Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-05-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:48 dduncan fyi, I made a p6l post proposing an alteration to how the @ and % sigils are used ... feedback there is appreciated
00:52 Juerd Didn't like it, because much of the present day expressive power for sigils is in signatures
00:52 Juerd And I expect signatures to play a big role.
00:53 nipotan changed the nick to nipotaway
00:54 dduncan my impression was that the current use of @foo and %bar was rather limited situations, and that @$foo or %$foo are a fine or superior alternative
00:54 dduncan in the same places
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00:58 dduncan so then, @$foo would just be the new spelling for @foo in places where the distinction matters ... while that is longer, the @ isn't used everywhere the variable name is, just in the minority of places where it has something to say
00:58 dduncan you lose nothing
01:37 obra timtoady++ # Language design is hard.  Let's go shopping!  :-)
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03:12 perlDreamer in t/TASKS there's a task for removing all the :todo marks and marking the tests as failing or using todo subs.
03:12 perlDreamer If I wanted to use the subs, which version should they marked as to be done?
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04:21 azawawi ?eval say "hello!";
04:21 evalbot_r16296 OUTPUT[hello!␤] Bool::True
04:21 azawawi ?eval say "Perl is cool!";
04:21 evalbot_r16296 OUTPUT[Perl is cool!␤] Bool::True
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05:55 svnbot6 r16297 | agentz++ | [t/TASKS]
05:55 svnbot6 r16297 | agentz++ | - removed the "todo" sub task since we're moving to
05:55 svnbot6 r16297 | agentz++ |   jerry's smart comments like "### todo: pugs 6.28.0"
05:55 svnbot6 r16297 | agentz++ |   or something like that. thanks perlDreamer++ for
05:55 svnbot6 r16297 | agentz++ |   pointing that out.
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06:00 rhr if I say something like $s = \x[1234] what controls the encoding?  something like use utf8?  is utf8 always the default if no encoding is specified?
06:01 rhr and how would you specify a different encoding for one string without changing the default?
06:01 svnbot6 r16298 | agentz++ | [t/TASKS]
06:01 svnbot6 r16298 | agentz++ | * added a new task for implementing Jerry's TODO smart
06:01 svnbot6 r16298 | agentz++ |   comments in the test harness. some examples are
06:01 svnbot6 r16298 | agentz++ |   also added.
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06:17 rhr Str.chars doesn't appear in S02, should it? I'm assuming it should mean whichever of .bytes/.codes/.graphs/.langs is selected by use bytes/codes/etc., and that the default is .graphs
06:18 rhr in pugs, .codes, .graphs, and .chars all mean .codes at present
06:18 rhr ?eval my $u = "\x[0041,0300]"; say $u; $u.graphs
06:19 evalbot_r16297 changed the nick to evalbot_r16296
06:19 evalbot_r16297 OUTPUT[À␤] 2
06:19 rhr also, how do you specify unicode normalization forms?
06:23 Aankhen`` rhr: From S02, "In the abstract, Perl is written in Unicode, and has consistent Unicode semantics regardless of the underlying text representations.", so I guess it works out to `use utf8` on steroids. :-)
06:23 lambdabot Aankhen``: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:23 Aankhen`` @messages
06:23 lambdabot agentzh said 16h 48m 33s ago: could you take a look at that load event handler when you have the tuits? it's indeed running 10+ or even 20+ times during a single loading. (location.hash = '...' is
06:23 lambdabot not the cause)
06:26 rhr Aankhen``: that's fine until you do IO :)
06:27 rhr Str.bytes doesn't make any sense if no encoding is specified
06:28 Aankhen`` @tell agentzh I'm not seeing the load handler run more than once on Firefox; a profiling session shows that it runs once, calling addEvent 83 times (or more, or less, depending on the number of smartlink snippets).  Which browser did you see this behaviour under?
06:28 lambdabot Consider it noted.
06:49 svnbot6 r16299 | rhr++ | misc unicode tests, add smartlinks
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06:55 ingy seen gaal
06:55 ingy seen gaal?
06:55 japhb @seen gaal
06:55 lambdabot gaal is in #haskell and #perl6. I don't know when gaal last spoke.
06:55 japhb ETOOMANYBOTSYNTAXES
06:55 Aankhen`` LOL.
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07:09 Aankhen`` Heh.
07:09 Aankhen`` Un-heh, I just realized what I thought was funny really wasn't. :-(
07:10 japhb :-)
07:10 Aankhen`` Don't laugh at me!
07:12 Aankhen`` Man, Perl 6 regexes look like a parsing nightmare.
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07:16 japhb Not when you can use them to parse themselves.  ;-)
07:16 Aankhen`` Fair enough.
07:16 Aankhen`` I'd hate to be the one bootstrapping them, though. :-P
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07:17 Aankhen`` I wonder how it'll work if and when Perl 6 regexes are used in other languages.  I guess every language would have to specify its own parser for { ... }?
07:17 Aankhen`` Or rather, re-use its parser.
07:17 japhb In fact, I'd say that STD itself is a fair test of the rubber-to-the-road value of the grammar design, exercising a lot of the features that make grammars more useful than mere regexen
07:18 Aankhen`` Such as?
07:19 japhb I'm basing that comment on the fact that $Larry has updated the grammar design several times to make STD cleaner.
07:19 Aankhen`` Ahh.
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07:25 Aankhen`` I don't understand the bit about multi regexes.
07:25 Aankhen`` proto token sigil; multi token sigil:sym<$>  { <sym> } # what is the "sym" there?
07:25 Aankhen`` I mean… what does `sigil:sym<$>` break down to?
07:27 japhb I believe it allows him to use a single rule body for multiple possible symbols ($ @ % and so on, in this case).  I'm not looking at STD at the moment, so I'm not sure that's correct, but I seem to recall that reasoning
07:28 Aankhen`` Right, but I don't understand the long name. :-S
07:28 * Aankhen`` cries.
07:28 Aankhen`` (I'm reading S05, BTW.)
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07:37 * Aankhen`` wonders if the greatly increased expressive power of Perl 6 regexes will lead to a lot of mixing of logic, not unlike mixing presentational logic with business logic.
07:38 Aankhen`` I know that you can use (?{...}) and (??{...}) in Perl 5 today—however limited they might be—but it seems to be much easier to do that sort of stuff (squared) in P6.
07:41 rhr Aankhen``: look at regex cmd in examples/password-manager.p6 for an example of that
07:42 Aankhen`` Heh, I see that.
07:43 Aankhen`` That doesn't work, does it?
07:43 rhr Aankhen``: the sym thing has something to so with wanting to distinguish the symbol being parsed from the name of the rule that parses it, but I don't understand the details...
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07:43 rhr no, it doesn't work with pugs yet
07:43 Aankhen`` I see.
07:44 Aankhen`` Yeh, I figured the $<...> at the very least would break it.
07:44 rhr I don't even really know what does and doesn't work in regexes in pugs
07:46 Aankhen`` subset NumberBase of Int where /^ (\d+) { 2 <= $0 <= 64 || fail } $/;
07:46 Aankhen`` Er.
07:46 Aankhen`` I suppose that was a bad example, since numbers aren't the best thing to run regexes on.
07:47 Aankhen`` Regardless, I'm trying to figure out whether something like that is a fair use of regexes, or something that will come back to haunt me.
07:48 rhr subset Identifier of Str where /^ <ident> $/
07:48 Aankhen`` Well, that seems like a basic, logical subtype.
07:49 Aankhen`` What about this?  subset User of Str where /^ <ident> { check_database_for_user($<ident>) or fail } $/
07:49 Aankhen`` That's on the other extreme, isn't it?
07:50 rhr could be useful
07:50 Aankhen`` Well, it seems like it would give you more useful error info if that sort of logic weren't within the regex.
07:51 Aankhen`` sub foo (User $bar) { ... } vs. sub foo (Str $bar) { check_database_for_user($bar) || fail "User does not exist"; }
07:51 rhr I think you can do ... or fail "No such user"
07:51 Aankhen`` First case, you just get an error saying $bar must satisfy the User type constraint.  Second case, you get a message explicitly saying the user does not exist.
07:52 Aankhen`` Yeah, you could.  Maybe I'm just reaching.
07:52 rhr but that probably doesn't print the error for you
07:53 rhr and you may not want to print it anyway
07:53 Aankhen`` True.
07:56 Aankhen`` Eh, you could possibly write your entire program within one giant rule, much beyond password-manager.p6 =)
07:57 Aankhen`` Oh, I actually wanted this earlier: /^ (\d+) <?{ 2 <= $0 <= 64 }> $/;
07:59 rhr well, regex cmd is already 99% of the main loop :)
08:00 Aankhen`` True, but the full program has too much non-regex stuff in it. <G>
08:02 Aankhen`` regex unescaped_slash { <!after <~~>> \\ } # does this look right?
08:06 rhr slash or backslash?
08:07 Aankhen`` Well, backslash.
08:07 rhr what does ~~ have to do with backslash?
08:08 Aankhen`` "A leading ~~ indicates a recursive call back into some or all of the current rule."
08:08 Aankhen`` <~~>       # call myself recursively
08:08 rhr oh, didn't know that
08:10 Aankhen`` regex unescaped_backslash { <!after <~~>> \\ }; regex unescaped_string (Str $str) { <!after unescaped_backslash> $str }; # don't I have imaginative names? :-D
08:13 Aankhen`` All this stuff about controlling backtracking makes my head hurt.
08:13 Aankhen`` One second it all makes sense, the next I'm left reeling again.
08:14 rhr I've had that feeling.  Need to write some code, but too much doesn't work yet...
08:15 Aankhen`` Heh.
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09:02 svnbot6 r16300 | rhr++ | Lots of failing unicode bytes/codes/chars tests
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09:13 riffraff hi
09:13 moritz hi riffraff ;)
09:16 riffraff it seem I found a wonderful heisenbug related to returning junctions from routines and depending on the want'ed type
09:17 riffraff from time to time $foo =some_routine_returning_jun().values will end up with "()" but if I assign to a @array everything alays work fine
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09:31 moritz ?eval ((1,2,3) Z (5,4,3)).map(&infix:<+>)
09:31 evalbot_r16300 changed the nick to evalbot_r16297
09:31 evalbot_r16300 (4.0, 2.0)
09:32 moritz not what I expected ;)
09:32 moritz but propably it works how it should
09:32 riffraff really unexpected :)
09:33 moritz ?eval ((1,2,3) Z (5,4,3)).map([+] $_)
09:33 evalbot_r16300 Error: Cannot cast from VList [VUndef] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
09:33 moritz or do I have to use some kind of @$_?
09:35 riffraff ?eval [[1,2]].map(&infix:<+>)
09:35 evalbot_r16300 (2.0,)
09:36 riffraff mh
09:36 riffraff ?eval &infix:<+>(1,2)
09:36 evalbot_r16300 3
09:37 riffraff ?eval &infix:<+>([1,2])
09:37 evalbot_r16300 Error: No compatible multi variant found: &infix:+
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11:24 svnbot6 r16301 | rhr++ | [t/builtins/strings/unicode.t] Readability improvements to substr tests
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11:40 Tene ?eval (1,2,3) Z (4,5,6)
11:40 evalbot_r16300 ((1, 4), (2, 5), (3, 6))
11:41 Tene ?eval map (1,2,3) Z (4,5,6), {[+] $^a}
11:42 evalbot_r16300 Error: Cannot cast from VList [] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
11:42 Tene ?eval map {[+] $^a}, (1,2,3) Z (4,5,6)
11:42 evalbot_r16300 ((1, 4), (2, 5), (3, 6))
11:43 Tene ?eval ((1,2,3) Z (4,5,6)).map: {.say}
11:43 evalbot_r16300 OUTPUT[14␤25␤36␤] (Bool::True, Bool::True, Bool::True)
11:43 Tene ?eval ((1,2,3) Z (4,5,6)).map: {[+] $^a}
11:43 evalbot_r16300 (5, 7, 9)
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12:40 pasteling "rhr" at 65.94.38.10 pasted "pugs syntax error I don't understand" (63 lines, 2.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/24890
12:44 kolibrie that's weird that it works in the interactive shell but not on the command-line
12:44 rhr yes, it is
12:47 moritz does it work if you remove the Int before @combining?
12:47 rhr nope
12:48 moritz weird
12:48 rhr I'm a magnet for weird pugs bugs, apparently
12:48 moritz I can't spot either a syntax error nor a particularly sophisticated syntax
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12:51 rhr hmm, deleting most of the numbers in the array gets rid of the error
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12:54 rhr nevermind, there's a missing comma
12:54 Tene Heh.
12:56 rhr not sure how it went missing, that was all generated by a perl script
12:59 moritz and perl scripts are bug free[tm]
13:01 rhr actually, I probably hit x in vim or something by mistake
13:06 lumi But the useless error is sil la bug, right?
13:06 svnbot6 r16302 | rhr++ | [Prelude.pm] add Str.graphs, make Str.chars return Str.graphs
13:07 lumi s/sil la/still a/
13:07 rhr yeah, that was a pretty confusing error message
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13:48 zzzz ?eval print "Hello World"
13:48 evalbot_r16302 changed the nick to evalbot_r16300
13:48 evalbot_r16302 OUTPUT[Hello World] Bool::True
13:48 zzzz ?eval print "Hello World" . (1+1);
13:48 evalbot_r16302 Error: ␤Unexpected "."␤expecting operator, ":" or ","
13:48 zzzz ?eval print "Hello World" . (1+1)
13:48 evalbot_r16302 Error: ␤Unexpected "."␤expecting operator, ":" or ","
13:49 zzzz ?eval print "Hello World" + (1+1)
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13:49 evalbot_r16302 OUTPUT[2] Bool::True
13:49 diakopter ?eval print "Hello World" ~ (1+1)
13:49 evalbot_r16302 OUTPUT[Hello World2] Bool::True
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14:23 Teratogen is Perl 6 just gonna end up another flavor of Lisp?
14:27 blaze-x is man "just" going to be another flavor of ape?
14:27 blaze-x :)
14:29 Teratogen man is going away, it's all gonna be "info" now
14:31 Teratogen can we expect Perl 6 by Christmas
14:31 Teratogen make it, like, a big Christmas present to the world
14:32 Teratogen before we blow ourselves up or get hit by an asteroid or global warming runs rampant
14:32 Teratogen I mean, you know, we could all go before you get this thing done
14:33 Teratogen did you know that there are huge whirlpools of discarded plastic (the size of Texas) in our oceans? That could kill the oceans?
14:33 [particle] PHEAR.
14:33 Teratogen and that honeybee colonies are dieing off in record numbers?
14:33 Teratogen you gotta get a move-on or there'll be nobody to use Perl 6!
14:33 kolibrie we're in this for the fun
14:34 Teratogen oh well that's a totally different story then
14:34 Teratogen have fun =)
14:34 Teratogen let the world crumble around you
14:35 Teratogen the yellowstone caldera could erupt!
14:38 Teratogen it will be neat though
14:38 Teratogen I assume Perl 6 will be an interpreter AND a compiler?
14:38 Teratogen compile to native code?
14:39 Juerd It will compile to Parrot native code, probably.
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14:40 Juerd Something else can, if needed, take care of compiling parrot bytecode to system native code, but I doubt it's very useful.
14:40 [particle] we call that JIT
14:41 Teratogen right
14:41 Teratogen hi Juerd =)
14:42 Teratogen I'm trolling this morning
14:42 [particle] i see that
14:42 Teratogen about to take my medz, eat some food, and crash.
14:42 Juerd [particle]: Not everything is jit'ed, I thought
14:42 Teratogen am bored.
14:42 [particle] i'm sure perl 6 (the product) will be fun someday. perl 6 (the journey) is fun now.
14:42 Teratogen the only thing I don't like is sigil invariance
14:43 Teratogen it isn't Perlish!
14:43 [particle] i disagree
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14:43 Teratogen the way sigils work in Perl 5 make a Perlish kind of sense
14:43 [particle] juerd: not everything *yet* (if ever)
14:43 b_jonas joined #perl6
14:44 Teratogen and how do you do a slice now?
14:44 Teratogen (in Perl 6)
14:44 [particle] teratogen: don't get so hung up on syntax. perl 6 expresses a much wider set of semantics in a much friendlier way
14:45 Teratogen ok
14:45 [particle] so, the syntax changed a bit--that doesn't make it less perlish
14:45 gnuvince Teratogen: my @slice = %hash<foo bar baz>;
14:45 [particle] it might make it less perl 5-ish
14:46 jisom not everything needs to be jitted, optimization isn't always guaranteed, plus do you really expect to jit "add_parent" for a class?
14:46 * jisom goes back to his amd64 jit attempt
14:47 [particle] jisom: how's that going, btw?
14:47 blaze-x in relation to that, whould it somehow be possible to use . on a string for concatination (I only know perl5, but assuming that maybe the string object protoype could be overridden somehow?)
14:47 [particle] blaze-x: syntax that looks something like "foo".concat("bar") ?
14:47 blaze-x although that would probably make it "foo".("bar")? I'm not up to speed with perl6 development
14:48 jisom eh, no longer working 58 hours a week at work, so now have time.......got a decent collection of whitepapers from AMD about it all......so now it's actually coding
14:48 [particle] jisom: i noticed you've  been quiet. glad to see it's a good quiet :)
14:49 blaze-x [particle]: well, no, that would be too php'ish for my taste, but then again, I'm so used to . for concat, I might get used to ',' , but '~' ... hmm.. I though about ways around it as I had read it :p
14:50 jisom well, we can always use a perl5 compiler
14:50 [particle] blaze-x: yes, i'm sure there will be something like that. maybe like "foo".~("bar", "baz")
14:50 blaze-x also, although those ~ probably look quite nice on mac, I'm using a dos font from waaay back, I'm addicted to it, my consoles look like back in the bbs days, with ~ on the topline very high
14:50 [particle] i'd have to read the SYN to know for sure though
14:51 [particle] ole!
14:51 Juerd blaze-x: Why do you want . for concatenation?
14:51 blaze-x Juerd: third-finger-going to . brainwash?
14:52 Juerd blaze-x: Takes just a week to get used to the new operators
14:52 [particle] oh, you mean just '.'. i thought you meant a method form of concat
14:52 Juerd Andthat's a very broad guess.
14:52 Juerd estimation
14:52 blaze-x [particle]: no, indeed
14:52 Juerd It took me two days.
14:52 Juerd Really, brainwashing isn't a big problem.
14:54 blaze-x hmmm, you could be right, I'm not there yet, bu-ut (being on qwerty), concatination is done with one hand ([",\.']), if you include ~ using both is required
14:54 blaze-x although whilest typing, I must say that I probably will get used to it :)
14:54 Juerd Switch to dvorak
14:54 Juerd Where "', is on the left side :)
14:54 Juerd As is ~`
14:54 blaze-x hehe, myes, that's on my todo list for like soo long :)
14:54 jisom then go to work and type, people will call you crazy
14:55 Juerd blaze-x: How much spare time do you have next two weeks?
14:55 Juerd blaze-x: Could you make room for one hour per day? I have a great dvorak course for you
14:55 Juerd I'll buy you a beer at a Perl event if you don't manage to touch type dvorak within those two weeks, with practicing only one hour a day.
14:56 blaze-x Juerd: have a few projects which need to finish (they are on the laptop) once I switch to my desktop pc, I'm willing to give it a go
14:56 Juerd blaze-x: Contact me by that time then :)
14:56 blaze-x oh and btw, I'm probably the only hacker who doesn't drink beer (being from belgium and al, that's unusual :))
14:56 Juerd I don't drink any myself. It's an expression
14:56 Juerd "Favourite not too expensive beverage."
14:57 * kolibrie doesn't drink beer, but he does type dvorak
14:57 blaze-x sure, just thought it was curious, but seems i'm not alone :)
14:57 Juerd kolibrie++
14:57 Juerd blaze-x: Where in .be do you live?
14:57 blaze-x Juerd: flemisch brabant
14:57 Juerd Oh, that's not far from where I live
14:57 blaze-x like 20mins from the capital
14:58 Juerd I live a few km from the Dutch (N-)Brabant border, in Zuid-Holland.
14:58 blaze-x ah, I see, cool.
14:58 blaze-x wasn't there an upcoming YAPC in europe>
14:58 Juerd Yes, in August
14:58 Juerd In Vienna
14:59 blaze-x darn, /me hates traveling (don't ask why :))
14:59 blaze-x but since my gf has been nagging like crazy to go on holiday, this might be a perfect opportunity
15:00 blaze-x she's a geek too (well math geek actually) so she might even like the meetings
15:03 blaze-x btw, I'm interested in the possible uses of perl6 conversion to other languages, esp javascript. could someone enlighten me about the implications of this,
15:03 Juerd It's compilation, not conversion
15:04 blaze-x ie: will we see some kind of CGI which can reform itself into a hybrid client/server model, pushing to the client what it wants and keeping serverside what it wants
15:04 Juerd It's theoretically possible to compile any language to any other language, if external features like I/O are either sufficiently supported, or not used.
15:05 Juerd Compiling C to ELF isn't much different from compiling Perl 6 to Javascript, from an extremely high level view.
15:05 Juerd But don't think it's translation, because it's not.
15:05 blaze-x ok, compilation, my bad.
15:06 blaze-x but I'm wondering about the impact of this, will this create new opportunities for the web?
15:06 Juerd 1 + 5 may wind up as enoaenuth(notehuoe(1), notehuoe(5)), or something even much more complex.
15:06 Juerd Not unless Javascript gets MUCH faster soon.
15:07 obra Juerd: see the new VM adobe's contributeed to the mozilla project
15:07 Juerd Compiling to javascript is a few steps backwards in execution speed.
15:07 Juerd obra: Ooh, interesting. I think I might look up some reading material on that tonight.
15:07 obra tamarind.
15:07 Juerd noted
15:07 obra though the work ms has done with the DLR (not clr) is interesting for many of the same reasons.
15:08 blaze-x Juerd: unless you distribute the payload over the clients, and reading about @[1,2,3] ~ @[a,b,c] (syn?) being split up in 3 separate concats...
15:08 Juerd I don't know what @[] is.
15:08 blaze-x probably the wrong syntax, sorry
15:09 blaze-x but I meant that it is done in 3 independant calls, so you execute them parralell, no?
15:09 blaze-x I'm probably using bad terminology, need to do some more reading...
15:13 [particle] you mean hyper operators
15:14 blaze-x yes, (or I think so :)
15:15 [particle] S03?
15:15 [particle] rats, i was hoping somebody made that specbot i've been talking about
15:18 blaze-x indeed, a hyper operator
15:19 Juerd [particle]: Specbot?
15:20 [particle] i'd like a bot that can recite the spec
15:20 Juerd That's way too much data for irc
15:20 [particle] a query like "S03?" would give you a link to the spec
15:20 Juerd Ah
15:20 Juerd I use tnx.nl/S03
15:21 [particle] one like "S03:1127-29" would give you those lines
15:21 Juerd Erh
15:21 [particle] and maybe it'd be limited to 10 or 15 lines, so as not to drive folks mad
15:21 Juerd The specs don't have line numbers. It has floated paragraphs.
15:22 [particle] the pod is canon
15:22 Juerd Bah
15:22 Juerd Nah, I don't like that idea
15:22 [particle] well, there could be "S03/Hyper Operators" queries, too, if you like
15:23 [particle] TimToady and others (me included) use line numbers
15:23 [particle] until each verse (like the bible) is numbered, that's the best way to be clear and succinct so far
15:24 Juerd Sure, but reciting on irc is a bad idea.
15:24 [particle] well, i think otherwise :)
15:24 [particle] would you prefer nopaste?
15:25 Juerd I'd prefer a link to the entire document, properly #'ed
15:26 [particle] the html is generated. i want quick and easy access to the source.
15:26 Juerd Then the source needs to be htmlified <pre> with <a id>
15:26 [particle] but, i'm unlikely to write it
15:26 Juerd Or something like that, but not lines on irc
15:26 [particle] what's wrong with irc?
15:27 Juerd Nothing's wrong with irc as long as such bots aren't written ;)
15:27 Juerd Multiline stuff on irc is problematic because it disturbs normal conversations.
15:27 Juerd IRC is line based
15:28 Juerd It's not even *possible* to flood 15 lines at once, so you need a delay. During the delay, people will talk, and it'll be a mess.
15:29 [particle] i can write
15:29 [particle] more than one line at once
15:29 Yaakov You need a separate channel, moderated, for the output.
15:29 [particle] oh, heh, that's a client thing.
15:29 Juerd You can't output 15 lines in one go, pasteling
15:29 Juerd eh, [particle]
15:29 Juerd example... 1
15:29 Juerd example... 2
15:29 Juerd example... 3
15:29 Juerd example... 4
15:29 Juerd example... 5
15:29 Juerd example... 6
15:29 Juerd example... 7
15:29 Juerd example... 8
15:30 Juerd example... 9
15:30 Juerd example... 10
15:30 Juerd example... 11
15:30 Juerd example... 12
15:30 Juerd example... 13
15:30 Juerd example... 14
15:30 Juerd example... 15
15:30 Juerd That was: /exec -o perl -le'print "example... $_" for 1..15'
15:30 Juerd You'll notice how the first few lines were floodod at once, while the others are delayed a second each, by my client, to prevent that I'm killed by the server (excess flood)
15:31 [particle] what i'm after is a mechanism for sharing information when discussing the spec
15:32 [particle] so everyone in the channel can be a part of it without having a copy of the spec on their machine for reference
15:32 Juerd I think URLs are great for that.
15:33 [particle] if the response from the bot is nopasted, fine.
15:33 Juerd Why nopaste it if you can have static documents online?
15:33 Juerd It's a piece of cake to wrap some html around the literal pod
15:33 [particle] if we have line-numbered pod documents online, that's fine too
15:33 Juerd Yea
15:33 Juerd I think that's much easier AND much better than such a bot.
15:34 Juerd The line numbers should be links to the lines
15:34 [particle] still be nice to get a link made up for you
15:34 Juerd So you can easily copy/paste that.
15:34 Juerd You shouldn't have to manually type in line numbers.
15:34 Juerd I'll see if I can build something like this today.
15:35 [particle] juerd++
15:35 Juerd Probably less than 30 minutes work
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15:38 jerrylee any good tutorials on teaching Haskell?
15:39 Juerd jerrylee: http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/docs/01Overview.html, under "Where can I learn more about Haskell?"
15:39 lambdabot Title: Pugs Apocryphon 1
15:40 jerrylee Juerd: thanks :D
15:41 Juerd The pleasure of googling is all mine.
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16:19 svnbot6 r16303 | rhr++ | [Prelude.pm] in Str.graphs, comment the future need for units in substr
16:19 rhr what kind of object is 1.as(Codes) (S02:620) supposed to be?
16:21 fglock left #perl6
16:21 Tene ?eval 1.as(Codes)
16:21 evalbot_r16302 Error: No such method in class Int: &as
16:21 rhr I remember from way back there was conjecture that arbitrary units for Nums would be supported via something like 42`mm + 23`furlongs
16:21 fglock joined #perl6
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16:22 [particle] ?eval 1.returns(Codes)
16:22 veritos hello
16:22 evalbot_r16302 Error: No such method in class Int: &returns
16:22 Tene That's an interesting suggestion
16:22 rhr might 1.as(Codes) fit into the same scheme?  that would be cool
16:25 zperl hi
16:25 Tene zperl: Hi!
16:26 xinming_ lwall++ I finally realized what the powfulness roles have. perl6 rocks really. :-) >_<
16:31 TimToady xinming_: please blame chromatic for introducing roles to Perl 6
16:31 TimToady Codes(1)
16:34 jerrylee bye guys
16:34 fglock hi
16:35 TimToady howdy
16:35 xinming_ It's fun to get the new understanding of a technoligy... >_<
16:35 japhb fglock: refreshed from time off?
16:35 xinming_ how to spell technoledgy correctly? >_<
16:35 TimToady probably tired out... :)
16:35 japhb "I need a vacation from that vacation!"
16:35 TimToady xinming_: whatever communicates is fine
16:36 fglock I've been taking a look at history of computer languages - interesting read
16:36 fglock mostly smalltalk & lisp
16:37 gnuvince smalltalk++
16:37 rindolf Hi fglock, TimToady, xinming_, gnuvince
16:37 fglock rindolf: hi
16:37 rindolf gnuvince: my problem with Smalltalk is that Squeak is so much different from anything I'm used to.
16:37 rindolf fglock: what's up?
16:38 gnuvince rindolf: Squeak isn't the only Smalltalk.
16:38 rindolf gnuvince: yes.
16:38 rindolf gnuvince: is there anything better?
16:39 japhb Well, Squeak is the one to be installed on many millions of OLPC laptops, so it will be the de facto main one in the not too distant future, methinks.
16:39 gnuvince Depends on what you mean by better; you have Cincom Smalltalk, VisualAge Smalltalk, Dolphin Smalltalk, Abrai Smalltalk
16:39 rindolf gnuvince: and GNU Smalltalk...
16:39 TimToady rhr: yes, Str.bytes would fail unless the object in question had a visible encoding mixed in or delegated.
16:39 fglock rindolf: just trying to see Perl 6 from a different angle; perhaps from an evolutional POV
16:39 gnuvince Cincom Smalltalk is probably the most widespread
16:40 rhr TimToady: ok, so it's $str does utf8
16:40 japhb You know, I wonder if it's doable to get Parrot released in time to go on OLPC 2 (2009 or later, I think ...)
16:41 rhr is there a 'use utf8' to make that a default?
16:41 zperl ?eval $z=1+2
16:41 evalbot_r16303 changed the nick to evalbot_r16302
16:41 evalbot_r16303 \3
16:41 zperl $eval $z
16:41 zperl ?eval $z
16:41 [particle] japhb: join us!
16:41 evalbot_r16303 \undef
16:41 fglock isn't Parrot usable right now?
16:42 TimToady you can't really force a string to be utf-8 if it doesn't want to be
16:42 TimToady in general it should be the generator of the string deciding whether to supply the bytes abstraction layer.
16:43 xinming_ rindolf: hi
16:43 rhr ok, good enough
16:43 fglock re Parrot: my point is that Perl 6 implements it's own object system, and it works fine without threads
16:43 TimToady pragmas can really only set defaults for the generators in the current scope
16:43 japhb fglock: I mean, released so that the OLPC guys would consider replacing CPython, so that the kids would have more than just Python and Squeak available.
16:43 rindolf I personally think OLPC is stupid.
16:44 * japhb blinks
16:44 japhb I've heard OLPC called a lot of things.  "Stupid" is a new one.
16:44 rhr TimToady: what did you mean by Codes(1)?  Are Codes/Graphs/etc. roles also?
16:44 TimToady @tell Aankhen`` I'd just write "subset NumberBase of Int where 2..64"
16:44 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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16:45 TimToady most of the built-in types are really roles punning with classes of the same name
16:46 TimToady And Codes(1) would be a control-A
16:46 xinming_ BTW, what is the difference between these 2 situations in perl 5 and perl 6? one is using a role (perl 6 way).... another is make a class without new in perl 5. and when we want the Mixin, we just use 'use base qw/Pkg1 Pkg2 Pkg3/;' to "act" as mixin?
16:46 rindolf japhb: it's a computer that's not quite a computer, running a very unorthodox GUI, and incredibly crippled.
16:46 rindolf japhb: interesting idea. Very bad execution.
16:46 TimToady Codes(32) is a space regardless of the current encoding of the script
16:46 rhr TimToady: control-A?  I don't understand
16:46 TimToady "consistent Unicode semantics"
16:47 TimToady codepoint 1 in Unicode is a ^A
16:47 rhr how does that jive with S02:620?
16:47 xinming_ hmm, May I ask here or I should ask in #perl? >_<
16:48 japhb unorthodox GUI -- true.  Crippled -- less so now that they are running the Geode LX instead of Geode GX.  Also, they have some parts that are considerably more advanced than any other laptop available.  Not quite a computer -- not so.  It's a fully functional Fedora.  In fact, Red Hat is doing a "95% shared" version that runs using the standard Gnome desktop instead, for sale in developing countries.
16:49 veritos joined #perl6
16:49 TimToady okay, Code(1) is ^A, not Codes(1).  sorry
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16:49 rindolf japhb: next time please adress me.
16:50 japhb rindolf: basically a few months ago, the various purchasing nations got together and decided to dump OLPC 1 in favor of just starting immediately with OLPC 1.5, paying the price delta and accepting a couple months delay.  And it's now a WAY more functional box
16:50 rindolf japhb: rin[tab]
16:50 rindolf japhb: oh.
16:50 TimToady but I think people usually just use Char(1) to get it in the current abstraction level.
16:50 japhb rindolf: I generally use ri[tab].  :-)  But that was forgetfullness, not ignorance.
16:50 rindolf japhb: OK.
16:51 TimToady 'course, now I'm contradicting the types in S26, sigh...
16:51 rhr TimToady: isn't that all just "\x[...]"?  How exactly is Code($n) different from Graph($n)?
16:52 TimToady so maybe I should say Uni(1)
16:52 TimToady \x is always hex
16:52 rhr ok, so Uni($n) === "\d[$n]"
16:53 TimToady er, only if you eval the right side
16:53 rhr huh?
16:53 TimToady \d wants literal digits
16:53 rhr oh, right
16:53 TimToady interpolation isn't two pass.
16:54 TimToady you'd have to double the \ too before the eval
16:54 rhr but back to 1.as(Codes) :)
16:54 TimToady and 2.54`cm and all that
16:55 rhr did that idea die?
16:55 TimToady the ` is currently reserved for user use, but I think a lot of users might opt to say "use units".  :)
16:56 rhr but should 1.as(Codes) be part of that?
16:56 rhr 1`Code
16:57 TimToady well, it's a dimensional constant, it's just not a linear dimension necessarily.
16:58 rhr GNU units does nonlinear units :)
16:58 rhr like tempF
16:58 rhr not exactly the same thing
16:58 TimToady well, I'd call those linear, but not commensurable
16:58 TimToady or something like that
16:58 TimToady have different 0 origin, so can't just multiply
16:59 TimToady but the basic idea is that you can take a number and mix in a preferred interpretation of that number somehow
16:59 rhr yup
16:59 [particle] $Feb.days.as(Months)
16:59 rhr heh
17:00 TimToady and then hopefully the type logic can sort things out, or at least know when it can't
17:00 TimToady and some conversions can happen either eagerly or lazily
17:01 rhr nod
17:01 TimToady all the length units might just convert immediately to meters internally
17:01 rhr that's what units(1) does, I believe
17:01 TimToady or maybe they would prefer to do it lazily, much like we say that / could pretend to be a Num but really store a Rat until the value is needed.
17:01 * xinming_ hopes people not ignores him. :'(
17:03 fglock [particle]: is perl6-language the right place to discuss Perl 6 in Parrot?
17:03 TimToady xinming_: I don't understand your question.  I'm not an expert on how Perl 6 types map to Perl 5...
17:03 Yaakov Hello, TimToady.
17:04 [particle] perl6-compilers, i'd say
17:04 rhr afk a few mins
17:06 fglock [particle]: ok
17:06 fglock I'd really prefer online chat
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17:08 [particle] fglock: we can chat online
17:08 [particle] it's likely pmichaud will be around in ~1-2hrs
17:08 fglock oh, nice
17:08 [particle] parrot team has weekly status tuesday @ 1830gmt
17:09 [particle] usually we're all around at that time
17:09 TimToady moritz: the Z operator (and operators like it) do not currently respect @ vs @@ context according to spec.
17:09 moritz TimToady: ok, thanks
17:09 b_jonas I wonder what Z will be renamed to next. perhaps \/\/\/
17:09 TimToady moritz: and arguably defaulting all of them to @ is wrong
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17:10 TimToady hmm, I wonder if there's a Unicode that looks like that... :)
17:10 [particle] fglock: pmichaud is on #parrot now
17:11 fglock [particle]: trying to find out how to connect to irc.perl.org from irssi :)
17:12 veritos fglock: only 1 server at a time i think. open another screen.
17:12 fglock veritos: thanks
17:13 moritz fglock: just type /connect irc.perl.org
17:13 moritz fglock: and then join -perl #parrot
17:13 b_jonas I don't know why we need an operator for it. could we just have that functionality built in map like in scheme? (I think foreach can already do multiple lists paralelly)
17:13 veritos ooh--nice.
17:13 moritz irssi is perfectly capable of handling many servers at once
17:14 fglock moritz: that worked - thanks
17:14 b_jonas though of course there's the problem of how to distinguish between the many things iterating on many lists can mean
17:14 xinming_ TimToady: hmm, what is the difference between role composition and multi inheritance. I think this is what I mean in my previous question.
17:14 moritz b_jonas: this beeing perl we want to implement _every_ convenient method ;)
17:15 b_jonas sure, implement zip, but why an operator with a silly name?
17:15 b_jonas btw, I quite like standard ml's list and listpair library
17:15 REPLeffect joined #perl6
17:15 b_jonas oh well
17:16 b_jonas I would like to have a large standard library too
17:17 b_jonas large standard libraries rock
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17:19 rhr so would there be something like role furlongs does meters {...}?  obviously role Codes doesn't do Bytes, they'd each be fundamental units
17:19 rhr hmm, Code already means somethng else
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17:24 xinming_ hmm, thanks, I think I got it. :-)
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18:46 gaal ingy: moose! I later realized why my suggestion was bogus :)
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19:02 svnbot6 r16304 | rhr++ | [t/builtins/strings/unicode.t] use utf8 -> does utf8 etc.
19:02 TimToady xinming_: role composition resolves method collisions at compile time, and has no trouble with diamond inheritance.  multiple inheritance can't make such guarantees.
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19:17 Patterner changed the nick to Psyche^
19:23 svnbot6 r16305 | rhr++ | [t/builtins/strings/unicode.t] most of these are :todo
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19:37 xinming_ TimToady: The best answer I ever got is from you. :-)  Check google, and found many articles. But none touched my itchy points
19:37 xinming_ Sleep for now, bye all.
19:37 xinming_ Just googled the answer, and now, I can sleep well. :-)
19:37 xinming_ thanks all
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20:30 ingy gaal?
20:30 ingy what suggestion
20:30 ingy <- too lazy to read back
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21:28 lichtkind moritz: now has time?
21:32 moritz lichtkind: yes
21:32 lichtkind moritz fine
21:32 moritz lichtkind: would you care to join an irc server where we can /msg ?
21:32 lichtkind moritz good but how?
21:33 moritz lichtkind: /connect irc.perl.org
21:34 lichtkind moritz:  good moment reconnecing
21:35 lichtkind joined #perl6
21:36 lichtkind moritz:  it was /server  irc.perl.org
21:36 moritz lichtkind: depends on your client ;)
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21:58 fax joined #perl6
21:58 fax hello
21:58 fax I just watched http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3876155376103839772
21:58 lambdabot Title: Audrey Tang - Perl 6 Today - Google Video
21:58 fax looks really amazing!
22:00 fax very excited about perl6 :D
22:00 moritz fax: that's because perl6 _is_ cool ;)
22:01 Tene Hello, fax!
22:01 PerlJam You mean "Perl 6" don't you moritz?  ;)
22:01 PerlJam Today, the role of chromatic will be played by PerlJam on #perl6.
22:01 moritz PerlJam: I do, ;)
22:01 fax I wish I was a master haskell programmer so I could help :p
22:02 PerlJam fax: you don't need to be a master haskell programmer to help!
22:03 fax is it likley that perl 6 will always be in haskell?
22:03 fax PerlJam: oh?
22:03 stevan__ PerlJam: quick hyperoperator question
22:03 PerlJam There's lots of non-haskell work that needs doing.
22:03 stevan__ [++] @minions
22:03 stevan__ does that ++ all my minions
22:03 stevan__ or do some kind of reduction
22:03 * stevan__ hasnt looked at the hyperoperator spec in a while
22:04 PerlJam stevan__: if it works, it should do a reduction and ++ all of your minions
22:04 moritz stevan__: I think you'd need @minions>>.++ or something
22:04 PerlJam :-)
22:04 PerlJam I'm not sure [++] is what you want.
22:04 PerlJam what moritz said
22:04 stevan__ cool
22:04 stevan__ I knew I had it wrong :)
22:04 moritz I think [...] expect a binary operator
22:04 stevan__ thanks
22:04 stevan__ ah
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22:05 stevan__ so [] is more akin to fold, then map
22:05 moritz right
22:06 moritz erm, reduce
22:06 moritz at least in p6 reduce is roughly equivalent to reduce
22:06 PerlJam foldl
22:06 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
22:06 PerlJam foldr would be weird.
22:06 stevan__ PerlJam: yes,.. agreed :)
22:06 PerlJam or do I have those backwards again?
22:07 stevan__ no,.. fold_left is the normal one :)
22:07 * stevan__ is speaking in Ocaml sorry,.. foldl
22:09 Tene stevan__: spec says @minions»++
22:09 Tene ?eval @m = 1..3; @m>>++
22:09 evalbot_r16305 changed the nick to evalbot_r16303
22:09 evalbot_r16305 (*** Can't modify constant item: VInt 1␤    at <eval> line 1, column 12 - line 2, column 1, *** Can't modify constant item: VInt 2␤    at <eval> line 1, column 12 - line 2, column 1, *** Can't modify constant item: VInt 3␤    at <eval> line 1, column 12 - line 2, column 1)
22:12 fax will perl6 always be implemented in haskell?
22:12 Tene fax: no
22:12 fax :(
22:12 fax why?
22:12 stevan__ fax: nope, it will be implemented in Perl 6
22:12 fax ahh thats ok then :D
22:12 Tene fax: well, there will likely always *be* a Perl 6 implementation in haskell
22:12 * diakopter wonders how to de-implement pugs
22:12 japhb joined #perl6
22:12 Limbic_Region diakopter - bootstrapping of course
22:13 fax so the plan is to write in haskell then write it in perl 6?
22:13 PerlJam fax: There are multiple Perl 6 implementations.
22:13 Tene the most "official" implementation will be in Perl 6, yes.
22:13 fax so it will be a perl 6 compiler as well as an interpreter?
22:13 Tene Sure.
22:13 fax wow
22:13 moritz fax: it will have multiple backends, propably
22:13 PerlJam fax: As soon as we get the right amount of perl 6 implemented (in any language) such that we can write perl 6 in perl 6, we're good to go.
22:14 fax sounds fantastic
22:14 moritz fax: and because of BEGIN {...} blocks you can't write a pure compiler
22:14 PerlJam fax: and I think we'll reach that point some time this year.
22:14 moritz fax: because it can change syntax at compile time
22:14 fax moritz: what do you mean? I heard about BEGIN in the video but what problem does it cause?
22:14 fax whats wrong with that though?
22:14 moritz fax: if you do something like BEGIN { sub infix:<*> {...} }
22:15 moritz fax: you change the meaning of the operator "*"
22:15 moritz before the rest is compiled
22:15 fax hm maybe I dont understand what you mean by a pure compiler
22:15 moritz which means that the BEGIN {...} part must be _executed_ at compile time...
22:15 fax oh I understand
22:18 PerlJam moritz: that doesn't mean you can't make a pure compiler, just that you have to ship it as part of your executable  ;-)
22:19 moritz PerlJam: but if code is executed at compile time, that's normally called "interpreted" ;)
22:24 TimToady sub infix:<*> changes the language even if you don't use BEGIN
22:25 moritz right
22:25 TimToady BEGIN is just the final safety valve, like eval, only the opposite
22:26 diakopter TimToady: I don't see a SoTO listed at http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/sessions.html
22:26 lambdabot Title: O'Reilly Open Source Convention 2007 &#8226; July 23-27, 2007 &#8226; Portland,  ...
22:26 TimToady just as we try to make it unnecessary to use eval, we also try to make it unnecessary to use BEGIN
22:26 TimToady diakopter: it's not usually considered part of the sessions
22:27 TimToady it's normally been part of the Tuesday night bash
22:27 diakopter TimToady: oh!  okay
22:27 TimToady not sure where it's tucked this year though
22:28 diakopter a couple of the tutorials I had preferred are already full. :(
22:29 * diakopter looks for an evening bash (anywhere)
22:33 diakopter oh, I see.  Opening night last year.
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22:52 perlDreamer TimToady or other enlightened folk: in t/TASKS it says to update the closure tests w.r.t changes in S04.  Which changes does that refer to?
22:55 TimToady not sure
22:55 ludan joined #perl6
22:56 perlDreamer TimToady: I'll try to narrow down when the task was added.  Would that help?
22:56 TimToady probably double check all the named blocks at S04:853 since some of them got renamed along the way
22:57 TimToady START used to be FIRST, for instance
22:57 TimToady (though I think I changed that one at the time)
22:57 perlDreamer The task was added 8/18/06.  I'll try to cross reference with S04 now.
22:58 perlDreamer oh, and from what I've seen the block renaming was done.
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