Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-05-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
00:06 Limbic_Region salutations all
00:07 kaether joined #perl6
00:07 moritz hi Limbic_Region ;)
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00:14 dduncan hi ho
00:15 stevan_ polettix: your welcome, you can always ask on #moose over on irc.perl.org as well
00:16 * polettix thanks
00:18 stevan_ polettix: the #moose crowd is pretty helpful :)
00:19 polettix some time ago I tried to start a new project with moose, but I was quite in hurry and I eventually falled back to Object::InsideOut
00:20 polettix but with some nasty feeling that I was missing a good chance
00:21 polettix also considering that (for what I know) moose could be a soft bridge towards Perl 6
00:22 polettix BTW, is there a best practice to write Perl 6? Should it be a single word "Perl6" or two separate tokens?
00:22 * polettix confesses not to have RTFM regarding this
00:23 moritz polettix: Perl 6
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00:26 polettix ok, thanks for bearing with my non-constructive lazyness. Good night for those that live where it's night :)
00:26 stevan_ night
00:26 * moritz goes to sleep as well
00:26 moritz night
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01:08 bsb dduncan: I'm looking at sql ast possibilities for $work and many paths link to you.  I'd appreciate your advice on what to check out
01:09 bsb currently it's perl5, but the build stages could potentially involve other things
01:12 dduncan bsb, my AST is for relational databases in general, and isn't specific to SQL, but you can parse SQL to it and generate SQL from it, either with minimal or more indirection depending what SQL features you use
01:13 dduncan I also made an AST once that was specific to SQL, which was on CPAN as Rosetta::Model, but I abandoned that in favor of QDRDBMS::AST
01:14 dduncan regardless, I'm open to discussing your needs and helping as I can
01:14 dduncan for your $work, do you have something in house you started, or are you trying to save yourself from making your own?
01:14 bsb Thanks, I'll check out Rosetta and QDRDBMS
01:15 bsb the later
01:15 dduncan just keep in mind that Rosetta is officially aborted
01:15 dduncan QDRDBMS is a rewrite
01:15 dduncan and Rosetta never actually worked, per se
01:15 bsb :)
01:16 bsb my dream is a declarative validation framework, but that's a long way above the gutter of sql
01:17 dduncan depending on your time table, you could help enhance QDRDBMS to meet your need
01:17 dduncan it is intended to be what SQL DBMSs could have been were they not led astray
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01:19 dduncan right then, lets talk later ... meanwhile, I suggest you check out http://mm.DarrenDuncan.net/mailman/listinfo
01:19 lambdabot Title: mm.darrenduncan.net Mailing Lists
01:19 dduncan I set up lists specific to QDRDBMS there
01:20 dduncan that might be better fora for discussions
01:20 bsb will do, thanks again
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01:29 * dduncan dinner &
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03:18 PerlJam Anyone awake and happen to remember the reasons why **{} looks the way it does?
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03:49 * mncharity observers that python is generally good at guiding/confining people in the direction of clean code.  with one major caveat.  dsl's are not part of the vision.  so when you really really want a dsl, eg, to abstract away gui hair, python... leaves you in a nest of gui hair. :(
03:50 mncharity pining for p6....
03:52 Tene mncharity: Why not start using it now?
03:52 mncharity it's not xmass yet.
03:53 mncharity changed their nick to putter
03:53 Tene huh.  Apparently the IRC bot I left running ran out of memory.
03:54 Tene although, on reflection, that's probably my mistake, not pugs'
03:57 putter g'night &
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04:28 zperl hi
04:30 zperl ?eval my $N is constant = 5; $N = 10; say $N;
04:30 evalbot_r16488 changed their nick to evalbot_r16493
04:30 evalbot_r16493 OUTPUT[10␤] Bool::True
04:30 zperl hmmm how can i make $N constant and readonly?
04:33 zperl anyone?
04:35 TimToady ?eval constant $N = 5; $N = 10; say $N
04:35 evalbot_r16493 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 5
04:35 TimToady "is constant" is a fossil
04:36 zperl cool ty larry
04:36 TimToady there is now an "is readonly" which applies readonlyness to something that is intrinsically writable
04:36 TimToady that's what parameters to functions are by default
04:36 TimToady but the constant declarator lets you declare a compile-time constant
04:36 TimToady (scopes like my)
04:37 toku_away changed their nick to tokuhirom_
04:39 zperl ?eval my constant $N = 5; $N = 10; say $N;
04:39 evalbot_r16493 OUTPUT[10␤] Bool::True
04:39 zperl interesting 'constant' is ignored by pugs?
04:40 TimToady when used as a type, yes
04:40 zperl so is it a bug or a feature?
04:40 TimToady fossil, going away
04:40 zperl ok, cool
04:41 TimToady gotta go pick up my son from the airport...
04:41 zperl any place where fossils are documented so we can avoid?
04:41 TimToady eh, not really
04:41 zperl ok larry, cya and ty.
04:41 TimToady just memorize the synopses and you'll be fine
04:41 TimToady :)
04:41 TimToady afk &
04:41 zperl lol
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05:26 Aankhen`` ?eval constant $N = 5; $N = 10; $N.say
05:26 evalbot_r16493 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 5
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05:34 Aankhen`` Couple of questions about grammars.  Can grammars export regexes?  Is the syntax for matching from a specific grammar always <My::Awesome::Grammar.foo> to use the `foo` subrule from My::Awesome::Grammar?
05:35 Aankhen`` (My understanding is that the answer is "yes" to both.)
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05:57 thoughtpolice Aankhen``: a grammar is a class, too. it just inherits from Rule, so you're basically working the same way.
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05:59 Aankhen`` Okay.
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06:47 xinming what the related name for ->meta->make_immutable in moose is in perl 6 please?
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06:59 renormalist ?eval my $in = "y" ; given $in { when          "y"   { say "yes" } };
06:59 evalbot_r16493 OUTPUT[yes␤] Bool::True
06:59 renormalist ?eval my $in = "y" ; given $in { when ({ $_ ~~ "y"}) { say "yes" } };
06:59 evalbot_r16493 OUTPUT[yes␤] Bool::True
06:59 renormalist ?eval my $in = "y" ; given $in { when    $_ ~~ "y"   { say "yes" } };
06:59 evalbot_r16493 undef
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07:02 renormalist Why do I have to put ({ }) around an explicit smart match expression, as seen in my second eval. Without the paran/brace (3rd eval) it doesn't work.
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07:31 svnbot6 r16494 | Aankhen++ | * added examples/rules/Grammar-URI-RFC1738.pm
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07:53 LaserQ What's the eqiv to sort ( $hash{$b} <=> $hash{a} ) in perl6?
07:53 Aankhen`` @foo.sort:{ $^a <=> $^b }, most likely.
07:53 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
07:53 LaserQ Ah, twigils. Thanks
07:54 Aankhen`` NP.
07:54 Aankhen`` You don't necessarily have to use placeholder variables like that.
07:54 Tene @foo.sort: { %hash{$^a} <=> %hash{$^b} }
07:54 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
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07:54 Aankhen`` You can specify any block that takes two variables.
07:54 Aankhen`` Er, yeah, with %hash too.
07:54 * Aankhen`` blushes.
07:54 Aankhen`` @foo.sort: -> $a, $b { %hash{$a} <=> %hash{$b} }
07:54 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
07:55 Aankhen`` @foo.sort: sub ($a, $b) { %hash{$a} <=> %hash{$b} }
07:55 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
07:55 Aankhen`` To the best of my knowledge, any of those should suffice.
07:55 Tene There was a proposal to have sort() inspect the arity of its code block and automagically parse blocks with single arguments only into sort: { &code($^a) <=> &code($^b) }
07:55 Aankhen`` Say what?
07:55 Aankhen`` Ah.
07:55 Aankhen`` Hmm.
07:56 Tene Although perhaps that should have a different keyword
07:56 Tene sort_by, ocelot
07:56 Aankhen`` So basically you take the result of the_block($^a) and the_block($^b) and compare those?
07:56 * gaal mooses
07:56 Tene Right.
07:56 * Aankhen`` capybaras gaal.
07:56 Aankhen`` Ah.
07:56 Aankhen`` Sounds neat.
07:57 LaserQ %tally.keys.reverse.sort: { %tally{$^b} <=> %tally{$^a} } gives me Undeclared variable: "$^b"
07:57 svnbot6 r16495 | yiyihu++ |  r16572@HomePc:  xinming | 2007-05-18 06:11:39 +0800
07:57 svnbot6 r16495 | yiyihu++ |  Renamed from_moose_0.21 to from_moose
07:57 Aankhen`` Okay, I think I've ported all the easy Regexp::Common modules.
07:57 Aankhen`` All three of them.
07:57 LaserQ Can yo only do that kind of sort with a .kv?
07:57 Aankhen`` Although I did end up writing a grammar for RFC 1738 in the process.
07:57 Aankhen`` LaserQ: Er, where is this giving you an error?
07:57 Tene There are lots of convenient little operators like sort_by that would be nice to have builtin, but are only a line or two to implement.
07:57 Aankhen`` And why do you reverse the keys when you're sorting them anyway?
07:57 Aankhen`` Tene: Fair enough.
07:58 LaserQ That's a very good question. Ops. Still get the eror with that bit removed though
07:58 Aankhen`` ?eval my %foo = (a => 'c', b => 'b', c => 'a'); %foo.keys.sort:{ %foo{$^a} <=> %foo{$^b} }
07:59 evalbot_r16493 changed their nick to evalbot_r16494
07:59 evalbot_r16494 ("a", "b", "c")
07:59 Aankhen`` Uhm.
07:59 Tene LaserQ: pugs doesn't handle auto-magic parameters properly yet.  It handles them in the order they appear in the code, not in alphabetical order.
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07:59 Aankhen`` ?eval my %foo = (a => 'c', b => 'b', c => 'a'); %foo.keys.sort:{ %foo{$^a} cmp %foo{$^b} }
07:59 evalbot_r16494 ("c", "b", "a")
07:59 Aankhen`` There we go.
07:59 svnbot6 r16496 | yiyihu++ |  r16665@HomePc:  xinming | 2007-05-22 15:56:04 +0800
07:59 svnbot6 r16496 | yiyihu++ |  An attempt to translate 000_load and 001_recipe moose tests in to perl 6.
07:59 Aankhen`` And what Tene said.
08:00 Aankhen`` 'Cept s/auto-magic/placeholder/. :-P
08:00 Tene Yeah.  Couldn't remember the term.  Thanks.
08:00 Tene Aankhen``++
08:01 Aankhen`` Oh, please.  I'm always happy to correct other people. ;-)
08:01 LaserQ Aankhen`` - your sort worked so I'm made a mistake somewhere. I'll have a dig, thanks for the pointers
08:01 svnbot6 r16497 | Aankhen++ | * added examples/rules/Regexp-Common.pm (only contains `list`, `ws` and `lingua` patterns so far).
08:01 Aankhen`` LaserQ: <Tene> LaserQ: pugs doesn't handle auto-magic parameters properly yet. It handles them in the order they appear in the code, not in alphabetical order.
08:01 LaserQ oohh
08:01 Aankhen`` LaserQ: You didn't make a mistake, Pugs just doesn't handle placeholder variables correctly as yet.
08:02 Aankhen`` You can work around it for now by reversing $^a and $^b.  And presumably altering your algorithm accordingly.
08:02 Aankhen`` @quote ghc
08:02 lambdabot ghc says: Illegal constraint
08:02 Aankhen`` @quote fortune
08:02 lambdabot No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
08:02 Aankhen`` :-(
08:03 Tene @quote tene
08:03 lambdabot Cale says: desrt: Did you hear about the trivial religion that I came up with? Its tenets consist of a single statement: "Believing in this statement will make you happier". It's like a terminal
08:03 lambdabot object in the category of religions and theomorphisms.
08:03 Aankhen`` Yeh, just realied it, heh.
08:03 Aankhen`` Realized, even.
08:03 Aankhen`` And LMAO at the quote.
08:04 LaserQ Thank you both.
08:07 renormalist @list
08:07 lambdabot http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/lambdabot/COMMANDS
08:07 renormalist @help
08:07 lambdabot help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
08:07 renormalist @help karma
08:07 lambdabot karma <polynick>. Return a person's karma value
08:08 renormalist @karma renormalist
08:08 lambdabot You have a karma of 11
08:08 renormalist @karma audreyt
08:08 lambdabot audreyt has a karma of 815
08:08 renormalist @karma TimToady
08:08 lambdabot TimToady has a karma of 36
08:11 meppl good morning
08:11 renormalist @help quote
08:11 lambdabot quote <nick>
08:11 lambdabot remember <nick> <quote>
08:11 lambdabot Quote somebody, a random person, or save a memorable quote
08:11 renormalist @quote
08:11 lambdabot AdamPeacock says: Once I looked at the source code, 25000 lines of ASP, I reckoned it would be easier to rewrite it in a real language.
08:11 renormalist @quote
08:11 lambdabot Syzygy- says: Why do I get the feeling that the arrow code was written during "Speak like a pirate day"?
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08:21 renormalist a wording question: Does one use the word "twigil" also for the parameters of functions, eg sub quicksort(*$x, *@tail)
08:21 renormalist or are twigils just what starts with $, %, @, like $.accessor?
08:26 renormalist s/parameters of functions/modifiers of parameters of functions/
08:27 Aankhen`` Hi meppl. :-)
08:27 Aankhen`` renormalist: A twigil is a secondary sigil, so only things like "*" in $*FOO or "^" in $^foo are twigils.
08:28 Aankhen`` Or "." in $.accessor, since you mentioned it.
08:28 renormalist k, thx
08:29 Aankhen`` Happy to help.
08:29 * Aankhen`` wonders if eric256 has abandoned examples/rules/basic.pl
08:30 Aankhen`` (Most likely because of vastly incomplete implementations.)
08:30 Aankhen`` His last commit was r10195, so I'm guessing yes.
08:32 moritz good morning ;)
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08:32 Aankhen`` Eek, it's moritz.  Run.
08:33 Tene He killed audreyt!
08:33 Aankhen`` Oh the huge manatee~!
08:33 Aankhen`` s/~//
08:34 Aankhen`` Stupid ~ key keeps sneaking in there.
08:34 renormalist Aankhen``: you have a special Perl6 keyboard? :-)
08:35 Aankhen`` Shh, don't tell anyone. ;-)
08:37 renormalist as we just speak about Perl6: can someone explain me what the pipe symbol in the quicksort example (examples/algorithms/quicksort.pl) do:   return(quicksort(|@pre), $x, quicksort(|@post));
08:39 Aankhen`` Well, |@pre is a Capture, like |@post.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure I understand them completely.
08:39 Aankhen`` I *think* what's happening there is that it's sort of "flattening" @pre to fill the argument list of quicksort.
08:40 Aankhen`` Although "flattening" might be a particularly bad word to use.
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08:43 Aankhen`` I could have sworn there was a POD document on captures.
08:44 Aankhen`` Ah, there's a docs/Perl6/FAQ/Capture.pod
08:45 Aankhen`` Though I have no idea how up-to-date that is.
08:45 Aankhen`` S02 says: "Capture     Function call arguments (right-hand side of a binding)"
08:45 Aankhen`` Actually, just read S02 from "An argument list may be captured into an object with backslashed parens", that might give you some idea.
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08:50 renormalist hm, not sure I understand, maybe it's indeed due to the use of := binding of @pre/@post.  that I also don't understand, why it's done. Or generally when I should use binding.
08:51 Aankhen`` I'm afraid I don't really know. :-(
08:52 renormalist m'kay
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09:12 renormalist ?eval 3 ~~ 1 .. 10
09:12 evalbot_r16494 changed their nick to evalbot_r16497
09:12 evalbot_r16497 Bool::False
09:14 moritz ?eval grep {$_ == 3}, 1 .. 10
09:14 evalbot_r16497 (3,)
09:15 moritz ?eval 3.grep(1..10)
09:15 evalbot_r16497 Error: Cannot cast from VList [VInt 1,VInt 2,VInt 3,VInt 4,VInt 5,VInt 6,VInt 7,VInt 8,VInt 9,VInt 10] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
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09:26 riffraff hi
09:27 moritz hi riffraff ;)
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09:30 riffraff too bad that $x does role doesn't work yet :/
09:42 renormalist how can I count how many tests the testsuite contains without running it?
09:42 renormalist or can someone tell me current numbers
09:43 moritz renormalist: you can look into the smokes on smoke.pugscode.org
09:43 moritz renormalist: there is a count at the very bottom
09:44 renormalist indeed, thx
09:44 renormalist is it really around 18.000 tests? sounds good :-)
09:46 moritz I had 20.000 in mind
09:46 moritz I think a few of the test files don't compile currently, so the plan $n; is never executed...
09:46 riffraff renormalist, well, not all opf them pass though
09:47 moritz and they don't count in that statistic
10:01 renormalist can i sum the numbers in "17954 ok, 0 failed, 4638 todo, 747 skipped " to 17954+4638+747==23339 ?
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10:03 riffraff I remember more than 17954
10:03 riffraff there a re a lot of new TODOs, I believe
10:04 moritz it explicitly says "18590 test cases"
10:04 riffraff completely OT: what does pile-drive means?
10:05 moritz or something
10:05 moritz renormalist: just take that number
10:05 * riffraff is been doing make smoke for a while now
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10:41 svnbot6 r16498 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Compat, Pugs.Embed.Parrot: Change the PUGS_HAVE_POSIX
10:41 svnbot6 r16498 | audreyt++ |   check in .hsc from reading #include <../pugs_config.h> into
10:41 svnbot6 r16498 | audreyt++ |   using a _PUGS_HAVE_POSIX variable, because relative paths
10:41 svnbot6 r16498 | audreyt++ |   under .hsc is not reliable (in GHC-HEAD's Cabal, .hsc files
10:41 svnbot6 r16498 | audreyt++ |   generates dist/build/Pugs/Embed/Parrot.hs rather than the
10:41 svnbot6 r16498 | audreyt++ |   assumed src/Pugs/Embed/Parrot.hs).
10:47 svnbot6 r16499 | audreyt++ | * UTF8.hs - GHC.Prim is not visible in GHC-HEAD anymore;
10:47 svnbot6 r16499 | audreyt++ |   change import to GHC.Base.
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11:41 svnbot6 r16500 | audreyt++ | * Move src/RRegex into third-party/hsregex/, both to simplify the
11:41 svnbot6 r16500 | audreyt++ |   building process (no more mucking with src/pcre/pcre.o etc), and
11:41 svnbot6 r16500 | audreyt++ |   to continue the move of third-party projects (see README) for
11:41 svnbot6 r16500 | audreyt++ |   clarifying licensing/redistribution.
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11:43 svnbot6 r16501 | audreyt++ | * Remove pcre/re-override-*; they are thoroughly replaced by
11:43 svnbot6 r16501 | audreyt++ |   the re-engine family of modules on CPAN.
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11:49 svnbot6 r16502 | audreyt++ | * Thoroughly remove src/pcre and src/RRegex in favor of
11:49 svnbot6 r16502 | audreyt++ |   third-party/hsregex/.
11:49 svnbot6 r16503 | audreyt++ | * gen_prelude.pl: Do not precompile a module more than once..
11:52 svnbot6 r16504 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Meta.Str: The "split" method should be named "split". :)
11:55 svnbot6 r16505 | audreyt++ | * docs/notes/mo-bootstrap-plan.pod: Spellchecking.
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12:10 svnbot6 r16506 | audreyt++ | * Unbreak the build.
12:13 * moritz fears for the debian packages ;)
12:14 moritz but since I'm not too keen on learning for my exams, I'll spend some time fixing it if something breaks ;)
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12:28 avar ew @ re::override:)
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12:46 bloonix salute
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12:47 moritz hi bloonix ;)
12:47 bloonix hey moritz, what up? :) nice to meet you again
12:47 moritz bloonix: I'm thinking about two dimensional regexes
12:48 bloonix *hehe*
12:48 moritz to extend regex matching to image data
12:48 moritz but so far I'm not very successfull ;)
12:48 args hmm image spam detection
12:48 moritz not only spam
12:48 moritz other features as well
12:49 bloonix use bugs as a feature moritz ;)
12:53 moritz bloonix: that's your job ;)
12:55 bloonix i plead guilty
12:55 * moritz executes bloonix
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13:42 moritz feather.perl6.nl and perlcabal.org don't have a favicon
13:43 moritz maybe we should use the same as pugscode.org?
13:50 masak moritz: I've been thinking at times about 2d regexes in relation to Hex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_(board_game)
13:50 masak it carries additional difficulties due to the non-rectangular layout of the board...
13:51 masak but I'd need something like that to do efficient pattern matching on a board
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14:36 renormalist What are the most important URLs that people should know of, when they hear from Pugs in an article?
14:36 moritz www.pugscorde.org and the svn url ;)
14:37 VanilleBert http://run.pugscode.org/
14:37 VanilleBert if it would work
14:37 moritz if it doesn't work, report to andara++ (iirc)
14:39 VanilleBert it redirects me to http://feather.perl6.nl:8080/runpugs/ and no connection can be made
14:40 moritz that's propably due to feather's reboot
14:45 moritz renormalist: what are you writing about pugs?
14:45 moritz renormalist: maybe you could link audrey's talk on pugs+perl6 at google video
14:49 renormalist moritz: I'm working on an article in a magazine. Google video might be cool.
14:49 moritz renormalist: which magazine? ix?
14:50 renormalist y
14:50 renormalist what's the url of audreys talk I already had it but forgot
14:52 moritz http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-3876155376103839772
14:52 lambdabot Title: Audrey Tang - Perl 6 Today - Google Video
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15:05 renormalist moritz: thx, I made it short: http://xrl.us/perl6today
15:05 lambdabot Title: Audrey Tang - Perl 6 Today - Google Video
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15:11 mikfire09 My pugs install seems to be missing HsBridge.pm.  Could somebody tell me how to fix this?  I want to play with the new match syntax but cannot get past this.
15:14 the_dormant joined #perl6
15:21 * rho is away: (ice cream time)
15:21 _bernhard joined #perl6
15:22 TimToady mikfire09: do you have a file in ./blib6/pugs/perl5/lib/Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm ?
15:23 TimToady (we don't generally try to install pugs because it tends to interfere with future development, with the consequence that it tends not to be maintained much either...)
15:24 mikfire09 That is a fair answer
15:24 mikfire09 I may have to back what I did out and try again the old fashioned way.
15:25 TimToady some of us just symlink /usr/bin/pugs into the build directory
15:25 mikfire09 I can set my PATH easier.  Hmmm.  Thanks Tim, I think that was the answer I needed.
15:28 moritz_ joined #perl6
15:28 Juerd Is there a place where one can pull up to date versions of the synopses from?
15:28 Juerd POD preferrably
15:29 topic for #perl6 is:
15:32 kolibrie Juerd: http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk
15:32 lambdabot Title: Revision 14400: /doc/trunk
15:33 Juerd kolibrie: Thanks
15:33 kolibrie np
15:35 renormalist @help seen
15:35 lambdabot seen <user>. Report if a user has been seen by the bot
15:35 renormalist @seen rafl
15:35 lambdabot I haven't seen rafl.
15:35 renormalist oh
15:36 SubStack joined #perl6
15:40 myren joined #perl6
15:44 masak @seen lambdabot
15:44 lambdabot Yes, I'm here. I'm in #friendly-coders, #dreamlinux-es, #xmonad, #unicycling, #perl6, #parrot, #oasis, #jtiger, #haskell-soc, #haskell-overflow, #haskell-blah, #haskell, #ghc, #gentoo-uy, #gentoo-
15:44 lambdabot haskell, #darcs and #scannedinavian
15:45 masak nice.
15:46 [particle] can somebody kick lambdabot from #parrot--that channel isn't used on freenode
15:46 [particle] will the real #parrot please stand up?
15:46 allbery_b @tell dons
15:47 allbery_b also remind him to rejoin #haskell on irc.perl.org :)
15:47 moritz are '@tell's scoped to channels?
15:47 allbery_b nope
15:47 allbery_b they're scoped to nicks
15:48 moritz cool ;)
15:50 [particle] @tell dons lambdabot is on #parrot, but that channel isn't used on freenode (the real #parrot is on irc.perl.org)
15:50 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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16:36 rindolf Hi all.
16:36 ribasushi joined #perl6
16:37 rindolf Happy Shavuoth everybody.
16:37 ribasushi hi
16:37 ribasushi anyone here uses/used Petal? Although the documentation specifically states it works with HTML as well as XHTML, it can not parse validated HTML 4.01
16:38 ribasushi nothingmuch: rindolf suggested you are the one that might know
16:41 the_dormant joined #perl6
16:41 rindolf ribasushi: maybe try #petal on irc.perl.org, assuming this channel exists.
16:42 ribasushi rindolf: nope
16:42 ribasushi I am still milking google
16:44 nothingmuch ribasushi: i don't like petal
16:44 nothingmuch i used to
16:44 nothingmuch but then I realized it's only useful for the first version of a templat
16:44 nothingmuch e
16:44 nothingmuch because it takes too much work to tweak small things
16:44 nothingmuch nowadays I use TT if it's klunky
16:44 nothingmuch or HTML::Element if it's clean
16:45 nothingmuch YMMV
16:45 nothingmuch it's nice to have a "100% guaranteed to be valid" template
16:45 nothingmuch but you can get that with HTML::Element, Template::Declare or HTML::Seamstress ( basically HTML::Element on crack)
16:46 nothingmuch it also has issues with unicode
16:46 ribasushi nothingmuch: I am into petal because of the wysiwyg friendlines
16:46 nothingmuch yeah, i thought that pipe dream was worth it
16:46 nothingmuch i'm not sure now
16:46 nothingmuch HTML::Seamstress should get you the same friendliness
16:46 nothingmuch basically you parse the HTML
16:47 nothingmuch and run replacement patterns on it
16:49 ribasushi reading...
16:49 ribasushi can you tell me anything on my question though?
16:49 nothingmuch i don't think it can
16:49 nothingmuch it's an XML parser
16:50 ribasushi so the input/output options are leftovers from the pre-xml versions I suppose?
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17:17 renormalist is it correct to use the term "Perl6" (without space) in an article, or should I always put a space before the 6? Opinions?
17:18 rhandom On the conversation of template engines, I'm releasing a new version of a year old module today that keeps its TT2 and TT3 support and adds HTML::Template and HTML::Template::Expr support - now for the pugs/perl6 connection - the engine is grammar based and I really can't wait to rewrite it in perl6 - I guess its time to start :).
17:19 rhandom I am hoping I can define my grammar, refine the AST, and play it natively in different runtimes.
17:20 myren is parrot still seen as "the" engine which will ultimately host perl6?
17:21 myren listening to mr audrey tang's presentations it started to seem in ways that perl6 was the perl6 runtime
17:21 [particle] renormalist: i think "Perl 6" is more appropriate
17:22 [particle] myren: parrot as "an" engine for perl6
17:24 TimToady renormalist: we tend to prefer "Perl 6" in order to indicate that it's version 6 of the language "Perl"
17:24 TimToady otherwise people think "Perl6" is the name of the language
17:25 avar mp6 and co are looking much more viable than parrot
17:26 TimToady however, I'm not as picky as some people... :)
17:26 TimToady avar: different levels--they can be complementary
17:27 avar they can, but mp6 emitting perl5, java bytecode etc. would allow it to target different vm's
17:28 Arathorn joined #perl6
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17:30 renormalist TimToady: ok, I will use "Perl 6"  (with space). the same when referring to Perl 5
17:31 * rho is back
17:34 franck__ joined #perl6
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17:37 renormalist brb
17:38 PerlJam TimToady: why is **{} writ that way?  (as opposed to *{} for instance)
17:38 TimToady because otherwise it requires a space to distinguish * {} from *{}, and I thought it would be better to keep it visually distinct as well
17:39 PerlJam TimToady: I was reading S05 last night and **{} still seems like an oddball.  Specifically the difference between procedural vs. declarative.  Everywhere else it seems procedural has doubled chars, and declarative has single chars.
17:39 rafl joined #perl6
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17:41 TimToady well, we might re-evaluate now that all non-alpha are considered meta by default
17:42 _bernhard joined #perl6
17:43 PerlJam okay, don't let it impinge upon your brain too much, but a re-eval would be nice :-)
17:43 justatheory joined #perl6
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17:58 kaether_ changed their nick to kaether
17:58 the_dormant joined #perl6
17:58 TimToady kaether: greetin's
17:59 TimToady would you like a commit bit?  :)
18:01 kaether Can I have two?
18:03 Tene You going to pass the second one on to someone else?
18:03 kaether I was thinking about ebay...
18:03 moritz ;-)
18:03 Tene Heh.
18:04 TimToady gimme two email addresses and you can have two bits...
18:04 SubStack joined #perl6
18:04 * [particle] hums "shave and a haircut"
18:06 PerlJam I could use both of those
18:06 kaether I was thinking that maybe the second bit would be immutable.  
18:08 TimToady if your second email address is immutable, shouldn't be a problem...
18:08 TimToady actually, I know your immutable email address, it's the mutable one I don't know. :)
18:11 [particle] i have a mutable email address, with gmail
18:12 TimToady yeah, well, heisenberg and all that...
18:12 [particle] jerry.gay+mutable@gmail.com
18:17 TimToady commitbit seems to be hosed
18:17 TimToady spewing bare templates at me...
18:17 Tene I remember audreyt saying that she was turning it off because it was having too many issues.
18:18 TimToady I don't suppose there's a commandline interface that can be used on feather...
18:19 obra TimToady: let me look. I have admin bits now
18:20 TimToady yeah, I remember her turning it off too
18:20 TimToady even said where to turn it back on at the time
18:20 japhb joined #perl6
18:20 obra TimToady: this was after I last messed with it?
18:21 [particle] yes, this was yesterday
18:21 obra I see her running a current rsync of commitbit
18:21 obra which leads me to not want to touch it
18:21 obra (like 1 minute ago)
18:23 TimToady http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-05-21#id_l728
18:23 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, http://tinyurl.com/yspw57
18:23 moritz how can I tell irssi not to hilight my nick if it's followod by a dot '.'?
18:23 renormalist Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm currently doesn't compile with pugs -c. The log says it worked some time ago. Is it currently meant to be parseable by pugs or is this not a current goal?
18:24 TimToady audrey does not appear to be logged on to feather
18:24 TimToady sure it wasn't a cron job?
18:24 obra audreyt  26872  0.2  0.0   2980  1484 ?        Ss   20:20   0:00 rsync --server --sender -vulogDtprz . /data/svn/commitbit
18:24 jisom joined #perl6
18:24 obra Not sure it wasn't a cronjob
18:24 obra I may have just had good timing
18:24 TimToady oops, now she's there
18:24 moritz renormalist: I think you have to pipe it through "cheat"
18:26 TimToady yes, currently you have to use "cheat"
18:27 TimToady as pugs's parser improves, we can remove transformations.  when "cheat" turns into "cat", we'll have made progress.
18:28 diakopter s/he//
18:28 TimToady will the intermediate state be ceat or chat?
18:29 TimToady "Yes! Both! Neither!" says QM.
18:30 prly joined #perl6
18:30 [particle] c[h|e]at
18:31 obra I'd really like to get commitbit off this snapshot from november
18:31 renormalist moritz, TimToady: cheat? what's that?
18:32 renormalist ah, cat
18:32 moritz renormalist: a p5 script that transforms some syntactic sugar into something that is easier to parse
18:32 moritz but not so nice to read
18:33 moritz /src/perl6/cheat  in the pugs repository
18:35 renormalist moritz: thx I found it. works with that
18:35 TimToady smile when you say "works"
18:37 REPLeffe1t joined #perl6
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18:38 Tene moritz: irssi has regex as an option to specify hilights.
18:38 Tene moritz: /help hilight
18:40 moritz Tene: I know it has regexes, but it's a bit... unusual (compared to PCRE)
18:42 prly__ joined #perl6
18:42 moritz damned, `man 7 regex` doesn't seem to mention lookahead assertions
18:43 obra commitbit Database vacuumed and indexed and tested with the standalone server. I expect it to be back in a bit.
18:43 obra (renabled in httpd.conf)
18:43 moritz does commitbit do anything else except handling of svn access?
18:44 moritz it seems to cause a lot of trouble for such a seemingly simple task
18:44 obra moritz: indeed it does. We built it for code.bestpractical.com and haven't seen any of these issues there.
18:45 obra But pugscode is running an ancient snapshot, so I don't actually know if actively my fault or passively my fault ;)
18:45 chris2 joined #perl6
18:45 moritz obra: ;)
18:46 obra Part of it is that I can't understand why feather is So. Slow.
18:47 obra TimToady: want to try that commit bit?
18:47 TimToady loadavg went up to 10 :(
18:48 moritz it feels faster now
18:48 moritz the "People" page no longer lists all authors
18:49 obra TimToady: most of the load was svk and irssi (It was there before commitbit was up)
18:49 obra moritz: who's missing?
18:49 TimToady people doesn't list any people
18:49 obra http://commitbit.pugscode.org/project/Pugs looks ~rasonable to me
18:50 moritz obra: everybody ;)
18:52 obra I'm going to spend my afternoon trying to get commitbit up to the latest (this involves fixing a bug in the latest) so that I can _know_ this is my fault.
18:54 isaacd joined #perl6
19:00 renormalist Does the word "hyperoperator" only mean the meta operator "«", or is an hyperoperator the constructed result from the meta with the base operator, like »+« ?
19:01 toshinori joined #perl6
19:01 TimToady it's the resulting operator
19:02 TimToady "hyper map" will also be a hyper operator
19:02 TimToady hyper means "run to completion but I don't care what order"
19:02 wolverian can hypers short circuit in boolean context?
19:03 TimToady that would depend on what type the hyper is returning, and how that type behaves in boolean context
19:04 moritz I guess in a reduce [...] they can
19:04 wolverian I'm wondering about the naive if any(@foo) == 2 { ... }
19:04 wolverian er
19:04 TimToady that's not a hyper
19:04 moritz you could 'grep' or 'first' for it
19:05 wolverian TimToady, yeah. sorry. I don't know what's wrong with me. :)
19:05 TimToady junctions are meant to parallelize in boolean context
19:05 TimToady (and short-circuit)
19:11 moritz ?eval 'x'.HOW.methods
19:11 evalbot_r16497 changed their nick to evalbot_r16506
19:11 evalbot_r16506 ["","reverse","chop","index","quotemeta","join","chars","bytes","LIST","ITEM","_split_str","bless"]
19:11 moritz what's that empty method?
19:12 moritz 'x'. or 'x'.""
19:12 moritz or a bug?
19:15 RichiH [Global Notice] Hi all, as you may be aware the PDPC had a board meeting today. During this meeting a few changes were made to the structure of the board. David Levin stepped down as president, replacing him is Christel Dahlskjaer (freenode Head of Staff). Phil Stracchino became secretary pro tem, and David 'cdlu' Graham and Richard 'RichiH' Hartmann joined the board! Here's to a prosperous future for freenode and the PDPC!
19:18 ozo joined #perl6
19:20 audreyt moritz: not a bug; it's currently MO's way to get to the metaobject from an object, since all other method names must resolve "normally"
19:21 audreyt maybe I should hide it from the .methods list
19:21 ozo_ joined #perl6
19:21 audreyt but it's more of an exposed implementation detail
19:21 moritz if you can't call 'x'.'', it should be hidden IMHO ;)
19:21 audreyt agreed. (afk)
19:27 Tene changed their nick to tenen
19:28 renormalist Can someone explain me why binding with := is used in examples/algorithms/quicksort.pl ? Is it ok to use just = (it seems so)
19:29 audreyt no real reason except it avoids creation of a mutable array structure
19:32 svnbot6 r16507 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Class: Mask the "" magic-backdoor-method in the .^methods list
19:32 svnbot6 r16507 | audreyt++ |   as requested by moritz++
19:37 dduncan speaking of MO, what is the major stuff still pending?
19:38 audreyt dduncan: having .methods actually list stuffs in Pugs.Prim
19:38 audreyt you'll note that a string can't actually only have those methods...
19:38 audreyt ?eval "x".^methods
19:38 evalbot_r16506 Error: ␤Unexpected "^"␤expecting ".", "\187", ">>", "=", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "--", "++", "i", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript
19:39 audreyt er, hm, it works here
19:39 audreyt ?eval "x".HOW.methods
19:39 evalbot_r16506 ["","reverse","chop","index","quotemeta","join","chars","bytes","LIST","ITEM","_split_str","bless"]
19:39 dduncan okay
19:40 audreyt but in doing so all kinds of misassumptions and bad-multi-dispatching and model corner cases got turned up
19:40 audreyt but I'm making progress... just need some continuous hours of cycles.
19:44 dduncan good fortune
19:47 lampus_ changed their nick to lampus
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20:07 moritz S02 has an example: if $x ~~ 1..* {...}                 # if 1 <= $x <= +Inf
20:08 moritz does this work because 1..* is a range rather than a list?
20:08 TimToady Range object can be used as a matcher
20:08 moritz ok
20:08 TimToady pugs does not yet implement Range objects
20:09 TimToady hence tends to get unhappy about 1..*
20:09 moritz I noticed that ;)
20:13 audreyt Juerd:
20:13 audreyt $ time perl -e 'print "x" x 10485768' > z
20:13 audreyt real    0m0.221s
20:13 audreyt user    0m2.320s
20:13 audreyt $  time perl -e '$_ = "z"; open _; <_>'
20:13 audreyt real    0m10.120s
20:13 audreyt user    0m4.608s
20:13 audreyt on feather
20:13 audreyt hypothesis: software raid going crazy?
20:14 audreyt er,
20:14 audreyt real    0m10.120s
20:14 audreyt for read, and
20:14 audreyt real    0m5.972s
20:14 audreyt for write
20:14 audreyt reading 10m shouldn't be 2x slower than writing 10m, and either way they shouldn't take many seconds...
20:15 audreyt @tell Juerd (time perl -e 'print "x" x 10485768' > z) and (time perl -e '$_ = "z"; open _; <_>') are showing weird perf losses and that's what blocked commitbit
20:15 lambdabot Consider it noted.
20:16 Juerd audreyt: Could be anything
20:16 lambdabot Juerd: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:16 Juerd audreyt: But I have nothing to diagnose it further than I have, and everything I did showed that it was okay
20:16 Juerd @messages
20:16 lambdabot Tene said 8d 11h 55m 24s ago: tracd uses a literal 'md5crypt' to check passwords in the htpasswd file. Patching tracd to recognize the '{SHA}' sequence in the htpasswd file is an option?
20:16 lambdabot Tene said 8d 11h 53m 14s ago: python-support/trac/trac/web/auth.py:268
20:16 lambdabot audreyt said 1m 12s ago: (time perl -e 'print "x" x 10485768' > z) and (time perl -e '$_ = "z"; open _; <_>') are showing weird perf losses and that's what blocked commitbit
20:17 moritz is DMA enabled?
20:17 Juerd moritz: It's S-ATA
20:17 moritz ok
20:17 audreyt k, but the fix is not going to be at commitbit level -- I upped to latest jifty and tuned db a bit
20:17 audreyt all it does though is reducing 10mn per page to 3min
20:17 audreyt commitbit is re-enabled
20:18 Juerd 104857600 bytes (105 MB) gekopieerd, 0,688841 seconden, 152 MB/s
20:18 audreyt and I need to crash into sleepland :)
20:18 moritz night ;)
20:18 Juerd audreyt: I understand it's feather, but I don't know what to do.
20:18 Juerd audreyt: RAID seems to perform just right
20:18 Juerd 152 OTOH, this could be cache
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20:19 Juerd 1073741824 bytes (1,1 GB) gekopieerd, 15,4734 seconden, 69,4 MB/s
20:20 Juerd That's certainly not cached I think
20:20 Juerd 70 MB/s is fine.
20:20 Juerd 1;0 root@feather:~# time dd if=/dev/zero of=tmp/1024mb.bin count=1048576 bs=1024
20:20 Juerd So I think the RAID is not guilty
20:20 Juerd The question remains... what is...
20:21 fglock would pugs be able to use a Range class implemented in Perl 6?
20:21 Juerd 1;0 root@feather:~/tmp# time dd if=1024mb.bin of=/dev/null
20:21 Juerd 2097152+0 records in
20:21 Juerd 2097152+0 records uit
20:21 Juerd 1073741824 bytes (1,1 GB) gekopieerd, 9,73728 seconden, 110 MB/s
20:21 Juerd Also great.
20:22 Juerd (Double speed, because it can read from both drives of the mirror set)
20:23 moritz really misteriously
20:24 moritz I once had a vim instance that lost its terminal and produced 100% CPU usage without showing up in top...
20:24 moritz but theses cases are extremely rare
20:24 moritz so I can't see how anything like that could happen regularly
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20:32 renormalist Juerd: did you already consider that some malicious thing might doing that? like a root kit that sniffs local network with flood attacks (just an example). They can feel like high load.
20:33 Juerd renormalist: Yes, considered that.
20:34 Juerd renormalist: But chkrootkit couldn't find anything - do you know more ways to diagnose this?
20:34 moritz Juerd: rkhunter
20:34 moritz or maybe sniff traffic at the router
20:35 Juerd Have sniffed already
20:35 Juerd Nothing out of the ordinary
20:35 japhb Juerd: can you paste a line or two of 'vmstat 5'?
20:35 Juerd japhb: Sure
20:35 Juerd procs -----------memory---------- ---swap-- -----io---- -system-- ----cpu---- r  b   swpd   free   buff  cache   si   so    bi    bo   in   cs us sy id wa
20:35 Juerd 19  0      0 1183088  65336 266596    0    0   382   149    2   48 68  2 25  4
20:35 Juerd That's during an apt-get install
20:35 Juerd 16  0      0 1203192  65356 266484    0    0     1   132  300  231 99  1  0  0
20:36 Juerd 10  0      0 1200040  65400 266692    0    0    18    50  342  284 98  2  0  0
20:36 Juerd r  b   swpd   free   buff  cache   si   so    bi    bo   in   cs us sy id wa
20:36 baest joined #perl6
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20:37 Juerd I'm installing rkhunter now
20:38 ggoebel joined #perl6
20:38 japhb hmmm ... so user CPU% and io blocks are probably both the apt-get ...
20:38 japhb ... the interrupts looks normal for clock tick + NIC irq, assuming you're not running a tickless kernel.
20:39 japhb and the context switches is in line with the interrupts
20:39 diakopter /home/agentz/autosmoke has taken all available cpu for the past while...
20:40 the_dormant joined #perl6
20:40 Juerd diakopter: I assume it was niced?
20:40 diakopter err
20:40 diakopter /home/agentzh/auto-smoke I mean
20:40 diakopter I dunno. I was just looking at htop
20:40 Juerd Agent said he'd niced everything, so that shouldn't be a problem
20:41 renormalist Juerd: don't get panicked with 2.6 kernels when rkhunter/chkrootkit find LKM rootkits. They are often false positives. Unfortunately the "false" you never know ...
20:41 rhandom left #perl6
20:42 Juerd renormalist: Same with chkrootkit
20:42 Juerd But that's why I disabled module support on this public box :)
20:42 Juerd 1;0 root@feather:~# lsmod
20:42 Juerd Module                  Size  Used by    Not tainted
20:42 Juerd lsmod: QM_MODULES: Function not implemented
20:43 zamolxes joined #perl6
20:43 integral It's okay, you can still load modules via /dev/kmem :-)
20:44 Juerd Those aren't technically LKMs :)
20:44 integral I guess no one's written something that'll load real modules via that
20:45 riffraff joined #perl6
20:46 riffraff hi
20:46 moritz hi riffraff ;)
20:46 riffraff err.. trying to run make smoke yesterday, but it seems that something in t/xx-unspecced/ loops forever
20:46 SubStack joined #perl6
20:47 riffraff xx-uncategorized, sorry
20:47 riffraff file http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/xx-uncategorized/deref_doesnt.t
20:47 [particle] should probably move that test to xx-infinite ;)
20:47 riffraff sorrty, no svn and compiler atm, but it would be nice if someone could confirm that :)
20:48 moritz it terminates within a second for me
20:48 moritz r16436
20:48 [particle] riffraff: platform?
20:48 riffraff linux, ubuntu 7
20:48 riffraff (now on win32)
20:49 riffraff usua x86 cpu (athlon)
20:56 weinigLap_ joined #perl6
20:59 diakopter wolverian: are you around?
20:59 wolverian yes
21:01 wolverian well, let's make sure: diakopter, a highlighted yes.
21:01 deq` joined #perl6
21:02 diakopter wolverian: :)
21:02 wolverian :)
21:03 obra Juerd: are there any other builds of perl5 on feather?
21:04 Juerd obra: Nafaik
21:04 obra *nod*
21:06 TimToady maybe trac installed a vm rootkit...
21:06 TimToady and now the python gang are spying on every keystroke...
21:06 obra Just for the hell of it, I'm going to build a 5.8.8 in my ~ to see if I get the same weird io performance
21:07 wolverian hrm. any ideas what irssi scripts could be taking lots of cpu?
21:07 TimToady Paranoids Я  Us
21:07 obra Ya.
21:08 TimToady :)
21:09 Juerd obra++  # "ya"
21:10 diakopter Juerd: anyone know why cron is set to renice all irssiz to -1 ?  It looks like someone tried to filter screen'd irssiz out, but failed.
21:11 Juerd There's this store "HEИDRIKSEN" that I keep reading as Heidriksen.
21:11 obra wow. ./configure.gnu is ... very slow
21:12 Juerd diakopter: To keep this ultra-interactive process at priority
21:12 Juerd diakopter: This has never been a problem, and shouldn't be, because irssi typically is done very quickly. It's just to prevent lag.
21:12 Juerd rkhunter is finished and found nothing special
21:12 diakopter ok... thanks.
21:13 wolverian Juerd, I'm running irssi at 10 now and don't notice a difference. then again feather isn't terribly loaded right now.
21:13 Juerd Hm, I saw htop running in top
21:13 Juerd Nice tool.
21:13 wolverian (only 11...)
21:13 Juerd Who was running that? Thanks.
21:13 diakopter that was me...
21:14 Juerd diakopter++
21:14 wolverian I ran it a week or ago, though ;)
21:14 Juerd wolverian: Its load is at 12.
21:14 wolverian s/or/or so/
21:14 wolverian Juerd, yeah. then I guess: irssi++ # still interactive
21:14 diakopter obra's configuring all of gnu
21:14 wolverian (or maybe the linux scheduler)
21:14 Juerd Wow, htop takes even more resources than top :)
21:14 diakopter yeah it's heavy
21:15 obra running perl's configure script...shouldn't be doing this
21:15 diakopter htop's tree view is nice
21:15 ruz joined #perl6
21:17 Juerd diakopter: I specifially like the nice- and nice+ :)
21:18 diakopter svk info is using *tons* of cpu every so often, when called from examples/network/evalbot/evalbot-loop, but I don't see any !eval lately.  could people be messaging it directly or is that a normal part of the loop?
21:18 moritz that's... nice *SCNR*
21:18 Juerd I hae no idea
21:18 moritz diakopter: the looks is propably to ensure it's rebuild every so often
21:19 moritz s/looks/loop/
21:19 tenen yes, it's to check if it needs to rebuild pugs
21:19 Juerd wolverian: What kinds of irssi scripts do you run, by the way?
21:19 tenen perhaps you could commit a method of checking that used less cpu
21:20 diakopter it could be switched to an svn commit-hook (with a forced wait-after-rebuild, and perhaps a !rebuildYourself command to force it), now that the repo is on the same machine.
21:20 wolverian Juerd, I use hilightwin, go, wlstat, people, scriptassist, keepnick, dccstat, thistory, title, hideauth, bitlbee_tab_completion, usercount, cleanlinkchan, buf, splitlong
21:21 wolverian I wonder if there's an irssi profiling plugin
21:21 Juerd bitlbee_tab_completion is only active on tab presses, buf is only active on /upgrade, splitlong only for outgoing stuff
21:21 Juerd scriptassist is safe, keepnick ought to be safe
21:21 Juerd The rest I don't know
21:22 Juerd If you're in a lot of active channels, things that process incoming output can damage performance
21:22 Juerd Especially if brain dead regexes are used
21:22 wolverian I'll look into it. thanks.
21:22 * diakopter filters out wolverian's irssi from the cron renicer temporarily
21:23 * wolverian feels fat
21:23 IllvilJa joined #perl6
21:24 obra Juerd: just for testing, would you be up for renicing my ./configure.gnu to a high priority?
21:24 obra I'm curious to see if I'm just low in the IO queue or what.
21:24 obra (I'm seeing about 3s per syscall check from configure. it's Impressive)
21:25 Juerd obra: Go ahead
21:27 obra About the same
21:27 Juerd Then restore its priority please
21:28 Juerd irssi is noticeably lagging
21:28 wolverian hrm. none of my scripts really parse input in large amounts
21:28 obra ok
21:28 Juerd wolverian: Anything that registers signal "message public"?
21:28 obra restored
21:29 SamB joined #perl6
21:30 wolverian Juerd, a few. looking
21:30 Juerd wolverian: Quite often, those have inefficient (.*) regexes and re-emit themselves.
21:31 wolverian ah. hm. I think it might be people
21:31 Juerd Don't blame the machine. Blame people!
21:31 wolverian the script ;)
21:31 * wolverian disables it
21:32 Juerd Holy crap that script is huge
21:32 wolverian it's.. useful
21:32 wolverian though it has features that have nothing to do with a people system
21:32 japhb wolverian: what does it do?
21:32 wolverian (like nick colours..)
21:32 Juerd It better be, otherwise its usefulness/lines ratio would be very low... Like Brainfuck :)
21:32 wolverian japhb, userlist with auto-opping, etc.. and lots of vaguely relevant things
21:33 wolverian anyway, it's disabled for now.
21:33 wolverian vim++ # vimgrep
21:33 Juerd It does rather heavy things
21:33 Juerd Like retrieving multiple settings per incoming line. Understandable, though.
21:34 obra Juerd: next time you reboot, will you try audrey's trivial line-of-perl tests?
21:34 wolverian I don't really see any way around it
21:34 Juerd obra: How is that related to rebooting?
21:34 wolverian it's not an essential script, so no worries if I can't use it
21:34 Juerd obra: I'm sitting right next to feather. I can reboot it right now if you think that'll help
21:34 Juerd wolverian: Could you /upgrade now to reset your CPU counter? :)
21:34 wolverian sure :)
21:35 Juerd Thanks
21:35 Juerd buf.pl is the only Irssi script that I wrote and still use.
21:35 Jmax what does it do?
21:35 Juerd (Speaking of slow scripts...)
21:35 Jmax oh, neat
21:35 obra Juerd: mostly, I'm curious to know if the issue is load related
21:35 Juerd Jmax: Store scroll buffers, and restore them after irssi's /upgrade has exec()ed a new irssi.
21:36 Juerd obra: If I reboot now, your perl compile is aborted
21:36 obra I don't want to inconvenience folks
21:36 weinigLap joined #perl6
21:36 Juerd obra: It needs reboots once in a while anyway
21:36 obra Juerd:  I'm ok with that. the ./configure being slow strongly suggests taht it's not in perl
21:37 Juerd obra: And it doesn't matter much at which time of the day you do it, there's always people using feather
21:37 obra Well, it's only been up a day ;)
21:37 isaacd joined #perl6
21:37 Juerd This is one of the reasons I want to make it a xen box by the way
21:37 wolverian that was a slow upgrade indeed
21:37 Juerd Then it can just suspend and resume in between reboots
21:38 Juerd wolverian: /upgrade+buf.pl on a slow box can cause a ping timeout...
21:38 wolverian ouch..
21:38 Juerd wolverian: I used to run irssi on a Pentium 100
21:38 obra heh. *nod*
21:38 Juerd buf.pl should be implemented in irssi's core, not in a script.
21:39 Juerd A few function calls PER LINE OF THE SCROLL BUFFER is way too much to do in Perl space :)
21:39 Juerd Scroll buffers tend to get large, and typically people have a dozen windows at least.
21:40 Juerd buf.pl was a proof of concept. But as it goes, the proof of concept worked and nobody wanted to spend time rewriting it in C.
21:40 Juerd Most people run irssi on dedicated fast idle boxes :)
21:40 Juerd wolverian: Hm, apparently exec doesn't replace the CPU counter. Ah well
21:42 rindolf joined #perl6
21:43 wolverian Juerd, aw. I can restart irssi.
21:44 Juerd wolverian: No, never mind.
21:48 meppl good night
21:50 perlDreamer joined #perl6
21:51 wolverian load is down now.. I hope it was obra's configure, not my irssi.. :)
21:52 perlDreamer ?eval {a => 1} eqv {a => 2}
21:52 evalbot_r16506 changed their nick to evalbot_r16507
21:52 evalbot_r16507 Error: ␤Unexpected end of input␤Closing hash curly may not terminate a line;␤please add a comma or a semicolon to disambiguate
21:52 perlDreamer ?eval {a => 1} eqv {a => 2};
21:52 evalbot_r16507 Bool::False
21:53 Juerd wolverian: Hehe
21:53 perlDreamer ?eval !({a => 1} eqv {a => 2});
21:53 evalbot_r16507 Bool::True
21:53 * Juerd is configuring an old bleadperl just to see the load
21:54 perlDreamer ?eval ok(!({a => 1} eqv {a => 2}), "eqv on anonymous hash references (1)");
21:55 evalbot_r16507 Error: No such subroutine: &ok
21:56 Juerd Nah, load still goes up very quickly
21:56 obra Juerd: is it possible to add a non-mirrored disk into the mix?
21:56 obra even a small one
21:57 Juerd obra: I can add USB drives while it's running
21:57 Juerd obra: Do you need anything specific?
21:57 wolverian ?eval {a => 1} !eqv {b => 1};
21:57 Juerd obra: Note that I could write a GB at 67 MB/s and read it back at 110 GB/s. That suggests to me that disk I/O is not the problem.
21:57 evalbot_r16507 Bool::True
21:57 renormalist does something need to be restarted to make rnu.pugscode.org work again?
21:57 wolverian oo, that's implemented.
21:57 obra I just want to try my syscalls against something not raided.
21:57 perlDreamer wolverian: I was testing some things that are crashing pugs in a test
21:58 renormalist s/rnu/run/
21:58 perlDreamer but evalbot seems pretty happy with them
21:58 wolverian perlDreamer, strange
21:58 perlDreamer I'm going to update and rebuild
21:58 Juerd obra: Wait, I'll attach a small USB disk
22:00 Juerd I wonder if the kernel has usb support even :)
22:00 obra :)
22:00 Juerd It does
22:00 japhb Juerd: what about soft errors and other such problems on the physical drives ...?  Your test may not hit the problem areas of the disk, while something that gets used frequently *does* happen to be hitting the failing sectors ...
22:00 xinming_ joined #perl6
22:00 Juerd obra: /mnt/for-jesse-only
22:00 Juerd obra: Feel free to empty it if needed
22:00 Juerd japhb: Could be, but it doesn't report any of it. Do you know how to examine this?
22:01 obra ok :)
22:01 Jedai joined #perl6
22:01 japhb Juerd: I dunno, but smartmontools appeared in an apt-cache search.  That looks promising
22:01 Juerd It's really nice to have servers at a few yards away instead of a 1h30m drive
22:02 Juerd japhb: I was just installing that. I don't think it'll work on sata drives though
22:02 obra Juerd: yeah. that has the same horrible IO performance
22:03 japhb Hmmm, I would think if it supports both ATA and SCSI it's got a decent chance
22:03 obra Juerd: done. thanks.
22:03 obra "now I have no idea"
22:03 [particle] what's the magic eight ball say?
22:03 Juerd I've started smart short tests
22:03 Juerd s/smart/SMART/
22:04 Juerd 00:03 <@Juerd> purl: excuse for slow feather?
22:04 Juerd 00:03 <+purl> Juerd: Recursivity.  Call back if it happens again.
22:04 wolverian purl++
22:06 Juerd # 1  Short offline       Completed without error       00%     17438         -
22:06 Juerd (that's sda)
22:06 mikfire09 Juerd, smartmon does work on SATA drives.  I have it installed on my machine using SATA and it works fine.
22:06 Juerd # 1  Short offline       Completed without error       00%     17436         -
22:06 Juerd (that's sdb)
22:06 Juerd ?eval 17438/24
22:06 evalbot_r16507 8719/12
22:06 Juerd I hate that.
22:07 Juerd 726.583333333333
22:07 Juerd 2 years, that's about right.
22:07 drupek12 joined #perl6
22:07 wolverian completed without error: 00%
22:07 wolverian (cough)
22:07 Juerd Num  Test_Description    Status                  Remaining  LifeTime(hours)  LBA_of_first_error
22:07 Juerd wolverian: status: completed without error, remaining: 00%
22:07 wolverian ah.
22:08 japhb ?eval Num(17438/24)
22:08 Juerd Doing long test on sda.
22:08 Juerd Don't be surprised if disk access is slow now.
22:08 evalbot_r16507 Error: No such subroutine: &Num
22:08 japhb ?eval my Num $foo = 17438/24; $foo
22:08 evalbot_r16507 \8719/12
22:08 wolverian isn't Num the generic "any number type"
22:09 wolverian what's Float called? Float? :)
22:09 Juerd eh, Float?
22:09 japhb ?eval my num $foo = 17438/24; $foo
22:09 evalbot_r16507 \8719/12
22:09 Juerd Why would floats have a special type? That's just Num.
22:09 mikfire09 ?eval +(17438/24);
22:09 Juerd japhb: Pugs doesn't do native types afaik
22:10 Juerd ?eval my aoeuaoeu $foo = 17438/24; $foo
22:10 japhb Juerd: yeah, sigh.
22:10 evalbot_r16507 8719/12
22:10 evalbot_r16507 \8719/12
22:10 Juerd It doesn't really do *types*, apparently :)
22:10 wolverian Juerd, they're different in haskell... ;)
22:10 japhb ?eval my num $foo = (17438/24) ** 1.0; $foo
22:10 Juerd wolverian: Perl's not haskell, so that doesn't answer the question :)
22:10 evalbot_r16507 \8719/12
22:10 wolverian Juerd, to differentiate between rationals and irrationals I suppose
22:10 Juerd ?eval 17438.0/24.0
22:11 japhb ?eval my num $foo = ((17438/24) ** 0.5) ** 2; $foo
22:11 evalbot_r16507 8719/12
22:11 wolverian the foo/bars are even called Rats
22:11 wolverian but I don't think we have Irrats :)
22:11 evalbot_r16507 \899466600210769342731597381841/1237940039285380274899124224
22:11 Juerd Mice
22:11 japhb DAMMIT
22:11 Juerd japhb: Hahaha
22:11 thoughtpolice joined #perl6
22:13 ribasushi joined #perl6
22:13 japhb ?eval my num $foo = 2 ** (log(17438/24) / log(10)); $foo
22:13 japhb oops
22:13 evalbot_r16507 \7.266624873097622
22:13 japhb ?eval my num $foo = 2 ** (log(17438/24) / log(2)); $foo
22:13 evalbot_r16507 \726.5833333333331
22:13 japhb HAH!
22:14 japhb And it only ended up wrong by ~2 ulp
22:15 wolverian Juerd, anyway, you're right. I don't see a float type. I was thinking Num was a role, with integer, rational and irrational implementations (among others)
22:16 wolverian due to much haskelling lately, probably
22:16 diakopter slow feather?  Put it in a vacuum.  That will reduce drag by quite a bit.
22:21 SubStack joined #perl6
22:22 GeJ Hello all.
22:23 GeJ is everything right with svn.pugscode.org? I can't seem to be able to connect.
22:24 GeJ hum, well, now I can
22:25 GeJ sorry, please forgive me for the noise.
22:26 lichtkind joined #perl6
22:26 lichtkind ?eval @a = 1, 2; say @a;
22:27 evalbot_r16507 OUTPUT[12␤] Bool::True
22:27 lichtkind ?eval @a = 1, 2; say @a.perl;
22:27 evalbot_r16507 OUTPUT[[1, 2]␤] Bool::True
22:33 REPLeffect joined #perl6
22:36 TimToady by the way \1/2 is incorrect output, since it would mean (\1)/2 by precedence
22:36 Jedai ?eval my @array := [1, 2, 3]; @array.elems
22:36 evalbot_r16507 1
22:36 masak ouch.
22:36 TimToady woops
22:37 TimToady ?eval my @array := [1,2,3]; say +@array
22:37 evalbot_r16507 OUTPUT[1␤] Bool::True
22:37 masak that's a misfeature, mehopes
22:37 TimToady indeed
22:38 Jedai Well Audrey say it will be fixed before the next release
22:38 Jedai I was just checking
22:38 masak ah.
22:38 masak it does seem pretty fix-worthy
22:41 lichtkind i only tried to figure out what this .perl does
22:44 moritz lichtkind: output of perl code, like Data::Dumper does
22:45 lichtkind thanks
22:45 perlDreamer weird
22:45 perlDreamer This test passes
22:45 perlDreamer ok  {a => 1} === {a => 2}, "on anonymous hash references (1)";
22:45 perlDreamer but prints no test comment after it
22:45 perlDreamer and it also shouldn't pass
22:45 lichtkind moritz i currently proofread the IX perl6 article from renormalist, there i saw it the first time
22:45 perlDreamer is comma very binding?
22:46 moritz lichtkind: ok ;)
22:46 perlDreamer and if you parenthesize the boolean, then pugs pukes
22:47 moritz I might proofread as well if he wants to, but currently he's not on the channel
22:47 lichtkind moritz:  yeah he told me not to give that away since its for a big magazine
22:49 moritz lichtkind: quite understandable ;)
22:50 moritz lichtkind: do you read IX regularly?
22:51 lichtkind moritz:  no its boring
22:51 moritz most of it, yes ;)
22:51 lichtkind too much buzzhyping
22:57 lichtkind moritz:  but if you see something good id be interested
22:57 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
23:01 lichtkind good night
23:01 Aankhen`` Er, shouldn't the topic be a little more specific?
23:01 Aankhen`` As in, think twice before running `make install` rather than just installing Pugs?
23:01 moritz Aankhen``: it should... go ahead and improve it
23:02 topic for #perl6 is:
23:15 Aankhen`` So is the whole coerce:<as> syntax dead?
23:15 Aankhen`` Seems a shame.
23:15 Aankhen`` Unless there's something similar which I missed.
23:16 moritz can't you force coercion by forcing a context?
23:16 moritz ?eval ~("foobar" ~~ m/oo/)
23:16 evalbot_r16507 "oo"
23:16 Aankhen`` Yes, but that depends on, e.g. redefining prefix:<~> for your classes.
23:17 moritz and why do you want something else?
23:17 Aankhen`` Doesn't seem as universal as multi coerce:<as> (::?CLASS $self, Str $other) { ... } # or whatever the exact syntax was
23:17 wolverian I suggested 'method --> Str { ... }' .. :)
23:18 moritz why not use roles? "does Stringify"?
23:19 Aankhen`` Every object needs to `do Stringify` anyway, so why add a role for it?
23:19 wolverian why add a role, you have a type already (Str)
23:19 Aankhen`` (That is to say, any object could conceivably be interpolated into a string.)
23:29 TimToady I'm still thinking through the whole coerce/deep semantics thing.  I don't like the "is deep" approach much any more.
23:30 TimToady and we have to deal with "as" vs "to" issues.
23:31 TimToady which might or might not be the same as the difference between Str($x) and Str.new($x)
23:33 TimToady this also might interact with dduncan's desire to require a readonly copy of a potentially rw argument
23:33 Aankhen`` Fun. ^_^
23:33 Aankhen`` TimToady: I have to say, I don't envy you your job.
23:34 moritz language design is hard ;)
23:34 dduncan I would probably comment on this discussion, but I'm in the middle of another chat that is $work related
23:39 GeJ moritz: language design with continuous almost-realtime feedback from passionate users is harder.
23:44 TimToady language design in a vacuum is even harder.  :)
23:50 fridim joined #perl6
23:53 ntgrl joined #perl6

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