes around integers feel wrong anyway.
21:26 Juerd wolverian: Let's first have hope for xml2
21:27 Juerd Because xml is the greatest downside of xhtml.
21:27 avar xhtml is not pointless, you can parse it with xml parsers which are a dime a dozen, instead of a much more complex sgml parser
21:27 Juerd Many of its issues are irrepairable because it depends on xml1
21:27 Juerd avar: I implied that
21:27 wolverian what's wrong with xml1?
21:27 Juerd avar: But the sgml parser already exists, and there's no noticeable difference in speed for the user.
21:27 Juerd wolverian: Syntax.
21:28 Juerd wolverian: Mostly, to me personally, quotes and closing tags.
21:28 wolverian Juerd, yeah. vim's xhtml mode helps _a lot_. :)
21:28 wolverian and running the file through gnu tidy ;)
21:28 wolverian (xhtml mode ne html mode)
21:28 wolverian (ne xml mode)
21:29 Juerd wolverian: How does one enable that?
21:29 wolverian :set filetype=xhtml
21:29 Juerd What does it do except colour?
21:29 Khisanth and what does it do?
21:29 wolverian e.g. <foo>> inserts <foo>\nindentation\n</foo>
21:29 wolverian I think it also adds omnicompletion, but not sure.
21:29 Juerd Doesn't for me.
21:30 wolverian maybe I got it from vim.org
21:30 Khisanth doesn't do it for me either
21:30 Juerd I just write html and when I need it to be xhtml, i postprocess it.
21:30 wolverian yeah. it's not a core script.
21:30 Juerd width="123" sucks.
21:30 Juerd width=123 feels much better both to mind and hands.
21:31 wolverian http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1397
21:31 lambdabot Title: xml.vim - helps editing xml (and [x]html, sgml, xslt) files : vim online
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21:37 lichtkind tscha
21:38 Juerd wolverian: <img></img> isn't very useful though
21:38 Juerd And I still need to quote integers myself
21:41 wolverian it shouldn't do that if you type <img />, surely. and yeah. that's more of gnu tidy's job.
21:41 wolverian I don't need to write attributes with numbers much
21:41 Juerd Why should *I* have to type that /?
21:41 Juerd Wasn't the cool thing about DTDs that they could indicate EMPTY?
21:42 Juerd XML is only user friendly with a full blown schema-and-dtd-supporting xml editor, which vim is not
21:44 moritz xml is mainly intended to be written and parsed by computers, not humans
21:44 Juerd It's utterly verbose for a computer language.
21:45 Juerd So I don't believe this.
21:46 Juerd And, I want to type my own html
21:46 Juerd Because all software sucks at doing it.
21:46 moritz same for me
21:48 wolverian well, I agree.
21:48 wolverian I don't write much (x)html, which is why I don't feel the pain so much, I suppose.
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21:50 moritz well, nearly all of my html is xhtml 1.0 strict, and it's just a matter of getting used to it
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