Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-05-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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04:44 spinclad TimToady: r14401++  # very nice and well needed (not my part of it, that was trivial)
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06:01 meppl good morning
06:06 Aankhen`` Hi meppl. :-)
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07:36 Tene Are there currently plans for what happens to perl when TimToady dies?
07:36 dduncan hopefully that will be a long ways off
07:37 dduncan and in the meantime, presumably he is grooming successors and/or others will be able to take over the vision
07:37 dduncan there are other @Larry
07:38 Tene 'kay
07:38 Tene Just curious.
07:39 Alias_ I would imagine that ownership reverts to the Perl Foundation and the Foundation Steering Committee would then take over
07:39 Alias_ Or something vaguely along those lines
07:40 Tene ahh
07:40 dduncan Perl 6 belongs to TPF already, or some parts
07:40 Alias_ There's too many jobs and morgages at stake to not have it comprehensively in place
07:40 dduncan other parts to who wrote them
07:40 Alias_ mortgages
07:41 dduncan and I imagine that if people have copyright of anything important, they stated in their wills what might happen with them
07:41 Alias_ Or it's open source
07:41 dduncan well that helps too
07:41 Alias_ Good point though...
07:41 Alias_ I've left instructions with my parents, but hadn't considered copyright assignments etc
07:41 dduncan personally I did explicitly state what happens to my copyrights in my last will update
07:42 dduncan fyi, I can revise later, but in short, my will says my copyrights all go to the FSF, and everything else of mine to my family
07:42 dduncan so that's what's on right now
07:42 Alias_ Since audrey stayed at my parent's place I pretty much just gave them "Don't touch the computers, email audrey and she'll let the appropriate people know"
07:43 Alias_ Plus sheriff now has root on the server with my repository
07:43 Alias_ :)
07:43 Alias_ in the sense that it's HIS machine :)
07:43 dduncan especially if recipients are individuals rather than corporate entities like foundations, several should be listed, in case any others predie you
07:44 dduncan fyi, in the long term I'll probably start my own foundation, and then that will be the copyright recipient instead
07:44 Alias_ Well, all my stuff is either under the Perl license, or the people that care have the appropriate licenses so they don't need to care
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07:44 Alias_ Foundations are a bitch
07:44 Alias_ ust give it to Richard Stallman, they'll take any old crap
07:44 dduncan well I'm not doing that short term
07:45 dduncan fyi, the foundation I had in mind would have the mission to preserve and spread information
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07:45 Alias_ which information?
07:45 dduncan it should be different than any currently existing ones
07:45 dduncan anything useful
07:45 Alias_ fair enough
07:45 dduncan sort of like the mission of archives
07:46 Alias_ Anyways, gotta run
07:48 svnbot6 r16511 | rhr++ | [examples/unitsdat-grammar.pl] eliminate repetitive actions (even less repetition would be nice)
07:54 Aankhen`` rhr: Have you considered moving unitsdat-grammar.pl under the rules subdir?
08:02 rhr Aankhen``: not sure where it should go.  I intend to turn it into Units.pm, so maybe it should really go under ext/, but until then I'll move it to rules/
08:02 Aankhen`` Ah.
08:06 Aankhen`` I just put a few other grammars in there, so I thought they could all keep each other company. ^_^
08:06 svnbot6 r16512 | rhr++ | [unitsdat-grammar.pl] moved to examples/rules for now.  fix a typo.
08:06 rhr I'll have to look at them :)
08:07 Aankhen`` Please do, any feedback would be appreciated.
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09:12 moritz is there a web interface like trac or so for the specs repository? if yes: where?
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10:43 riffraff hi everyone
10:45 riffraff the PIR backend is utterly broken? I ws trying to run pugs -CPIR on a simple for loop and it generates a _huge_ output wihile -BPIR fails with "too many errors"
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11:05 moritz riffraff: yes, it's broken :(
11:07 riffraff nice to know
11:07 riffraff I can delete parrot completely I believe :)
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14:03 rindolf Hi all.
14:03 moritz hi rindolf ;)
14:03 moritz rindolf: what's up?
14:04 rindolf moritz: I'm fine. Stayed up all night and chatted on the IRC.
14:04 rindolf moritz: however, in the afternoon I was able to get some sleep.
14:04 rindolf moritz: and I did some Cognitive Psychology exercises.
14:06 moritz rindolf: any answers from your TPF funding queries?
14:06 rindolf moritz: no, not yet.
14:06 BooK sleep is good
14:06 rindolf moritz: not even a confirmation.
14:06 BooK I wish I had more
14:06 rindolf BooK: yes, it is.
14:06 rindolf BooK: lately I've been staying up late and waking up lately.
14:07 rindolf moritz: maybe I should ask the people on irc.perl.org about it.
14:07 moritz rindolf: or just give them a bit more time - after all it's a foundation ;)
14:07 rindolf moritz: yes.
14:08 rindolf moritz: well, I just want to know if they received them.
14:08 rindolf moritz: for some reason Ovid is rarely on IM.
14:08 rindolf That sucks.
14:08 rindolf I have MSN, Jabber, AIM, ICQ and Yahoo and keep them connected all the time.
14:09 rindolf And they are publicised on my site.
14:09 rindolf I got contacted by a Chinese spammer on MSN. Had to block him.
14:11 moritz and are you still able to work? even my few irc channels decrease my productivity significantly ;-)
14:11 rindolf moritz: yes.
14:11 rindolf moritz: IRC tends to be more distracting than IM.
14:11 rindolf moritz: which is why I often keep it off.
14:18 BooK yeah, IM sits quietly, and is silent when nobody talks to you
14:18 BooK in irc, there always someone with something to say :)
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15:06 moritz @tell fglock do you have any linkable web page on mp6/kp6?
15:06 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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15:57 svnbot6 r16513 | moritz++ | [irclog] minor modifications
15:57 svnbot6 r16513 | moritz++ |  * added a list of links for #perl6 irc logs
15:57 svnbot6 r16513 | moritz++ |  * set mime-type for all .tmpl file to text/html
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16:15 svnbot6 r16514 | moritz++ | t/operators/relational.t: fixed smartlink for cmp (pointed to eqv before)
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18:36 svnbot6 r16515 | moritz++ | added t/builtins/math/complex.t with tests for cis and unpolar builtins
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18:42 fglock moritz: re mp6/kp6 page, no
18:42 lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:44 fglock I have time for Perl 6 again - I just presented my talk
18:45 moritz which talk?
18:45 japhb fglock: how did it go?
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18:46 fglock japhb: very nice; the person that presented with me is a specialist on stem cells
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18:46 japhb fglock: cool beans
18:46 japhb What is your actual $day_job, anyway?
18:47 fglock I work in a Technological Research Institute, in a University
18:48 fglock http://www.pucrs.br/ideia/
18:48 lambdabot Title: PUCRS :: Idéia - Instituto de Pesquisa & Desenvolvimento
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18:48 japhb What does a TRI actually mean?  That you are a grad student?
18:49 PerlJam japhb: He's a full-time academic no matter what else he is  :)
18:50 japhb PerlJam: nodnod
18:50 fglock no, I'm a technician; but I'm also a PhD student (unrelated)
18:50 japhb Ah, got it?
18:50 japhb unrelated meaning entirely different fields, or same field just different projects?
18:52 fglock entirely different fields; work is CS related, study is Biomedical Engineering/Neurology
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18:53 * japhb is duly impressed
18:54 PerlJam I did biological engineering for a while ... but 4 kids is enough for me  ;-)
18:55 fglock making 4 kids is some form of biological engineering
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18:57 svnbot6 r16516 | moritz++ | added t/builtins/strings/p5chop.t
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18:58 fglock I studied Medicine, but then made a Msc in CS because that's what I wanted to work on
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18:59 moritz in t/unspecced/chop.t there are two specced and a few unspecced chop tests...
18:59 moritz should I just leave them that way, or move the tests that cover the spec to builtins/strings/chop.t?
19:00 fglock moritz: probably move
19:03 moritz fglock: ok, thanks
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19:11 svnbot6 r16517 | moritz++ | moved the spec covered parts of t/unspecced/chop.t
19:11 svnbot6 r16517 | moritz++ | to t/builtins/string/chop.t
19:11 fglock re mp6/kp6/v6.pm - I'm trying to unify into a single perl6-in-perl6 project; v6.pm would be 6-in-6 with a p5 backend
19:13 renormalist fglock: do you blog or write about this project somewhere? I'm interested but not enough on irc to follow.
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19:16 japhb fglock: Just so you know, many people give you karma, but I actually want to say "Thanks.  What you've been working on is very cool and important, and helped keep energy up when life was assaulting some of the team.  So, again, thank you."
19:17 moritz perlbot: karma fglock
19:17 perlbot Karma for fglock: 201
19:17 fglock renormalist: there is http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/​v6/v6-KindaPerl6/docs/FAQ.pod - but it's a bit old
19:18 moritz which is, despite its name, not in POD ;-)
19:18 fglock japhb: I've been a bit burn out lately, actually - but I think it's over :)
19:19 renormalist fglock++
19:19 fglock moritz: oops - right
19:20 renormalist fglock: maybe you can share some milestones in thinking on pugs.blogs.com. I looooove to read Perl6 related articles there.
19:20 japhb fglock: well, pushing on this stuff while you had both a day job and a PhD to worry about can be tiring.  But you did so, and I for one am impressed how long you lasted!
19:21 renormalist fglock: of course, only if you have fun writing about it. At least I imagine I'm not the only one who had fnu reading it.
19:21 fglock japhb: I wish there was more integration between the Perl 6 teams, but I'm not sure we can fix this through IRC
19:21 renormalist fglock: I understand and it's ok
19:22 japhb fglock: agreed.  Part of the problem seems to be that many of the core team members have had streaks of bad luck on the RL side.  I can't even count how many times I've read the cabal phone call notes and seen one or more people say "Well, life got in the way all week ...."
19:23 japhb And it's hard to communicate when you can't spend much time on the project at all.
19:23 fglock renormalist: I find it a problem discussing plans in a public place, because it brings non-productive comments like "how about parrot" and such
19:25 renormalist fglock: and indeed you are right. people like results. pugs.blogs.com is a place to consume results. so I agree to your strategy.
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19:25 fglock otoh, 6-in-6 will only have results when it's ready, so it's a paradox
19:26 renormalist anyway, maybe next time you can pose some cool stuff, remember us perl6 blog consumers :-)
19:26 moritz well, STD.pm is a step towards 6-in-6, and moste people quite like the idea ;)
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19:28 japhb A lot of the issue is just keeping the community excited, feeling like there is momentum.  Just being vocal about any progress being made tends to get people more excited and interested, and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
19:31 japhb The obvious comment at this point is "Gee Geoff, why don't you do it if you think it's such a good idea?"  And the answer is honestly one of time -- not that I have none, but that I am spending it all on preparing for when things are farther along, rather than working on the current state of things.  My hope is that my choice turns out valuable in the end and makes better use of my skill mix ....
19:31 renormalist japhb: agreed. unfortunately it's quite difficult to get foot in the door on any non-perl related media/press. I currently think, we need to spread the word outside the current perl6 community and outside the perl community. Which is difficult because most of them just can't imagin what happens here
19:32 japhb Nodnod.
19:33 fglock I was reading the archived Perl 6 mailing list from near aug-2000, yesterday
19:33 japhb That will get a LOT easier when 6.283 is out, methinks
19:33 japhb Of course, first we have to get 6.28 out.
19:33 moritz renormalist: the problem with spreading the word is that people will say "I want to try it", and then discover that they need GHC to compile pugs, that kp6 doesn't have much runtime (I think) and parrot doesn't optimize very much
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19:35 moritz renormalist: so I do appreiciate your effort to concentrate on features that are implemented
19:35 japhb moritz: right.  And before 6.283, the "killer feature" that I think people will be willing to start using *even before it's optimized* isn't there yet.  What currently works I think we can all agree is damned cool, but it's not enough to get the attention of, say, a died-in-the-wool Python addict.
19:35 moritz in your article, that is
19:35 fglock it would take a big engineering effort to integrate together the best of each project
19:36 renormalist moritz: GHC isn't such a big problem. It can be propagated with "you always wanted a haskell, didn't you?" The "want to try" is more an aspect between Propaganda an reality, so IMHO ...
19:36 * japhb wishes this was all as simple as applying cash, because then we could spend our efforts on getting funding.
19:36 moritz japhb: well, audreyt told us she'd work more on pugs if she got paid for it
19:36 renormalist moritz: ...  it's important to only write about things that currently really works in Pugs. Not a single feature that doesn't work may be named
19:37 fglock but cash is good anyway :)
19:37 moritz japhb: of course that's not all there is to it, but it would be a start
19:37 japhb moritz: I would believe that, except that what's kept her out of the game (at least publicly) has had nothing to do with that.
19:38 moritz japhb: I know
19:39 japhb We also have to deal with the now-infamous Debian problem where they attempted to pay a few contributors full time, and a whole bunch of other contributors quit in protest.
19:40 japhb Of course, that may have been a "devil in the details" issue.  IIRC the "buy Damian for a year" thing went over pretty well.
19:41 renormalist in my opinion it is time to get some CPAN authors to start try porting their modules to Perl 6. that yould get quite a lot momentum. because we have of current cool and working features in Pugs
19:41 moritz japhb: Debian is specifically fond on their free software philosophy, IMHO much more than most perl folks
19:41 moritz japhb: and nobody complained about the microgrants as well
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19:41 fglock re available time - I don't really work many hours in Pugs, except when fixing bugs
19:42 moritz renormalist: right, but there is no mechanism on CPAN to distribute that
19:42 japhb moritz: right, but as I recall the Debian issue was "We're all trying to get this release out the door ... why is their task more important than mine?"  Almost jealousy, but I'm not sure that was it.  Righteous indignation?
19:42 renormalist svn checkout pugs/ext. That's enough to start. IMHO, of course
19:42 renormalist moritz: svn checkout pugs/ext. That's enough to start. IMHO, of course
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19:43 moritz japhb: the problem was that it was officially outside of debian, but started by the DPL at that time (aj)
19:43 japhb renormalist: I can say from personal porting experience that the Pugsbugs are frequent enough to make some of the porting a real slog rather than -Ofun right now.  I understand that a lot of my particular issues will go away shortly after 6.28, but again, we're still not there yet.
19:43 moritz japhb: and that caused a lot of bad press, because it smelled like deceit or something
19:43 japhb moritz: I stand corrected.  I only saw a few bits here and there.
19:44 moritz japhb: but of course the TPF needs to be carefull with founds - I think that microgrant thing was a good way of doing it
19:44 renormalist Debian is generally a a more complicated project. Much larger plus its own democracy plus freedom plus a hard world
19:44 japhb moritz: I agree
19:44 fglock re bad press - I guess that's why #parrot is not logged
19:45 renormalist so I think problems in Debian were "normal"
19:45 japhb fglock: which seems a crying shame to me.
19:45 moritz fglock: the official reason is different, and I'm inclined to believe it ;)
19:45 japhb moritz: which is?
19:45 moritz for design questions there is #parrotsketch
19:46 moritz and #parrot should be informal, with more privacy
19:46 moritz so it's not considered important
19:46 moritz but they are rethinking their no-logging policy, Coke told me
19:46 japhb nodnod
19:47 japhb I can't imagine that people are very good at keeping design discussion out of #parrot.
19:47 japhb It will just slip in.
19:47 fglock hmm - design questions - I've got some of these :)
19:47 japhb heh
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19:47 moritz japhb: when I was in #parrot, there were actually many implementation questions, discussions about regressions etc...
19:48 japhb nodnod, I suspected as much
19:48 moritz japhb: but not many or even none relevant design quetions
19:49 moritz I didn't understand most if it because I have no idea of parrot's internals, so left again ;)
19:50 japhb I don't understand separating design and implementation.
19:50 japhb They are inextricably intertwined
19:51 moritz go and look for yourself ;)
19:51 moritz perhaps I ill-judged it because I was used #perl6, which has quite a lot of design discussions ;)
19:52 japhb nodnod
19:52 moritz anyway, /me is reading "yet another haskell tutorial", in the hope that I'll learn it before perl6 is fully implemented in perl6 ;-)
19:52 fglock re design - I'd like to have reviews of the kp6 architecture
19:53 moritz fglock: ask on slashdot *SCNR* ;)
19:53 japhb I gave Haskell a try -- and discovered it and my brain just don't fit.
19:53 obvio171_ changed their nick to obvio171
19:54 japhb $Larry apparently had the same problem, which made me feel a bit better.
19:54 moritz I learned a bit of scheme back in school, I hope that will help ;)
19:55 japhb Scheme wasn't too bad.  A little odd, mind you, but not too bad.
19:55 moritz it was a CS course, and the teacher didn't want that those with programming experience to have an advantage ;)
19:56 fglock moritz: would you like to work on perl6-in-perl6?
19:56 japhb heh
19:56 Tene moritz: what if they had prior scheme experience? ;)
19:56 moritz Tene: nobody had, we were only 9 or 10 in that course
19:56 moritz fglock: I'd like to, but I've never even touched a compiler before
19:57 moritz fglock: and my understanding of perl 6 and 5 are not that good either
19:57 fglock it doesn't bite (much)
19:57 moritz that's what they all say
19:58 moritz my next step would be to look at Prelude.pm if I can implement a few simple math functions, like cis or unpolar or some such
19:58 moritz fglock: if you have a better idea, you're welcome to tell me ;)
20:00 renormalist pugs question: is ext/ only for working modules and I have to start them soewhere els or do I start in ext/ also if they are not running yet
20:01 renormalist ?
20:01 moritz renormalist: they should compile at least, and all tests that fail should be marked :todo
20:01 japhb I think it's safe to start there, renormalist
20:01 fglock moritz: maybe I should learn Haskell too
20:02 moritz maybe ;)
20:02 fglock renormalist: for really experimental stuff, you can use misc/pX/Common/
20:02 renormalist m'kay, thx
20:08 svnbot6 r16518 | moritz++ | added t/builtins/strings/p5chomp.t
20:08 * moritz seeks volunteers to write a test for unicode normalization ;-)
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20:09 moritz or, even better, many of them ;)
20:14 fglock @tell audreyt: do you think it would make sense to start some bootstrapping work for pugs?
20:14 lambdabot Consider it noted.
20:14 rhr moritz: where is unicode normalization stuff specced?  pugs now has working .codes and .graphs so it would be pretty easy to write some simple tests.
20:15 moritz rhr: in S29, "normalize"
20:15 fglock rhr: see "normalize" in http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs​/docs/Perl6/Spec/Functions.pod
20:15 fglock heh
20:16 moritz rhr: it basically refers to the unicode specs
20:16 rhr moritz: thanks, looking
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20:18 renormalist how are the modules in ext/ cpompiled/tested? Do I use "perl Makefile.PL" or "pugs Makefile.PL"?
20:19 renormalist and whats that WritePugs(6) in the Makefile,PL. Is it a feature of EU::MM for Pugs (if its done with Perl5 )
20:19 moritz I think you call "make test" or "make smoke" from the root directory
20:19 renormalist in pugs' root dir?
20:19 moritz yes
20:19 renormalist or the module ones?
20:20 moritz there no Makefile in ext/
20:20 moritz s/there/there is/
20:20 renormalist yes, but I dont know how to generate my own.
20:20 renormalist from .PL
20:21 renormalist I get a Makefile, but
20:21 renormalist the following make doesnt work
20:21 moritz renormalist: I'd suggest to take a copy of a working module directory and just change the names ;)
20:22 moritz actually the build system is deeper magic than I want to understand ;)
20:33 rhr looks like I'd better implement .normalize etc. first before writing tests for it :) I'll throw it on my queue as I expect to get into unicode stuff fairly soon in my work on units anyway
20:35 rhr although anyone else is welcome to do it first :)  Prelude.pm already has a list of combining chars, although it should be checked for completeness
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20:37 * moritz is terrified of that unicode beast
20:37 fglock rhr: Unicode-Normalize from CPAN may help
20:38 fglock pugs uses perl5 strings, afaik
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20:44 rhr fglock: thanks, I'll look at it.
20:50 fglock home &
20:50 * renormalist needs sleep. More. Generally.
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20:56 moritz enough new test cases for me today
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21:24 svnbot6 r16519 | moritz++ | perl6.vim: added "is deep" trait and unicode normalization builtins
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21:43 moritz S05:479 says "User-defined modifiers will be possible:" - any idea how that would be specified?
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21:48 dduncan regarding testing ext/
21:49 dduncan while you have to do Pugs' perl Makefile.PL and make first
21:49 dduncan you can subsequently cd ext/<project>/ and just say make test there
21:49 dduncan I do that all the time when testing QDRDBMS changes, that is just doing make test in its own folder
21:51 dduncan if you are simply adding a new ext/ project, then you'll have to run Pugs' Makefile.PL again but otherwise its make isn't necessary for the ext/ make test to work
21:52 moritz dduncan: good to know - maybe we need a "how do create my module" FAQ entry in Hack.pod or something
21:54 dduncan similarly, you'll have to run the Makefile.PL again if you add or remove any lib/ under your project, so the generated makefile will propagate those to blib6 on make test also
21:54 dduncan or that is add/remove anything under lib/
21:54 dduncan just editing files requires do remakefile and neither does adding tests
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21:56 rhr moritz: S05:3223
21:57 penk joined #perl6
21:57 moritz *looking*
21:58 moritz rhr: thanks
22:00 rhr np, I was reading S05 earlier today :)
22:00 moritz parts of it read like poetry ;)
22:10 meppl good night
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23:20 Aankhen`` 'Tsup.
23:20 Aankhen`` </dude>
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23:30 svnbot6 r16520 | rhr++ | [unitsdat-grammar.pl] Now a module.  Add UnitsPerl grammar for e.g. $foo.:as<m/s**2>
23:30 svnbot6 r16520 | rhr++ | Misc typos and fixes.
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23:31 svnbot6 r16521 | rhr++ | unitsdat-grammar.pl is now unitsdat-grammar.pm
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23:42 Caelum how much of parrot can pugs use?
23:44 Caelum getting an error from make in pugs, "Setup: error reading ./.setup-config; run "setup configure" command?"
23:46 moritz Caelum: the parrot backend is broken atm :(
23:46 Caelum ahh
23:48 moritz Caelum: if you ask another question, somebody will offer you a commit bit ;)
23:48 moritz unless you already have one, of course ;)
23:52 Caelum hehe
23:52 Limbic_Region salutations all
23:52 Caelum hey LR :)
23:53 * Limbic_Region is just checking to see if pugs compiles with Win32/MinGW yet
23:53 Aankhen`` NOOOO DONT
23:53 Aankhen`` It compiles with MSVC++, FWIW.
23:53 Aankhen`` Though I haven't tried VS.NET 2005.
23:55 Caelum oh I see why it doesn't compile, "Setup: cannot satisfy dependency network-any" what does that mean?
23:55 moritz pugs needs a C compiler?
23:56 moritz Caelum: missing haskell library
23:56 Caelum ahh
23:56 moritz Caelum: what OS are you using?
23:56 moritz for debian that's libghc6-network-dev
23:59 Caelum just installed that, thank you.
23:59 Caelum BTW, is perl Makefile.PL PREFIX=... really broken like it says in the INSTALL?

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