Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-05-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:14 ingy seen audreyt
00:16 integral joined #perl6
00:16 thoughtpolice ?seen audreyt
00:16 lambdabot audreyt is in #haskell and #perl6. I last heard audreyt speak 3h 58m 41s ago.
00:16 thoughtpolice :)
00:24 ingy :)
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03:30 cj ingy!
03:30 cj I was just thinking about you, as seen on #perl
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03:42 ingy hi cj
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04:01 audreyt time dd if=1024mb.bin of=/dev/null
04:01 audreyt oops, ww :)
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07:17 zzzz ?eval constant $N = 10; $N =5
07:18 evalbot_r16507 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 10
07:18 Aankhen`` Is the default level for regexes graphemes or characters?
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07:38 dduncan afaik, the default abstraction level for everything is the highest possible, which is generically called characters
07:38 dduncan and that often equals graphemes in practice
07:41 Aankhen`` Okay.  I'm trying to figure out whether this line from porting_howto is correct: \X                -> <.>                      # single grapheme
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09:14 renormalist ping moritz
09:14 moritz pong ;)
09:15 renormalist kannst du nebenan im talk gucken?
09:15 moritz wo?
09:15 moritz query?
09:16 renormalist ja, ich weiss nicht, wie das roh geht, ich hab hier ne KDE gui :-)
09:17 renormalist siehst du meinen (query?) text?
09:18 moritz ja
09:18 moritz don't you see mine?
09:19 renormalist erm, no
09:19 moritz damned, I'm not registered at freenode
09:19 renormalist :-)
09:19 moritz so I can't query you :(
09:19 moritz so, the answer is "yes"
09:19 moritz i can read through it right now
09:19 moritz are you on irc.perl.org as well?
09:19 renormalist yes
09:19 renormalist eg in catalyst
09:25 rindolf Hi moritz, renormalist
09:25 moritz hi rindolf ;)
09:35 renormalist hi rindolf
09:36 rindolf moritz: what's up?
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09:45 moritz could anybody with a feather account please start run.pugscode.org
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09:56 rindolf moritz: doesn't it require root?
09:56 rindolf moritz: and why don't you have a feather account?
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10:07 svnbot6 r16508 | moritz++ | t/operators/precedence/self-defined.t: added prefix <-> postfix tests,
10:07 svnbot6 r16508 | moritz++ | corrected ok() to is(), moritz--
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10:49 Juerd moritz: Do you use runpugs often?
10:50 Juerd moritz: If so, you're probably much better off using feather directly
10:51 moritz Juerd: no, I don't ... I just noticed that is was down
10:51 moritz I have pugs locally, so I don't really have a reason to use it
10:51 Juerd Okay
10:52 Juerd andara maintains runpugs and should start it
10:52 Juerd (Should have made it start at bootup)
10:52 Juerd I don't know if any manual environment setting up is needed
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13:28 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org | Beware of `make install` and Pugs, it will do bad things to your system
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13:29 moritz re
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13:38 fglock re lexical scope: methods and structure members cannot be lexically redefined, right?
13:38 fglock like:  my @a[10]
13:39 fglock like:  my X::meth {...}
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15:29 fglock oops - I meant like:  my method X::meth {...}
15:36 TimToady you can't use "my" on anything that is package qualified
15:37 TimToady and my @x[10] is declaring an array of 10 elements, not the 11th element of @x
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15:41 fglock TimToady: thanks - I was afraid I had to "fix" the implementation :)
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15:50 fglock I was supposed to be writing a talk on neuromuscular disease, but I find myself reading CS papers instead
15:53 TimToady "creating procrastination"
15:53 TimToady *creative rahter
15:53 TimToady *rather
15:53 * TimToady shouldn't type standing up
15:54 [particle] "creating procrastination" -- sounds like a book title
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15:55 args "in ten days"
15:55 fglock I think I'm most creative when I'm working on things I was not supposed to
16:02 Limbic_Region salutations all
16:02 moritz hi Limbic_Region ;)
16:03 * Limbic_Region is most creative when he is slightly off his rocker
16:04 rindolf Hi all.
16:04 rindolf Hi Limbic_Region, moritz , fglock
16:04 rindolf Limbic_Region: what's up?
16:05 Limbic_Region unfortunately, being slightly off my rocker means being more than a little unstable which is a non-option for me (have family to think about)
16:05 fglock Limbic_Region: yes, maybe the problem is with "too serious" work
16:05 Limbic_Region not much rindolf - work ATM, you?
16:05 rindolf Limbic_Region: oh I forgot it's not Saturday.
16:05 rindolf Limbic_Region: chillin'.
16:05 rindolf Limbic_Region: I've updated my FAQ.
16:05 rindolf I have another update.
16:06 rindolf And did a backup.
16:06 Limbic_Region the FAQ regarding copyrighted digital media or something else?
16:06 moritz I just tried to use ~~ in bleadperl
16:07 moritz Feature "~~" is not supported by Perl 5.9.5
16:07 moritz it says when I 'use feature qw(~~)'
16:07 args certainly, it's on by default.
16:07 args we judged it wasn't a syntax hazard enough to warrant mandating "use feature"
16:08 args and you can't turn it off actually. (like //)
16:08 args "use feature" is now only required for new keywords. which may clash (and do) with existing function names.
16:08 args also, "use 5.10" will do an implicit "use feature ':5.10'"
16:08 moritz args: thanks
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16:13 rindolf Limbic_Region: no, http://www.shlomifish.org/meta/FAQ/
16:13 lambdabot Title: Shlomi Fish' Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) List
16:13 rindolf Limbic_Region: it's my personal FAQ.
16:14 args do you get frequent questions about yourself ?
16:15 args nobody asks me anything :-(
16:16 moritz args: ?
16:16 moritz args: now somebody asked you anything ;)
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16:21 rindolf args: a/s/l?
16:21 rindolf ;-)
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16:22 args I'm a married man
16:23 Limbic_Region . o O ( on planet earth )
16:27 * jjore-w can never remember whether it is "use features ':5.10'" or "use feature ':5.10'". :-/
16:27 args just "use 5.10"
16:29 Jmax heh, i think he just meant the feature/features part
16:29 moritz Jmax: so he can be lazy and omit it ;)
16:30 [particle] use feature :creep;
16:30 [particle] that's on by default in all my $work projects :/
16:31 stef_ joined #perl6
16:34 japhb [particle]: heck, that's on by default in half of my personal projects!
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16:42 TimToady hmm :5.10 is a bit problematic from a p6 point of view
16:44 [particle] language interop at its finest :)
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16:57 amnesiac TimToady: why?
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17:26 riffraff hi everyone
17:26 * offby1 glances around nervously.
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18:02 spinclad TimToady: r14399's "group of" is a clear improvement, but could i suggest "collection" rather than "group" for us math people (though "group" is fine on a general english level)?
18:02 rindolf Hi riffraff
18:03 spinclad ((answer: too late, i've already gone and suggested it))
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18:24 cj anybody know if ingy's back in Seattle?
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18:38 offby1 I'll go look for him.
18:38 * offby1 pretends to go look
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18:41 obra cj: yes
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18:54 cj obra: well then... I should invite him to lunch.  you have his number?
18:55 gaal joined #perl6
18:56 obra I don't
18:57 cj d'oh.  his socialtext vm says he's "not available"
18:57 cj they call him 'i-n-g-y d-o-t- n-e-t'.  ha.
18:58 obra cj: his PASSPORT calls him ingy-dot-net
18:58 cj it should be ö of course
18:59 cj obra: you're kidding
18:59 cj that's pretty crazy
19:01 cj his kwiki.org whois data says he lives in Oregon
19:01 cj but it sounds like him on the vm that answers the phone number there...
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19:15 svnbot6 r16509 | tumulus++ | Fill in some missing "how to make this non-ASCII operator in vi" entries
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19:44 dduncan TimToady, I think that synopsis r14401 is a vast improvement, so congrats there
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19:49 wolverian I'm having trouble with feather
19:49 wolverian no route to host now and then
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19:51 tumulus hello - just want to check some Perl 6 before I commit a test for a bug
19:51 tumulus my $l = 5; say "$l {$l} {my $l=123} $l";
19:51 tumulus outputs "5 5 123 5" as I'd expect
19:52 tumulus is there any reason that
19:52 tumulus my $l = 5; say "$l {$l} {my $l=123} {$l}";
19:52 tumulus shouldn't do exactly the same?
19:52 tumulus (difference is $l vs {$l} at the end)
19:53 moritz I don't know... do multiple {} interpolations compose the same closure?
19:54 TimToady certainly not
19:54 rindolf Hi wolverian, TimToady
19:54 rindolf We're discussing COBOL on #perlcafe
19:54 amnesiac isn't pugs backend written in cobol?
19:54 tumulus so the test should expect the same output in both cases?
19:55 TimToady yes
19:55 tumulus super - thanks :-)
19:55 moritz amnesiac: certainly not ;)
19:55 amnesiac ;)
19:56 dduncan TimToady, the last synopsis improvement was big ... I also liked the new names for the roles that the sigils represent ... better than having roles like the type names but not like the types
19:57 TimToady thought about those a long time...
19:57 dduncan not surprised
19:58 TimToady kinda hard to describe Essence of Sigil :)
20:07 rhandom I had often wondered at the usefulness of the % and @ sigils (similar to thoughts in recent threads) - but the new synopsis really helps lay out the beauty of the sigils.
20:08 rhandom It is a sort of nirvana
20:08 rhandom well maybe not nirvana - but I really like the roles.
20:08 rhandom it sort of opens the doors for all sorts of wonderful magic
20:09 * PerlJam checks his email to see if he missed an important update to S02
20:10 PerlJam cool
20:11 PerlJam TimToady++
20:11 moritz yes, it clears up some things
20:11 svnbot6 r16510 | tumulus++ | add some extra tests for string interpolation with closures,
20:11 svnbot6 r16510 | tumulus++ | particularly the currently breaking:
20:11 svnbot6 r16510 | tumulus++ |   my $l=1; say "{my $l=2} {$l}";
20:12 PerlJam Though "set with additional behaviors" is an unsatisfying description ofa Junction.  (But I don't have anything better either)
20:13 PerlJam moritz: yeah, just the paragraph on scalars should be enough for those people who are trying to get rid of the other sigils.
20:14 moritz long live the sigil++!
20:14 moritz @karma sigil
20:14 lambdabot sigil has a karma of 0
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20:28 tumulus ?eval my $x=1; { my $x=2;}; say $x;
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20:28 evalbot_r16510 OUTPUT[1␤] Bool::True
20:30 tumulus ?eval my $l = 5; say "{my $l=123} {$l}";
20:30 evalbot_r16510 OUTPUT[123 5␤] Bool::True
20:30 * tumulus discovers that it's his own local build that is broken
20:34 moritz tumulus: I hope that you write the test cases anyway ;)
20:34 Aankhen`` Couple of questions.
20:34 tumulus indeed - already committed :-)
20:35 Aankhen`` 1. regex foo { { #{{ CLOSURE 1 }} } ... { #{{ CLOSURE 2 }} } } # is there a way to declare a variable within CLOSURE 1 that's scoped to the regex, so that it can be viewed from CLOSURE 2?
20:35 TimToady $<foo>
20:35 Aankhen`` 2. Is the spelling of the implicitly parallelized loop `hyperfor` or `hyper for`?  If it's the later, may I ask how it reaches into the innards of the `for`? :-S
20:35 TimToady automatically scoped to the current $/
20:35 Aankhen`` But that sticks it onto the result object, which means it's visible beyond the regex, doesn't it?
20:36 Aankhen`` Oh.
20:36 Aankhen`` Hmm.
20:36 Aankhen`` Right.
20:36 Aankhen`` Thanks. ^_^
20:36 TimToady it's hyper for
20:36 TimToady yes, you may ask
20:36 TimToady :)
20:36 Aankhen`` Consider it asked!
20:37 moritz ;)
20:37 TimToady same way eager vs lazy propagates context inward
20:37 Aankhen`` Ahh.
20:37 TimToady hyper is just an eager variant
20:37 Aankhen`` Okay.
20:37 Aankhen`` I started thinking about that last night before I went to sleep and it was driving me crazy. :-P
20:42 moritz I don't like the "hyper" key word, because it tells the compiler what to do... I'd better like "pure", because it describes your own code
20:42 moritz but they are not always identical, so it wouldn't be a good idea to use that either
20:43 TimToady we could change lazy, eager, and hyper to slow, medium, and fast. :)
20:44 Aankhen`` LOL.
20:44 TimToady or maybe lazy, impatient, and hubristic
20:44 TimToady in the sense of "I deserve all these CPUs running at once..."
20:44 moritz lol
20:44 Aankhen`` warpspeed for @foo -> $a { say "You only THINK there's just one parameter here." }
20:44 wolverian it's more like "do more work" than "be faster"
20:46 TimToady actually, one could argue that the faster variants do less work
20:46 TimToady eager doesn't have to keep track of the iterators and continuations
20:46 moritz with multiple CPUs faster != less work
20:46 TimToady and hyper doesn't have to keep the processes in sequence
20:46 wolverian it depends on how much of the result you use
20:47 TimToady eager and hyper both promise that you really want it all, more or less
20:47 wolverian but it's not explicit in the name
20:47 TimToady eager says "burn memory" and hyper says "burn CPUs"
20:48 wolverian (not saying it should be, just pointing out they're different to lazy in that sense)
20:48 moritz and eval says "burn code" ;)
20:48 wolverian TimToady, I like that definition. .)
20:48 wolverian s/\.)/:)/
20:49 TimToady if we renamed "hyper" we'd also have to rename hyperoperators
20:49 moritz I'm not really suggesting to rename "hyper", I was just pondering idly ;)
20:51 TimToady we could name them neurotypical, autistic, and ADHDish  :)
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20:56 moritz or maybe the names of some perl developers
20:57 moritz larry, randal, damian
20:57 moritz perhaps in a different order ;)
21:02 rindolf moritz: I want to be an operator in Perl!
21:02 moritz rindolf: since you can define operators for yourself, that's no problem
21:03 moritz sub prefix:<rindolf> { say "foo" }; my $a = rindolf"42"
21:03 moritz or something ;)
21:03 Aankhen`` multi *postfix:<rindolf> (Str $operand) { $operand ~= " rindolf'd"; }
21:03 Aankhen`` Well, `Str $operand is rw`.
21:04 rindolf Aankhen``: what does ~= do?
21:04 rindolf Aankhen``: wasn't it supposed to be ~~?
21:04 Aankhen`` ~ is the string concatenation operator.
21:04 rindolf Aankhen``: oh, OK.
21:04 Aankhen`` So that function appends " rindolf'd" to the string.
21:04 rindolf Aankhen``: OK.
21:04 Aankhen`` Hmm.
21:05 Aankhen`` multi *postfix:<rindolf> (Str $operand) { "<rindolf>$operand</rindolf>" }
21:05 Aankhen`` ?eval multi *postfix:<rindolf> (Str $operand) { "<rindolf>$operand</rindolf>" }; "abcd" rindolf
21:06 evalbot_r16510 Error: Odd number of elements found where hash expected: VStr "abcd"
21:06 Aankhen`` :-(
21:07 moritz Aankhen``: I think posfix ops can't have a whitespace in front of them
21:08 moritz ?eval multi *postfix:<rindolf> (Str $operand) { "<rindolf>$operand</rindolf>" }; "abcd"rindolf
21:08 evalbot_r16510 Error: Odd number of elements found where hash expected: VStr "abcd"
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21:38 Tene I don't see any tests in t/ for defining circumfix operators.  Is that accurate, or do I not know what I'm looking for?
21:40 moritz in unspecced/sub_application.t there are a few method postcircumfix:<( )>
21:40 Tene Yes, but that's postcircumfix, not circumfix.
21:40 moritz oh, sorry
21:41 moritz operators/operator_overloading.t: two circumfix macros
21:42 moritz but there's need for more
21:43 moritz should circumfix:<[[ ]]> or some such work?
21:44 Tene That's what I'm seeing in the spec.
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21:58 meppl good night
21:58 moritz Tene: are you writing a test?
21:58 Tene moritz: I wanted to check if there was a reason that it wasn't already tested where other operator definitions are tested.
21:59 * moritz can't think of any
22:01 rhandom i know this isn't on topic - how do you call a builtin from XS
22:02 offby1 very carefully
22:02 rhandom :)
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22:27 PerlJam rhandom: Perl 6 doesn't have XS
22:28 rhandom i know - hence the not on topic
22:28 moritz PerlJam: not yet ;)
22:28 rhandom there are just many bright perl 5 people here to
22:28 offby1 presumably, integration with C will be lovely in p6
22:28 rhandom I think NCI will be great
22:28 offby1 Lawd knows it's skeery in p5
22:29 PerlJam moritz: not ever!
22:29 Aankhen`` NCI?
22:29 rhandom In parrot - not sure how it ties in at Perl 6 yet.  Native Call Interface (i think)
22:29 moritz PerlJam: actually I never used it ;) (happy /me I guess)
22:29 Aankhen`` Ah.
22:30 PerlJam rhandom: The plan is for Perl to have some form of NCI-like thingy, but it is yet unspecced.
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