Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:06 sfullenwider joined #perl6
00:09 sfullenwider how far away is perl6 to production?
00:09 moritz one, two years perhaps
00:10 moritz depends on your notioin of "production"
00:11 Tene I've used it to produce things several months ago.
00:11 moritz evalbot and svnbot are "producing" things as well ;)
00:13 Tene ?eval "a small red dog"
00:13 evalbot_r16653 "a small red dog"
00:13 Tene evalbot just produced a small red dog!
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00:17 offby1 can we keep it?  Can we?
00:23 TimToady you'll have to take better care of it than you did the camel...
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01:12 Tene TimToady: I reinstalled F7 and pugs runs fine now, btw.
01:24 TimToady yeah, saw that earlier, but too busy writing a talk to respond then...
01:24 TimToady but I don't really want to trash my current install...
01:25 TimToady I keep thinking there's some subset I can delete and reinstall
01:26 * Tene nods.
01:26 Tene However, after I installed, I added a bunch of packages with the 'Add/Remove Software' tool instead of just yum, and it failed to install dependencies for many of the packages installed, so beware.
01:27 TimToady thanks
01:27 silug Tene: did it just fail to download the packages?  usually you can just tell it to try again...
01:28 silug <- fedora developer
01:29 TimToady silug: I upgraded my laptop to F7, and now gnome always hangs coming up, so limping along on kde.  also, if I click on Languages on the greeter it immediately crashes.  any ideas?
01:30 Tene silug: It claimed to have completed successfully, so I didn't bother to check.  Later, when trying to use applications, they would complain about missing deps.
01:30 Tene after rpm -e and isntall via yum, everything worked fine.
01:30 silug other people have told me about the gnome hangs.  the best guess i've heard is that they are dns-related.
01:30 silug i'm a kde user, so i'm the wrong one to ask.  :)
01:31 silug <- not terribly helpful fedora developer
01:31 silug Tene: weird.  pirut is just a front-end to yum, so the behavior should have been identical.
01:31 TimToady seems related to scim to me, maybe.
01:31 TimToady can't bring up scim under kde either.
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01:32 TimToady which is why I haven't been typing much Japanese here lately...
01:33 weinigLap joined #perl6
01:33 TimToady so I'm guessing that F7's overall internationalization is less than robust under upgrade, at the moment.  quite possibly a complete reinstall would work, but I only have one major partition on my laptop.
01:34 silug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bu​gzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=243234 may be the problem.
01:36 silug imho f7 is one of the rougher fedora releases so far...  the core/extras merge was way more painful than ever anticipated.
01:38 TimToady heh, the page with the fix is entirely in Japanese.  I guess I deserve that... :)
01:38 silug and, for the record, since i'm extremely monolingual, i know almost nothing about scim
01:39 TimToady but from the rest of the bug report, it definitely seems like the problem doesn't affect fresh installs, only upgrades
01:39 SamB scim is also usable for maths input...
01:39 SamB or would be if unicode characters were all it took
01:40 silug "rm -rf /tmp/gconfd-* /tmp/scim-panel-socket-*" isn't the fix?
01:43 TimToady oh, I didn't see the translation, just followed the link
01:45 silug babelfish does a reasonable job translating that page.  i'm impressed.
01:45 TimToady well, definitely looks like it got further, but will have to restart X
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01:51 silug i wonder if https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bu​gzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=243563 is related at all
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01:54 * silug wanders off to find some dinner
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02:17 TimToady やった!ありがとうございます。
02:18 TimToady but my Language button in the greeter still crashes X.
02:19 TimToady silug: but yes, the other one was related too.
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02:23 TimToady I'm definitely in the category of person who has an english locale but wants a asian input method.
02:23 TimToady *an
02:25 amnesiac TimToady, Watashi wa tamago-desu!!!
02:25 amnesiac eewww.. no.. egg no :P
02:29 TimToady hmm, gnome hung again... :(
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07:32 meppl good morning
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08:56 dduncan well, I've basically just proven that a lot of web servers out there are refusing traffic just because the client's user agent says it is LWP ... but self-identifying as something else works fine
08:57 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
08:57 dduncan this adds a bother if I want to test now and then that links in a web site list are still valid, automatically
08:57 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
08:57 dduncan at least, it means I can't use LWP::Simple
09:02 Tene dduncan: wow.
09:02 gaal dduncan: a quick peek suggets you can override _init_ua and get around that.
09:02 dduncan mind you, I got other benefits from switching to the slightly more complicated LWP::UserAgent
09:03 dduncan yes, I already worked out the solution
09:03 dduncan just set $ua->agent() to something else
09:03 dduncan and it worked
09:03 Tene Set it to "Ell Double-You Pee"
09:03 dduncan oh, your suggestion was how to get LWP::Simple itself to work?
09:04 gaal It would have been great if LWP::Simple had called "$ua->agent( $class->get_default_agent )" or something similar
09:04 dduncan well, no matter, I like the additional benefits of switching
09:04 gaal but the shotgun method is *{"LWP::Simple::_init_ua"} = sub {...}
09:05 dduncan one moment ...
09:06 Aankhen`` $ua->agent('gaal');
09:06 Aankhen`` Mwahaahahahahaahaaha.
09:07 dduncan the init-ua thing wouldn't have helped in my situation
09:07 dduncan but just using UA instead did
09:08 gaal $ua->agent('sekkrit')
09:08 Tene $ua->agent('møøse');
09:08 dduncan see, the way I was using it before, LWP::Simple::get wouldn't have been using an actual $ua behind the scenes, so the init_ua thing would never be invoked
09:08 gaal actually you should do agentname/version
09:09 gaal 'mse/1.øø'
09:09 * Tene laughs.
09:09 dduncan it was using _trivial_http_get , which hardcodes everything
09:09 gaal ouch
09:09 gaal ::Simple modules are
09:10 dduncan the downside of using the full UserAgent is extra CPAN prereqs ... HTML-Parser and HTMl-Tagset
09:10 gaal { package DWIM::Simple; sub AUTOLOAD { die "not supported" } }
09:10 dduncan which I didn't have to install before
09:10 dduncan the LWP package included both Simple and UserAgent, so both were already installed anyway
09:10 * Tene was going to make a joke about that statement being produced by gaal::Simple while waiting for the continuation.
09:10 dduncan that is, installing simple installed the other
09:13 gaal good thing cpan.org accepts LWP::Simple UAs...
09:13 dduncan well, the majority of urls in my database that I tried did accept LWP::Simple ... just a few hundred out of about 20-thousand didn't
09:14 dduncan so maybe 1-2% or so are the problem
09:14 dduncan still, that's a large number
09:15 Tene dduncan: what % by host instead of url?  What market segment do these hosts represent?  Etc.
09:16 dduncan the web addrs are businesses and/or other organizations that provide amenities to tourists
09:16 dduncan its a tourism related website
09:16 dduncan that I'm working on for my $job
09:17 dduncan the database was seeded a few years ago by other people
09:17 Tene 'kay
09:17 dduncan so for the most part, every url is a different host
09:17 dduncan maybe that's what you wanted to know
09:18 Tene It is.
09:21 dduncan on a tangent, today is probably the first time I ever used alarm() in a program ... in this case, to timeout a page fetch ... done before the move to UA ... some pages simply hung Simple ... not sure if this is still necessary, as I also give UA a timeout value
09:21 dduncan currently, I give it 30s, and have my own alarm for 40s
09:27 dduncan on an unrelated matter, I note an interesting coincidence that both the GPLv3 (date announced 2 weeks ago) and the iPhone (date announced today) are both planned to be released on the same day, June 29th
09:32 * gaal is disappointed to find you can't tie package symtable hashes in Perl 5
09:33 Aankhen`` Heh.
09:33 Aankhen`` sub FETCH { if (rand(10) % 2) { return "Sorry, no symbols for you today."; } }
09:34 Aankhen`` Er, int(rand(10))
09:34 gaal doesn't work :(
09:34 gaal doesn't work either :)
09:34 Aankhen`` Pah.
09:35 Aankhen`` A mere trifle.
09:35 dduncan so it seems the end result was about 600 web addrs out of 23000 or so were rejecting traffic based on 'lwp' identifier
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09:35 dduncan so about 2-3%
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11:34 Apple ���ʴ�
11:34 Tene Hello!
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16:50 coke Is the p6 PM lying about?
16:52 wolverian PM?
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16:56 coke changed the nick to Coke
16:56 Coke PM is project manager
16:57 wolverian we have one? :)
17:01 [particle1 obra: ping
17:01 [particle1 changed the nick to [particle]
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17:04 wolverian (also, which p6?)
17:05 fglock [particle]: the problem pmichaud was talking about was:
17:05 lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:05 fglock token xyz { <foo> | <bar> }; eval " token foo { abc }; /<xyz>/ "
17:05 fglock right?
17:06 [particle] i think so
17:06 fglock I meant to compile that to:
17:07 fglock token xyz { <foo> | <bar> }; eval " my token xyz { <foo> | <bar> }; token foo { abc }; /<xyz>/ "
17:07 fglock using an AST transformation, so that it can be figured out statically
17:08 fglock where the 'my' happens at the appropriate OUTER level
17:08 fglock fixing:
17:08 fglock token xyz { <foo> | <bar> }; eval " my token foo { abc }; /<xyz>/ "
17:09 fglock token xyz { <foo> | <bar> }; eval " my token xyz { <foo> | <bar> }; my token foo { abc }; /<xyz>/ "
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17:10 [particle] fglock: okay, so you need lexical subroutines
17:10 [particle] or, anyway, all rules would be stored in a set of pads
17:11 fglock not sure if methods can be lexical in Perl 6, but I think they can
17:11 [particle] yeah, methods. right.
17:12 fglock non-lexical regexes are static, already
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17:15 fglock in the case of: eval " token foo { abc } "  
17:15 fglock the global 'xyz' is redefined
17:16 fglock which probably requires that you keep the AST around at runtime
17:16 fglock or use tables instead
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17:27 obra pong
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17:38 [particle] obra: coke was looking for you
17:44 Coke obra;hey.
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17:46 obra Coke: what's up?
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19:34 Coke obra: Wondering if you consider parrot a subset of the total perl6 plan. or adjunct. or something. how does parrot fit into your plans, since you're a potential consumer.
19:34 Coke This will help me firm up *my* plans.
19:43 obra Perl 6 on parrot is certainly part of "the perl 6 project"
19:43 obra Parrot is both part of the perl6 project and a bird of another feather.
19:44 obra *waves hands*
19:44 obra how will it impact you? ;)
19:44 Coke well, I have a presentation to give in 2 weeks..
19:44 Coke Other than that? =-)
19:45 Coke Can you include me on any p6 project management stuff as a cc?
19:48 obra It's mostly phone calls right now.
19:48 obra What are you actually looking for?
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19:54 Coke I need to know what you need from parrot. you're one of the main customers.
19:55 obra It's what Patrick needs from Parrot
19:55 Coke so I should just go through patrick then? ... ok.
19:55 obra Patrick is the main consumer of Parrot for Perl 6.
19:55 obra I believe he's about to mail the lists about DFA and regexps
19:56 Coke k. I'll bug him.
19:59 dduncan I may be missing context, but if that exchange wasn't a joke, it didn't make much sense
19:59 * dduncan web backlog ...
20:00 Coke it only had to make sense to me and obra.
20:00 dduncan nothing else in prior backlog
20:01 Coke which part doesn't make sense?
20:01 dduncan something about a person being the main customer
20:01 dduncan but then I may have misread it
20:02 obra dduncan: made perfect sense to me and coke
20:02 dduncan well never mind
20:03 Coke well, parrot's "customers" are the language developers. one of the languages is going to be perl6 - need to make sure parrot supports perl6 - do I talk to the perl6 PM for those requirements? (most of which are there and/or obvious) Turns out, no, I talk to the one guy who's in charge of perl6 specifically on parrot, patrick.
20:03 Coke this is all part of my trying to prepare for parrot 1.0...an dmore importantly, my talk about same in 2 weeks.
20:04 dduncan yup
20:04 [particle] do you think it'll work?
20:04 Coke do I think what will work?
20:05 Coke No, i think we're all doomed. =-)
20:05 [particle] *phew*
20:05 moritz Coke: did you speak to fglock? iirc his miniperl6 project has a PIR emitter, maybe he has some good suggestions
20:07 Coke He's on #parrot. haven't had a full discussion with him yet, though, I think he's coordinating with patrick.
20:07 Coke p6 on parrot, btw, is reaaaaly close to running Test.pm; hopefully that'll open some floodgates for more development.
20:07 Coke Should I complain that there are things in Test.pm that aren't tested in sanity?
20:08 [particle] in pugs current sanity tests?
20:08 [particle] yes.
20:08 [particle] in parrot's old sanity tests? maybe not.
20:08 Coke ok. we are parsing all the 01- tests. however, 'use Test' fail with a syntax error. So, some syntax isn't being testing in 01-sanity.
20:08 Coke [particle]: : I've already resolved that issue to at least last week's version of pugs tests.
20:09 [particle] oh? fab!
20:09 Coke in fact, 'make spectest' in .../perl6 will svn export the pugs tests right there and run them, in case I missed something.
20:09 [particle] coke: it may be the difference between namespace and class
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20:27 svnbot6 r16654 | lwall++ | 1st attempt to whack in block comments
20:30 moritz YaY, svnbot6 is back ;)
20:30 * TimToady curtsies
20:31 Yaakov TimToady: How gentile!
20:31 dduncan svnbot is back
20:32 moritz TimToady++
20:32 Yaakov Err... genteel!
20:32 TimToady that too
20:33 Yaakov Well, you are a gentle genteel gentile.
20:33 Yaakov Generally.
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20:33 spinclad one of the gentry
20:34 Yaakov He is also know for genorosity.
20:34 spinclad true dat
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20:39 spinclad very lazy
20:39 spinclad unlike me
20:39 * TimToady wonders why goy, gaijin and gringo all start with 'g'...
20:39 [particle] honky is a notable exception to the rule
20:40 TimToady off by 1
20:40 TimToady well, it's somewhat after 1, but I must still be off.
20:40 TimToady commuting &
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21:27 japhb TimToady: I suspect the reason for them all starting with 'g' has something to do with why of the 'w' question words, 'how' has it at the end ...
21:27 japhb ;-)
21:35 riffraff wasn't it the "wh" words?
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21:49 ron__ ?eval $::a = 1
21:49 evalbot_r16653 changed the nick to evalbot_r16654
21:49 evalbot_r16654 \1
21:50 ron__ ?eval $a=1
21:50 evalbot_r16654 \1
21:51 ron__ ?eval class Bozzle {has $.a = 2;has $!a = 4;} my $c = Bozzle.new; say $c.a;
21:51 evalbot_r16654 OUTPUT[4␤] Bool::True
21:52 meppl good night
21:54 TimToady ?eval class Bozzle {has $!a = 2; has $.a = 4}; my $c = Bozzle.new; say $c.a;
21:54 evalbot_r16654 OUTPUT[4␤] Bool::True
21:54 TimToady ?eval my $x = 2; my $x = 4; say $x
21:54 evalbot_r16654 OUTPUT[4␤] Bool::True
21:56 TimToady ?eval class Bozzle {has $.a = 2; has $.a = 4}; my $c = Bozzle.new; say $c.a;
21:56 evalbot_r16654 OUTPUT[4␤] Bool::True
21:58 moritz ?eval class B {has $.a = 'a'; has @.a=<b c>;}; my $c = B.new; $c.a
21:58 evalbot_r16654 ["b", "c"]
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22:16 drowned ?eval class Grozzle {has $a;method set_a { $a = 1 }}
22:16 evalbot_r16654 undef
22:17 drowned ?eval class Grozzle {has $a;method set_a { $a = 1 }}; my $b = Grozzle.new; $b.set_a;
22:17 evalbot_r16654 \1
22:18 TimToady ?eval class Grozzle {has $!a; method set_a { $!a = 1 }}; Grozzle.new.set_a
22:18 evalbot_r16654 \1
22:19 TimToady ?eval class Grozzle {has $!a; method set_a { $a = 1 }}; Grozzle.new.set_a
22:19 evalbot_r16654 \1
22:19 TimToady ?eval class Grozzle {has $.a; method set_a { $!a = 1 }}; Grozzle.new.set_a
22:20 evalbot_r16654 \1
22:20 TimToady ?eval class Grozzle {has $.a; method set_a { $!a = 1 }}; $b = Grozzle.new; $b.set_a; say $b.a
22:21 evalbot_r16654 OUTPUT[1␤] Bool::True
22:21 TimToady ?eval class Grozzle {has $.a; method set_a { $a = 1 }}; $b = Grozzle.new; $b.set_a; say $b.a
22:21 evalbot_r16654 OUTPUT[␤] Bool::True
22:21 TimToady ?eval class Grozzle {has $.a; method set_a { $a = 1 }}; $b = Grozzle.new; $b.set_a; say $Grozzle::a
22:21 evalbot_r16654 OUTPUT[1␤] Bool::True
22:22 TimToady (no strict in eval...)
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23:24 Aankh|Clone changed the nick to Aankhen``
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23:26 TimToady hmm, I think svnbot6 and specbot6 need to be reinvited... :/
23:28 Limbic_Region how does that work
23:32 TimToady joined #perl6
23:35 TimToady how does which work?  inviting?  I don't know, except it apparently takes a channel operator, and doesn't seem to be sticky.  that's all I've intuited so far...
23:36 Tene /invite svnbot6
23:36 obvio171_ changed the nick to obvio171
23:37 Tene sends a message to the client saying "you've been invited to suchandsuch channel" and also on many servers overrides a ban, or the channel could be set to invite-only.
23:44 Limbic_Region oh, chan op required - makes sense

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