Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:17 obvio171_ joined #perl6
00:19 weinigLap joined #perl6
00:32 Qjimbo hmmm
00:33 Qjimbo I keep getting "Can't read configuration in cgi.conf: No such file or directory" even though cgi.conf is in the same folder
00:33 silug joined #perl6
00:35 Qjimbo aah chmod prob
00:36 Qjimbo no wait
00:36 Qjimbo it isn't =/
00:38 Qjimbo [Mon Jun 04 20:36:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] /bin/pwd:
00:38 Qjimbo [Mon Jun 04 20:36:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] cannot open directory `../..'
00:38 Qjimbo [Mon Jun 04 20:36:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] : Permission denied
00:38 Qjimbo hmm
00:50 Qjimbo yeah perl isn't looking in the current path for some reason
00:50 Qjimbo =/
00:50 Tene should it be?
00:50 Tene Qjimbo: depends on how you're serving it.  what's your apache configuration?
00:51 Qjimbo I don't know =p
00:51 Qjimbo I can have a look though, what should I look for?
00:54 Alchemy joined #perl6
00:54 Tene Qjimbo: how do you have the cgi set up to be served by apache?
00:54 Qjimbo I have no idea, though I'm not sure it even is set up in a way, I use .htaccess files
00:54 Qjimbo Options +ExecCGI +FollowSymLinks +Includes
00:54 Qjimbo AddHandler cgi-script .cgi .pl
00:54 Qjimbo DirectoryIndex index.pl
00:55 nipotaway changed the nick to nipotan
00:57 luqui joined #perl6
00:57 Tene Qjimbo: add a cgi that just prints the output of the command 'pwd'
00:58 Qjimbo how would I do that?
00:59 Qjimbo (yes I'm a perl noob)
01:04 luqui Qjimbo, are you asking about perl 6?
01:05 Qjimbo wait a sec
01:05 Qjimbo OH GOD
01:05 Qjimbo it's perl 5 on the server!
01:05 Qjimbo god I'm such an idiot, I'm sorry
01:05 luqui 'sok
01:05 deq` joined #perl6
01:06 Qjimbo now I need to figure out how to emerge perl 6
01:06 luqui Qjimbo, you probably don't want to
01:06 luqui er, maybe you do
01:06 luqui I don't know your purpose
01:06 Qjimbo well I just want to run perl scripts
01:06 luqui perl 5 is still the popular, stable version of perl
01:06 Qjimbo with apache and command line
01:07 Qjimbo yeah the bot works in it
01:07 Qjimbo just not the web stuff for some reaso
01:07 Qjimbo *reason
01:07 luqui internal server error?
01:07 Qjimbo nah just it not being passed the current path from apache or something
01:08 weinigLap changed the nick to weinigFood
01:15 Schwern joined #perl6
01:18 dolmans joined #perl6
01:36 dduncan well, it looks like my namespace registration for CPAN was approved 10 minutes ago ...
01:36 dduncan so QDRDBMS is now known as Muldis::DB
01:36 dduncan hopefully there won't be any issues with that, and it'll be the long term name
01:37 luqui I haven't registered a namespace in a long time
01:39 agentzh joined #perl6
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01:40 jmlin joined #perl6
01:40 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.66 pasted "autosmoke build failure on feather" (238 lines, 13.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/25365
01:41 agentzh do i have to do a realclean there?
01:44 bonesss joined #perl6
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01:48 prism joined #perl6
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02:23 thoughtpolice weee
02:23 thoughtpolice monaddo({my $a = 1},{ .say }) == 1
02:24 thoughtpolice once my perl 6 monad implementation is done, i will be able to boast about it because apparently a lot of people don't like monads. :(
02:26 luqui thoughtpolice, woah, interesting syntax
02:26 weinigFood changed the nick to weinig
02:26 luqui am I correct in assuming that you may say monaddo({ my $a = 1 }, { $a.say })
02:26 luqui ?
02:27 thoughtpolice no
02:27 thoughtpolice just .say works
02:27 luqui okay good
02:27 thoughtpolice right now actually,
02:27 thoughtpolice $a.say wouldn't work anyway
02:27 luqui so how do you handle monadic binding
02:27 thoughtpolice it's a very basic implementation
02:27 luqui i.e. do { a <- something; b <- somethingelse; return (a + b) }
02:27 thoughtpolice i'm working on trying to reduce from haskell monad's as directly as possible
02:27 thoughtpolice answer: i'm working on it.
02:28 luqui hm
02:28 luqui okay.  you might find some solace using continuations, actually
02:28 thoughtpolice perhaps.
02:28 luqui did I just say that ? :-)
02:28 thoughtpolice the monaddo I had above is more simple than you'd think
02:28 luqui monads are very simple
02:28 * jql inserts the "and now you have two problems" quote here
02:29 luqui I once worked on a monad module for perl5
02:29 thoughtpolice it's only like
02:29 thoughtpolice four lines
02:30 thoughtpolice sub monaddo(&b,*@a) { my $x = b(); $x = $_($x) for @a; }
02:30 thoughtpolice so you might say there's a bit of work to be done :)
02:30 thoughtpolice but hopefully I can come up with something workable
02:31 luqui yeah, that's, um, the identity monad?
02:31 luqui good luck anyway
02:31 luqui I couldn't find a good way to do it in p5 without resorting to source filters
02:31 thoughtpolice well it's for something i'm writing. my hope is basically to implement 'maybe' by one means or another;
02:32 luqui maybe the function or maybe the monad?
02:32 thoughtpolice monad
02:32 thoughtpolice actually to be precise it's a monad I made up; Click
02:32 luqui yeah, that's a useful one
02:32 luqui make sure you get the list monad, too
02:32 luqui I use that all the time; perhaps it is my favorite
02:32 thoughtpolice but Click is the exact same as Maybe.
02:32 thoughtpolice I only introduced it that way for simplicity
02:33 thoughtpolice and gave a basic implementation of what it might look like/what happens in usage.
02:33 thoughtpolice but Maybe is a good monad. it's probably the simplest monad that does something fairly usefeul
02:33 thoughtpolice well except maybe list but :p
02:34 luqui :-)
02:34 thoughtpolice but granted variable binding is the main thing that's the issue.
02:34 thoughtpolice especially for a direct reduction from haskell monads to a perl 6 monad lib.
02:36 thoughtpolice interestingly this thing I'm writing (blog post) helped me with monads more as well; particularly their actual implementation and how to create your own.
02:37 thoughtpolice so now I can implement my own to get cred :p
02:37 luqui heh
02:38 thoughtpolice but i don't quite know why a lot of people eschew them so horribly; they're really a pretty useful abstraction.
02:38 luqui they just take a long time to get used to
02:40 thoughtpolice i suppose.
02:41 thoughtpolice imo the difficulty of groking them is somewhat worked up to a degree.
02:42 luqui monads as containers is a nice tool
02:42 PerlJam thoughtpolice: explain monads in one sentence or less ;-)
02:43 luqui or take paul graham's approach: explain monads using only one-syllable words
02:43 luqui but I can't even ask the question doing that, so nevermind
02:44 thoughtpolice PerlJam: a monad is an abstraction that lets you create 'sequential' evaluation.
02:45 thoughtpolice more specifically they let you do this in a way where you can make the rules with your own monads.
02:47 PerlJam thoughtpolice: and you wonder why people think of them as difficult.
02:47 thoughtpolice i do; but I suppose in part that's due to the way they're explained generally.
02:47 PerlJam perhaps
02:47 luqui like being able to make the rules for sequential evaluation... ;-)
02:47 thoughtpolice not enough code and a little to many words would be a good way to put it.
02:49 PerlJam I think people have trouble with monads for the same reason people have trouble with recursion.  They aren't exposed to it early enough so it seems like something out of left field when it actually is introduced
02:49 luqui and it's tough to think about if you haven't been exposed to it before
02:49 luqui I was lucky enough to have fully groked closures when I was introduced to monads
02:50 PerlJam If lisp or scheme is you first language, you may have a better grasp of monads than your average procedural programmer IMHO
02:50 PerlJam not that they are related, just that your brain is better prepared.
02:50 thoughtpolice if you ask me i think people need to be shown more example than more 'theory' (which is the approach many tutorials on monads take)
02:50 thoughtpolice example: http://hpaste.org/171
02:51 Aankhen`` I'm learning Lisp and I understand closures well enough, but monads escape my comprehension. :-(
02:51 thoughtpolice that's an implementation of a useful monad; providing you can understand what do-notation does and you know the bind operator, most of it should become clear
02:51 thoughtpolice fairly immediately.
02:52 luqui knowing the bind operator is the hardest part, but after seeing the output it should be clear what's going
02:52 luqui on
02:52 luqui what's the example you're using
02:52 luqui I don't understand the clicked idea
02:52 PerlJam Aankhen``: monads are just more abstract than you're used to :)
02:52 Aankhen`` Ah.
02:52 Aankhen`` Well, I'm reading Wikipedia to try understanding them once again.
02:52 thoughtpolice the idea is just that your expressions either 'click' or they're 'silent'
02:53 Aankhen`` (What is this, the fifth time? :-P)
02:53 thoughtpolice a quick look reveals,
02:53 thoughtpolice that the Click monad is the exact same monad as Maybe
02:53 PerlJam thoughtpolice: but the words are all different ;)
02:53 damog joined #perl6
02:53 thoughtpolice :(
02:53 damog left #perl6
02:54 luqui thoughtpolice, yeah, I guess... it's not obvious to me though
02:54 thoughtpolice luqui: well the example comes from the article i'm writing
02:54 luqui I'd probably get it with more context
02:54 thoughtpolice and it's for that article specifically; I explained it there
02:54 thoughtpolice which would probably explain what the deal is.
02:54 PerlJam thoughtpolice: where's the article?
02:55 thoughtpolice PerlJam: I'm still working on it
02:55 PerlJam so?  let us see!  :)
02:55 thoughtpolice it's about applying the principles of functional programming to Perl 6. the monad's section I prefixed with 'somewhat tangential' since monads aren't necessarily directly related to functional programming, but they're an interesting enough topic to merit the extra writing.
02:56 Aankhen`` Nope, fifth time isn't the charm. *goes back to Lisp*
02:57 thoughtpolice PerlJam: actually if you gimme a moment I'll publish it; I can continue with the implementation of a monad like 'click' in perl 6 in a later interlude. plus blogger's 'compose' mode is really, really starting to aggrivate me to the point I don't want to have to fix my code every time I want to keep adding on
02:57 PerlJam Aankhen``: don't worry about it. I know I haven't fully grokked monads either. Specific instances of a monad "click" :) for me, but the generality of it tends to elude my complete understand.
02:57 PerlJam (i.e., I probably couldn't create a monad to save my life, but I can recognize and use them)
02:58 luqui I can use any monad comfortably now, but I still have to pound my head against the wall a bit to write one
02:59 luqui I was faced with the challenge of explaining monads to my roommate a few weeks back
02:59 Aankhen`` PerlJam: LOL. Okay, thanks for the encouragment!
02:59 luqui I ended up going with that you're building a data structure that represents your code
02:59 PerlJam thoughtpolice: if your article doesn't already do so, could you provide a practical application for monads in perl 6 at some point?
02:59 luqui list monad!
02:59 luqui great for combinatorical stuff
03:00 PerlJam thoughtpolice: get together with mjd and you can write HOP6 or something ;)
03:00 * Aankhen`` will apply partial evaluation to thoughtpolice's article in hopes of being able to at least understand them. ;-)
03:01 PerlJam I wonder how many other people share the same mental block that luqui and I seem to have.
03:01 thoughtpolice PerlJam: the fundamental abstraction of a monad -is- the benefit
03:01 agentzh left #perl6
03:02 thoughtpolice here's the post if anybody wants to take the time to read through it: http://diveintoperl6.blogspot.com/2007/05/​interlude-functional-programming-with.html
03:02 lambdabot Title: Dive into Perl 6: Interlude: Functional Programming with a side of Perl 6, http://tinyurl.com/22ldza
03:03 mncharity luqui: I haven't backlogged, but note that I've always liked Arrows much more than Monads.  Superset.  And feel much less of a kludge.
03:03 * luqui doesn't grok arrows yet
03:03 luqui I've tried a few times
03:03 luqui but I haven't seen any applications
03:04 PerlJam thoughtpolice: I think you've just highlighted "the" problem with monads.  People (myself included) are always looking for the concrete and monads are almost entirely about the abstract.
03:05 luqui the list monad is what brought it together for me, really
03:05 luqui that's when I started seeing more to them than there is to IO
03:05 thoughtpolice i don't know; I've grown use to abstractions over time.
03:05 thoughtpolice so I guess the real 'answer' to the monads dilemma
03:05 thoughtpolice is YMMV
03:05 Aankhen`` ?eval <a b c d>.map(&say)
03:05 thoughtpolice and personally,
03:05 thoughtpolice the Writer monad is what 'clinched' the story for me
03:05 luqui thoughtpolice, how long have you been using haskell?
03:05 Aankhen`` ENOEVALBOT
03:05 thoughtpolice luqui: um, it's june,
03:05 thoughtpolice so
03:05 thoughtpolice I'd say it's roughly our 3.5 month anniversary or so.
03:06 luqui our?
03:06 thoughtpolice haskell :)
03:06 luqui ah
03:07 Aankhen`` thoughtpolice: One note: You could not directly say 'hiordr(say,"asdf")' # s/say/&say/ and it works.
03:07 thoughtpolice Aankhen``: ah. thanks. :)
03:07 luqui thoughtpolice, used the reader monad?
03:07 Aankhen`` Wait, I'm about 13 revisions behind, so that might have changed.
03:07 thoughtpolice luqui: a little bit.
03:07 Aankhen`` Er, more like 17.
03:08 thoughtpolice actually I have an article I wrote over using the writer monad
03:08 thoughtpolice after it really brought things together for me
03:08 rashakil left #perl6
03:08 thoughtpolice I suppose you may more accurately see it as
03:08 luqui joined #perl6
03:08 thoughtpolice 'a small field guide to haskell development'
03:08 PerlJam thoughtpolice: btw, I don't think Click is *exactly* the same as Maybe.  ISTRT Maybe handles fail and Click does not.
03:09 Aankhen`` @r.push($v) unless $x; # shouldn't that be *if* $x?
03:09 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
03:09 luqui haha
03:09 thoughtpolice PerlJam: well not the exact same, but their usage pretty much is.
03:09 thoughtpolice Aankhen``: no, I tried it.
03:09 luqui the algebra is the same
03:09 Aankhen`` AIUI, what you have will only push if the tester function returns true.
03:09 Aankhen`` Er, false.
03:09 thoughtpolice for some reason it returned the inverse.
03:09 Aankhen`` Hmm, weird.
03:09 thoughtpolice yeah i thought so too
03:10 PerlJam no, your block is just wrong
03:10 PerlJam $_ % 2 == 0 when they're even
03:10 PerlJam (which is a false value)
03:11 thoughtpolice btw if anybody is interested in that writer monad article: http://austin.youareinferior.net/?q=node/22. it's probably *not* the best intro to using monads in general, but it shows how to use writer and I explained it best I could.
03:11 lambdabot Title: On Haskell: Writing a black-list filter using the Writer Monad | totally insane
03:11 thoughtpolice PerlJam: ah, thanks. I overlooked that.
03:11 thoughtpolice i'll change it in just a sec
03:11 PerlJam btw, thoughtpolice++  If I keep reading your articles, I may get back into Haskell again :)
03:11 thoughtpolice :)
03:12 thoughtpolice couple more ++'s and my karma will probably be up to a whopping 15 :p
03:12 Tene thoughtpolice++
03:12 Aankhen`` thoughtpolice++
03:12 thoughtpolice haha
03:13 Tene nine hundred more ++'s and your karma will probably be up to a whopping 915
03:13 PerlJam heh
03:13 thoughtpolice PerlJam: changed.
03:13 thoughtpolice thanks btw
03:14 thoughtpolice PerlJam++
03:14 thoughtpolice i need a script that'll just automatically give people karma once they give me an annotation to my posts
03:14 PerlJam a couple of more ++ and my karma will be a whopping ... somethingerother.
03:14 PerlJam :-)
03:15 thoughtpolice you guys can quote me on that later in life :)
03:16 Aankhen`` Heh.
03:20 TimToady FP : relativity :: OO : quantum mechanics
03:20 thoughtpolice btw PerlJam, I hope to get you back into haskell. that is in reality my deep, dark purpose.
03:20 TimToady or maybe FP : OO :: relativity : qm
03:20 thoughtpolice oh, i didn't admit that though. everybody /cycle
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03:23 PerlJam thoughtpolice: I don't know if I'll have time for it much.  Back in the early days of pugs, I wrote a little code here and there (I think I fleshed out the first while loop or an unless conditional or something) but I haven't had the energy to keep at it.
03:23 luqui I think that's a law of analogies:  a : b :: c : d <=> a : c :: b : d
03:23 thoughtpolice PerlJam: fun stuff.
03:24 luqui though I've written some fairly OOish things in haskell with the help of ghc's existential types
03:24 luqui it's not... natural though
03:24 luqui but with a little syntax sugar it could be
03:24 TimToady yes, I was thinking about the best way to present it...
03:24 PerlJam But, I have to admit that of all the function languages I have encounted, Haskell is the most fun.  
03:24 thoughtpolice PerlJam: most def.
03:24 PerlJam s/function/functional/
03:24 thoughtpolice speaking of OO, anybody ever tried O'Haskell?
03:25 luqui perl 6 ain't bad, when you're talking to it's functional face
03:25 TimToady perl 6 embraces both determinism and non-determinism :)
03:28 ajs_home joined #perl6
03:28 TimToady the main problem with monads is that they're too hard to lift...
03:28 ajs_home left #perl6
03:28 PerlJam TimToady: You've gotten punnier in your old age.  (or perhaps its just that I didn't know how punny you were in your younger days)
03:29 TimToady maybe I'm just not as subtle anymore...
03:29 PerlJam Could be that too.
03:29 luqui I remember him commenting on a talk at my first YAPC
03:29 PerlJam Or maybe you *are* subtle and I'm just perceptive ;)
03:30 thoughtpolice the world may never know.
03:30 luqui he punned after each sentence, uh, Allison? said
03:30 Khisanth joined #perl6
03:31 luqui I think his punniness has stayed approximately constant
03:31 PerlJam Einstein had a constant once.
03:32 TimToady cc!
03:32 TimToady but I actually meant the "too hard to life" seriously
03:32 TimToady *lift
03:33 TimToady monads can be seen as strange objects that aren't allowed to ever enter the same state twice
03:33 TimToady and in OO you can encapsulate such behavior, but
03:33 TimToady as soon as two objects start talking to each other
03:34 TimToady the indeterminacy sneaks back in unless you're careful.
03:34 TimToady monads are about preventing that...
03:34 luqui hmm, interesting take
03:34 TimToady whether you want to or not...
03:34 TimToady I'm an idiot savant--I meta-understand monads without understanding monads... :)
03:36 thoughtpolice an award is needed. :)
03:36 TimToady the Black Moose awards are coming up...
03:36 PerlJam The Black Camel Award?  ;>
03:37 ahmadz joined #perl6
03:39 thoughtpolice TimToady: hopefully one day i'll get to the 'meta' level. if I ever get to meta-meta, I'll send you a postcard from wherever the hell I was when I figured that out.
03:40 luqui hmmm, what's the converse of meta
03:41 thoughtpolice unmeta in newspeak. :)
03:42 TimToady I think it's usually called "can't see the forest for the trees" :)
03:42 TimToady or maybe that's Never-Meta Land
03:43 TimToady .oO(I never meta ... I didn't like)Oo.
03:43 luqui sigh
03:44 TimToady so monads enforce computational progress much like entropy does in the universe, except at the QM level, where things seem to be able to go back to the same state...
03:44 luqui what's this?
03:44 luqui all QM is reversible
03:44 weinig_ joined #perl6
03:44 TimToady agreed
03:45 luqui so it can't go back into the same state...
03:45 TimToady and objects can go back to the same state
03:45 TimToady which it are you referring to that can't go back?
03:45 luqui I don't know that much QM, but I know about the reversibility thing
03:46 luqui and if you go back into the same state, you have a cycle
03:46 luqui I don't know where I'm going with this
03:46 luqui it'll hit me later tonight :-)
03:47 TimToady it is my understanding that a quantum computer can only fluctuate randomly, you can't actually tell it to progress
03:47 * luqui doesn't know enough to reach that type of understanding
03:47 weinig joined #perl6
03:47 luqui I'm at the "a quantum computer is like nothing I've imagined before" level
03:48 TimToady yes, well, I'm sure my analogy will strain itself if I push it too much further.  :)
03:49 TimToady but I have to talk about The Scripting Language Paradigm this weekend
03:49 thoughtpolice pretty soon, things in the universe are going to loop around to the point where your 'quantum computer' will actually be a bread box.
03:49 PerlJam TimToady: According to Geoffrey Moore you're an "Internet founding stalwart" and Tim O'Reilly seems to think that you can "see around corners".  So there's something to be said for stalwarts who can see around corners. :-)
03:49 thoughtpolice and 1 will == dog
03:49 TimToady and am thinking about Program as Text (where there's some tie to string theory there in pun form)
03:50 TimToady and I'm the 100th most influential person in IT, which means I'm only famous for very nearly not being famous... :)
03:51 Alias_ heh
03:51 thoughtpolice would you rate that as > or < not being famous entirely?
03:51 Alias_ Depends if you want fanboys
03:51 TimToady being famous has helped me once.
03:52 TimToady when YAPC was in Munich, and I didn't know where.
03:52 luqui heh
03:52 PerlJam someone recognized you and showed you the way?
03:52 TimToady I said to Glo, let's just wander up and down the Marianplatz until someone
03:52 TimToady recognized me.
03:52 Alias_ heh
03:52 TimToady eventually someone did a double take
03:52 TimToady and I said "Where are they?
03:52 TimToady "
03:53 TimToady only took 1.5 trips across
03:54 TimToady I suppose it's also got me some number of speaking engagements, but those don't always feel like a net positive...
03:56 TimToady so I have to tell people the history of scripting languages, past, present, and future, in 12-15 minutes on Sunday. :)
03:57 PerlJam TimToady: merlyn has gottne a number of speaking engagements for being infamous.  You don't want to be famous like that  ;-)
03:57 TimToady I guess I can comfort myself that there's no lack of material...
03:57 TimToady but I do hate writing talks...
03:59 luqui there are probably enough scripting languages just to do a poem listing all of them without context
03:59 thoughtpolice most likely.
03:59 * SubStack gets right on it.
04:00 luqui I wish _I_ hated writing talks and were really good at it
04:00 luqui I find myself in the opposite situation
04:01 Alias_ TimToady: I quite enjoyed my first 5 talks or so
04:01 Alias_ TimToady: I'm running out of material now though
04:01 Alias_ Other than "So here's what I did since last year"
04:01 TimToady I have to talk about that too this summer, but not this weekend, fortunately
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04:03 obra TimToady: the Scripting Languages talk is 15 minutes?
04:03 obra That's crazy
04:04 TimToady it's the final panel
04:04 TimToady I'm sharing 1:20 with three other of the caliber of Bertrand Meyer
04:04 TimToady and they want some time for open QA
04:04 TimToady Q&A even :)
04:05 luqui better make sure you have a test suite for your talk
04:05 obra Not so bad.
04:05 TimToady the other "Paradigms" are OO, FP, and high-performance/parallel
04:06 TimToady it will be difficult not to go in and say "all your paradigms are belong to us"
04:06 luqui what about both logic languages!?
04:06 Alias_ no logic ?
04:06 TimToady dropped out
04:06 Alias_ Or Oz/Multi-paradigmic
04:06 TimToady they only support 8 paradigms
04:06 TimToady my goal is for Perl 6 to be lower on the wikipedia page than Oz. :)
04:07 * Alias_ is trying to get into Oz a bit... and not getting very far
04:07 Alias_ I couldn't help but appreciate the linguistic detail in Perl
04:07 luqui I found it hard to get into
04:07 luqui mostly because of its obsession with emacs
04:07 Alias_ Because the stuff in Oz feels like a bad english translation of swedish
04:08 TimToady it's always a mistake to think of a programming langage as embedded in an OS
04:08 Alias_ oh god, the emacs thing too
04:08 Alias_ I was sitting there ticking off the check boxes on the "Why your project fails Ashton's Law" list
04:09 TimToady Oberon tried the OS thing too
04:11 Alias_ What's worse then forcing emacs, the TUTORIAL Hello World examples don't run outside emacs
04:11 Alias_ It took me until chapter 9 to cobble together something that would compile standalone
04:12 mncharity Alias_:  you might find (disclaimer: my) http://www.vendian.org/oz/w​iki/index.cgi?VirtualManual helpful
04:13 mncharity though quite possibly bitrotted away at this point
04:16 Alias_ Well, anything would help at this point
04:19 thoughtpolice i looked into Oz a little a long time ago
04:19 thoughtpolice only thing I've heard about it recently is their goal to get Oz to compile to Erlang
04:21 Alias_ I encountered looking for a contraint solver that had a more readable/usable syntax than Prolog
04:21 TimToady well, now if we can just get Perl 6 compiling down to Oz...
04:21 deq` joined #perl6
04:21 Alias_ Because Prolog has something of a Lispy-aged feel to it
04:21 Alias_ I have a fairly classic dinner table problem I need solved
04:22 offby1 what wine to serve with fish?
04:22 Alias_ :)
04:22 thoughtpolice Perl 6 -> A++ would be a nice one. :)
04:22 thoughtpolice s:2nd/\+//
04:22 Alias_ TimToady: Any logic solving stuff in Perl 6 atm?
04:23 Alias_ I couldn't recall anything...
04:23 TimToady it's just a SMAG
04:23 TimToady SMOG rather
04:23 Alias_ G?
04:23 TimToady Grammar
04:23 Alias_ ah
04:24 Alias_ If it comes in Perl 6.1 I wouldn't mind tbh
04:30 Aankhen`` perlbot: SMOG?
04:30 Aankhen`` Bah.
04:31 Aankhen`` o_O
04:31 Aankhen`` Interesting.
04:36 TimToady a play on SMOP
04:36 TimToady a Small Matter of Programming
04:37 Aankhen`` Ahh, heh.
04:42 Tene Alias_: I can't find anything on google about ashton's law and programming.
04:42 Alias_ Ashton's Law is a recent one :)
04:42 Alias_ Named after Elaine Ashton
04:43 Alias_ "Just make it fucking easy to install"
04:43 obvio171_ changed the nick to obvio171
04:44 Alias_ It explains why Oz takeup is low, but PHP is everywhere :)
04:45 Tene perhaps we should exploit future IE vulnerabilities so that you can click a link in your browser and have Perl 6 installed on your windows system automagically.
04:46 Alias_ Wouldn't be hard
04:46 Alias_ Strawberry Perl is close to that easy to install
04:47 SubStack It's easiest when it's already installed.
04:47 Alias_ true
04:48 Alias_ Dunno how easy it would be to get a bundling deal with Dell though
04:48 SubStack already does through ubuntu and friends
04:48 [particle] Alias_: last time i tried to compile parrot with strawberry perl it was not happy
04:49 Alias_ hrm
04:49 Alias_ [particle]: hrm... I'm not entirely surprised...
04:50 [particle] i have a new dual xeon system to play with, and as soon as i get it running, i'll try again
04:50 Alias_ We've tweaked most of it just for our own context, it's not really setup as a general environment
04:50 [particle] i'll be building parrot for vista x64
04:50 Alias_ But if it works, that would be interesting
04:50 [particle] ah, i see
04:50 Alias_ Not heavily, we try to keep things relatively untouched
04:50 [particle] yes, i'd like to get it working, but it's certainly not critical to parrot
04:50 Alias_ But there's a novel make setup
04:51 Alias_ And there's a few little games with libs
04:51 [particle] have you built strawberry as 64bit?
04:51 Alias_ I've never built Strawberry full stop :)
04:52 Alias_ I just steer the ship, I avoid that side of it
04:52 [particle] well then
04:52 Alias_ Perl::Dist::Strawberry though...
04:52 Alias_ All the code to build it yourself
04:52 Alias_ Making sure everything is replicatable is about as hands on as I get in that area
04:52 gaal thoughtpolice: we lifted a few techniques from the oohaskell paper. see MO and Pugs.Class
04:53 Alias_ (since I'm not a C coder, I'm not the most appropriate person to be playing with compiling things anyways)
04:53 [particle] okay, if i get back into it, i'll pollute the appropriate list/channel with my rants
04:53 Alias_ ok, thanks
04:53 Alias_ DAGOLDEN is who you want I think
04:53 Alias_ I mostly deal with CPAN toolchain stuff
04:53 [particle] i've noticed :)
04:54 Alias_ some of the others in #win32 also know C though
04:54 [particle] cpan: the 'a' is for alias
04:54 Alias_ hahaha :)
04:54 Alias_ Can I quote that :)
04:54 [particle] go right ahead
04:58 [particle] you might have to fight audrey for that letter, though
04:59 Alias_ :)
04:59 Alias_ nah
04:59 Alias_ I trump Audrey on that one
05:00 Alias_ The person I really need to worry about is Andreas :)
05:00 [particle] heh, i suppose you're right :)
05:00 Alias_ hrm
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05:09 gaal can't "a" stand for "Andreas and Alias and Audrey and..."?
05:10 Alias_ Doesn't have quite the same ring to it :)
05:10 gaal "ah ah and also"
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05:22 gaal @tell Limbic_Region what revision are you running?
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08:18 meppl good morning
08:18 moritz good morning ;)
08:21 dduncan good early morning
08:21 dduncan and off into the night ...
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08:23 meppl good morning moritz and dduncan
08:23 meppl however
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08:54 thoughtpolice hm. i need to find a good web framework. I want to code a new blog, with as little hassle as possible.
08:55 Aankhen`` Tried Catalyst yet? ;-)
08:55 thoughtpolice no. it's on a todo list. primarily I want something simple.
08:55 thoughtpolice camping looks nice for example.
08:55 Tene thoughtpolice: also check out jifty
08:55 Aankhen`` Heh.
08:57 moritz thoughtpolice: catalyst is not that hard
08:58 moritz thoughtpolice: or you could try maypole (though I didn't undestand that very well)
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08:58 thoughtpolice as long as it's not PHP, it's considerable
08:59 Aankhen`` Heh.
08:59 thoughtpolice i mean, I'd use a blogging system written in it; I just don't want to -write- it.
08:59 Aankhen`` Awww.
09:00 Aankhen`` MT or WordPress are probably your only options.
09:00 Aankhen`` Or, hey, you could try Vox.
09:00 Aankhen`` Though I don't know much about it other than a few people who use it.
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09:01 thoughtpolice well mainly I just want to write a small 'microblog' for myself. drupal is taking care of my site quite nicely; but drupal is kind of 'big' for just a simple blog, y'know?
09:02 thoughtpolice which is why I was looking at camping
09:03 thoughtpolice primarily some place where I can write stuff and put my code up; I mean, that's pretty much what I use my site for now anyway
09:03 thoughtpolice if I don't find anything else I'll have to give camping a shot and see if I can get it on my site.
09:04 thoughtpolice which is probably what will happen once I get my laziness up to actually write something in it.
09:07 lumi thoughtpolice: camping?
09:14 lumi Ah. The secret codeword is "ruby"
09:14 Tene thoughtpolice: looked at blosxom?
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09:17 thoughtpolice Tene: I heard about it a while back
09:17 thoughtpolice my friend actually wrote a small blogging system based on it.
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09:20 thoughtpolice Tene: now that you mention it, it might simply be worth using
09:20 thoughtpolice :) Tene++
09:20 Tene thoughtpolice: I express no opinions on blosxom; I'm just peripherally aware of it.
09:21 thoughtpolice i'll have to check it out
09:22 thoughtpolice but it's simple so that's instant qualification for getting examined in my case.
09:23 * Tene nods.
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09:48 renormalist Which Haskell books do the Pugs friends suggest?
09:50 moritz "how to rewire your brain - a guide in 12 sections" or something *SCNR*
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10:16 rindolf obvio171: you're bouncing.
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10:20 moritz @tell fglock the html version of the kp6 roadmap had 127 hits in the last 12 hours - people are reading your blog post ;)
10:20 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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10:37 moritz wow, I just read that movable types will be open sourced this year...
10:37 moritz finally a decent, mature, non-overkill open source blogging system
10:38 moritz at least I couldn't find one before ;)
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12:02 fglock moritz: nice :)
12:02 lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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12:43 Limbic_Region salutations all
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12:44 renormalist I missed possible haskell book recommendations I asked for a few hours ago, due to a network disconnect. Were there any suggestions? And what was the url of the irc log?
12:45 moritz renormalist: http://irc.pugscode.org/ gets you there, but iirc there were none :(
12:45 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-05
12:45 Limbic_Region the IRC log can be found from pugscode.org (along with many other useful pugs related links)
12:46 Limbic_Region additionally, you could google perl6 irc log which turns up another log (which is searchable)
12:47 Limbic_Region finally, haskell.org has book recommendations as well as free tutorials and what not
12:47 Limbic_Region finally, haskell.org has book recommendations as well as free tutorials and what not
12:47 Limbic_Region grrr I hate this client
12:47 b_jonas the cgi one?
12:48 Limbic_Region well, the combination of IE, corporate proxy & firewall, and CGI:IRC which is hosted on another continent
12:50 b_jonas oh, IE too
12:52 b_jonas I remember when I wrote a kludge for links to be able to follow a specific type of javascript link on a site that opened a page in a window
12:52 b_jonas (links didn't have javascript at that time)
12:54 * Limbic_Region wanders off
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13:17 ron__ ?eval say 'running'
13:19 moritz OUTPUT[runningN/L] Bool::True
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13:41 avar http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Per​l-Novice-Professional/dp/1590598334 # Anyone here read this?
13:41 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/ysvvda
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14:10 renormalist Is there an overview about which of the Pugs authors practice Haskell  (and are not Audrey? :-) I'm just wondering whether it is possible to get in contact with the Pugs implementation in any way and don't know where to start. First learn Haskell (how much of it?), then Parsec? Then what? Therefore I'm also interested in what Haskell books the Pugs programmers suggest, not the Haskell.org people. On the other side maybe it's the same subset ...
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14:10 skyde hello
14:13 avar renormalist: there's a list of suggested reading material in the root dir of the repos
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14:29 xinming renormalist: I'd suggest you first checkout the pugs repository, and read 'READTHEM' 'READTOO' first.
14:30 xinming renormalist: I also will tell you. please don't think It's an easy task. Audreyt have an alien brain which we as normal people can hardly catch up... :-)
14:35 renormalist avar, xinming: puh, I never noted the READTHEM list. Exactly what I wanted. But way too much. :-/ I indeed thought it would be easier. Nevermind, I won't match with alien brains.
14:42 xinming Most people always under estimate what the talent people do, I also had the similiar idea as yours, But after I first read the haskell tutorial, I gave up. >_<
14:43 xinming there are still too much things to learn
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15:13 pmurias renormalist: reading all the books in READTHEM is not nessesary :)
15:18 pmurias the haskell wikibooks are great if you want a particular topic clearly explained
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16:42 Qjimbo man I hope moritz comes online later =p
16:42 * moritz is online now
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16:51 Qjimbo yay moritz!
16:51 Qjimbo I didn'T see you in the user list, I'm retarded
16:51 moritz Qjimbo: does the bot log as it should?
16:51 Qjimbo yep that part is fine
16:51 Qjimbo however
16:51 Qjimbo the irc log viewer script doesn't work as anything other than root
16:52 Qjimbo I get these odd errors
16:52 Qjimbo [Tue Jun 05 12:51:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] /bin/pwd:
16:52 Qjimbo [Tue Jun 05 12:51:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] cannot open directory `../../..'
16:52 Qjimbo [Tue Jun 05 12:51:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] : Permission denied
16:53 moritz Qjimbo: what are you running? apache2? on which OS?
16:53 Qjimbo yeah apache2 on gentoo
16:53 moritz with selinux enabled?
16:54 Qjimbo ...don't know
16:54 Qjimbo how can I see?
16:55 moritz I don't know, I'm not a gentoo fanboy ;)
16:55 Qjimbo lol me neither, I was just recommended it =p
16:55 moritz what happens when you run "perl out.pl" directly frome the command line?
16:56 Qjimbo <h1>Software error:</h1>
16:56 Qjimbo <pre>Can't locate File/Slurp.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.8/i686-linux /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/i686-linux /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.8/i686-linux /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at out.pl line 12.
16:56 Qjimbo BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at out.pl line 12.
16:56 Qjimbo </pre>
16:56 Qjimbo <p>
16:56 moritz ok, you need to install File::Slurp
16:57 Qjimbo ok installing
16:57 moritz I should mention that as a depency ;)
16:58 Qjimbo well it works now
16:58 Qjimbo though only as root
16:59 moritz what are the permissions of ../../.. ?
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17:00 riffraff hi
17:00 moritz hi riffraff ;)
17:00 Qjimbo it's /home/
17:00 moritz wtf?
17:00 Qjimbo so yeah the apache user wouldn't be able to see it
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17:00 Qjimbo before it was complaining about ../.. before I changed the chmod
17:00 moritz aren't you somwhere in /var/www/ ?
17:00 Qjimbo nope
17:00 moritz you should be!
17:00 Qjimbo I don'T have it set up like that
17:01 Qjimbo though I can move it there and set up a vhost I guess
17:01 moritz so are you in ~/public_html/ or something?
17:01 Qjimbo yeah
17:02 moritz you probably need to make /home/ readable+executable to user 'www' or whatever apache runs as
17:02 Qjimbo how would I do that?
17:02 moritz the sledge hammer method would be "chmod a+rx /home/" as root
17:03 moritz but tell nobody I proposed that ;)
17:03 Qjimbo it works!
17:03 moritz YaY
17:04 Qjimbo thanks =D
17:04 moritz you're welcome
17:05 moritz I'm currently working on making http://moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs/ a bit more usefull ;)
17:05 lambdabot Title: Index of POD files in pugs repository
17:05 moritz anyway, supper &
17:06 Qjimbo now I need to get rid of that moose thing
17:06 moritz edit the templates ;)
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17:07 Qjimbo yeah just have lol
17:07 moritz but why would anybody want to get rid of a moose?
17:07 moritz gaal: can you possibly understand that? *g*
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17:31 Qjimbo moritz: the bot seems to keep reading the bot.conf for channel info, even when I specify different info on the command line
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18:21 moritz @tell Qjimbo if you provide a channel name on the command line you have to escape it ('#channel') because # introduces a comment on the command line
18:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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18:26 * [particle] predicts qjimbo is going to ask how to escape it on the command line :)
18:27 moritz [particle]: that's why I gave the example with single quotes ;)
18:27 moritz [particle]: but I don't know if that's enough ;)
18:27 [particle] yeah, i know :)
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18:29 moritz anyway, user number three ;)
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20:57 moritz if I want to push a list like [[0, 0], [1, 1], [2, 2]...] onto an array @a, is @a.push @@( ^10 Z ^10); the right way to do it?
20:58 moritz sorry, @a.push: ...
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21:09 TimToady eventually, but @@ isn't implemented
21:11 moritz I know :(
21:13 TimToady at least the parens won't be necessary, since @@ is now a normal listop
21:13 TimToady and Z binds tighter
21:13 TimToady so @a.push: @@ ^10 Z ^10 should work
21:14 moritz ok, thanks
21:14 TimToady or perhaps more readably:
21:14 TimToady so @a.push: slice ^10 Z ^10 should work
21:15 [particle] so @@ looks like slices of a cinnamon roll, or sushi?
21:15 PerlJam Z binds tighter?
21:15 TimToady list prefix is looser than list infix for several months now
21:15 moritz actually it just looks like swearing in comics ;)
21:15 PerlJam It's weird for me to think of that in light of the precedences of &&/and  ||/or
21:15 TimToady @@ is supposed to remind you of aa lava, which comes in chunks
21:16 [particle] @@ destroyed my boots last december
21:17 [particle] http://picasaweb.google.com/jerry.gay​/Hawaii2006/photo#5006033624029043378
21:17 lambdabot Title: Picasa Web Albums - jerry gay - Hawaii 2006, http://tinyurl.com/ysggyk
21:19 TimToady [particle]: to you @@ should look like an H₂ molecule...
21:19 [particle] :)
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21:41 polettix is Z an abbreviation for zip?
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21:41 riffraff it is an inifix operator for zip
21:41 riffraff a Z b
21:42 polettix ah I see
21:43 polettix ¥ would have been better ;)
21:45 moritz I would have liked ZIP
21:45 moritz it's not that much to type, and pretty obvious what it does
21:45 polettix I'm not particularly fond of the single Z letter as well
21:46 [particle] Y? ;)
21:46 polettix [particle]: why? :D
21:51 japhb polettix: the Yen sign was used for a while, then was replaced
21:51 [particle] since it was the only unicode operator
21:51 [particle] iirc
21:51 japhb French quotes still exist ...
21:51 polettix it was cool anyway
21:52 [particle] ah, maybe Z is just the ascii alternative
21:52 [particle] haven't read that spec in a long time
21:52 polettix japhb: but they can be replaced with << and >> IIRC
21:52 [particle] probably four internet years or so
21:52 japhb polettix: nodnod
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22:04 thoughtpolice good afternoon.
22:04 moritz good evening ;)
22:05 thoughtpolice :o s'only 5:00pm where I am.
22:05 thoughtpolice (CST)
22:08 moritz it's 11pm here (GMT+1)
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22:14 Limbic_Region salutatoins all
22:16 dduncan its 3:16pm here
22:17 polettix 0:17am in Italy
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22:18 polettix (or is it 12:17pm?)
22:19 TimToady polettix: Z is a picture of the row-major visitation order
22:20 TimToady and we thought Y would confuse functional programmers, who think it's the Y combinator...
22:20 TimToady (it's also short for "zip")
22:20 TimToady 0017 would be 12:17am
22:20 dduncan and certainly an improvement in that regard
22:21 polettix TimToady: this is all correct, just thinking it would be cool
22:21 polettix TimToady: anyway, I don't particularly like using a single letter as an operator
22:21 moritz what about a haskell'ish `$func` syntax for infixing $func?
22:21 moritz we don't have to use backticks though
22:21 polettix TimToady: but it probably boils down to getting used to it (or getting not to use it :)
22:22 moritz but [`zip`] would look weird
22:22 TimToady `foo` wouldn't tell you what precedence it should be
22:22 PerlJam polettix: for some reason I keep seeing your nick as polemix
22:22 moritz TimToady: right
22:22 polettix rotfl
22:22 polettix PerlJam++
22:25 polettix PerlJam: anyway, I swear that it's only a casual feedback, no implied flaming :)
22:26 PerlJam yeah, you aren't really being that agressive, but my brain didn't seem to care :)
22:27 polettix I'm actually considering using it as a replacement nick, it's really making me laugh
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22:29 PerlJam laughter is always good
22:29 PerlJam (unless it's not, but usually that's more of a cackle than a laugh  ;)
22:30 moritz svnbot6 and evalbot are missing :(
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22:33 sparvu hey all
22:34 sparvu anyone any ideas about pugs on Solaris 10 x86 or SPARC ?
22:34 sparvu I have got the ghc package for Solaris x86 but get problems when configuring pugs
22:34 [particle] check smoke.pugscode.org for reports
22:35 moritz sparvu: "problems" is not very specific ;)
22:36 sparvu moritz: yeah, true. a sec to pastebin the results
22:38 sparvu pastebin.com seems not worink. Basically I have ghc in place, perl 5.8.8 in place
22:38 sparvu Im trying to ./configure Pugs after I svn co the pugs source code
22:38 sparvu and get these:
22:38 sparvu d: fatal: symbol `s44W_info' in file /export/home/sparvu/ghc/lib/ghc-​6.6.1/libHSCabal.a(Utils__90.o): section [1] .text: size 1042: symbol (address 0x400, size 20) lies outside of containing section
22:39 thoughtpolice you've run the makefile.pl right?
22:39 polettix is it wrong that I never did ./configure but used perl Makefile.PL?
22:39 sparvu hmmm, I think I did a: configure Pugs from start
22:39 thoughtpolice try perl Makefile.PL
22:40 thoughtpolice then run a make
22:40 sparvu do I need to clean first ?
22:40 thoughtpolice i would go ahead and do so
22:40 moritz eh, ./configure just calls perl Makefile.PL ;-)
22:41 sparvu same thing when I ran: perl Makefile.PL
22:41 Tene Hmm.  Pugs is currently segfaulting for me.
22:41 * Tene reqbuilds everything from scratch.
22:41 sparvu Just curious: could be something to dow with ghc and static libraries ?
22:42 sparvu that I have no clue. Well at the moment Im trying to get pugs on Solaris 10 working
22:42 sparvu I will keep you posted about results
22:43 moritz sparvu: perhaps you could google for Cabal+Solaris issues
22:43 sparvu moritz: thx, I will do that
22:43 moritz just a guess though
22:44 thoughtpolice just from the err above it pretty much means that the Cabal static lib has a symbol outside of .text where it should be.
22:44 thoughtpolice how the hell that would happen, I'm not totally sure. especially if you built 6.6.1.
22:44 sparvu Solaris ld != GNU ld. Could this be a problem ?
22:44 thoughtpolice might be.
22:45 sparvu thx, I will think about it.
22:45 thoughtpolice get some gnu tools and configure pugs to build with them rather than your default tools; it could solve your problem
22:46 sparvu yeah, I could try that
22:48 thoughtpolice has anybody taken the liberty to put haddock documentation of pugs up? I've noticed haddock-esque comments throughout the source.
22:53 moritz sleep&
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22:54 sparvu thanks for suggestions. I will post the same question on opensolaris.org - I hope somebody else is interested about Perl6/Solaris
22:54 sparvu 'night everyone
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23:00 thoughtpolice later
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