Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:48 Limbic_Region salutations all
01:53 agentzh joined #perl6
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01:58 TimToady howdy!
01:59 agentzh morning, TimToady :)
01:59 TimToady the only problem with morning is that it comes at such an inconvenient time of the day...
02:00 TimToady except when it's an inconvenient place in the world...
02:01 REPLeffect joined #perl6
02:01 * agentzh gets confused by TimToady's inconvenience.
02:02 Caelum does vim have a syntax file for perl6?
02:02 * TimToady gets inconvenienced by agentzh's confusion  :)
02:02 TimToady Caelum: yes
02:02 agentzh Caelum: i believe there is one in the pugs repos :)
02:03 TimToady see util/perl6.vim
02:03 Caelum ahh cool :)
02:03 Caelum what extension should perl6 files end with?
02:04 agentzh .pl is confusing but...
02:04 agentzh fglock++ chooses .p6 though.
02:06 agentzh people, i'm translating the Synopses to Chinese. where should i put the translated version in the pugs tree?
02:06 agentzh docs/zh-cn/syn/?
02:06 agentzh docs/Perl6/Spec/zh-cn?
02:08 Limbic_Region oh, my smoke time after the pad refactor became stabalized is as fast or faster as before - circa 1/2 hour
02:09 Limbic_Region apparently it slowed down considerably right after the refactor
02:09 agentzh recent auto-smoke on feather ususally take s
02:09 agentzh 200+ min
02:10 weinigLap joined #perl6
02:10 * Limbic_Region doesn't know if that is considered faster, slower, or normal
02:11 agentzh much much slower
02:11 agentzh or maybe that's because the auto-smoke now has a nice number of 10 or even 15 :)
02:12 Limbic_Region dunno, I am smoking again now
02:12 agentzh anyway, it completes without problem everyday.
02:13 agentzh i was thinking a realclean might be necessary for the pad refactoring stuff, but it seems everything just works without doing that manually on feather. :)
02:14 * agentzh has been suffering from DNS problems lately :(
02:18 agentzh TimToady: are you also running some kind of autosmoking on your linux and windows machines?
02:18 agentzh i can see your smoke reports almost everyday (as well as the feather autosmokes', of course :))
02:18 svnbot6 r16608 | lwall++ | [STD.pm] feeble attempt to make QLang role's bootstrap virtualizable
02:18 svnbot6 r16608 | lwall++ | [STD.pm] missing <?ws> in declarator pseudoassignment
02:18 Caelum how do you set @*INC for using pugs from the source tree?
02:19 agentzh -I ?
02:19 * agentzh is not really here.
02:20 TimToady no, I just run smokes when I can't think of anything better to do, which is usually... :)
02:20 agentzh lol
02:21 Caelum agentzh: err, -I what?
02:21 agentzh pugs -Iblib6/lib blah.pl
02:21 Caelum or do I really have to do a make install
02:21 agentzh no, please don't
02:22 Caelum hehe
02:22 agentzh make install destroyed my ubuntu's perl :(
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02:22 agentzh but maybe it has been fixed.
02:22 Caelum segmentation fault woo hoo
02:22 Caelum not that I've heard
02:22 agentzh in case you have the tuits to "confirm"
02:24 * agentzh is reading simpy's docs.
02:24 dduncan perl files should always end in .pm/.pl/.t/whatever, the same as perl 5
02:24 dduncan using .p6 et al was ruled out a long time ago as being good
02:24 dduncan rather, you put use p6-alpha in the file itself rather than use 5
02:25 dduncan agentzh
02:25 thoughtpolice woot. logging is now implemented in my little server. :)
02:26 dduncan toow
02:26 agentzh dduncan: *nod*
02:26 thoughtpolice 'twas somewhat annoying to code. but i got to have fun with stateT :)
02:26 dduncan so no ++ for anyone that does .p6
02:26 TimToady Caelum: do you have a commit bit?
02:26 Caelum TimToady: nope
02:27 TimToady if you msg me your email, I will attempt to send one
02:27 Caelum that means I'll actually have to start working on something :)
02:29 TimToady thinking about working on something is also considered working on something around here. :)
02:29 Limbic_Region TimToady is far to kind
02:30 TimToady and feather is far too slow...
02:30 Limbic_Region audreyt sends you the commitbit first and suggests contributing later (hence guilting you into contributing)
02:31 TimToady darn, my firefox crashed, have to start over...
02:32 * Limbic_Region idly wonders if the plugin(s) to restore tabs after accidental closure and what not work when firefox itself crashes
02:33 Caelum kind of
02:33 araujo TimToady, don't worry, it happens to more people :-)
02:33 TimToady Caelum: while I'm waiting for commitbit again, what would you like for a project nick?  Caelum?
02:34 thoughtpolice links ftw!
02:35 Caelum TimToady: yes please :)
02:35 Limbic_Region I am sure I have asked this before but do rules have natural ways of handling precedence and associativity or does one have to resort to wizardry like manual stratification and left-recursion elimination?
02:36 agentzh could someone paste the IP address of svn.openfoundry.org and svn.pugscode.org for me? my DNS server is naughty :(
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02:36 Teratogen is ( . )( . ) valid Perl 6?
02:37 TimToady only in a regex
02:37 Teratogen bummer
02:38 TimToady ...almost there...
02:39 TimToady ...almost there...
02:39 araujo Teratogen, we have it on Haskell though
02:39 araujo it is the famous ... boob operator
02:39 araujo :-)
02:43 TimToady commitbit sent, finally!
02:44 TimToady Caelum: it is customary to add your name to AUTHORS as your first commit to make sure everything is in working order
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02:51 PerlJam Limbic_Region: Rules use the same mechanisms as subroutines for associativity, precedence, fixity, etc.
02:51 PerlJam AFAIK anyway
02:52 PerlJam Since regex are just special forms of subroutines.
02:52 PerlJam See http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S06.html#Subroutine_traits
02:53 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 6: Subroutines - perl6:, http://tinyurl.com/pfpph
02:54 Caelum agentzh: 140.109.17.109 and 193.200.132.135
02:54 agentzh Caelum: thanks!
02:59 Aankhen`` * Limbic_Region idly wonders if the plugin(s) to restore tabs after accidental closure and what not work when firefox itself crashes # yes, they do, in case you're still wondering. :-)
02:59 Aankhen`` The builtin session restore featur
02:59 Aankhen`` Er.
02:59 Aankhen`` The builtin session restore feature, on the other hand, doesn't work too well in case of crashes.
02:59 Aankhen`` Or at least that was my experience.
03:02 Aankhen`` Okay, I think it's time to run a smoke.
03:02 * Aankhen`` fiddles with the VM's settings to give it more memory and CPU.
03:02 Caelum TimToady: got it, thank you!
03:04 Aankhen`` What the...?  My VM is suddenly refusing to start X.
03:06 Teratogen pwned!
03:06 Aankhen`` :'-(
03:07 * Aankhen`` is trying to install VMWare Tools.
03:07 Aankhen`` Apparently the X server couldn't find the "vmouse" module or something liket hat.
03:07 Aankhen`` That, even.
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03:18 * Caelum reads docs/
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03:28 Aankhen`` Yay, that fixed it.
03:32 Limbic_Region PerlJam I am not sure I understand how your comment applies to my question
03:32 Limbic_Region I am likely being a dolt
03:34 Limbic_Region wait - I see how that would apply to precedence - is tighter/looser/equiv
03:35 Limbic_Region still looking to see how one would change associativity
03:35 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
03:35 Limbic_Region and there it is
03:35 Limbic_Region is assoc
03:35 Limbic_Region thanks PerlJam
03:35 Caelum what does the : in  $fh: "Hi!"; do?
03:36 Caelum err, say $fh: "Hi!";
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03:42 Aankhen`` Okay, smoke's on its way, and I'm off.
03:47 Caelum so blah($foo: "bar") is the same as $foo.blah("bar") ?
03:48 TimToady yes
03:48 TimToady or blah $foo: "bar"
03:49 TimToady the : rescues the indirect object syntax from ambiguity
03:50 TimToady ?eval say $*OUT: "Hi!"
03:50 Caelum cool! :)
03:50 TimToady hmm, wonder if evalbot is still down...
03:52 TimToady ?eval say $*OUT: "Hi!"
03:54 TimToady ?eval 42
03:54 offby1 "Forty-Two"!
03:54 * offby1 steps in
04:08 TimToady have restarted evalbot, appears to be reconfiguring pugs and rebuilding
04:08 TimToady gonna be a while--this is feather...
04:11 Caelum what's the difference between $a = (1,2); and $a = [1,2]; ?
04:13 TimToady none, effective, since a list in scalar context promotes to array
04:13 TimToady *effectively
04:13 Caelum cool
04:22 Caelum the Capture.pod says you have to do $x = \@a; $$x.push("foo"); but $x.push("foo") works fine as well
04:24 TimToady well, use on the left of . is scalar, so I'm not surprised that the extra $ is redundant
04:25 TimToady s/use/context/
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04:26 TimToady there we go
04:26 TimToady ?eval 42
04:26 evalbot_r16608 42
04:26 TimToady ?eval say $*OUT: "Hi!"
04:26 evalbot_r16608 OUTPUT[Hi!␤] Bool::True
04:27 TimToady mind, it's logging everything to my terminal, so I don't know what it'll do when I log off feather...shoulda redirected to a file, I guess...
04:28 offby1 or use screen!
04:28 offby1 one o' my all-time favorite tools.
04:28 Aankhen`` 30m 52s for a smoke this time.
04:29 TimToady probably find out the slowness of feather is caused by some ancient screen treasuring up a terabyte or so of output...
04:29 Aankhen`` I think it was a few minutes more last time, which would have been about two days ago.
04:33 gugod_ changed the nick to gugod
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04:38 svnbot6 r16609 | lwall++ | [t/junction/misc_junctions.t] parsefail
04:39 Caelum ?eval $x = (1,2,3); $x.push(4); $x
04:39 evalbot_r16608 [1, 2, 3, 4]
04:40 Caelum hmm, according to Capture.pod that's supposed to fail
04:40 PerlJam why?
04:40 Caelum it says: $x.push(0); # FAIL: cannot find method: List.push
04:41 PerlJam Perhaps Capture.pod needs updating
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04:54 TimToady ?eval $x := (1,2,3); $x.push(4); $x
04:54 evalbot_r16608 Error: Bind to undeclared variable: $x
04:54 TimToady ?eval my $x := (1,2,3); $x.push(4); $x
04:54 evalbot_r16608 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
04:55 TimToady ?eval my $x := \(1,2,3); $x.push(4); $x
04:55 evalbot_r16608 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
04:55 TimToady ?eval my $x = \(1,2,3); $x.push(4); $x
04:55 evalbot_r16608 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
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06:36 gaal hee, it's a loophoole in the somewhat kludgy non-strict that you need to declare 'my' vars for bind in evalbot :)
06:36 lambdabot gaal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:37 gaal "circularity problem in worm oroborous"
06:40 gaal whee the MaybeT solution was precisely what I was hoping for
06:41 gaal I wonder if there's a crazy monad in which bind is wired to its own mplus, so you can just write these actions one after another
06:42 gaal (not that it would be suvh a good idea to golf that way in this case)
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07:25 ahmadz_ hi
07:25 ahmadz_ is pugs safe mode broken?
07:25 ahmadz_ PUGS_SAFEMODE=1 pugs -e 'print 42'
07:26 ahmadz_ pugs: user error (**** **** Can't modify constant item: VUndef at prelude line 802, col 9-46 )
07:27 ahmadz_ without PUGS_SAFEMODE it works
07:27 ahmadz_ ?eval print 42
07:27 evalbot_r16608 changed the nick to evalbot_r16609
07:27 evalbot_r16609 OUTPUT[42] Bool::True
07:27 gaal !
07:28 gaal ahmadz_: worksforme with a pugs from last night
07:28 ahmadz_ what's ur pugs svn version?
07:28 Aankhen`` WFM too with a Pugs from a few hours ago.
07:29 Aankhen`` r16608 here.
07:29 gaal and prelude:802 is a comment...
07:29 Aankhen`` Heh.
07:29 ahmadz_ strange 16609 here...
07:29 Aankhen`` Did you svn up in the middle of the build or something like that, by any chance?
07:29 gaal 16598, here.
07:30 ahmadz_ try it from another working directory... like ~
07:30 ahmadz_ somehow it needs a file in pugs directory
07:30 gaal ah, that means you have a bad compiled prelude in your @*INC
07:31 gaal do locate Prelude.pm.yml
07:31 gaal and nuke the bad one
07:31 ahmadz_ will do... and re-make right?
07:31 gaal you once did make install, didn't you?
07:31 ahmadz_ nop...
07:31 ahmadz_ never
07:32 gaal oh, hey, right: reproduced here.
07:32 gaal this is interesting. let me strace a bit and find
07:32 gaal ESCdd this means that the source-inlined prelude is bad. fixing
07:33 ahmadz_ cool, ty
07:33 ahmadz_ runpugs termserv.pl does a sanity check on pugs before starting...
07:34 ahmadz_ that's why i need safe mode
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07:38 Aankh|Clone changed the nick to Aankhen``
07:39 gaal for now, copy over Prelude.pm.yml to where it can see it
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07:39 gaal hope to have a fix for you soon
07:40 ahmadz_ cool... im clean building it just in case.
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08:23 andara hi ahmadz_
08:29 andara @tell ahmadz_ /home/andara/pugs-dev/ always has the latest snapshot that works with PUGS_SAFEMODE=1. Run as /home/andara/pugs-dev/pugs -I/home/andara/pugs-dev/blib6/lib
08:29 lambdabot Consider it noted.
08:36 gaal okay. the dying is not caused by bad Prelude.pm->Prelude.hs mangling, but rather by writing to %*INC at the end of the prelude load.
08:37 gaal the easy fix is to declare %*INC safe, but I don't want to do that.
08:37 gaal I don't understand yet why a preludePC does not trigger this problem.
08:37 gaal apparently its merging of envs circumvents undeclared symbols
08:38 gaal (I don't want to declare %*INC safe because this:
08:38 gaal ?eval %*INC
08:38 evalbot_r16609 \undef
08:38 gaal should not leak information about the server.)
08:39 gaal I suppose another makeshift would to to modify the INC assignment to be conditional on INC's being defined
08:39 gaal that's kinda icky though
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08:44 svnbot6 r16610 | gaal++ | * factor out a function for fresh envDebug maps
08:50 gaal hm bad choice to put that in P.A.I
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10:25 riffraff hi
10:26 moritz hi riffraff ;)
10:28 ahmadz hi moritz, riffraff ;-)
10:28 moritz helo ahmadz ;)
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10:39 riffraff jut out of curiosity: is there a chance that ghc6.7 will use gcc4 as the backend?
10:46 gaal usually ghc doesn't compile via c at all
10:48 riffraff I thought it used the gcc cpu-specific backends (I think they are called frontends in gcc, but anyway "the thing that spit out binary")
10:49 moritz ghc6 debian package depends on gcc
10:50 gaal you can compile -fvia-c, but normally you don't
10:50 moritz ok
10:50 gaal (afaik)
10:50 riffraff I see
10:51 gaal it goes through C--, usually. but better ask on #haskell
10:57 riffraff ah, the joy of compiling pugs again from zero on an old cpu
10:59 riffraff ah, some makefile guru wants an hint? Makefile.PL should check for the network-any dependency (libghc6-network-dev package on ubuntu). I would add it but I have no clue on how to do that
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11:07 gaal riffraff: please see the treatment for mtl and abstract away
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11:08 gaal white you're at it, the deiban names are the same, so please change the note accordingly
11:09 riffraff ok I will try :/
11:10 gaal riffraff++
11:13 riffraff mh
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11:15 riffraff It seem that the presence of mtl is checked by comèpiling with -package mtl. Should I add an identical compilation-or-fail step or just merge the two (-packaget mtl -package network || you need both )?
11:15 riffraff I believe the latter is better
11:15 riffraff less descriptive maybe but since you do need both libraries it is the same
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11:18 gaal together is faster, but that doesn't matter much because it's makefile generation time, not build time
11:18 gaal sequential is more descriptive errors.
11:19 riffraff ok
11:20 gaal it may not be totally unreasonable to dunk compilation-detection completely and look at the output of "ghc-pkg list", not sure
11:22 gaal bbl...&
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11:50 riffraff err.. someone could tell me whats wrong with the indentation in "main =  let x = defaultProtocol ()" ?
11:56 gaal where's the next line?
11:59 riffraff doh
11:59 riffraff nevermind solved :)
11:59 riffraff thanks
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12:10 riffraff oh damn I lost my svn password..
12:20 moritz rho: re network-any - debian/control takes care of these if you build a .deb
12:20 moritz s/rho/riffraff/
12:20 moritz sorry ;)
12:20 gaal moritz: um this is at pugs build time, for people who aren't using a deb
12:23 moritz gaal: I know, but checking for depencies depends on the system, doesn't it?
12:25 gaal one sure way is to use ghc, because if that fails, pugs will fail to build :)
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12:48 svnbot6 r16611 | gabriele++ | Makefile.PL: Added check for ghc's network package  
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12:55 riffraff please do check that I have not broken anything, I did try the various permutation of mtl/network/nothing but just to be sure..
12:59 gaal riffraff: the mtl stuff looks good, but you seem to have expanded the tabs in the makeflie
12:59 gaal which would break it :(
13:04 rindolf Hi gaal
13:04 rindolf gaal: are you going to bike today?
13:07 riffraff oh damn, I had expandtab set yes
13:14 svnbot6 r16612 | gabriele++ | Makefile.PL: put tabs in place again which I removed in previous rev, sorry
13:17 riffraff thanks gaal for spotting that
13:17 riffraff changed the nick to riff\feedingPige
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13:21 svnbot6 r16613 | gaal++ | * add a closing brace dropped in riffraff++'s recent commit
13:21 gaal rindolf: i might
13:22 gaal riffraff: np
13:22 rindolf gaal: I'd like to go to.
13:22 gaal so go
13:22 rindolf gaal: lots of babes now in the Park.
13:22 rindolf gaal: would you like to meet in Park Hayarkon?
13:23 gaal no, and frankly I find that remark offensive in context.
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13:33 ahmadz_ hi
13:33 lambdabot ahmadz_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:39 gaal oh, hi ahmadz_. re: your report, not fixed yet, but you have the workaround, yes?
13:40 ahmadz_ yeah but since we have mod_perl, things are a bit messy
13:42 ahmadz_ i tried to smoke test a freebsd vm right now and it simply waited in /t/xx-uncategorized/io_finalize_part2.t. Turned out to be low disk space
13:45 gaal ahmadz_: note that if you *don't* have a ymlized prelude, you're taking a huge hit in startup time
13:46 gaal re the other thing, interesting bug :)
13:47 * gaal wonders how mod_perl is interplaying with pugs' prelude to make things messy
13:48 ahmadz_ gaal: i was doing mod_perl2 but turned out andara was doing mod_perl...
13:49 gaal you can always set PERL6LIB...
13:49 ahmadz_ cool... will do but after i sleep a bit ;-)
13:51 gaal have fun
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14:13 gaal clkao++ # svk ignore
14:14 svnbot6 r16614 | gaal++ | * add ignore props on generated files
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14:18 riff\feedingPige err, I asked this before but: someone knows how to add a class/role in prelude so that it is visible as builtin?
14:18 riff\feedingPige nick riffraff
14:18 riff\feedingPige changed the nick to riffraff
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14:19 gaal riffraff: what does that entail?
14:19 riffraff basically writing Foo at the REPL and not getting an error
14:20 riffraff see for example the role Iter is defined in Prelude but not available at the repl or in a script
14:21 gaal hmm, ack
14:21 gaal until it's fixed, use ::Iter
14:22 gaal bbl..
14:22 riffraff oh I don't really need iter, I was just thinking of adding dummy definitions for Positional, Associative and othyer builtin roles
14:23 gaal ::Whichever :)
14:23 gaal re-&
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15:08 rindolf gaal: I didn't have enough cold water, so I ended up taking a walk. :-(
15:09 rindolf I wish I had some liquid nitrogen.
15:09 rindolf Or a supercomputer.
15:09 rindolf I could put a bottle of water on it, and it will freeze.
15:10 rindolf Supercomputers use Liquid Nitrogen.
15:24 ntgrl changed the nick to integral
15:44 tcliou_ changed the nick to tcliouAway
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16:23 svnbot6 r16615 | moritz++ | problem97.t: whitespace/stylistic fixes
17:11 TimToady ?eval sub postfix:<®> ($x is ref) { $x }; my $Java® = 42; say $Java®;
17:12 evalbot_r16609 changed the nick to evalbot_r16615
17:12 evalbot_r16615 Error: Can't modify constant item: VRef <Scalar:0xb6798f80>
17:12 TimToady ?eval sub postfix:<®> ($x is ref) is rw { $x }; my $Java® = 42; say $Java®;
17:12 evalbot_r16615 Error: Can't modify constant item: VRef <Scalar:0xb6796aec>
17:12 TimToady ?eval sub postfix:<®> ($x is ref) is rw { $x }; my $Java = 42; say $Java®;
17:13 evalbot_r16615 OUTPUT[42␤] Bool::True
17:13 TimToady well, at least it works as rvalue...
17:14 TimToady arguably, <ident> should just slurp up the ®  :)
17:16 spinclad really?  looks like you declare it an operator there...
17:17 asksh joined #perl6
17:17 spinclad my ($Java®) = 42: ?
17:17 asksh joined #perl6
17:17 moritz TimToady: in S29:1189 the empty "=item pos" is that a "to be specced" method? or just an artefact?
17:18 spinclad (OTOH if ® is alphabetic...)
17:18 TimToady the above would have behaved differently if so
17:18 spinclad true
17:18 TimToady pos is in a prespecced state
17:19 TimToady ?eval "a" ~~ /<alpha>/
17:19 evalbot_r16615 *** Cannot parse regex: <alpha>␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
17:20 TimToady oh yeah, evalbot doesn't do character classes...
17:20 moritz so a regex match should set .pos on a string?
17:21 TimToady heh, Ⓡ is considered alpha, but not ®
17:22 TimToady yes, unless we decide that attaching .pos to a string is a violation of some principle or other
17:23 moritz alright
17:23 TimToady but it'd be nice to be able to continue one regex in a different regex like P5 can
17:23 TimToady possibly .pos would have to be both per string and per thread
17:24 moritz sounds... somehow scary ;)
17:24 spinclad per handle... open a string for parsing, returns handle
17:25 TimToady or generalize it into a marking facility, and pos is just one convention name for a mark
17:25 TimToady *conventional
17:27 TimToady the mark sigil could be ※   :)
17:27 spinclad that's ... the transistor glyph?
17:27 moritz what about '#'? have fun parsing sigils and comments ;)
17:27 spinclad the SQUID
17:28 TimToady "REFERENCE MARK"
17:28 spinclad good one then
17:29 TimToady hmm, if we rename @@ context to ** context, we could also use ⁑
17:30 TimToady but then we lose our multidim Whatever, sigh
17:30 moritz that's a bit weird anyway ;)
17:31 moritz or perhaps I just didn't understand it ...
17:32 TimToady maybe we could just lose the : after @@: as long as we have a space, basically say that a sigil with a space after it is a contextualizer listop
17:32 TimToady for @@ 1..3 X 'a'..'z' {...}
17:32 TimToady still pretty ugly...
17:35 explorer joined #perl6
17:35 TimToady but fits existing listop syntax better, and is slightly less ugly
17:39 Psyche^ joined #perl6
17:39 TimToady hmm, but we can't easily do the same with turning a type into a listop
17:40 TimToady currently Type: args expects a term after, and bare Type expects operator.  :/
17:41 TimToady listops are allowed to take 0 args though...
17:42 TimToady so $class = Foo; could still conceivably work as a typecast with no arguments
17:43 Kattana joined #perl6
17:45 TimToady hmm, STD doesn't allow func; as a valid listop syntax; that'a a bug...
17:56 Psyche^ changed the nick to Patterner
18:00 rindolf Hi all.
18:00 rindolf moritz: what's up?
18:00 rindolf TimToady: what's up?
18:01 rindolf TimToady: got nothing better to do on a Sat than chat with people who got nothing better to do on a Saturday?
18:07 * Juerd has better things to do but prefers IRC :)
18:07 andara joined #perl6
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18:09 svnbot6 r16616 | lwall++ | [STD] listops didn't parse non-ary calls like "print;"
18:09 svnbot6 r16616 | lwall++ | [STD] dropped : on typecasts; argless Type listop degenerates to protoobject
18:09 svnbot6 r16616 | lwall++ | [STD] likewise for sigils; chunky context is now "for @@ 1..3 X 1..2 {...}"
18:09 * TimToady prefers to do better things AND chat on IRC
18:10 TimToady well, up to a point.  depends on how much better...
18:13 ssotka joined #perl6
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18:28 Jmax hm, why do you work on pugs, TimToady ?  wouldn't your time be better spent on say, parrot?  or is there no real "official" perl6 interpreter?
18:29 rindolf TimToady: I'm trying to beef up the he.wikipedia.org entry about UNIX.
18:29 rindolf TimToady: translating the en.wikipedia.org UNIX entry to Hebrew will be mental suicide.
18:29 moritz Jmax: to specifiy a language, you have to use it, unless you want to fall in the theory trap ;)
18:29 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
18:29 Jmax so pugs is considered a "trial" p6 interpreter?
18:29 rindolf moritz: what's up?
18:30 rindolf Jmax: Parrot is a virtual machine.
18:30 Jmax a "use it now -- but not forever"?
18:30 rindolf Jmax: it's intended for many languages.
18:30 Jmax i know, i meant the p6 port of parrot
18:30 rindolf Jmax: pugs can generate parrot code.
18:30 moritz rindolf: not much... relaxing from having learned all day
18:30 rindolf Jmax: it can also generate JavaScript.
18:31 rindolf Incredibly bloated and non-semantic JavaScript
18:31 rindolf moritz: what did you learn?
18:31 moritz rindolf: s/can/could/
18:31 moritz rindolf: Material Physics for my exam on monday :(
18:31 rindolf moritz: Physics...
18:31 Jmax I see
18:32 rindolf I'm trying to collect some Perl testimonials.
18:32 moritz rindolf: what citerions do they have to meet?
18:32 rindolf I can go over the Perl success stories on Perl.com.
18:33 rindolf moritz: well, there should be a short sentence or two summarising them.
18:33 rindolf moritz: and then possibly a link to a more verbose description.
18:33 rindolf moritz: preferably by companies, universities, etc.
18:33 rindolf moritz: government agencies.
18:33 rindolf Although I suppose individuals will also be good.
18:34 rindolf moritz: it's for http://perl-begin.org/
18:34 lambdabot Title: Perl Beginners' Site
18:36 moritz rindolf: I could just give you the usual "I use perl for dynamic sites, and it works great" ;-)
18:36 [particle1 joined #perl6
18:36 rindolf moritz: that's kind-of lame.
18:37 moritz rindolf: I know ;)
18:39 rindolf moritz: if you can phrase a more substantial testimonial, and we'll sync a good testimonial, that would be nice.
18:39 rindolf I mean a good summary.
18:39 moritz rindolf: If I do I'll let you know ;)
18:52 svnbot6 r16617 | andara++ | [runpugs] -Better newline handling
18:53 andara left #perl6
18:54 japhb rindolf: Note that some of the big Perl projects (Mason, for instance) have their own testimonial sets, and those companies may be willing to do a plain Perl version, or say "We love Mason *because* of Perl" or something like that
18:57 rindolf japhb: are you japhy?
18:59 Jmax rindolf: there are a few good ones linked to on the catalyst dev wiki
19:00 rindolf Jmax: or on the Catlayst front page.
19:00 rindolf Jmax: thanks.
19:00 rindolf japhb: thanks.
19:00 rindolf japhb: lots of emails to send...
19:08 japhb rindolf: Nope, I'm not japhy.  I used to be geoffb on this channel, but I was nick colliding with someone else on freenode, so I had to change my nick
19:08 rindolf japhb: oh.
19:08 rindolf japhb: it's kind of confusing.
19:08 japhb It's a pun.  :-)
19:09 rindolf japhb: I'm going to bathe. TTYL.
19:09 dduncan joined #perl6
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19:12 nothingmuch 2/w 27
19:15 weinigLap joined #perl6
19:45 moritz what's wrong with specbot6 ?
19:48 rindolf Back.
19:48 rindolf japhb: where are you from?
19:59 TimToady moritz: bitrot of some sort, or maybe just audreyrot... :)
20:00 TimToady I haven't worried about it too much, on the assumption that most folks here also follow p6l.
20:00 TimToady but my karma suffers as a result.  :)
20:01 moritz TimToady++ # worrying about karma ;)
20:01 moritz or should I say lwall++ ? *g*
20:01 TimToady was gonna install Fedora 7 this morning, but got sidetracked into revising slicing...
20:01 TimToady forgot to eat too...
20:03 TimToady anyway, here's the checkin log:
20:03 TimToady Dropped : from all listop contextualizers, whether sigil and typename.
20:03 TimToady The @@ contextualizer is now also named "slice".
20:03 TimToady Consistent with that, we have regularized slice nomenclature:
20:03 TimToady * A "slice" now always refers to the whole multidimensional subscript, or the list of lists corresponding to that.
20:03 TimToady * We now try to avoid calling the individual sublists "slices".
20:03 TimToady * The parameter to a subscript is *@@slice, not *@@slices.
20:03 TimToady * The term "multislice" is now deemed redundant.
20:04 TimToady so now basically we can write either
20:04 TimToady for 1..3 X 1..2 -> $a, $b {...}
20:04 TimToady or
20:05 TimToady for @@ 1..3 X 1..2 -> [$a, $b] {...}
20:07 TimToady and foo $ bar almost looks like Haskell...
20:07 TimToady being equivalent to foo $(bar)
20:07 moritz ;-)
20:08 mj41 Synopses changes http://perl6.cz/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1ln%C3%AD:Recentchanges  More readable then diffs, IMHO.
20:08 lambdabot Title: Poslední změny - perl6.cz, http://tinyurl.com/2xbg6v
20:08 moritz haskell poisons your mind ;)
20:09 mj41 S03, there is not hash equivalent for $ 1,2 X 3,4      # [\(1,3),\(1,4),\(2,3),\(2,4)] ?
20:11 ludan joined #perl6
20:13 silug joined #perl6
20:13 TimToady no, because it would just create a bunch of duplicate keys
20:14 TimToady you can't have both 1=>3 and 1=>4 in the same hash
20:19 mj41 yes, i understood, thanks ... and result is runtime error or what?
20:20 TimToady you'd just end up with a hash containing 1=>4 and 2=>4
20:20 TimToady maybe we'll end up with a set context though.  %% perhaps
20:20 mj41 :-)
20:20 moritz what about user definable contexts?
20:21 TimToady they're just listops
20:28 gaal I misread the bl as "forgot to eat too... / anyway, here's the chicken log"
20:28 moritz ;-)
20:30 gaal and lest I foget to sleep, moose.
20:30 moritz sleep+moose = sloose?
20:30 moritz gaal: good night ;)
20:30 gaal .oO(slooswalking)
20:35 devogon joined #perl6
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21:08 svnbot6 r16618 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : updated QDRDBMS.pm and Copying.pod so they state better rationale concerning licensing
21:31 luqui joined #perl6
21:31 svnbot6 r16619 | moritz++ | reorganized smartlinks in t/operator/binding/scalars.t
21:32 dduncan ?eval my $foo = [1,2,3]; print @($foo);
21:33 evalbot_r16615 changed the nick to evalbot_r16617
21:33 evalbot_r16617 OUTPUT[123] Bool::True
21:33 dduncan ?eval my $foo = [1,2,3]; print @{$foo};
21:33 evalbot_r16617 Error: ␤Unexpected "{$"␤expecting "@" or "::"
21:39 justatheory joined #perl6
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21:53 * Aankhen`` wonders if he'll ever understand @@.
21:54 gaal the hiyyyya operator
21:54 Aankhen`` @.@
21:54 lambdabot Not enough arguments to @.
21:54 * moritz slaps lambdabot ;)
21:54 Aankhen`` Heh.
21:54 * gaal can't sleep, and is looking for the misplaced circularity saw
21:55 gaal would sure be nice to pull out a Pugs.AST.Env
21:56 Juerd @@ is just two snails in pursuit.
21:56 Juerd They're not that fast, you see.
21:56 Aankhen`` Heh.
21:56 Juerd It may take a while.
21:56 moritz Aankhen``: I understand @@ just as non-flattening list context
21:56 Khisanth lazy operators and slow variables, perl6 sounds a bit sluggish
21:57 andara joined #perl6
21:59 Aankhen`` moritz: Hmm.  I see.  I think I had missed the whole @() flattening automatically thing.
21:59 Aankhen`` ?eval @([1, 2], [3, 4])
21:59 evalbot_r16617 changed the nick to evalbot_r16618
21:59 evalbot_r16618 [[1, 2], [3, 4]]
21:59 Aankhen`` (Or so I infer.)
21:59 Aankhen`` Is Pugs correct there?
21:59 moritz I don't know
21:59 Aankhen`` The only way I'm going to understand @@ is if @ does flatten by default. 8-|
22:00 Aankhen`` s/ by default//
22:00 moritz but I know that 1, 2 Z 3, 4 should be (1, 3, 2, 4)
22:00 moritz and in @@ context it should actually be ([1,3],[2,4])
22:00 Aankhen`` Well, I was in the middle of reading r14413, so I'll see if that helps before whining any more.
22:00 japhb TimToady++ # The huffmanized syntax you're looking for is just the degenerate case of something more general
22:00 moritz Aankhen``: I think explicitly using []'s prevents flattening
22:01 Juerd Aankhen``: @ does flatten in list context.
22:01 Aankhen`` Ah.
22:01 moritz ?eval my @a=<a b>; my @c=1,@a
22:01 Juerd Aankhen``: That's the main difference between the array @foo and the array $foo
22:01 Juerd Aankhen``: @foo flattens in list context, $foo does not.
22:01 Aankhen`` Right.
22:01 evalbot_r16618 [1, "a", "b"]
22:02 Aankhen`` @ doesn't recursively flatten, does it?
22:03 gaal "Inside must be a list of pairs, otherwise you must use C<hash()>" -- r14414 -- so { %h } doesn't flatten?
22:04 Juerd %h flattens to a list of pairs
22:04 Juerd iirc
22:05 Juerd Or must it syntactically be a list of pairs?
22:05 Juerd 'cause that'd suck.
22:05 gaal that's my question
22:05 Aankhen`` Wouldn't *you* like to know?
22:06 Aankhen`` Man, I still can't get over how long it took me to understand multidimensional arrays vs. AoAs.
22:06 * Aankhen`` shakes his head.
22:08 lumi gaal: What are you circularity sawing?
22:09 gaal I'm trying to pull data Env out of Pugs.AST.Internals
22:09 gaal like miraculously Eval is out
22:09 gaal but Eval wants Env and Env needs Eval, so.
22:12 gaal bbiab
22:16 lumi What is envEval used for?
22:18 jisom joined #perl6
22:19 srbot joined #perl6
22:19 lumi Maybe it can be split into a seperate ReaderT
22:28 daxim joined #perl6
22:40 srbot joined #perl6
22:41 tabris|away changed the nick to srbot
22:42 srbot changed the nick to tabris
22:43 srbot joined #perl6
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22:53 srbot joined #perl6
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23:16 dduncan question ... is it normal for Perl 6 code to contain literals that start with \ ?
23:17 dduncan eg, my $x = \"foo";
23:17 dduncan rather than = "foo"
23:17 PerlJam only if you're constructing a Capture.
23:17 dduncan I'm wondering why Pugs' .perl() prints out a leading backslash
23:17 PerlJam (though I don't think pugs understands Captures yet)
23:17 dduncan ?eval my $foo = 3; say $foo;
23:17 dduncan I mean
23:18 dduncan ?eval my $foo = 3; say $foo.perl();
23:18 evalbot_r16618 changed the nick to evalbot_r16619
23:18 evalbot_r16619 OUTPUT[3␤] Bool::True
23:18 evalbot_r16619 OUTPUT[\3␤] Bool::True
23:18 dduncan so why the backslash, I'm wondering
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23:30 srbot joined #perl6
23:32 svnbot6 r16620 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/QDRDBMS/ : tweaked a bit of contextualizing code in AST.pm
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