Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 spinclad gaal: re copy-paste in screening xterm: try <Shift>-<Left,Middle,Right>  (haven't tried it myself with screen but it works with other mousing apps)
00:02 spinclad ?(wait with bated breath|ask the odds)
00:02 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
00:03 spinclad ?eval ?(wait with bated breath|ask the odds)
00:03 evalbot_r16586 changed their nick to evalbot_r16587
00:03 evalbot_r16587 Error: No such subroutine: &wait
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00:13 dduncan so I just made more p6l posts ... feedback welcome ... particularly there
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02:10 dmwaters {global notice} Good day all. In about an hour i'm going to begin maintenence on 3 main rotation servers that have been out of rotation for a while. These servers have been out of rotation for a while, but the impact will still be a bit rough. About 2200 users will be effected.
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02:22 svnbot6 r16590 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : relicensed QDRDBMS under the GPL version 3 or later rather than version 2 or later ... but that takes effect after June 29th 2007; meanwhile, QDRDBMS is covered by an expiring simple permissive proprietary license
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03:04 rhr ?eval my @a = [1,2],[3,4]; [~] [,] [Z] @a
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03:04 evalbot_r16590 "1 32 4"
03:05 rhr should that be "1324"?
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03:05 TimToady yes, but Z is still implemented the old-fashioned way
03:06 rhr ?eval my @a = [1,2],[3,4]; [~] [~]« [Z] @a
03:06 TimToady it's returning [1,3],[2,4] rather than 1,3,2,4
03:06 evalbot_r16590 Error: ␤Unexpected "\171"␤expecting dot, ":", "(", term postfix, operator or ","
03:07 rhr oh, it only does that in @@ context?
03:07 TimToady supposed to flatten in @ context, but doesn't yet
03:07 TimToady List of Capture is supposed to be sensitive to @ vs @@
03:08 rhr what context do reduce ops provide?
03:08 TimToady and a number of routines are redefined to return List of Capture, such as map
03:08 TimToady and gather
03:08 TimToady ordinary list context, which is @ context
03:09 rhr ok
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03:10 rhr does [,] flatten a multidim list?
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03:11 TimToady [,] is a no-op
03:11 rhr that makes sense :) I was looking at S03 and couldn't figure out why you'd use it
03:11 TimToady but yes, it probably turns 1,2;3,4 into 1,2,3,4
03:12 TimToady I'm actually still not entirely happy with the @@ sigil...
03:13 TimToady for @@: 1..3 X 'a'..'z' is pretty darn ugly
03:13 rhr yeah, that's a little strange
03:14 TimToady for clumps 1..3 X 'a'..'z' is slightly better
03:14 TimToady for some 'clumps' or other
03:14 rhr groups? lists?
03:15 TimToady I considered "each" at one point
03:15 TimToady for each gather ...
03:15 rhr is each entirely gone now?
03:15 TimToady it doesn't quite read right though
03:16 TimToady we still have the conjectural 1 < each(@foo) < 10
03:16 TimToady as an inside-out grep
03:16 TimToady but I think a readable @@ is likely more important
03:16 TimToady it would be doubly nice if it composed into a metaoperator
03:17 TimToady so you could write for 1..3 [X] 'a'..'z'
03:17 TimToady except [] is probably not going to work there.
03:17 TimToady can't use [] as a prefix operator
03:18 TimToady since it would be mistaken for an empty array
03:19 TimToady and oddly, most of the other keys on the keyboard already mean something...
03:19 rhr :)
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03:20 japhb Clearly, we need foot pedals
03:20 TimToady so for now I'm sticking with making it a funny kind of list context, and using @@: as the placeholder for that...
03:20 TimToady could make some word an alias for @@:
03:20 dduncan so I have finally put a QDRDBMS on CPAN ... but because the code isn't done yet, I made v0.0.0 a POD-only release
03:20 dduncan should be easier reading it htmlized than in pod
03:21 dduncan still, that's a step up from where I was before
03:22 dduncan does anyone know these days how often search.cpan.org is updated?
03:23 dduncan the newest thing on it now was added 2 hours ago
03:24 TimToady well, today's a Blue Moon, so I guess "once in a Blue Moon" is about how often.
03:24 japhb Cue oldies music ...
03:26 * japhb is getting sufficiently annoyed at perl5 that my favorite part of 6-on-6 may be actually being able to understand the guts of the system, thus having a chance to know how to work around it when it is being stupid.
03:28 japhb TimToady: if and when you get around to thinking about NCI ... one of those cognitive things I humbly ask you keep in mind when designing the syntax is not to make really cheap and really expensive operations look too similar.
03:29 TimToady not sure how to tell them apart, considering most of the overhead is external
03:29 * Aankhen`` doesn't really understand @@ anyway.
03:30 dduncan as far as I know, @@ is just about multi-part keys
03:30 dduncan or indexes
03:30 japhb I've had quite a bit of frustration figuring out what macros/functions in the XS API just fiddle a bit here and there and which ones decide to make an entire new copy of a huge PV
03:30 dduncan same thing in a generic sense
03:30 TimToady yes, it's more about keys than values
03:30 Aankhen`` I see.
03:30 Aankhen`` NCI == Native Call Interface?
03:31 TimToady multidimensional slices only have to go as deep as List of List, and that's what semicolon creates, and @@ unpacks
03:31 dduncan often
03:31 TimToady I keep trying to read it as Norweigan Cruise Lines...
03:32 japhb TimToady: I mean "expensive operations within the API itself".  Like what I mentioned above -- it's not always clear when you are copying data and when you are slinging pointers.  And MHO is that it comes from extremely huffmanized macro names that then don't give enough info about their actual operation.
03:32 dduncan that's NCL
03:32 japhb Especially stuff where deep differences in meaning are stored in capitalization ....
03:33 TimToady NCI would be glued by Perl 6 code, not by C code
03:33 japhb Aankhen``: yes, Native Call Interface
03:33 Aankhen`` Sorry for harping on this, but: for @@: 1..3 X 'a'..'z' # what does this do?  1..3 X 'a' .. 'z' creates three lists of a-z?
03:33 Aankhen`` japhb: Thanks.
03:33 TimToady part of the reason for having an optional type system is the ability to specify the interface from within Perl
03:33 japhb TimToady: nodnod, I just meant, when designing the API, please consider making it somewhat self-documenting, not just golfer-friendly
03:34 TimToady ?eval 1..3 X 'a' .. 'c'
03:34 evalbot_r16590 ((1, "a"), (1, "b"), (1, "c"), (2, "a"), (2, "b"), (2, "c"), (3, "a"), (3, "b"), (3, "c"))
03:34 Aankhen`` Oh, hum.
03:34 * Aankhen`` goes to read the Synopsis again.
03:35 Aankhen`` Ah.
03:35 TimToady S03:1172
03:35 Aankhen`` Yeh, found it.
03:35 Aankhen`` Hence the "Ah".
03:35 TimToady Ah
03:36 Aankhen`` -ha!
03:36 japhb Oh, and while I'm asking for things ... please can we have all NCI-related design in one S doc, as opposed to spread out over so many docs as it is now, so searching becomes a massive pain?  ;-)
03:36 Aankhen`` Wait, you want it in one doc so searching becomes a massive pain? :-(
03:36 * Aankhen`` ducks.
03:37 japhb s/so searching becomes/causing searching to be/
03:37 TimToady No, he wants the entire design of Perl 6 in one doc...
03:37 Aankhen`` That's easy, just use `cat`.
03:37 japhb TimToady: Thbbbpt.  I know you know what I mean.
03:37 japhb :-)
03:37 japhb perlxs/perlembed/perlguts/... drive me insane
03:37 TimToady not really, the whole point of NCI is to do away with XS baggage
03:38 * japhb steps back and thinks ....
03:39 japhb Hmmm, perhaps the problem is a lack of imagination on my part.
03:39 * Aankhen`` waits for the explosion.
03:39 japhb I literally can't imagine a situation in which a simple NCI design can possibly contain the complexity that exists in the real world.  Mind you, I *can* see an 80% solution.
03:40 japhb Or even a 99% solution.
03:40 japhb But what I'm talking about is the other 1%.
03:40 japhb Because of the waterbed problem
03:40 japhb Simplifying how we treat NCI is going to be great,
03:41 Aankhen`` Hmm, waterbed problem?
03:41 japhb but essentially we're pushing down hard on a big lump in the waterbed.
03:41 japhb And the other parts of the bed *will* go up.
03:41 Aankhen`` Ah.
03:41 TimToady only if it's full of water.  XS has a lot of gas...
03:41 japhb OK, I'll buy that.
03:41 Aankhen`` Does that mean it's going to smell really bad?
03:41 japhb Except ....
03:42 Aankhen`` Or maybe cause people to pass out?
03:42 japhb When you compress a gas, you increase the pressure.
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03:42 wolverian Aankhen``, yes, I think XS fits that description.
03:42 japhb So if you've got a weak point, you're going to have a blowout.
03:42 japhb Regardless,
03:42 Aankhen`` wolverian: I figured as much. ;-)
03:42 japhb getting away from the pure metaphor:
03:42 Aankhen`` Never touched XS myself.
03:43 japhb There will be things that require deep fiddling.  Like requesting zero-copy operations.
03:43 japhb (just for instance)
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03:43 japhb Hopefully these fiddly bits will have an API of their own.
03:43 japhb Let's please not make the fiddly bits as ugly as XS.
03:44 Aankhen`` Come to the daxs side, japhb.
03:44 japhb anyway, that was really all I was trying to say.  Still don't know if I was clear ....
03:45 Aankhen`` We'll find out eventually!
03:45 Aankhen`` It'll probably be too late then, but at least we'll know.
03:45 japhb LOL
03:45 Aankhen`` Have no fear.
03:45 japhb ph34r
03:46 TimToady for the sounds of the daxs side, see http://www.daxo.de/
03:46 lambdabot Title: start
03:46 Aankhen`` That's alright, you can have all the ph34r you want.
03:46 Aankhen`` Just not fear.
03:46 japhb heh
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03:48 * japhb goes back to trying to figure out how to keep his perl5 process from ballooning up an order of magnitude bigger than all of the readily apparent live variables add up to ....
03:48 Aankhen`` TimToady: What... is that?
03:49 daxim japhb, <http://search.cpan.org/dist/Devel-Leak>?
03:53 japhb "This little utility module was part of Tk until the variable renaming in perl5.005 made it clear that Tk had no business knowing this much about the perl internals."
03:54 japhb heh
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04:03 Aankhen`` japhb: LOL.
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05:14 gaal spinclad: thanks, but still orz. shift-insert works as long as I don't change screen window, I forgot to mention.
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06:07 meppl good morning
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06:33 dduncan good morning
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06:36 Tene Sure is.
06:44 thoughtpolice i suppose :p
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07:18 svnbot6 r16591 | renormalist++ | - cperl-mode: token/regex (indenting+highlighting)
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07:32 mj41 Hi, are there any disadvantages of PHP's hashs as arrays. I know that internals are different, but from users point of view? Any url?
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07:35 wolverian mj41, PHP doesn't have arrays.
07:37 wolverian imagine perl didn't have arrays.. and fear :)
07:39 wolverian dduncan, I see you uploaded QDRDBMS, yay, looks good.
07:39 dduncan yes
07:39 dduncan it took a full year too, since the last Rosetta release, which it rewrites
07:40 wolverian btw, I think s/rationales/rationale/ is more accepted
07:41 dduncan are you talking to me?
07:41 wolverian yeah, sorry.
07:41 wolverian that's in QDRDBMS.pm
07:41 dduncan I wasn't sure if you were refering to a #perl6 thread
07:41 dduncan I'll look into what you mentioned ...
07:42 dduncan so "providing rationales" should end in rationale?
07:42 dduncan sure, I can do that
07:42 wolverian ryes.
07:42 wolverian s/r//
07:44 dduncan okay, the next commit will have that fix
07:44 dduncan I also changed a similar statement in Language.pod
07:44 dduncan thank you
07:45 wolverian you're welcome
07:47 mj41 hmm, not real arrays at all? what about performance?
07:48 wolverian I don't know about the implementation, but the semantics are those of hashes
07:53 mj41 I found http://spyced.blogspot.com/​2005/06/why-php-sucks.html ... O(1) vs. O(lg n) -> O(n)
07:53 lambdabot Title: Spyced: Why PHP sucks: Jonathan's Python Blog
07:55 wolverian mj41, right. there's really no way around that.
07:56 wolverian (except, I suppose, special casing integer-keyed hashes, but that is a heuristic, and heuristics break.)
08:00 dduncan generally speaking, I find that posting something on cpan leads me to re scanning the now htmlized documentation, and I notice small mistakes that I didn't before
08:01 dduncan what you pointed out I wouldn't have noticed, but I did find a runoff sentence further below
08:01 dduncan er, a sentence without an ending
08:01 wolverian dduncan, "define the balance" is awkward. I don't know what it means. (QDRDBMS.pm)
08:02 dduncan looking ...
08:02 dduncan found it
08:03 wolverian also, s/saavy/savvy/
08:04 wolverian a bit later: "... nor have objects in separate threads try to access..." would that be better with "trying"? I can't quote a rule why it's wrong, it just sounds wrong as it is :)
08:04 dduncan its basically saying that the database API is partly in the list of Perl routines provided by QDRDBMS.pm and AST.pm, and is partly in the data you define with the ASTs
08:05 dduncan using an analogy of another DBMS ...
08:05 dduncan say SQLite for example
08:05 dduncan part of its API is the C functions you invoke, and part of its API is expressed in the SQL strings you pass in
08:05 wolverian right. I get it now
08:06 dduncan in this case, my SQL replacement is the main api, and the perl classes provide the balance
08:06 dduncan okay
08:06 wolverian I think it is more opaque because that's the first time you speak about ::AST
08:06 dduncan looking up savvy
08:06 wolverian but I'm just nitpicking, really
08:08 dduncan savvy is now fixed
08:08 dduncan that's fine ... its good to know if something even initially confuses someone
08:09 dduncan of course, like with reporting bugs, it can also help if an alternative is suggested
08:09 dduncan for now I won't change it
08:09 dduncan pending such a suggestion
08:10 dduncan fyi, if you're looking through all the files, I suggest visiting in this order: README, QDRDBMS.pm, AST.pm, Language.pod, SeeAlso.pod, whatever
08:10 dduncan Language is the longest
08:13 wolverian s,prominant,prominent,
08:13 wolverian (same file)
08:15 wolverian s,langugaes,languages, in Language.pod
08:16 Aankhen`` s,wolverian,lolcat,
08:16 Aankhen`` Har har.
08:16 Aankhen`` I kill me.
08:16 wolverian I has speeling aids!
08:17 Aankhen`` ROTFL.
08:17 Aankhen`` I CAN HAZ :STDIO PLZ
08:17 wolverian the : is brilliant
08:17 Aankhen`` Oh, wait.  s/PLZ/?/
08:17 Aankhen`` And s/ \?/?/
08:18 thoughtpolice KTHXBYE
08:18 Aankhen`` lolcode++
08:21 thoughtpolice definately
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08:22 wolverian definitely
08:22 thoughtpolice a lolcode implementation would be fun to write :)
08:22 Aankhen`` Heh.
08:22 gaal there are a few already
08:22 gaal I think there's one in python on lolcode.com
08:23 thoughtpolice yeah
08:23 thoughtpolice there're several
08:23 thoughtpolice .net, python, perl, there's a BNF
08:23 Aankhen`` Perl 6: Because we need a platform to build language interpreters upon. =)
08:23 dduncan you know, I suppose if I actually ran a spell-checker on my docs it would catch some things
08:23 thoughtpolice one guy is actually working on getting it to run on the JVM
08:23 thoughtpolice which would be pretty awesome imo
08:23 Aankhen`` LMAO, that would be funny.
08:23 dduncan but I usually count on having good spelling in my brain, or if I'm not sure about something, i google it at time of writing
08:23 rgs AWSUM THX <- at least, a polite language
08:24 Aankhen`` From Java to lolcode.
08:24 thoughtpolice :)
08:24 thoughtpolice if lolcode's turing complete: why not?!
08:24 Tene Would be nice to have a "Build your own language interpreter on Perl 6!" document.
08:25 thoughtpolice hah.
08:25 Aankhen`` Since it looks like eric256 has abandoned the BASIC implementation, I was thinking of working on it.
08:25 thoughtpolice just take the haskell route; make it a DSL with a LOLmonad like dons showed :)
08:26 gaal yeah
08:30 thoughtpolice I would probably try to write an implementation in perl 6 or haskell, but I probably would suck at writing a grammar or somesuch. :/ I could always have fun with Parsec, though.
08:36 Aankhen`` <thoughtpolice> just take the haskell route; make it a DSL with a LOLmonad like dons showed :) # wha?
08:37 Aankhen`` I suck at writing grammars too, and I don't even know BASIC.  I figure I'll learn as I go along. :-)
08:37 thoughtpolice :)
08:37 thoughtpolice maybe I should try this as a little haskell side project. :)
08:38 gaal looks like it has a pretty straightforward ast
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09:04 dduncan so I'm now running a spell-checker
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09:42 gaal nothingmuch: ping
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11:10 svnbot6 r16592 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : various spelling and other small fixes in 7 pod files
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11:22 DrSlump hiho
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11:37 DrSlump is there a "push" operator? like @a=qw/a b c/; @b=qw/d e f/; @a ,= @b wich would be @a = (@a, @b) so @a =  'a', 'b', 'c', 'd', 'e', 'f'???
11:38 DrSlump or the same as push @a, @b
11:39 moritz DrSlump: I think you can use a <== notation or something
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11:39 moritz DrSlump: but I'm not sure about it
11:40 DrSlump moritz: oh ok, i'm having a look about it in the archives
11:42 DrSlump wasnt it <~?
11:43 moritz S03:1418
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11:43 moritz "Feed operators"
11:43 moritz <<== is the appending form unless I'm mistaken here
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11:45 DrSlump well, looking at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S03.html , it looks like it for me too
11:45 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 3: Perl 6 Operators - perl6:
11:51 renormalist do feed operators work in Pugs yet? Last time I checked it seemed not. 2 weeks ago
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12:54 moritz ?eval my @a = <a b>; @a <<== <c d>
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12:54 evalbot_r16592 Error: ␤Unexpected "<<=="␤expecting operator
12:55 moritz ?eval my @a <== <a b>
12:56 * moritz pokes evalbot_r16592
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13:20 svnbot6 r16593 | moritz++ | implemented problem97.t
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14:28 thoughtpolice mornin'
14:29 moritz hi thoughtpolice ;)
14:29 moritz nearly tea time ;)
14:30 thoughtpolice :)
14:30 thoughtpolice here it's only 9:30am
14:31 thoughtpolice and I haven't slept since like, yesterday at 5:00pm or so. so if for some reason during today I'm talking or something and I suddenly stop I probably walked off to do something and fell asleep without meaning to.
14:32 moritz ;-)
14:34 thoughtpolice it's happened before. pretty annoying to be honest.
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15:09 svnbot6 r16594 | daxim++ | implemented problem46.t
15:33 TimToady ?eval ?eval ?eval "6"
15:34 moritz is there a canonical way how a true value stringifies? in ~?$expression for example
15:35 moritz ?eval ~?5
15:35 moritz TimToady: did you read the perlmonks thread on linguistic influences on perl?
15:35 TimToady I think evalbot is still trying to figure out what my @a <== <a b>
15:35 TimToady means
15:36 moritz ;)
15:36 moritz http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=618673 that is
15:36 TimToady I wonder if it parsed it as <= =<a b>
15:36 lambdabot Title: The Germanic language form
15:37 TimToady no, I usually bl before pm
15:38 moritz bl?
15:39 TimToady backlog
15:39 moritz ok
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16:09 svnbot6 r16595 | andara++ | [runpugs] - Settings now go in $HOME/.webtermrc (using Config::General).
16:09 svnbot6 r16595 | andara++ |     Look at webtermrc for example settings.
16:09 svnbot6 r16595 | andara++ |   - Prompt detection now more robust.
16:09 svnbot6 r16595 | andara++ |   - Easier back-end testing with command-line REPLs (see /bin).
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16:21 audreyt_ changed their nick to audreyt
16:21 svnbot6 r16596 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Internals: Massive cleanup of the import/re-export directives
16:21 svnbot6 r16596 | audreyt++ |   for better readability/maintainability; no semantic changes.
16:21 svnbot6 r16597 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim: More concise, warning-free and point-free definition of perlReplicate.
16:21 svnbot6 r16598 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.hs: Restructure a series of boolean tests to be more lazy
16:27 weinigLap joined #perl6
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16:37 japhb audreyt: Have you done the O(1) pad and MO merges yet?  Or are they still pending?
16:40 zamolxes joined #perl6
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16:46 TimToady O(1) pad is I think in, MO is not
16:46 TimToady if not, O(1) is close
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17:03 blaze-x_ changed their nick to blaze-x
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17:41 Psyche^ changed their nick to Patterner
17:47 gaal > concat $ replicate 5 " <3 audreyt! }:)"
17:47 lambdabot " <3 audreyt! }:) <3 audreyt! }:) <3 audreyt! }:) <3 audreyt! }:) <3 audreyt...
17:51 daxim cute
17:56 gaal hee, r16596 is like renaming the project to XModule
17:57 gaal re: perlReplicate, too bad Integer hasn't got infinity
17:58 gaal then we could easily do what Chas was looking at
17:58 gaal w/o a cast try to VNum
18:01 gaal ugh, isn't there monadic golf to be played for the "<- and return if ok" pattern in 16598?
18:02 gaal (can't think of any, but the pattern looks ugly now)
18:02 iblechbot joined #perl6
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18:14 lumi Wow, didn't know you could do that (as X)
18:17 vel joined #perl6
18:17 svnbot6 r16599 | fglock++ | kp6-Perl6-roadmap.txt - added "development tracks"
18:20 gaal for some reason, this kills the build on my snapshot 6.7 :( (doesn't like the # in unsafeCoerce#)
18:20 gaal trying to work around
18:24 gaal the clever thing isn't the as X, it's the overlap in X :)
18:27 hatsuseno changed their nick to crashmatrix
18:27 moritz_ changed their nick to moritz
18:32 renormalist joined #perl6
18:33 lumi That's what I meant, I didn't know you could do the overlap
18:33 crashmatrix changed their nick to hatsuseno
18:33 lumi But I guess it's only natural, normally the overlap is on epsilon
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18:35 svnbot6 r16600 | gaal++ | * Unbreak the build
18:35 moritz gaal: what a cool commit message ;-)
18:36 lumi gaal: I have a monadic golf for that pattern, but it's actually one line longer :P
18:36 lumi Well, it's 4 lines of setup, and then a punchline
18:36 gaal CPS? :-p
18:37 lumi Where do we nopaste nowadays?
18:37 gaal moritz: it's a pretty common one if you check the logs :)
18:37 lumi nopaste?
18:37 lumi Er
18:37 lumi @paste
18:37 gaal perlbot nopaste
18:37 lambdabot Haskell pastebin: http://hpaste.org/new
18:37 perlbot Paste your code at http://sial.org/pbot/perl and #perl will be able to view it
18:37 lambdabot Title: sial.org Pastebot - pasteling
18:37 lumi hpaste is down
18:38 pasteling "lumi" at 192.115.131.248 pasted "Monadic pseudogolf" (7 lines, 246B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25306
18:38 moritz gaal: nevertheless it's cool ;)
18:38 renormalist gaal: does the commit msg mean I can do make install again?
18:38 lumi renormalist: The build, not the install...
18:38 gaal it means you can make again. :-)
18:39 lumi Err, it's actually borkened I think, but you get the gist
18:40 lumi The 'a x' should be just 'a'
18:40 gaal lumi: needa Just
18:40 lumi Right, and tryWith should return (b, Just $ f x)
18:41 gaal uh, the /topic is FUDful. make install does need fixing, but that means someone should actually fix it.
18:42 gaal you don't Just the result of the last application
18:42 topic for #perl6 is:
18:43 lumi Better?
18:43 gaal lumi++
18:43 moritz lumi++ # indeed!
18:43 gaal what happened to everything else that used to be on the topic, anyway?
18:43 gaal like, paste, moose, etc.
18:43 lumi gaal: Which last application?
18:44 gaal findHelper xs is not Justified
18:45 lumi gaal: That's recursion, I don't think it wants a Just?
18:46 gaal yes, what I'm saying
18:46 lumi I don't follow
18:46 moritz gaal: Juerd++ swept the topic away when he announced that feather was up again ;)
18:47 moritz or so I think I recall
18:47 gaal lumi: ok, sorry, my mind has melted in the last heat wave and hasn't really reformed correctly
18:47 gaal off for a film &
18:48 SubStack joined #perl6
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18:49 lumi I'm not sure if it works, would depend on the associativity of orElse
18:52 gaal (also prolly better find another name since orElse is an stm thing. re&)
18:52 renormalist does anyone know what's wrong with the make install or can describe it a bit?
18:52 renormalist Is there a chance to fix it or do we need special skills? Which ones?
18:52 rindolf Hi all.
18:53 rindolf Hi gaal
18:53 isaacd joined #perl6
18:53 rindolf gaal: can you get a testimonial from the previous workplace of yours (the one with the net monitoring) about Perl?
18:54 Tene rindolf: I'm curious about what you're asking for and why.
18:55 rindolf Tene: I'm looking for short Perl testimonials.
18:55 rindolf Tene: preferably with longer ones.
18:55 offby1 I testify: perl is kewl
18:55 offby1 can't beat that for shortness
18:56 Tene rindolf: what for?
18:57 rindolf Tene: for http://perl-begin.org/
18:57 lumi offby1: Perl rocks!
18:57 lambdabot Title: Perl Beginners' Site
18:57 rindolf Every good technology site should have testimonials.
18:58 rindolf Tene: have you read http://www.sparkthis.com/20​06/02/slides_the_hack.html ?
18:58 lambdabot Title: Spark This: Slides: The Hacker's Guide to Marketing
18:58 Tene nope
18:58 offby1 lumi: OK, OK; you win
18:58 lumi gaal: How about `failingThat` ?
18:59 lumi Oh, he's gone
18:59 rindolf Tene: you should - it's not very long.
19:00 Tene I will once I get internet access again. :)
19:01 moritz Tene: I want to be able to chat in IRC without internet access too ;)
19:02 Tene using my cellphone. incompetent ISP at the office.
19:02 lumi What's another way of saying "or" or "or else"?
19:02 rindolf Tene: oh.
19:02 rindolf Tene: firewall?
19:02 rindolf lumi: otherwise?
19:02 rindolf lumi: nor?
19:02 lumi Yes, but that mean "true" in Haskell
19:02 moritz aye
19:02 moritz Tene: did't think of that, I don't have a cellphone ;)
19:02 rindolf Hi moritz
19:02 rindolf moritz: what's up?
19:02 moritz hi rindolf ;)
19:02 Tene rindolf: net access completely down. they screwed up our routing and brainwiped their equipment here.
19:03 lumi Eh, maybe I can steal otherwise for a coupla lines
19:03 moritz rindolf: hacked my first two lines of pugs haskell code the other day, and I'm still proud of it ;)
19:03 rindolf moritz: OK.
19:03 rindolf moritz: the Pugs Haskell code scares me.
19:03 rindolf I once tried to look for something there.
19:03 rindolf expert Haskell is pretty scary.
19:04 rindolf I like to use recursion and declaration a lot in my Haskell.
19:04 rindolf But people tend to use the built-ins.
19:04 moritz rindolf: I'm far form understanding that... I just fixed one builtin
19:04 rindolf moritz: Haskell built-ins.
19:04 rindolf moritz: like zip, etc.
19:04 rindolf There are tons of htem.
19:05 rindolf You can find them on zvon.org
19:05 moritz rindolf: funny enough I fixed p6's zip ;)
19:05 Tene moritz: specifically, cellphone+ssh+screen
19:06 rindolf moritz: I'm beginning to think I'm psychic.
19:06 rindolf moritz: I also called my friend just when he was thinking about me.
19:06 rindolf moritz: to help someone on #perl with an Oracle problem.
19:06 rindolf Who wrote god-damn awful Perl code.
19:07 pasteling "lumi" at 192.115.131.248 pasted "Latest attempt -- tell me if this can be improved (or if it just sucks)" (7 lines, 336B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25307
19:07 lumi rindolf: Wait, did your friend write awful Perl code, or did the someone, or did Oracle?
19:08 lumi Or the problem
19:08 moritz perl code stored in an oracle db?
19:08 rindolf lumi: no it was the one with the problem.
19:08 lumi Running a wacky ecore, possibly
19:09 rindolf lumi: my friend is kind-of still experienced, but he's very intelligent and bright.
19:09 rindolf s/experienced/in\0/
19:11 svnbot6 r16601 | fglock++ | kp6-Perl6-roadmap.txt - high level steps
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19:28 lumi @tell gaal Circularity problem with Meta.List :/ Meta.Class defines an instance for Boxable a => Boxable [a], and also needs it locally.
19:28 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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19:29 svnbot6 r16602 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Monads: Add MonadIO instance to the MaybeT monad.
19:29 svnbot6 r16602 | audreyt++ |   Also simplify the `mplus` operation so the second action
19:29 svnbot6 r16602 | audreyt++ |   is only run when the first operation returns Nothing.
19:29 svnbot6 r16602 | audreyt++ |   (It used to run both and then needlessly discards the second.)
19:29 svnbot6 r16603 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.hs: Solve the monadic guard riddle with MaybeT.
19:30 lumi Aw
19:36 lumi It's certainly a more elegant solution
19:36 svnbot6 r16604 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.hs: Further solve the monadic guard riddle by avoiding
19:36 svnbot6 r16604 | audreyt++ |   an unneccessary boolean-test step.
19:43 svnbot6 r16605 | audreyt++ | * unobe++ changed %*CONFIG<perl5path> into %*CONFIG<perl5_path>,
19:43 svnbot6 r16605 | audreyt++ |   so we need to chase that in order for pugs -CPerl5 etc to work.
19:46 [particle] joined #perl6
19:47 rindolf audreyt: here?
19:47 rindolf TimToady: ping.
19:48 TimToady pong
19:49 TimToady or pung, if you prefer mah jong
19:51 moritz .oO( "no pung intended" )Oo.
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20:18 fglock english question - is pugs "Perl6-in-Haskell" or "Perl6-on-Haskell"?
20:20 PerlJam fglock: it's haskell wearing a perl6 cloak
20:32 kolibrie fglock: Perl6-(written-)in-Haskell or Perl6-(running-)on-Haskell
20:34 kolibrie I would go for the written/implemented in Haskell name
20:35 moritz yes, that's better because if it has a different backend, it's not "on haskell" any more - in some ways
20:35 fglock so "6-in-6" is the compiler, and "6-on-6" is the runtime?
20:35 kolibrie sounds about right
20:36 moritz 6-$foo-6 ;)
20:36 moritz you could always use junctions
20:37 moritz 6-any<in on>-6 ;)
20:40 lumi 6-{<in on>any>-6
20:40 lumi Erk
20:40 lumi 6-{<in on>.any}-6
20:41 moritz <in on>.pick
20:41 fglock 6..*
20:41 PerlJam pick 6?
20:42 moritz <6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6>.pick
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21:17 svnbot6 r16606 | lwall++ | [STD.pm] Allow $obj.@candidates form.
21:17 moritz @karma lwall
21:17 lambdabot lwall has a karma of 82
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21:18 TimToady that guy's head is getting too big for his britches...er, wait...
21:19 PerlJam What's his head doing in his britches to begin with?!?!?
21:19 diakopter reminds me of something my grandmother often said - 'my eyes were too big for my stomach.'
21:20 moritz I'd think two eyes fit easily into a stomach ;)
21:20 moritz diakopter: we have that saying in German as well
21:20 diakopter (on her failure to eat her apportioned selections from Luby's buffet)
21:22 lumi We have a similar expression
21:24 penk joined #perl6
21:39 japhb moritz: For the topic change right after http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl​?channel=perl6;date=2007-06-01#id_l496 , the topic doesn't actually appear.  And this time I checked View Source to make sure it actually was missing from the HTML.  ;-)
21:39 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-01, http://tinyurl.com/yv284k
21:39 Corion joined #perl6
21:40 moritz japhb: you're right... investigating...
21:40 Corion left #perl6
21:41 prism joined #perl6
21:42 Aankhen`` for 1 .. 10 -> $x { our &::("foo" . $x) := regex { $x } }; # is this a valid way to create a bunch of regexes dynamically?  Will it close over $x correctly?
21:44 ilbot_test joined #perl6
21:44 TimToady well, you need ~ rather than .
21:44 Aankhen`` Er, yes, sorry.
21:44 Aankhen`` Stupid brain is still half stuck in P5.
21:44 TimToady other than that I don't see why it shouldn't work
21:44 Aankhen`` Kewl.
21:45 IllvilJa joined #perl6
21:45 topic for #perl6 is:
21:45 Aankhen`` And since grammars can export rules, IIRC, is this also valid: for 1 .. 10 -> $x { our &::("foo" . $x) is export(:DEFAULT) := regex { $x } };
21:45 Aankhen`` Ugh, again with a s/ \. / ~ /
21:46 ilbot_test joined #perl6
21:51 ilbot_test joined #perl6
21:53 svnbot6 r16607 | moritz++ | [irclog] now topic changes should be reported correctly, japhb++
21:53 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org/ | Brave souls needed to fix 'make Install'! Non-brave souls should avoid it for now
21:56 japhb Thx, moritz++
22:01 weinigLap joined #perl6
22:13 renormalist does the smart-match ~~ work for every type of arguments or are there argument of any kind that are forbidden to match with ~~ ?
22:14 dmitriy joined #perl6
22:16 PerlJam renormalist: nothing is forbidden in perl : )
22:16 PerlJam er, :-)
22:17 renormalist PerlJam: I know. I just have a look over an article and don't whether it's ok to say smartmatch works for every argument.
22:17 renormalist s/don't/don't know/
22:17 japhb Well, it should "work", but that doesn't mean it will actually be "smart" and DWYM.
22:17 moritz ?eval class A {} class B {} A.new ~~ B.new
22:18 PerlJam renormalist: the last section of S05 is entitled "Matching against non-strings" and says, in part, "Anything that can be tied to a string can be matched against a regex."
22:20 PerlJam renormalist: and S03 has big table that tells you how smart matching works among the various standard things
22:20 PerlJam (in a section entitled "Smart matching" oddly enough)
22:21 PerlJam I'd be more definitive, but the information contained in the Synopses has changed since I last read them  :)
22:23 renormalist I see. So I will use the term "practically everything"     (not sure whether "practically" is used the same way as it is in german)
22:24 renormalist Although "practically everything" can practically mean everything. :-)
22:24 moritz renormalist: "quasi" is a nice word ;)
22:24 moritz renormalist: in both english and german ;)
22:24 renormalist moritz: naaaaaaja :-)
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23:48 renormalist TimToady: What is the official state of the STD grammar. Is "nearly complete" a correct term in an article?   I want to correct the term "a large part of Perl6 is already defined...". That sounds too lame IMHO.
23:49 renormalist the "large part" term is from someone else, not me :-)
23:50 renormalist (damn, did I miss the timezone shift again?)
23:51 mr_ank joined #perl6
23:52 japhb renormalist: It is just before 5 PM in this timezone (US west coast)
23:55 [particle] renormalist: as timtoady has said before, "we're done with the first 80%, and well into the second 80%"
23:57 renormalist [particle]: then I leave it "a large part" :-)

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