Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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03:01 dduncan it appears that nntp.perl.org has been down for the last few hours
03:02 dduncan for that matter, search.cpan.org is also down
03:03 [particle] see log.perl.org
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03:08 dduncan looking ...
03:09 dduncan okay ...
03:10 dduncan and I didn't know that server exists ... count it as learning something new
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04:28 prism I wonder
04:28 prism actually I dont
04:29 * prism wanders off
04:31 allbery_b you wonder as you wander?
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06:11 gummybearx hi, i have a question:
06:12 gummybearx is the new method invocation operator going to replace '->' or merely supplement it?
06:12 revdiablo Replace
06:13 gummybearx argh. ok, thanks
06:13 revdiablo Why argh?
06:13 gummybearx i kinda liked '->' tho. it was an eccentricity....
06:14 gummybearx made perl unique.
06:14 * Caelum likes -> too
06:14 Caelum but . is more standard and all that
06:14 gummybearx yeah, but we dont want to be like java, do we?
06:15 revdiablo I always thought Perl used -> to look similar to C structs, or maybe that was just a coincidence
06:15 revdiablo Though . is easier to type and fewer characters, so I don't really mind the change
06:15 gummybearx well, i dk about c, but at first i thought '->' was crazy talk, coming from java
06:15 dduncan -> never made Perl unique, it copied C
06:16 dduncan and now . copies other things
06:16 revdiablo gummybearx: It would take a lot more than syntax to make perl "be like" java in any significant way =)
06:16 dduncan practically speaking, the . is much better huffmanizing than ->
06:16 gummybearx weell, yes
06:17 dduncan you invoke methods a lot, and . doesn't require using the shift key like -> does
06:17 gummybearx thats true. strains my frail wrists
06:17 revdiablo It's one keypress vs three
06:18 gummybearx its prolly just change.... hard to get used to
06:19 gummybearx if . is more common, then why has the foreach loop moved away from for my $x (@a) {}?
06:19 revdiablo What?
06:20 dduncan because for @foo -> $elem {} is much nicer
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06:21 dduncan way to do foreach
06:21 gummybearx well.... it isnt as intuitive as saying foreach thing in bucket
06:21 revdiablo dduncan++ # Deciphering
06:21 dduncan besides, where is . used for foreaches?
06:21 gummybearx seperate thought
06:21 dduncan even in Perl 5, the recommended spelling of 'foreach' is 'for'
06:21 gummybearx it isnt, two seperate thoughts
06:21 dduncan so in Perl 5, one should say "for my $elem (@list) {}"
06:22 revdiablo gummybearx: I can't imagine many people successfully rely on intuition to learn a programming language
06:22 gummybearx i meant as a human would interpret the loop, in english
06:22 dduncan for humans, the order works either way ...
06:22 dduncan its "for each elem in list" vs "for each list elem"
06:23 dduncan those being the perl 5 and 6 directions respectively
06:23 gummybearx i suppose. like i said. teething.
06:23 dduncan personally, I like nearly or entirely everything that perl 6 changed from perl 5, and perl 5 is otherwise my favorite programming language
06:23 revdiablo gummybearx: You don't think the visual of the arrow pointing into the variable is intuitive?
06:24 revdiablo dduncan: Yeah, it is a pleasure to write Perl 6 code
06:24 revdiablo It feels just like I would imagine Perl done better
06:24 dduncan uh-hu
06:24 gummybearx revdiablo, i like the arrow, it makes you think $thing is "emerging" from list
06:26 gummybearx but also reminiscent of a method invocation, just at a glance.... at least an old 5 invocation
06:26 revdiablo You can't invoke a method on an array in perl 5 ;)
06:27 gummybearx yea, i know, but if you were glancing over pages of code, it would be a "huh?" moment
06:27 gummybearx but i digress
06:27 revdiablo I don't think that reaction would last very long after learning Perl 6
06:27 gummybearx haha, yes
06:28 Caelum revdiablo: you can sorta with Autobox
06:28 revdiablo Caelum: Quiet you!
06:28 Caelum hehe
06:28 gummybearx i agree with dduncan tho, perl has quickly become my favorite language
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06:32 gummybearx what is the date of release perl 6?
06:34 gummybearx s/date/ballpark date/
06:35 revdiablo I think the official answer is "Eventually"
06:35 revdiablo Or, as they like to say, "by Christmas"
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06:37 gummybearx just in time for the holiday buying season!
06:45 gummybearx cya all
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08:00 gaal @tell Limbic_Region hmmm, what revision do you mean by "pad refactor"? r15828 was committed and immediately reverted in r15829. Could you please try again with HEAD and a clean build?
08:00 lambdabot Consider it noted.
08:01 meppl good morning
08:02 gaal @tell Limbic_Region If that doesn't work, tracking back would be useful.
08:02 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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08:57 sparvu morning
08:57 unobe evening :-)
08:58 moritz mornin!
08:59 unobe well, yeah, technically for me too, just really early morning
08:59 sparvu Im working to get pugs on Solaris 10,11 ready. Looks a problem with ld(1) linker found in Solaris 11.
08:59 sparvu Solaris 10 should be fine. Im testing these things now
09:00 moritz sparvu++ # portability
09:00 sparvu :)
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11:46 fmerges hi
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12:22 moritz hi
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12:31 riffraff hi everyone
12:32 thoughtpolice hey
12:34 moritz thoughtpolice: I wrote an email to the perl webmaster(s) suggesting to add your blog to the planetsix.perl.org feed
12:35 moritz no response 'til now
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12:36 thoughtpolice moritz: thanks :)
12:37 moritz thoughtpolice: no problem... it would allow me to shorten my RSS list ;)
12:37 thoughtpolice nice :)
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13:18 lumi gaal: What's your borkage? Need more eyes?
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13:24 gaal lumi: the problem is that something probably still in ruleExp is committing to <-, so throws an unexpected ">".
13:24 gaal Limbic_Region: you never get @tells, apparently
13:24 gaal lumi: patch coming up, sec
13:25 lumi gaal: I have to go now actually, I have this thing in Tel Aviv
13:25 gaal heh ok
13:25 gaal no rush
13:25 gaal on either moose
13:26 gaal unless you're premeeting with S or something
13:26 lumi Any particular S? I'm not
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13:32 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "rw iterator patch wip" (128 lines, 5.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/25445
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13:33 gaal so with the patch (which is ugly; still thinking of ways to avoid EEK there) <-> gives an "Unexpected '>'" parsefail
13:33 gaal but I gotta go. moose &
13:34 Limbic_Region no tells?
13:34 lambdabot Limbic_Region: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:34 Limbic_Region @messages
13:34 lambdabot gaal said 5h 33m 10s ago: hmmm, what revision do you mean by "pad refactor"? r15828 was committed and immediately reverted in r15829. Could you please try again with HEAD and a clean build?
13:34 lambdabot gaal said 5h 32m 2s ago: If that doesn't work, tracking back would be useful.
13:34 Limbic_Region @tell gaal I have been too busy with work to pay much attention to #perl6  It isn't that important ATM
13:34 lambdabot Consider it noted.
13:34 Limbic_Region @tell gaal but thanks
13:34 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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14:48 ashleyb @tell fglock: P::C::R doesn't play nice for me when using 'perl -d:Trace' I often get "Attempt to free unreferenced scalar: SV 0x96af260, Perl interpreter: 0x814e008 at /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.4/Pugs/Runtime/Regex.pm line 88." type errors.
14:48 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:49 ashleyb @tell fglock however that error will not show up if not in the debugger -- a hiesenbug
14:49 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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14:50 moritz perl 5.8.4... that's a bit old, isn't it?
14:51 moritz 2004-Apr-21 says perlhist - even debian has a never one ;)
14:51 ashleyb it's debian current
14:52 moritz apt-cache policy perl
14:52 moritz *** 5.8.8-7 0
14:52 moritz        500 ftp://ftp2.de.debian.org etch/main Packages
14:52 moritz and etch == stable atm
14:53 ashleyb hmmm
14:53 ashleyb interesting
14:54 moritz maybe an old version of a self installed module?
14:54 ashleyb my PCR got installed under those dirs but the debian is using 5.8.8
14:54 moritz weird
14:54 moritz how are installing? via cpan?
14:54 ashleyb cause I installed PCR via cpan before the last debian update
14:54 moritz I use dh-make-perl most of the time, works like a charm
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15:21 * c9s_ tes test
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16:30 sparvu hey
16:30 moritz hi sparvu ;)
16:30 sparvu I identified the problem with pugs and Solaris. Basically Im building now pugs on Solaris 10
16:31 sparvu But on Solaris 11(aka Nevada, the next version of Solaris) the linker has been changed
16:31 sparvu so the new ld(1) has introduced some extra checks which led to the mentioned errors
16:31 moritz any workaround?
16:32 sparvu Basically: if somebody will want to have pugs on Solaris, they must be on S10, not on Nevada
16:32 sparvu At the moment I have escalated this with Sun's linker group
16:32 sparvu they are looking into. Plus the ghc maintainer of Solaris 10 package
16:32 moritz cool, sparvu++
16:32 sparvu People are very commited to make things work :)
16:33 moritz "things" seems to a good make target ;)
16:34 sparvu yeah, the process of getting pugs running on Solaris is not very dirty but require some step. I will document soon on my site and post instructions
16:34 sparvu I will first test couple of days and see if I can get as well this to work on S11
16:34 sparvu I will keep you informed
16:34 sparvu thanks all for help
16:35 moritz it would be greate if you could contribute a section to the INSTALL file
16:42 sparvu will do that later. I need to rerun the procedure several times - make sure everything is ok
16:42 moritz ok
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16:55 moritz pugs currently has a builtin regex <number> that matches one digit
16:55 moritz ?eval "123" ~~ m/<number>/
16:55 evalbot_r16647 changed the nick to evalbot_r16650
16:55 evalbot_r16650 *** Cannot parse regex: <number>␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
16:55 moritz oh no, my fault
16:56 moritz it matches the whole string on my maschine
16:56 moritz evalbot-- # problem with character classes
16:58 moritz but I'd expect <number> to match any (real) number, not just \d+
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17:45 obra Hey pugs hackers
17:47 qmole hey jesse
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18:10 gaal rehi
18:10 lambdabot gaal: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:11 gaal L~R: ack.
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18:50 nothingmuch moosemoose
18:51 moritz ?eval "moose" x 3
18:52 evalbot_r16650 "moosemoosemoose"
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20:27 rindolf Hi all.
20:27 moritz hi rindolf
20:27 rindolf Quick question - if ($$l !~ m{\G([^\<\[\]\&]*)}gms) - why does it sometimes fail to match.
20:27 rindolf moritz: hi.
20:28 moritz are you talking p5?
20:29 rindolf moritz: yes, Perl 5.
20:29 moritz hm, seems like a bug to me
20:29 moritz anything* should always match
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20:34 Tene rindolf: can you provide an example of a non-matching string?
20:38 rindolf Tene: wait a sec.
20:39 moritz '[' doesn't match
20:39 moritz sorry, does match... I missed the !~
20:40 rindolf perl -e 'my $s = "[<hello>]" ; my $l = \$s; $$l =~ m{^\[}g; if (! $$l =~ m{\G([^\<]*)}) { die "Foo"; }'
20:42 rindolf I mean I cannot reproduce it with perl -e 'my $s = "[<hello>]" ; my $l = \$s; $$l =~ m{^\[}g ; if ($$l !~ m{\G([^\<]*)}) { die "Foo"; }'
20:42 rindolf Maybe it's a heisenbug.
20:43 moritz does it occur without the referencing/dereferencing thingy?
20:44 moritz maybe pos doesn't like references?
20:44 moritz perl -wle 'my $s = "[<hello>]"; $s =~ m{^\[}g; die "Foo" if $s !~ m{\G([^\<]*)}';
20:45 moritz does not die
20:45 Tene rindolf: you don't need to escape < in a character class
20:45 rindolf Tene: I know.
20:45 Tene So why are you?
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20:58 rindolf This makes no sense.
20:59 rindolf Tene: to be on the safe side.
20:59 rindolf Tene: in Perl 6 they have a meaning.
20:59 rindolf The exact same string with the same expression now succeeds.
20:59 rindolf same pos($$l) too.
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