Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-05-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:08 DarkWolf84 joined #perl6
00:12 pbuetow joined #perl6
00:50 nipotan changed the nick to nipotaway
00:52 B0HR1 joined #perl6
01:02 jrockway B0HR1: try to be civil, please
01:02 B0HR1 fuck you jrockway
01:03 B0HR1 you got me banned in #perl
01:03 B0HR1 i'm not saying a thing in #perl6 due to my own consideration
01:03 Juerd This is not #perl.
01:03 Juerd If you're not here for Perl 6 stuff, please do leave.
01:03 B0HR1 this is not #perl.  i'm not saying anything here.
01:04 B0HR1 i'm a fan of anything perl
01:04 buu Juerd: He was accusing people of not using perl6 because of audrey's sexuality in #perl. He was then banned.
01:04 Juerd buu: Could you add some parens so I know how to read that?
01:05 wolverian meh. trolls these days. no class at all.
01:05 Juerd Big precedence issue there.
01:05 buu Juerd: Which part is confusing?
01:05 jrockway Juerd: in #perl == location of accusing, sexuality == reason for not using perl6
01:05 Juerd buu: because of--relates to accusing people, or to not using perl 6?
01:06 jrockway anyway, i think it would be best to drop the subject
01:06 Juerd Probably
01:06 B0HR1 i'm not saying a thing while son of a bitch jrockway frothing his mouth
01:06 jrockway the people in question don't need their time wasted with this shit
01:06 B0HR1 then demand civility
01:06 Juerd B0HR1: You are saying things here, and frankly what you say makes me a bit angry.
01:06 Juerd The way you say it isn't great either
01:06 B0HR1 i have to defend myself out of neccesity
01:06 jrockway B0HR1: please either sit back and listen or contribute intelligently
01:07 jrockway perl6 will be released faster if *you* help
01:23 B0HR1 left #perl6
01:23 meppl gute nacht
01:32 jrockway guess he got bored :)
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02:01 rhr Juerd: does feather swap much?  swapstorms could cause what you're seeing
02:02 rhr processes in R or D state contribute to loadavg, you can find them with ps uaxw|grep ' [RD][ slLN<+]'
02:03 rhr also, 18/sec timer tick hasn't been around for years, it's either 100, 250, or 1000Hz
02:04 rhr actually they're in the process of eliminating periodic ticks altogether
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02:20 Khisanth changed the nick to khisanth_
02:30 rhr Juerd: anyway, next time the load spikes just do: while :; do ps uaxw|grep ' [RD][ slLN<+]'; done  (from a reniced root shell) it gives a much clearer picture than top of what's chewing cpu or getting stuck in io
02:31 jrockway why in a while loop?
02:32 rhr to catch things that only run for a little while, top misses a *lot*
02:32 jrockway ah, i see
02:33 jrockway i might have to run that on our work dev server, which routinely has load averages of 3000-5000 for no apparent reason
02:33 rhr wow
02:33 jrockway (other than 60 developers with their own apache + huge mod_perl app)
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02:48 Khisanth jrockway: lots to short lived processes?
02:48 jrockway no idea
02:48 jrockway fortunately i am not a sysadmin, so i get to complain without trying to fix the problem ;)
02:48 jrockway the sysadmins are uber-incompetent, that's probably the problem
02:49 jrockway we have a huge app that uses no CPAN modules because apparently the sysadmins didn't know how to setup CPAN (and admittedly the early developers weren't that bright either)
02:49 jrockway now we just copy the CPAN modules into our app because the sysadmins won't install them
02:49 jrockway (etc.)
02:49 jrockway it's painful
02:49 Khisanth things seem to crawl even at 10, I don't think I would have the patience for 3000
02:49 jrockway it sucks at 3000
02:49 jrockway even at 1 it's terribl
02:50 jrockway it takes about 15 seconds to load a static page
02:50 Khisanth I can tolerate 2 :)
02:50 jrockway imagine how fun the debugging cycle is (with no unit tests of course)
02:50 Khisanth I think we are living in the same world :)
02:50 jrockway i'm trying to move everything to my workstation; much easier
02:50 Khisanth well mine is slightly better!
02:50 jrockway unfortunately that has to be windows because we have a dumbass VPN at work
02:50 jrockway they go out of their way to make it impossible to write good software, sadly
02:51 * jrockway <-- slightly bitter
02:51 Khisanth s/slightly/much/
02:51 * Khisanth is playing around with Catalyst :)
02:52 Khisanth I guess you aren't using that for work? Catalyst and no modules seem like a match made in Hell
02:53 jrockway yeah, we use mason
02:54 jrockway it's basiclly PHP with perl syntax
02:54 jrockway very depressing
02:54 Khisanth it almost sounds like we work for the same company :)
02:54 jrockway i unfortunately started programming professionally right when frameworks were becoming popular, so i never really experienced the horrors of "web 1.0" websites
02:55 * jrockway is performics / doubleclick (now google)
02:55 Khisanth I don't think Mason is that terrible, I mean you don't HAVE to mix stuff like that ...
02:55 jrockway right
02:55 jrockway we're trying to factor things out into modules
02:55 jrockway but everyone is very junior and just plain can't program
02:55 jrockway (not everyone, but the bulk of people that write code everyday)
02:56 buu jrockway: Come play with us
02:56 buu We're way cooler.
02:56 Khisanth impossible, you're there!
02:57 jrockway Khisanth: ah, but people that know how to program have meetings all day
02:57 jrockway plus i have to work against the coworkers that don't know how to program
02:57 jrockway it sort of sucks
02:57 Khisanth that makes no sense at all do they really enjoy the meetings?
02:57 jrockway i don't understand meetings
02:58 jrockway imagine spending 2 hours talking about what day to have a "test driven development" training session
02:58 jrockway uh oh that paves the way for a new rant
02:59 jrockway so a few weeks ago we paid some consultant to come in and talk about TDD
02:59 Khisanth I thought you said there were not unit tests?
02:59 jrockway i'm getting there :)
02:59 Khisanth s/not/no/
02:59 jrockway i capitalized on the "testing excitement" and said "we can't do TDD if nobody knows that Test::More is"
02:59 jrockway so for the next 3 weeks, we're having training for all perl devs to learn how to test
02:59 jrockway which is great
02:59 jrockway unfortunately
02:59 jrockway this week the guy is coming back to teach us how to write tests
03:00 jrockway except he only knows java
03:00 jrockway and none of the devs here even know what a test is
03:00 jrockway can you say, poor planning?
03:00 jrockway *sigh*
03:00 Khisanth this sounds very confusing
03:00 Aankhen`` Ouch.
03:00 jrockway mangement thinks that paying some consultant will magically write tests for us
03:01 Khisanth only if you are paying the consultant to write tests!
03:01 jrockway i say we should learn the syntax first, and then tweak our skills after we've gotten some experience with Test::* and friends
03:01 jrockway Khisanth: exactly, we're not :)
03:01 jrockway he is providing small-group training sessions
03:01 jrockway training = "here's how i would test your code"
03:02 jrockway it's really going to be a nightmare since all of our logic is in mason
03:02 jrockway and we have a homegrown ORM
03:02 Aankhen`` Double ouch.
03:02 jrockway which ... uh ... i'm not even going to comment on
03:02 jrockway it's really weird
03:02 jrockway most of the developers have never heard of "refactoring"
03:02 jrockway they don't know that programmers NEVER cut-n-paste
03:02 jrockway i guess... nobody ever told them that?
03:03 jrockway it's scary.
03:03 jrockway i'm mostly sticking around to accumulate capital for a consulting company or something :)
03:05 jrockway google just bought us, which could be good... but C++/Java/python suck pretty hard... *sigh*
03:06 Khisanth C++ and Java? I guess it's not so bad that I have no chance of getting hired by Google :)
03:07 jrockway google is not that great
03:07 jrockway they don't pay very well
03:07 jrockway you're stuck in a cube all day
03:07 jrockway the code is a mess
03:08 jrockway it's pretty depressing, i'm told
03:08 Khisanth that does sound inferior to current situation
03:08 jrockway (i won't know for another few months)
03:08 jrockway cubes suck for developers... worst idea ever
03:08 Khisanth which isn't really bad :)
03:09 Khisanth just slightly messy code
03:14 jrockway i think the key to good code is working someplace where all the software is haskell or lisp :)
03:14 jrockway people that write bad code don't tend to be interested in those langauges :)
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03:28 rhr ?eval sub baz(Code $x, *@y) { $x.(@y) } baz { say @^x } , 1, 2, 3
03:28 evalbot_r16282 changed the nick to evalbot_r16281
03:28 evalbot_r16282 OUTPUT[123␤] Bool::True
03:29 rhr TimToady: it looks to me like Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm doesn't allow the space before the , there, is that right?
03:29 rhr i.e. it has to be unspace?
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03:30 rhr ?eval sub baz(Code $x, *@y) { $x.(@y) } baz { say @^x }\ , 1, 2, 3
03:30 evalbot_r16282 Error: ␤Unexpected ","␤expecting "."
03:35 rhr in fact, shouldn't I need a ; before I call the sub?
03:35 rhr or \n
03:40 spinclad heh. that does look like { $x.(@y) } is taken as the last arg of &sub; i expect that's how it's parsed; le'me see if that's what the synopses say.
03:43 rhr how is S04:167 implemented in Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm? agentzh++
03:45 rhr the endlist part of token block allows anything, no?
03:57 spinclad yes, S04:167 applies, in that C< sub ... {...} baz ... > is two terms in a row.
03:58 spinclad i think you're right, there.
03:58 rhr yep, I'll trust S04 here
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04:29 svnbot6 r16283 | rhr++ | Add tests for space/unspace after blocks
04:49 audreyt changed the nick to audreyt_
05:01 offby1 changed the nick to offby1`
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05:17 svnbot6 r16284 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/script]
05:17 svnbot6 r16284 | agentz++ | - niced all the shell commands demanded by Juerd++
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05:53 rhr ?eval sub named_array2(:@x, @y) { (+«@x, 42, +«@y) }; named_array2(:x, :x)
05:53 evalbot_r16284 changed the nick to evalbot_r16282
05:53 evalbot_r16284 Error: Missing required parameters: @y
05:53 rhr should the second :x bind @y to (:x), or is it an error?
05:55 rhr I'll write the test assuming it should succeed, let me know if that's wrong...
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06:02 rhr ?eval sub named_array2(:@x, @y) { (+«@x, 42, +«@y) }; named_array2(1, 2)
06:02 evalbot_r16284 (42, 1)
06:03 rhr is that what it's supposed to do?
06:18 svnbot6 r16285 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/script]
06:18 svnbot6 r16285 | agentz++ | - more nice :)
06:30 svnbot6 r16286 | rhr++ | Add tests for foo(:x, :x) and foo(:x, (:x)) type stuff
06:32 rhr @tell TimToady could you check the tests marked XXX in t/blocks/sub_named_params.t for correctness?  thanks!
06:32 lambdabot Consider it noted.
06:34 Juerd rhr: Reniced root shell isn't even needed; the box stays responsive!
06:34 Juerd rhr: But thanks a lot for the hint!
06:35 Juerd rhr: And nope, it doesn't swap at all. Once it starts swapping, it's just half an hour away from dieing
06:37 rhr good to hear it's doing better :)
06:39 Juerd Killing idle pugs processes helped
06:39 Juerd I don't know if the constant sigalrms they had, or something else, kept the system boiling
06:39 Juerd But it wasn't visible on any of my radars (top, vmstat, iostat, dstat)
06:40 Juerd Yet killing them did help instantly
06:41 rhr yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that was the problem
06:42 Juerd I'm partially surprised
06:42 rhr things can get synchronized so they always run when top's alseep, so you never see them
06:42 Juerd You'd think a performance should show up somewhere, as cpu load, or as io load
06:42 Juerd But the box could be 85% idle and still be slow.
06:43 Juerd s/performance/performance problem/
06:43 rhr cpu load is very hard to calculate accurately...
06:43 Juerd And smart people like audreyt and some people over in #haskell said it wasn't the problem, and that it was benchmarked before
06:44 agentzh joined #perl6
06:44 Juerd Hi agentzh
06:44 Juerd agentzh: Thanks for nicing your processes
06:44 agentzh Juerd: hi, now only cp and cd are not nice'd.
06:44 lambdabot agentzh: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:44 agentzh :)
06:45 agentzh in case you think there is a need...
06:45 Juerd agentzh: You could just have used a single wrapper :P
06:45 Juerd I don't think there is
06:46 agentzh right, from cron table.
06:46 Juerd e.g.
06:49 iblechbot joined #perl6
06:51 Juerd audreyt: Please nice evalbot, svnbot, and svk (if only at "1", that's better than "0")
06:51 audreyt Juerd: please nice them for me
06:52 svnbot6 r16287 | agentz++ | update-syn - no longer nice individual commands, we now nice the whole script from cron.
06:52 Juerd audreyt: o
06:52 Juerd audreyt: ok
06:53 franck__ joined #perl6
06:53 audreyt I had niced them at 20 before but apparently missed that from the prev start
06:54 audreyt so 20 is just fine
06:54 gugod joined #perl6
06:55 * agentzh uses 5.
06:55 Juerd 5, 10, 20, as long as non-interactive processes don't get
06:55 Juerd <= 0, it's fine :)
06:56 Juerd 20 may be a bit overkill
06:56 * agentzh grins.
06:56 dduncan audreyt, haven't read you here in awhile ... how are things in general with you?
06:56 audreyt dduncan: family health issues has been dominoeing
06:57 audreyt so did not get much hack cycle
06:57 dduncan that's unfortunate ... I hope the health issues improve
06:57 audreyt they shall... I'm again @hospital atm
06:58 audreyt so will have to run in a bit
06:58 dduncan is it just other family members, or are you also unwell?
06:58 Juerd Does anyone have tuits to implement http://manuals.textdrive.com/read/book/8 on feather?
06:58 lambdabot Title: Running Trac on TxD |
06:59 audreyt aside from sleep deprivation and mild depression I think I'm doing rather well
06:59 audreyt also, hacking on 6.28.0 local branch helps
06:59 * audreyt is atm fixing the long-standing "$_ is not truly lexical" problem
06:59 dduncan that part's good, at least
06:59 audreyt yeah :)
06:59 agentzh audreyt: take care :)
07:00 audreyt will do :)
07:02 dduncan please keep us appraised regularly as you can or is appropriate
07:02 Tene Juerd: can you give a name/description to the task instead of that url?
07:02 Juerd Tene: Implement tracd and proxy apache2 to it
07:03 audreyt dduncan: will try to do better at this regard :)
07:03 Juerd trac currently uses cgi scripts, which are slow
07:03 Juerd Which is very noticeable in http://dev.pugscode.org/
07:03 lambdabot Title: Pugs - Trac
07:05 Tene Hmm.  Doesn't look too bad.
07:09 Tene I've never worked with trac before, though.
07:10 Tene Juerd: I could manage an hour or so of tuits right now.
07:11 Juerd Tene: Great
07:11 Juerd Tene: What's your feather login?
07:11 Tene I don't have an account on feather.
07:16 Juerd Let's get you one
07:16 Tene 'tene' is preferred.
07:16 Juerd Could you email your realname and preferred login to juerd@juerd.nl?
07:17 Tene I will.
07:17 Tene sent
07:23 Juerd Tene: You've got mail
07:23 agentzh wow, load average on feather drops to 1.02 :)
07:23 Tene wtf you're right!  are you spying on my inbox?!
07:24 rhr t/operators/precedence.t is saying "Test header seen more than once!"  does anyone know what that's about?
07:24 Juerd Tene: Oops. Pretend I said nothing.
07:24 agentzh rhr: TAP headers like "1..10"?
07:25 rhr agentzh: I don't understand
07:26 agentzh @google TAP
07:26 lambdabot http://www.flytap.com/
07:26 lambdabot Title: TAP Portugal
07:26 agentzh sigh
07:27 agentzh rhr: you're running prove6?
07:27 rhr yup
07:27 agentzh try prove6 -v t/.../.t ?
07:27 rhr that's what I'm running
07:27 agentzh it supports the -v option?
07:28 rhr yes
07:28 Juerd @google test anything
07:28 lambdabot http://search.cpan.org/dist/Test-Harness/lib/Test/Harness/TAP.pod
07:28 lambdabot Title: Test::Harness::TAP - Documentation for the TAP format - search.cpan.org
07:29 agentzh rhr: there's an extra 1..10 at the end of the TAP output.
07:29 agentzh sorry, i mean "1..42"
07:30 rhr yeah, where is that coming from?
07:30 rhr I see it when I run it with pugs
07:30 agentzh rhr: have you planned the test number?
07:30 rhr yeah, the plan is correct
07:31 rhr I don't see anything in the .t that should print that
07:31 agentzh looking
07:31 rhr let me commit some fixes first...
07:33 rhr look at r16289, it doesn't parsefail
07:33 agentzh k
07:35 * rhr kicks svnbot
07:37 rfordinal joined #perl6
07:40 agentzh it's interesting
07:41 Juerd ?eval 1+1
07:41 evalbot_r16288 changed the nick to evalbot_r16284
07:41 evalbot_r16288 2
07:42 Tene Juerd: what user should tracd run as?
07:42 agentzh rhr: debug Test.pm?
07:43 * agentzh currently doesn't have a good machine.
07:43 Juerd Tene: The user that used to execute the cgi, so you don't have to change permissions, or a new user of your choice, if you don't mind digging up which permissions need to be changed
07:43 rhr it must be Test.pm:306
07:43 agentzh rhr: nod
07:44 agentzh $Test::num_of_tests_planned should have been set by sub plan, but in case it has been destroyed by the tests or...
07:45 rhr yeah, but I don't see anything that could clobber it..
07:45 Tene Juerd: any preference on the port it should run on?
07:45 agentzh rhr: add a warn statement to Test.pm:306 ?
07:45 agentzh not sure if it helps.
07:46 Juerd Tene: < 7000
07:46 Tene kk
07:48 rhr agentzh: what kind of warning?  not sure what you mean
07:48 rhr is sub proclaim what gets run for each test?
07:49 agentzh yes
07:50 rhr k
07:52 rhr strange, adding
07:52 Tene Juerd: do you know what domain name trac wants for its realm?
07:53 rhr warn "XXX "~$Test::num_of_tests_run~"\n" to proclaim shows it stays defined
07:53 Juerd Tene: dev.pugscode.org
07:53 agentzh rhr: adding debugging code to proclaim may help tracing $Test::num_of_tests_planned's value.
07:53 rhr what else happens after all the tests are run?
07:53 rhr agentzh: that's what I just did :)
07:53 agentzh rhr: the END block triggers.
07:54 agentzh rhr: that's what END is for. :)
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07:54 OmegaKO changed the nick to DarkWolf84
07:55 rhr it's still 49 in END
07:55 rhr very strange
07:55 agentzh rhr: what if at the beginning of sub test_ends?
07:56 agentzh i mean the sub body
07:56 agentzh and it could be a bug in the defined builtin ;)
07:57 rhr yup, it's still 49 inside test_ends
07:57 agentzh then write a test for defined?
07:57 rhr how come this doesn't affect other tests!?!?
07:57 agentzh maybe defined dislikes 49?
07:57 * agentzh shrugs
07:58 agentzh or ! or if..
07:58 agentzh you can trace further :)
07:59 rhr I'm stumped
07:59 agentzh anyway
08:02 rhr ok, 16290 commits a fix that I don't understand at all
08:03 agentzh svnbot6 is not here, hence r16290
08:05 agentzh heh, it looks funny :)
08:05 agentzh rhr: write specific test for it?
08:05 agentzh (as long as you can reproduce it in a new context)
08:05 rhr I'll try, I haven't been able to reproduce yet
08:05 lichtkind joined #perl6
08:06 agentzh rhr++ # locating a subtle bug
08:09 rhr ?eval module XXX; my $x=2; if(!defined($XXX::x)) { say "wtf" }
08:09 evalbot_r16289 changed the nick to evalbot_r16288
08:09 evalbot_r16289 OUTPUT[wtf␤] Bool::True
08:09 rhr that's it
08:10 agentzh my?
08:10 Juerd $Foo::bar can refer to lexicals?
08:10 * agentzh doesn't think so.
08:10 Juerd Then why would it be defined?
08:10 rhr no, that's not it
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08:12 agentzh it's "$Test::num_of_tests_planned;" in Test.pm:18
08:12 rhr I honestly have no idea
08:12 agentzh ?eval module Foo; $Foo::x; $Foo::x = 49; if ! defined($Foo::x) { say "oops" }
08:12 evalbot_r16289 undef
08:14 agentzh it's much more complicated to reproduce than i thought. :(
08:15 * rhr agrees
08:15 agentzh ?eval module Foo; $Foo::x; sub bar { $Foo::x = 49; } bar(); if(!defined($Foo::x)) { say "oops" }
08:15 evalbot_r16289 undef
08:15 lichtkind le
08:15 * agentzh gives up.
08:16 agentzh maybe we should call bar() from another namespace. who knows?
08:16 agentzh or it may be a bug related to yaml precompilation.
08:16 rhr I'll add some more comments to Test.pm describing what's wrong
08:17 agentzh audreyt once said the yaml compilation stuff had some peculiarities.
08:17 Tene Juerd: potential problem.  you still around/
08:17 Tene ?
08:17 agentzh rhr: you have precompiled Test.pm to yaml, right?
08:19 agentzh the last bug i found in Test.pm in last summer was that END {} did not trigger at the exit time.
08:19 agentzh and it was related to yaml precompilation.
08:21 Tene @tell Juerd tracd uses a literal 'md5crypt' to check passwords in the htpasswd file.  Patching tracd to recognize the '{SHA}' sequence in the htpasswd file is an option?
08:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
08:22 rhr agentzh: yes, I'm precompiling.  let me try without...
08:22 agentzh rhr: cool
08:23 Tene @tell Juerd python-support/trac/trac/web/auth.py:268
08:23 lambdabot Consider it noted.
08:24 Juerd Tene: Certainly an option, please document it
08:24 lambdabot Juerd: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
08:24 rhr I still get a 1..49 not precompiled
08:24 agentzh rhr: okay
08:24 Juerd Tene: Consider sending the patch to the trac people, there are probably more who would benefit from this hack
08:24 BooK joined #perl6
08:24 rhr I changed config.yml and did make, that's all I needed to do, right?
08:24 agentzh rhr: no
08:25 rhr what else?
08:25 agentzh rhr: remove .yml in blib6/lib/
08:25 rhr k
08:25 agentzh or move them to other places.
08:25 agentzh in case there are more...a find -name *.yml may help.
08:25 agentzh or *.yaml
08:26 agentzh another way is use -I or set the env.
08:26 agentzh *to use
08:26 agentzh the latter is easier :)
08:26 Tene Okay, it looks like I get to learn python tomorrow.
08:27 rhr ok, I did find blib6/lib -name '*.yml' -exec rm {} \; make and I still get a 1..49
08:27 agentzh it runs much slower, is it?
08:28 rhr can't tell, it's a very fast machine
08:28 agentzh k
08:28 Tene Juerd: looks like there are three instances of trac libraries installed on feather (locate auth.py), which should I modify, or should I make a new copy elsewhere?
08:28 rhr should I do a make realclean to be sure?
08:28 agentzh rhr: one tip: bundle the old buggy Test.pm to t/ and write a test for it.
08:29 Juerd Tene: I have no idea which one(s) is/are in use
08:29 rhr good idea
08:29 Juerd Tene: Perhaps audreyt knows
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08:33 Tene http://dev.pugscode.org:6543/trac/ -- runs fine, just can't log in
08:33 lambdabot Title: Pugs - Trac
08:33 Tene I'll look into it tomorrow.  Sleep now.
08:40 agentzh rhr: morning or afternoon in your place?
08:41 rhr agentzh: err... 4:40am, but I woke up "today" at 9pm
08:41 rhr my sleep schedule is busted lately...
08:41 agentzh rhr: oh
08:42 agentzh rhr: lambdabot told me it was 4:39 and i was shocked.
08:42 rhr :)
08:43 rhr after a realclean and fresh make I still get a 1..49
08:43 agentzh rhr: okay, time to write a test for the buggy Test.pm :)
08:43 rhr what' the easiest way to run a different Test.pm?
08:43 agentzh rename it?
08:44 agentzh then use it?
08:44 agentzh that way you can't get confused yourself :)
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08:44 rhr do I need to make a new ext/Test-bug and s/Test/Test-bug/ everywhere within?
08:45 agentzh rhr: ext/ is not the right place for Test-bug
08:45 agentzh rhr: t/ is.
08:46 rhr ok.  does anything special need to be done to load a module from t/?
08:46 agentzh t/xx-uncategorized, maybe.
08:47 agentzh use t::blah::Foo?
08:47 agentzh not sure.
08:47 agentzh in perl 5, we can write use lib 'blah/blah'; or use blah::blah::Foo
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08:48 agentzh or write a .t which does a system call.
08:49 rhr I'll give it a try and see what foes wrong :)
08:49 agentzh system "$*EXCUTABLE_NAME -It/path/to/buggy/test-pm t/some/test.pl" or something like that.
08:49 rhr *goes
08:49 agentzh rhr++
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08:52 rhr hold on, I re-fixed Test.pm but I still got a 1..49 so it must still be using a precompiled one somehow...
08:52 agentzh ah
08:53 agentzh rhr: use the following command:
08:53 agentzh ./pugs -Iext/Test/lib t/operators/precedence.t
08:55 agentzh rhr: it works on feather and i didn't see the "1..14" stuff at the bottom.
08:56 rhr ok, hold on, I just started another fresh make... I had removed Test.pm from precompile_modules:, now I'm trying precompile_prelude: false
08:56 agentzh rhr: well, i believe you needn't do that...it's a bit overkill ;)
08:57 rhr but it must have been getting precompiled... or my fix no longer works?
08:58 agentzh it works on my side.
08:58 agentzh (my side == feather)
08:59 rhr yeah, I noticed the last smoke before mine at r16273 didn't show the problem
08:59 rhr mine was r16286
09:01 agentzh rhr: there is a trick to prevent using the wrong version of Test.pm
09:01 agentzh cd t
09:01 agentzh ../pugs -I../ext/Test/lib operators/precedence.t
09:02 rhr [106 of 112] almost there :)
09:02 agentzh rhr: how long does your smoke take?
09:02 agentzh 6 min?
09:02 rhr ~6.5 min
09:03 agentzh wow, a dual-core machine?
09:03 rhr 2xdual core xeon 3GHz
09:04 agentzh aha, mine is core2duo 2.4GHz, but it's at home.
09:04 rhr ok, ../pugs -I../ext/Test/lib operators/precedence.t shows no 1..49 now
09:04 agentzh rhr: nice
09:05 rhr and the unfixed gets no 1..49 either!
09:05 agentzh we need a tool that can updates Test.pm.yml.
09:05 rhr so it must be precompile
09:06 agentzh rhr: are you using the proper -I ?
09:06 agentzh or you're updating the same Test.pm?
09:07 rhr same command as before
09:07 agentzh okay, another yaml precompilation nit. :)
09:08 agentzh maybe gaal or audreyt or lumi or other haskell people can fix it soon
09:08 rhr yep, I haven't made a copy of Test.pm yet
09:08 rhr so a test won't show the bug :(
09:08 rhr unless it's precompiled somehow
09:09 agentzh rhr: save a copy of Test.pm and leave a note there.
09:10 rhr I'll leave the old code in the comments
09:10 agentzh when someone has the tuits to do some haskell hacking, direct him/her there. :)
09:10 rhr k
09:11 agentzh rhr: preferrably a whole copy since others may update Test.pm and change the context
09:12 agentzh well, it's just a suggestion
09:12 * agentzh goes to supper &
09:12 agentzh left #perl6
09:16 rhr wait a minute...when it was precompiled, I was able to insert debugging code in Test.pm and it was run, but the bug was still there
09:16 rhr and my change fixed the bug...so..WTF?!
09:17 * rhr cries in his soup
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09:46 rhr ok, I re-enabled precompiling for Test.pm and did a realclean in the hope that the bug was a one-off cosmic ray-type fuckup, and we could all just forget this ever happened
09:46 rhr but the bug is back
09:49 rhr this time editing Test.pm to re-enable my fix doesn't fix it, which is expected with precompiling
09:50 rhr so WTF was happening at the beginning of this fiasco?
09:51 rhr but ./pugs -Iext/Test/lib t/operators/precedence.t gets the fix as expected
09:52 rhr ./util/prove6 -v t/operators/precedence.t sees the bug again
09:52 rhr and that's what I was using at the beginning
09:56 * rhr gives up for the 3rd or 4th time
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10:07 audreyt prove6 uses the pugs in path
10:07 audreyt and hence will use the installed Test.pm.yml
10:07 audreyt usually in sitelib
10:08 rhr makes sense
10:11 rhr what's confusing is that when I was first debugging I wasn't using -I or anything, but I was able to insert debug statements that worked
10:12 rhr later testing seemed to show that the bug only occured when precompiled, but that doesn't jive with the above in any way
10:14 audreyt gotcha.
10:14 rhr it's too weird for my little brain
10:15 * audreyt is still backlogging
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10:16 audreyt ok, I think I get it
10:17 audreyt can you do a pugs -V and rm -rf the sitelibs and see if it occurs again?
10:19 rhr I never did make install, so there's no /usr/local/share/perl6, if that's what you mean
10:20 audreyt ok. do this:
10:20 audreyt find . | grep Test.pm.yml
10:20 audreyt in the pugs path
10:20 araujo joined #perl6
10:20 audreyt and see if there's more than one
10:20 rhr ./blib6/lib/Test.pm.yml
10:20 rhr that's it
10:21 rhr rm it?
10:21 audreyt yeah. "make blib6/lib/Test.pm.yml" can recreate it
10:21 audreyt but rm it for now and see of prove6 agrees with command line
10:21 audreyt *see if
10:22 rhr prove6 doesn't show the bug now
10:23 audreyt good. now make that .yml
10:23 audreyt and then run prove6 again
10:23 audreyt and see if it reoccurs
10:23 rhr k
10:23 rhr bug's back
10:24 audreyt ok, so it's precomp bug. you've commited all local changes?
10:24 audreyt it's known that precompilation can't deal with closures, nor END blocks
10:24 audreyt it's also fixed here ;)
10:24 rhr yes, no local changes
10:24 rhr did you ever see the bug?
10:25 audreyt ./pugs -Iblib6/lib t/operators/precedence.t
10:25 audreyt try that?
10:25 audreyt (with .yml intact)
10:25 rhr bug is present
10:25 audreyt ok, so it's not mysterious
10:25 rhr ok, I must have screwed something up
10:26 audreyt my local branch does not exhibit the bug with precomped Test.pm.yml
10:26 ddwagnz left #perl6
10:26 audreyt so I think the best course of action for me is simply to get some food, continue hacking tonight
10:26 rhr nobody has seen it but me...
10:26 audreyt and pushback ASAP :)
10:26 rhr audreyt++
10:28 audreyt afk, bbl
10:30 rhr ohhh, I'm an idiot! I was (of course) doing makes after my edits with the debugging, that's why it worked
10:30 rhr no mystery indeed
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10:39 rhr thought of something.  let me try a build in my 32bit chroot
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11:08 rhr hmm, nope.  bug is still present in 32bit build
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11:12 svnbot6 r16293 | rhr++ | Update comments in Test.pm; bug wasn't quite as mysterious as thought
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13:32 agentzh heh, glad to see audreyt speaking here :)
13:34 agentzh @tell Aankhen`` could you take a look at that load event handler when you have the tuits? it's indeed running 10+ or even 20+ times during a single loading. (location.hash = '...' is not the cause)
13:34 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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14:02 moritz re
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14:33 shafire hi
14:33 shafire when will be perl6 avialable?
14:33 masak shafire: by christmas.
14:34 moritz shafire: we don't know which christmas, though ;)
14:35 masak a better question would perhaps be: what would it take for it to be this christmas?
14:35 moritz if you prefer a more serious answer: hopefully next year ;)
14:35 moritz masak: a miracle? *SCNR*
14:35 shafire Haskell?
14:35 moritz well, that's one step
14:36 moritz but we want an offical perl6 implementation in perl6
14:36 masak shafire: I like that :)
14:36 moritz so one possibilty is to finish pugs, and then reimplement it in perl6
14:36 moritz shafire: do you want a commit bit?
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15:19 ifnotwhynot hello
15:21 moritz hi
15:27 ifnotwhynot hi moritz
15:27 ifnotwhynot are you the perl of the ocean?
15:28 moritz ifnotwhynot: no, I'm just a grain of sand at its shores ;)
15:29 ifnotwhynot oneday you will be a perl, its only time
15:29 ifnotwhynot is this the perl elite on mirc or just general chat?
15:30 [particle] yes
15:31 moritz ifnotwhynot: "this" is just a channel for perl 6 development - partly perl "elite", partly not
15:31 PerlJam Anyone who uses perl is elite if you ask me :)
15:31 [particle] mostly not :)
15:31 * moritz certainly isn't elite, just an interested user ;)
15:31 chris2 joined #perl6
15:31 moritz PerlJam: only if you compare it to PHP ;)
15:32 [particle] ifnotwhynot: wanna help implement perl 6? be a member of the perl elite?
15:32 [particle] GET A COMMIT BIT NOW!!!
15:32 [particle] free, for a limited time only*
15:32 [particle] *until the heat death of the universe
15:34 ifnotwhynot anyone want to help a perldummy(description- thought perl is pruduced by mother nature)
15:34 PerlJam ifnotwhynot: We'll help with perl 6 problems but your best bet for perl 5 problems is to try #perl or #perlhelp etc.
15:35 moritz #perlhelp is better than #perl for that matter, propably ;)
15:35 ifnotwhynot thx let me go bug them rather
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16:03 masak moritz: re larry quote "everyone wants the semicolon" -- you do indeed have it wrong: it was not the semicolon but the colon, and it was about everyone wanting to use it as part of new syntax for some proposed feature for perl6 during the RFC phase
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16:04 moritz masak: ok, thanks
16:12 rhandom I do like the semi-colon/period analogy though.  When I say semi-colon - you don't need to try and parse if the things that come next were in someway part of the current sentences.  It imposes finality.
16:13 rhandom I think with a well written recursive grammar they could be made optional - but at the loss of syntax errors for other common errors.
16:14 [particle] foo($a) if $b == 3 bar($c)
16:15 moritz rhandom: how on earth could you decide if 'foo bar' means 'foo() bar()' or 'foo(bar())'?
16:15 [particle] er... foo($a) if $b == 3 { bar($c) }
16:15 rhandom you can't disambiguate all cases
16:15 [particle] right
16:15 [particle] i'm agreeing, with code :)
16:16 [particle] perl 6 tries to disambiguate everything
16:16 moritz rhandom: but then intuitivity suffers
16:16 rhandom A year ago I wrote a TT3 (Template Toolkit) parser - in TT3 semi-colons on continued statements are optional.
16:16 rhandom However,
16:16 rhandom they are required if you need to disambiguate a post-operative directive which is the same thing as a statement modifier
16:17 rhandom So I do have a working, recursive TT3 grammar, that works without semi-colons - but you can use them as well.
16:18 moritz but is it worth the effort to do that for perl6?
16:18 rhandom Some cases you can't disambiguate without a semi-colon - but in those cases it would fall to the longest token rule.
16:18 rhandom Which is what the TT3 grammar does.
16:18 rhandom The foo($a) if $b == 3 { bar($c) } would be a parse error
16:19 rhandom because foo($a) if $b==3 was the longest token
16:19 moritz but { bar($c) } is allowed in "normal" code
16:19 rhandom you then found a bare block - which I guess isn't an error - but would instead run straight away
16:20 rhandom so like I said - you "could" optionally not require them - but at the loss of valuable syntax errors
16:20 rhandom that catch errors when you actually want them too.
16:20 rhandom By saying could, I don't mean that Perl 6 should make them optional
16:20 rhandom I'm more a fan of having them there
16:20 moritz rhandom: but then 'if' would nearlly always be parsed in the form "$statement if $cond"
16:21 moritz even when it's followed by a block
16:21 rhandom right - and in the TT grammar - you MUST put a semi-colon in that case
16:21 moritz ok
16:21 rhandom the case that you don't want it to be a post-operative directive
16:23 rhandom I personally prefer having the lines end with semicolons, or periods, or braces - it is a simple way to disambiguate that I don't really mean for anything else to follow.
16:24 moritz same for me
16:26 veritos joined #perl6
16:28 perlDreamer How do I get my SVN password reset?
16:29 perlDreamer I'm coming up on some spare time during $dayJob, and I'd like to work on the test suite.
16:29 fglock joined #perl6
16:30 moritz perlDreamer: I hope I can do it via commitbit
16:31 moritz if it would only answer...
16:31 moritz damned, I though feather's performance problems were mostly solved
16:32 veritos it's been taking me ~15s to open a shell
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16:34 moritz perlDreamer: I just sent the POST request to reset/resend your password
16:34 perlDreamer ++moritz.  Thank you very much.
16:35 perlDreamer It will be nice to hack for a project that appreciates tests again
16:35 moritz hopefully it will arrive before it times out
16:35 moritz oh yes, we do ;)
16:35 moritz and parrot does as well ;)
16:35 perlDreamer will it email me with instructions?
16:35 moritz I think so
16:35 moritz if not, you can ask again
16:35 perlDreamer that's cool, I heard the test suite is supposed to be broken out into its own distribution for cross-project use.
16:36 moritz well, the perl6 test suite currently is a bit pugs specific, and there is work going on to amend that
16:36 [particle] perlDreamer: that's a bit off
16:36 [particle] moritz is right
16:37 moritz and perl6 on parrot ("not onion") and perhaps kp6 might use parts of it
16:38 perlDreamer what is kp6?
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16:38 moritz perlDreamer: fglock++'s perl6 implementation in perl6
16:38 moritz uhm, in miniperl6 that is
16:38 [particle] "kinda-perl 6"
16:38 azawawi joined #perl6
16:39 [particle] kp6 is a subset of perl 6, built on mp6 (a smaller subset of perl 6)
16:40 perlDreamer so it bootstraps like lisp then
16:40 moritz its in v6/v6-KindaPerl6/ in the pugs repository
16:40 moritz s/its/it's/ # english--
16:41 [particle] perlDreamer: yes
16:47 moritz can somebody else please try to reinvite perlDreamer? my http proxy has fairly strict timeouts :(
16:48 [particle] trying now
16:48 moritz now it worked
16:48 [particle] okie
16:49 TimToady @massages
16:49 lambdabot rhr said 10h 17m 27s ago: could you check the tests marked XXX in t/blocks/sub_named_params.t for correctness? thanks!
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17:02 TimToady @tell rhr You're running into trouble with those tests because they're based on an illegal declaration.  Arguments are allowed in any order, but parameters are not.  Positionals must always be declared before named parameters.  See S06:581 and S06:619.
17:02 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:05 ingy hola
17:05 ingy TimToady: sorry for telespamming you the other day
17:05 ingy that was really weird
17:06 ingy I was so confused for a minute
17:06 kanru joined #perl6
17:06 rhr oops, I had thought I remembered reading that it was legal but ill-advised.  obviously not, I'll fix
17:06 lambdabot rhr: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:06 rhr @moosages
17:06 lambdabot TimToady said 3m 56s ago: You're running into trouble with those tests because they're based on an illegal declaration. Arguments are allowed in any order, but parameters are not. Positionals must
17:06 lambdabot always be declared before named parameters. See S06:581 and S06:619.
17:10 azawawi ?eval say "hello!";
17:10 evalbot_r16293 changed the nick to evalbot_r16289
17:10 evalbot_r16293 OUTPUT[hello!␤] Bool::True
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17:16 rhr TimToady: still a question.  I've changed the sub to named_array2(@x, :@y), what should named_array2(:y, :y) do?
17:16 svnbot6 r16294 | lwall++ | allow \h* between block and comma/colon
17:16 TimToady fail for lack of a positional
17:16 rhr k
17:17 TimToady also fixed your block vs comma question
17:20 rhr TimToady++
17:20 svnbot6 r16295 | rhr++ | Fixes to t/blocks/sub_named_params.t
17:26 moritz perlDreamer: did the mail arrive?
17:26 svnbot6 r16296 | rhr++ | Fix comma/colon after block in arglist tests
17:27 perlDreamer Yes, all 4 of them :).  Thanks, moritz.
17:27 the_dormant joined #perl6
17:27 moritz perlDreamer: ok, then olny the response timed out, not the request. I had no way of telling which one did ;)
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21:31 Tene Hmm.  Are there still microgrants available?
21:32 moritz I didn't hear of any more being used up
21:32 moritz so you'd have a good chance
21:32 Tene Looks like I'll be suddenly unemployed soon.
21:43 perlDreamer Are all of the tasks in t/TASKS up to date and still valid?
21:45 [particle] tene: yes, there's still a pile of money waiting
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22:05 Aankhen`` ?eval "\n".say
22:05 evalbot_r16296 changed the nick to evalbot_r16293
22:05 evalbot_r16296 OUTPUT[␤␤] Bool::True
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23:19 Limbic_Region anyone know where audreyt's presentation(s) are available for direct download - http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=615432
23:20 lambdabot Title: Re^2: What's wrong with Perl 6?
23:24 wolverian Limbic_Region, doesn't google video let you download?
23:26 moritz just use ``clive -y $youtube_url''
23:26 moritz damned, wrong one
23:28 moritz which presentation exactly?
23:31 Limbic_Region wolverian - if you read the note, there was a reason google video was suboptimal
23:32 moritz http://vp.video.google.com/videodownload?version=0&amp;secureurl=uAAAANE1IIWUNnNJ5VHY3QS-0TbsngSO89baaJ0qYWJvwqk7X-XYIhdkeEoySFfwPyjkb3EmQQNBFD4K5l1x9SUpk4-KrMF27WNcmoQXhQODyxpmzLXOpduRGh48AEHDGvnN6XskFbQNI985HEC49rMTUGjOxPM9dHKfm-voSCoxAZQTpVeXy9CHDwUR1-y7kAfXuZ9UUxwl0rcL3Ym9Hi0H9lGBUTKM5chvC0xSKQDr1MbiSZmf3IlJpcWo4kPDDZfKIg&amp;sigh=nhqOt7vXWUYWESUT3Fr9ZwLzN-8&amp;begin=0&amp;len=3360900&amp;docid=-3876155376103839772&amp;messagesUrl\u003dhttp://video.google.com/FlashUiStrings.x
23:32 lambdabot http://vp.video.google.com/videodownload?version=0&amp;secureurl=uAAAANE1IIWUNnNJ5VHY3QS-0TbsngSO89baaJ0qYWJvwqk7X-XYIhdkeEoySFfwPyjkb3EmQQNBFD4K5l1x9SUpk4-KrMF27WNcmoQXhQODyxpmzLXOpduRGh48AEHDGvnN6XskFbQ
23:32 lambdabot NI985HEC49rMTUGjOxPM9dHKfm-voSCoxAZQTpVeXy9CHDwUR1-y7kAfXuZ9UUxwl0rcL3Ym9Hi0H9lGBUTKM5chvC0xSKQDr1MbiSZmf3IlJpcWo4kPDDZfKIg&sigh=nhqOt7vXWUYWESUT3Fr9ZwLzN-8&begin=0&len=3360900&docid=-3876155376103839
23:32 lambdabot 772&messagesUrl\u003dhttp://video.google.com/FlashUiStrings.x
23:32 Limbic_Region that worked out well
23:32 moritz sorry about that
23:33 Limbic_Region besides, this isn't for me but for a monk on perlmonks
23:33 Limbic_Region replying there will help him and many more
23:33 moritz the link is "perl 6 today"
23:33 moritz and too damned long :(
23:34 * Limbic_Region wanders off
23:35 offby1 whatever happened to lambdabot's magical tiny-url-ification?
23:36 lumi It gave up in disgust?
23:37 moritz perhapos tinyurl doesn't handle URLs that long ;)
23:37 lumi That's what I said! :)
23:38 moritz http://tinyurl.com/ypuwv5
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