Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:35 svnbot6 r16669 | lwall++ | Attribute not declared rw needs to write via @!n, not @.n
00:38 Aankhen`` Er, what? :-S
00:38 Aankhen`` Isn't !foo only for private attributes?
00:44 dduncan !foo is how you spell a private attr
00:45 dduncan or invoke a private method
00:45 Aankhen`` <svnbot6> r16669 | lwall++ | Attribute not declared rw needs to write via @!n, not @.n # does that mean even otherwise public but ro attributes are accessed with !foo?
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02:37 dduncan @tell TimToady it seems that S03 does not include the 'before' and 'after' generic ordering operators in its precedence table, where it should be in 'chaining infix' ... they also aren't listed with the reduce identity operators like their less generic familiars ... also, in the "chaining binary precedence" section of S03 that does mention before|after, I think a few C<> in list item names are missing the C, such as <==> and <eq>
02:37 lambdabot Consider it noted.
02:37 lambdabot2 Consider it noted.
02:38 dduncan seen TimToady
02:38 jabbot dduncan: TimToady was seen 8 hours 35 minutes 30 seconds ago
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02:50 PerlJam dduncan: if S03 doesn't include them, then they don't exist  :-)  
02:50 dduncan S03 does include them
02:50 PerlJam I thought it was "looser" and "tighter" or somesuch anyway though.
02:51 dduncan just not consistently
02:51 PerlJam ah, I see.
02:51 dduncan this is a situation where some things should be mentioned in several places, but are actually only in some of those
02:52 dduncan before|after is to <|>|lt|gt etc as ===|eqv are to ==|eq etc
02:52 SamB PerlJam: that librarian pisses me off
02:52 SamB real librarians aren't that stupid
02:53 SamB a robot could be
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03:12 TimToady Aankhen``: every declaration of @.n declares both @.n() the virtual method and @!n the actual private storage for that variable.  If you use the virtual method, and its not declared rw, it's not clear it should be allowed.
03:13 TimToady (as an lvalue)
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04:04 Aankhen`` TimToady: Ah.
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04:19 svnbot6 r16670 | lwall++ | "for @foo -> my $a {...}" doesn't need the "my"
04:30 dduncan ping TimToady
04:30 dduncan I had used @tell, but the bots subsequently left and didn't tell you
04:30 dduncan see irc backlog a few hours
04:30 dduncan re before|after ops
04:37 TimToady the prec table itself is only meant to be representative, but yes, there are holes in the rest of S3
04:49 dduncan ack
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05:43 Tene ?eval ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
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05:46 meppl good morning
05:46 Tene Sure is!
05:47 meppl good morning
05:47 meppl good morning tene
05:47 meppl Tene, ah, its just the wish
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11:52 leo_ audreyt: ping
11:52 lambdabot leo_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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12:13 thoughtp1lice morning. :)
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12:46 moritz hi thoughtpolice ;)
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12:50 aharoni rindolf?
12:50 rindolf Hi aharoni
12:50 aharoni oh yeah
12:50 rindolf aharoni: are you Amir Aharoni?
12:50 aharoni that's right
12:50 rindolf aharoni: I'm Shlomi Fish.
12:50 aharoni i finally made IRC work
12:50 rindolf aharoni: ah nice.
12:50 aharoni i know
12:50 rindolf aharoni: you should register your nick.
12:50 aharoni i did
12:50 rindolf aharoni: OK.
12:51 rindolf aharoni: what's up?
12:52 aharoni i've been excited about perl6 / pugs / and all that for quite long
12:52 aharoni and i can't connect to IRC through my usual ISP (HUJI)
12:52 rindolf aharoni: oh.
12:52 aharoni so finally i can see what the excitement is about
12:53 aharoni i've been browsing through the pugs source tree
12:53 rindolf aharoni: I'm not much into p6 and stuff, but I still like to hang out here.
12:53 rindolf aharoni: have you been to any Perl-IL meetings?
12:54 rindolf aharoni: there's a Ruby-IL meeting on Sunday.
12:54 rindolf I have to be there to set up the room and stuff.
12:55 moritz aharoni: we are all excited ;-)
12:56 aharoni i live near Jerusalem, so i don't have time to meetings in TA, but i went to a couple of meetings in J-M
12:56 aharoni i even gave a talk about using Perl for linguistics
12:56 moritz cool ;)
12:57 aharoni so anyway, i've been browsing through the pugs source tree ...
12:57 aharoni and it's really eye-opening
12:58 aharoni for years i've been coding Perl, C#, Java ... Haskell is really something different
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12:59 moritz completly different - that's why I contribute to the test suite and infrastructure, because it somewhat scares me ;)
13:00 rindolf aharoni: I've written some Haskell code.
13:00 aharoni i am usually very picky about coding standards and readability, but the Pugs code is very readable
13:00 rindolf aharoni: http://www.shlomifish.org/haskell/ among other things.
13:00 aharoni and i don't even know much Haskell! but i'm learning
13:00 lambdabot Title: Index of /haskell
13:01 rindolf aharoni: I have yet to understand what $ in Haskell means. I keep forgetting.
13:01 b_jonas rindolf: I think it's just a parenthesis or something
13:01 aharoni rindolf: that's just what i've been looking for.
13:01 rindolf aharoni: I once wrote a log analyzer in Haskell, which caused a stack overflow.
13:01 b_jonas but I don't know haskell
13:01 moritz rindolf: the $ just modifies precedence
13:01 rindolf b_jonas: hi.
13:01 rindolf b_jonas: OK.
13:01 aharoni yeah, that's how i understood it.
13:01 rindolf moritz: oh.
13:01 moritz rindolf: so foo (bar baz) can be written as foo $ bar baz
13:02 rindolf moritz: hmmm...
13:02 moritz it's like a noop with lowest precedence
13:02 aharoni so it's mostly for optimizing for readability?
13:02 moritz right
13:02 aharoni OK, so i got it right.
13:02 moritz but I'm not a haskell guru by any means, that's just what I read in YAHTj
13:02 aharoni i am used to perl's man pages - perlop, perlfunc, etc.
13:02 moritz s/j$//
13:03 aharoni and i couldn't find anything like this in Haskell docs, but eventually i just found it in the source code of Prelude
13:03 aharoni and right - ($) is a function that does pretty much nothing
13:04 moritz YaY, I understood something correctly!
13:04 thoughtpolice haskell is an amazing language
13:04 jaapweel i wrote some haddock documentation into HsSyck, which is in the pugs tree, and i sent the darcs patch to audrey. is that the Right Thing to do with pugs patches?
13:05 jaapweel or should they go to some mailing list?
13:05 aharoni jaapweel: that's exactly what i came to ask too :)
13:05 thoughtpolice jaapweel: get a commit bit and just commit directly :)
13:05 moritz jaapweel: /msg me your email, and you'll get a commit bit
13:05 aharoni i'm too much of a noob to hack into Haskell code, but i really wanted to help with documentation
13:05 thoughtpolice aharoni: i'll send you one too
13:06 thoughtpolice moritz: what's the commitbit interface?
13:06 moritz or write it here if you don't mind spam ;)
13:06 thoughtpolice i lost the url :(
13:06 moritz commitbit.pugscode.org iirc
13:06 moritz http://commitbit.pugscode.org/admin/project/Pugs/people
13:06 jaapweel thoughtpolice, thanks for the advice; is this commit bit for some non-darcs VCS?
13:06 thoughtpolice pugs uses svn
13:06 moritz jaapweel: it's svn ;)
13:06 jaapweel i see
13:06 thoughtpolice the darcs repo is purely there for looks :)
13:06 jaapweel damn
13:06 thoughtpolice it's cool
13:07 thoughtpolice pulling the svn repo shouldn't take long at all
13:07 jaapweel and i thinkin you guys are being all fancily distributed...
13:07 thoughtpolice probably a bit faster since you won't have to download about 15,000 patch files :)
13:07 jaapweel the darcs pull wasn't so bad with --partial
13:07 moritz jaapweel: I don't think distribute SCM scales well for a project like pugs
13:08 thoughtpolice i prefer the distributed model
13:08 moritz just too many different people with repositories
13:08 thoughtpolice well
13:08 thoughtpolice look at the linux kernel :)
13:08 jaapweel moritz, the concept, or darcs in particular? kernel.org uses distributed SCM
13:08 thoughtpolice jaapweel: he means the concept of distributed source control
13:08 moritz jaapweel: yes, but they have a central repository as well
13:08 moritz I'm not an darcs expert though
13:09 thoughtpolice well, darcs is about as easy as simply putting it on the internet
13:09 thoughtpolice as it is with most repo's
13:09 jaapweel thoughtpolice, i don't think the concept doesn't scale; in fact, i would say it scales better, and svn is acceptable exactly for smaller projects
13:09 thoughtpolice and that is your 'central reposetory'
13:09 thoughtpolice although in reality
13:09 thoughtpolice jaapweel: neither do I; I love distributed VCS's
13:09 thoughtpolice in reality, it's not really a central repo
13:09 thoughtpolice it's just another repo
13:09 moritz can I tell darcs to pull patches from every repository that I ever pulled from?
13:10 thoughtpolice in svn lexicon you actually have the central repo on a server
13:10 jaapweel but anyway, i didn't mean to start the big version control debate, i was just wondering how to contribute my little patch ;-)
13:10 thoughtpolice moritz: you have to give it a specific repo.
13:10 b_jonas lol, vcs wars
13:10 thoughtpolice since in the distributed model patches can conflict if you're not careful
13:10 thoughtpolice of course,
13:10 thoughtpolice in that model you should be well organized
13:10 thoughtpolice in that respect I can see why pugs took the centralized model:
13:10 thoughtpolice everybody has the same access, same code, same stuff.
13:11 thoughtpolice you don't have to worry about pulling from here or there. the linux kernel is particular because while it's a *huge* project
13:11 thoughtpolice the developers are more organized
13:11 jaapweel patches can conflict either way, though. i remember using CVS for a project in college and we continuously had these conflicts that required complicated CVS dances to resolve
13:11 thoughtpolice so they don't have to worry about the conflicting problems inbetween their branches since just about every kernel dev has a specific part they work on alone. normally your changes won't reach far outside those bounds.
13:11 moritz well, CVS sucks ;)
13:11 thoughtpolice yeah
13:11 thoughtpolice as linus said:
13:12 thoughtpolice ".patch files and tarballs are what we originally used for the kernel"
13:12 thoughtpolice "which is in fact a much superior source control model than CVS"
13:12 b_jonas the ilnux kernel can't have lots of people with commit bits like pugs
13:12 b_jonas or parrot
13:12 moritz right
13:13 thoughtpolice true
13:13 moritz and their git is really cool IMHO ;)
13:13 thoughtpolice but then again,
13:13 jaapweel anyhow, my email address is weel at ugcs dot caltech dot edu
13:13 thoughtpolice linux isn't a "community effort" in the same sense that pugs is I suppose
13:13 b_jonas yeah
13:13 aharoni linux is not -Ofun
13:14 thoughtpolice the linux kernel has a dedicated group of people who work on it alone; most people outside that group aren't going to want commit access or probably even hack on the project as liberally,
13:14 thoughtpolice since the linux kernel tbh is a pretty hard project
13:14 moritz thoughtpolice: can you access commitbit? it times out for me :(
13:14 thoughtpolice i accessed it
13:14 thoughtpolice yeah hold on
13:15 thoughtpolice aharoni & jaapweel: you might have to wait a couple minutes. commitbit's interface is kind of slow (well, understatement, but okay)
13:16 thoughtpolice on the vcs note, i still prefer the distributed model for a couple reasons, but for a project that's as free-form as pugs, having that many individual repositories is asinine. a distributed model would be better suited amongst a small sect of developers.
13:16 thoughtpolice also, moritz, I'll agree git is pretty awesome. :)
13:17 thoughtpolice pretty much 0 windows support is kind of a killer though for a lot of stuff.
13:18 moritz not for linux kernel dev ;)
13:18 thoughtpolice yeah :)
13:18 thoughtpolice the linux kernel kind of has special needs though
13:18 moritz or debian packages and stuff
13:18 thoughtpolice git *is* fast and branching is pretty critical; a solution like darcs wouldn't scale well to a code base that tremendous.
13:19 thoughtpolice both in speed and handling that code base
13:20 thoughtpolice aharoni: invited. :)
13:20 thoughtpolice check your inbox in a few minutes
13:20 thoughtpolice be sure to add your name to AUTHORS as your first commit; from there on in have a blast.
13:20 thoughtpolice and now it's time to eat some cereal
13:21 thoughtpolice jaapweel: gimmie a minute and I'll get yours as well. i assume the name to just be 'jaapweel'?
13:24 aharoni thoughtpolice: thanks!
13:24 aharoni wow it is indeed very slow
13:24 thoughtpolice np
13:24 thoughtpolice yes, it is.
13:24 thoughtpolice :(
13:24 thoughtpolice kind of a killer
13:24 aharoni is it always like that ??
13:24 thoughtpolice it seems so unfortunately. :(
13:25 thoughtpolice btw aharoni, on the haskell note earlier: http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/index.html
13:25 moritz aharoni: we have load problems on the server that hosts it
13:25 thoughtpolice that lists the full stock libraries that come with ghc
13:25 moritz aharoni: but that only affects commitbit, other applications (like svn) are not that slow
13:25 thoughtpolice you should also probably know about this link: http://haskell.org/hoogle/
13:25 lambdabot Title: Hoogle
13:25 thoughtpolice speaking of that
13:25 thoughtpolice @where+ haskelldocs http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/index.html
13:25 lambdabot Done.
13:26 thoughtpolice @where+ hoogle http://haskell.org/hoogle
13:26 lambdabot Done.
13:26 thoughtpolice for easy access later. :)
13:27 thoughtpolice jaapweel: I sent yours. I just put your name under 'jaapweel' if that's not much trouble
13:28 moritz thoughtpolice++ # invinting people ;)
13:28 thoughtpolice :)
13:28 aharoni so commitbit is slow, but SVN is not; what is commitbit, then? the interface for setting preferences?
13:29 thoughtpolice aharoni: it's essentially a simple way to add authors to a project, administer that project, etc. etc..
13:29 thoughtpolice so yeah you could say that
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13:36 aharoni thoughtpolice: OK, i changed the password
13:36 sunnavy__ joined #perl6
13:36 aharoni thoughtpolice: now to commit i need to use this username/password in SVN?
13:39 moritz aharoni: when you type 'svn ci' it will ask you for both
13:39 aharoni thanks!
13:39 moritz aharoni: it is custom to add your name to the AUTHORS file in the first commit to check if it works
13:39 thoughtpolice yep
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13:39 aharoni OK
13:40 thoughtpolice svnbot6 rose from the dead
13:40 thoughtpolice so the commit should fly by in here too :)
13:40 moritz with a few seconds delay, that is ;)
13:42 thoughtpolice oi
13:42 thoughtpolice this whole gplv3 nonsense is exploding
13:42 moritz I think gplv3 is necessary, but overhyped
13:43 thoughtpolice the gplv2 doesn't reflect what the fsf wants, so the gplv3 is the 'logical conclusion'
13:43 thoughtpolice (at least for now)
13:43 thoughtpolice I mean in the sense of what's going on right now with all the controversy with it involving people like sun and linus
13:44 thoughtpolice it's getting insane. i'm sort of tired hearing about it. :(
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13:45 moritz thoughtpolice: stop reading /. then ;)
13:45 moritz *SCNR*
13:45 thoughtpolice it's also reddit. :)
13:45 thoughtpolice but it doesn't explode as much as it does on /.
13:46 sunnavy__ changed the nick to sunnavy
13:46 thoughtpolice (i'm more programmer than I am 'computer guy' in general, so reddit appeals to me more.)
13:46 thoughtpolice what I want to know is why everybody's throwing it around like it's the obligation of those using the v2 to switch to v3 -- especially linus.
13:47 thoughtpolice (although linus has talked about using the v3 for the kernel for technologies like ZFS and dtrace and the like, since sun is really profiting off of using linux's drivers)
13:47 thoughtpolice i'd be willing to be $20 (USD) linus won't relicense anything though.
13:48 thoughtpolice and the whole 'tivoization' thing is weird in it's own right.
13:48 thoughtpolice there's so much drama even before it's release i kind of want to see what'll happen after it's release,
13:48 moritz thoughtpolice: I will not bet against that ;)
13:49 thoughtpolice yeah
13:49 moritz linus is sometimes pretty stubborn, and he does not see a reason for the trouble atm
13:49 thoughtpolice well
13:49 thoughtpolice opinionated people get things done
13:50 moritz maybe if opensolaris adapts gplv3
13:50 moritz then it would enable code sharing between linux and solaris
13:50 moritz ZFS in linux, YaY!
13:50 thoughtpolice opensolaris is going to use it iirc
13:50 thoughtpolice (zfs looks rad.)
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13:51 moritz thoughtpolice: that's not decided yet
13:51 thoughtpolice what i find particularly funny is that people are all getting linux all 'gussied up' for the big time and stuff, but treat linus like he's insane or something. he openly admits he's a bastard and he embraces that.
13:51 thoughtpolice moritz: oh yeah? hm
13:52 thoughtpolice well for technologies like zfs and dtrace in linux
13:52 thoughtpolice it definately couldn't hurt
13:52 moritz thoughtpolice: iirc the sun ceo just said they might consider it
13:52 thoughtpolice ah.
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13:52 thoughtpolice he actually invited linus to dinner at his house. :)
13:52 moritz but as long as the license is not final, they obiviously can't decide ;)
13:53 b_jonas sure
13:53 TJCRI this may be a crazy question but is perl6 released (stable/production version) already?
13:53 thoughtpolice the final draft will probably be pretty spot on as to what's going to be in the release.
13:53 moritz TJCRI: it is not
13:53 thoughtpolice TJCRI: negative
13:53 thoughtpolice i haven't bothered reading the gpl3 draft fully though. i don't know if i particularly agree with the whole tivoization thing though
13:54 TJCRI any time line or an estimate to when?
13:54 thoughtpolice i mean, I can see where they're coming from; adding a restriction like that automatically removes a lot more of them (example: banning slavery,) but i dunno.
13:54 thoughtpolice TJCRI: not really, unfortunately
13:55 thoughtpolice TJCRI: but nothing stops you from playing around with it now: http://run.pugscode.org
13:55 TJCRI its ok.. I was just wondering
13:55 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
13:55 TJCRI what are some of the big changes in perl6?
13:56 moritz TJCRI: rules to implement grammers, easily definable new operators...
13:57 moritz TJCRI: autoparallelisation...
13:57 moritz TJCRI: easy integration of other languagues
13:57 rindolf aharoni: here?
13:57 moritz TJCRI: take a look at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/faq.html - there are tons of new features
13:57 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 FAQ - perl6
13:58 TJCRI yeah I will check that out!
13:58 TJCRI thanks
13:58 thoughtpolice new stuff is fun. :)
13:59 moritz you're welcome
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14:01 TJCRI oh sweet perl6 will be compiled language :)
14:01 moritz TJCRI: yes and no ;)
14:01 thoughtpolice well, to parrot, but yes. :) (I suppose it depends on your formal definition of 'compile,' it seems some people can be pretty fussy about it.)
14:02 moritz TJCRI: there is no spec that says perl 6 hast to be compiled, and every implemenation that passes the test suite will be "official"
14:02 moritz TJCRI: but the goal is to build a compiler that outputs parrot PIR or bytecode
14:03 b_jonas I think there's too much fuss about the word "compiled". they seem to say that as if it was automatically a good thing if you compile anything.
14:03 moritz b_jonas: I think compiling is a good thing[tm], but we have to be clear what "compiled" means
14:03 moritz b_jonas: perl 5 is mostly compiled to byte code as well
14:04 b_jonas it can definitely be a good thing if you compile the right thing and in a right way
14:04 TJCRI but perl5 is done on the fly right? will perl6 be done the same way then? (in other words - not much difference)? or will it be compiled before hand?
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14:04 thoughtpolice b_jonas: yes, some people can get pretty picky on the use of that word.
14:05 moritz TJCRI: I don't know, that's not yet implemented... perhaps like python where it's compiled on the fly and the bytecode is stored
14:05 thoughtpolice i.e. "it's not compiled if it's run through a virtual machine; it must be native code, etc"
14:05 TJCRI ya that makes sense... I am by no means an expert but when I think of compiled I usually think of like the way c/c++ is compiled.. into an executable
14:06 moritz TJCRI: but I guess it will let you dump and execute the byte code if you want that
14:06 thoughtpolice i assume jit-compilation of the source will probably be done if you want it (i.e. perl6 file.pl), but TimToady or [particle] may be in a better position to answer that
14:06 TJCRI but said the way thoughtpolice just said it, I guess java is compiled but then run through a vm
14:06 moritz think of it more like java, without the crazyness ;)
14:06 thoughtpolice i'd assume you could do it either way that's preferable to you
14:07 thoughtpolice TJCRI: well, depends on the implementation. you *can* compile java to native code; sun's implementation is just 'the' implementation
14:07 TJCRI moritz: your python example... isnt that similar to what mod_perl does for apache and perl modules on the web? pretty much keeps 1 copy available for faster running
14:07 thoughtpolice but in general i've seen some people fairly fussy over that particular word. i'm pretty lax about it; if it is translated to a form that runs on some sort of execution platform (be it parrot, neko, .net, jvm, etc) then I would probably consider it 'compiled'
14:07 moritz TJCRI: the difference is that mod_perl keeps it in memory, while python keeps it on disk
14:08 thoughtpolice that includes an actual processor architecture
14:08 TJCRI moritz: ah ok I dont do much in python so I dont know how its handled
14:08 moritz same for me.. I just observed it creats .pyc files when .py files are run, and they are updated when you change the .py file
14:09 moritz so I guess it's a byte code representation of the source file
14:09 thoughtpolice yeah python has a byte code representation
14:09 thoughtpolice in the REPL iirc you can 'dump' the bytecode of a particular expression
14:09 TJCRI yeah well that makes sense... if the byte code is newer than the source code, why re-translate it all again?>
14:09 thoughtpolice but I can't remember how to do it.
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14:10 TJCRI ok so here is a great hypothetical question... perl is at least at v5.8.5  ... what happened when it gets to 5.9.9 ? ;)
14:11 moritz TJCRI: the next maint release will be 5.10
14:11 thoughtpolice 5.10
14:11 thoughtpolice :)
14:11 moritz TJCRI: and even minor version number is always maint, an odd development...
14:11 thoughtpolice now, if it gets up to 5.99,
14:11 thoughtpolice well
14:11 moritz TJCRI: the current dev track is it 5.9.5, but they want to release 5.10 soonish
14:11 thoughtpolice that may hint at something
14:11 TJCRI well there ya go, an easy answer/solution :) guess there is still lots of time
14:12 * TJCRI should have known that too because of mapserver being on 4.10
14:12 moritz but I don't expect a 5.14 release before Perl 6 is out ;)
14:12 moritz perhaps not even a 5.12 - the minor releases take their time as well
14:13 TJCRI well I hope I can handle perl6 :) I like using perl for scripts like reports and also doing backups etc. of data
14:13 thoughtpolice i propose we call the last release before 6 is out, 'perl 5000'
14:14 thoughtpolice or I suppose it'd be perl5k
14:14 moritz TJCRI: it's by no means harder than perl 5
14:14 moritz TJCRI: nearly all features are optional
14:14 moritz and 'say $foo' is just easier to type than 'print $foo, "\n"' ;-)
14:15 thoughtpolice $foo.say ftw!
14:15 moritz or that, yes
14:15 TJCRI ftw?
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14:15 TJCRI oh ya $foo.say would be similar to the way java is written
14:15 TJCRI I could go for that
14:16 moritz but you can still use the non-method syntax
14:16 moritz so "say $foo" and "$foo.say" are exactly the same
14:16 moritz same for static types - you can use them if you want, or ommit them when they don't fit your needs
14:17 thoughtpolice TJCRI: 'ftw' == 'for the win'
14:17 moritz ?eval 'wtf'.reverse
14:17 TJCRI thoughtpolice: still doesn't make sense to me? must be something I am not aware of
14:17 evalbot_r16670 "ftw"
14:18 thoughtpolice TJCRI: i meant it in the sense '$foo.say' > 'say $foo'
14:18 thoughtpolice TJCRI: if you want a quick dose of perl 6 you can check my blog:
14:18 moritz TJCRI: you can live without ;)
14:18 thoughtpolice http://diveintoperl6.blogspot.com
14:18 lambdabot Title: Dive into Perl 6
14:18 thoughtpolice that should hopefully give you some background in writing a little perl 6 code. :)
14:19 TJCRI how is it greater if moritz said the sytanx are exactly the same? *major confusion* hehe
14:19 thoughtpolice speaking of that, the next round is going to be looong and tiresome to write.
14:19 moritz TJCRI: maybe thoughtpolice thinks it's more "idiomatic"
14:19 thoughtpolice not really
14:20 moritz thoughtpolice: cooler?
14:20 moritz shorter?
14:20 thoughtpolice that might be one way to explain it
14:20 moritz easier to type?
14:20 thoughtpolice in all honesty I just like to stir things up
14:20 thoughtpolice i guess my mission is accomplished :)
14:21 moritz it always depends on what you do. If you write '@array.sort.reverse.join(", ").say" you write it the way the data flows
14:21 TJCRI ok I have one more question before I get back to doing some of my work... what type of editor/ide do you guys use?  I used to use textpad with perl syntax at my old job but the last year or so I have been using eclipse with epic
14:21 thoughtpolice TJCRI: emacs. :)
14:21 moritz TJCRI: vim wtf!
14:21 moritz *LOL*
14:21 thoughtpolice apparently, there is something wrong here
14:21 thoughtpolice moritz: we must fight to the death
14:21 thoughtpolice sorry it had to end this way, but my editor is better than your editor :(
14:22 * TJCRI laughs
14:22 moritz *LOL*
14:22 moritz thoughtpolice: s/editor/operating system/
14:22 thoughtpolice that only gives me more of an edge. :)
14:22 TJCRI well I just picked epic with eclipse because I also do some java coding and I understand eclipse fairly well
14:23 thoughtpolice eclipse is pretty nice tbh.
14:23 thoughtpolice i'm just a terminal guy myself
14:23 moritz vim and emacs both have perl 6 modes ;)
14:23 TJCRI alright well it was fun chatting with ya... time to get back to my maps
14:23 moritz TJCRI: have fun
14:24 thoughtpolice TJCRI: bye. drop in any time with questions. :)
14:24 TJCRI oh I will :)
14:25 moritz thoughtpolice: time for us to start our stupid flame war, is it? *g*
14:25 thoughtpolice moritz: undoubtly. :)
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14:31 thoughtpolice oi. i'm definately going to have to split round 4 into two parts I think.
14:32 pmurias ($) is right associative function application
14:34 thoughtpolice pmurias: i think you may be an hour or so too late for that convo :)
14:36 pmurias just that anybody reading the log dosn't get a wrong idea
14:37 moritz so what does "right associative" mean?
14:37 * moritz is not a CS guy, just a programmer ;)
14:37 moritz but I try real hard ;)
14:38 pmurias a $ b $ c = a(b(c))
14:38 moritz ok
14:38 pmurias in haskell a b c = (a(b))(c)
14:38 pmurias so "$" is the eqivalent of " " in perl
14:39 * pmurias isn't a CS guy either
14:40 moritz ok
14:40 thoughtpolice it's related to how the function is applied in relation to the parameters.
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14:41 thoughtpolice if there was an inverse of ($), let's call it, say, (#), it would be left associative, as (a(b(c))) (or a $ b $ c) would be written c # b # a
14:42 moritz like the dot notation in perl
14:42 moritz @list.sort.say
14:42 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
14:42 moritz lambdabot: shut up ;)
14:43 thoughtpolice if you notice in the haskell docs there are multiple (seemingly innocuous) different definitions of functions like fold; the distinction is important, as it says in what way that particular function is "associated"
14:43 moritz ok, I know of foldl and foldr or whatever they are called ;)
14:43 thoughtpolice yeah :)
14:43 thoughtpolice the expression, for example
14:43 thoughtpolice foldr (+) 0 [1..5]
14:44 thoughtpolice would evaluate to:
14:44 thoughtpolice > foldr (+) 0 [1..5]
14:44 lambdabot 15
14:44 moritz .. + 4 + ( 5 + 0)
14:44 moritz right?
14:44 thoughtpolice well, in reality, that's a lot like saying (1 + (2 + (3 + (4 + ( 5 + 0)))))
14:44 moritz > foldr + $ 0 [1..5]
14:44 lambdabot Parse error
14:45 moritz ok, + is infix
14:45 thoughtpolice in the case of other functions,
14:45 thoughtpolice it's automatically 'infixed' in haskell using the backtick notation
14:45 moritz >let plus = (+); foldr plus $ 0 [1..5]
14:46 thoughtpolice > let plus = (+) in foldr plus 0 $ take 5 [1..]
14:46 lambdabot 15
14:46 thoughtpolice :)
14:46 moritz thanks ;)
14:46 moritz > let plus = (+) in plus `foldr`  0 $ take 5 [1..]
14:46 lambdabot 15
14:46 thoughtpolice there ya go. :)
14:47 moritz the haskell talk yesterday was not in vain ;)
14:47 gogonkt1 joined #perl6
14:47 thoughtpolice hm
14:48 thoughtpolice > let plus = (+) in (plus 0 $ take 5 [1..])`flip foldr` plus
14:48 lambdabot Parse error
14:48 thoughtpolice aw :(
14:48 * pmurias wishes he could use haskell in browsers instead of javascript
14:48 thoughtpolice > let flipper = (flip foldr) in (+ 0 $ take 5 [1..])`flip foldr` plus
14:48 lambdabot Parse error
14:48 thoughtpolice > let flipper = (flip foldr) in (+ 0 $ take 5 [1..])`flipper` plus
14:48 lambdabot  Not in scope: `plus'
14:48 thoughtpolice > let flipper = (flip foldr) in (0 $ take 5 [1..]) `flipper` (+)
14:48 lambdabot  add an instance declaration for (Num ([t] -> a))
14:49 thoughtpolice aw :(
14:49 thoughtpolice but you get the idea
14:49 thoughtpolice foldl is the exact opposite in that it reduces a list from left to right.
14:49 moritz yes, that haskell is picky of the types ;)
14:49 thoughtpolice the type system is the best part. :)
14:49 mico_ joined #perl6
14:49 thoughtpolice no runtime bugs, just about, uh, ever. take that, null pointers!
14:50 moritz but empty lists passed to tail ;)
14:52 thoughtpolice well, you still have no worries that your code has actual 'bugs' in the programmatic sense; passing an empty list to something is just faulty coding. :)
14:52 thoughtpolice either that or something from the realworld is messing with you (like say doing [arg] <- getArgs, pass more than one args and it won't work that well :/ )
14:52 moritz thoughtpolice: that might be correct, but it doesn't stop your software from not doing what you want it to do ;)
14:53 thoughtpolice true is such
14:53 thoughtpolice luckily for us though,
14:53 thoughtpolice haskell just works :)
14:53 pmurias valgrind + cgdb is an excelent combination for tracing down null pointer
14:54 thoughtpolice valgrind is slick
14:54 moritz valgrind++
14:55 thoughtpolice definately
14:55 pmurias firing up the debuger when segfault happens is realy cool
14:55 pmurias s/happens/happen/
14:56 moritz without valgrind and gdb I'd had to use perl all the time ;)
14:56 thoughtpolice you make it sound bad.
14:56 thoughtpolice :o
14:57 pmurias &
14:57 moritz that was intentionally but not really serious ;)
14:57 moritz thoughtpolice: I like perl, but there are applications where performance is just too important
14:57 thoughtpolice absolutely.
14:58 moritz thoughtpolice: I wrote a little C program that detects eyes in images of faces - I tried it in perl first, but I got bored to wait for the result all the time ;)
14:58 thoughtpolice i'm still young (and unemployed,) so in general performance is a concern to me, just not a huge one. to put another way: i've never really worked on things like minimalistic hardware (embedded stuff) or in very intensive applications where your apps have to be bleeding edge
14:59 thoughtpolice for some reason though I doubt if one of those careers or jobs ever land in my lap, that my outlook on the situation will change a great deal overall.
14:59 moritz thoughtpolice: unemployed? apply for a perl 6 microgrant!
14:59 thoughtpolice :)
14:59 moritz not the same payment as "real work"
15:00 moritz but 500$ are better than nothing
15:00 moritz and if you want to work on pugs, you can code haskell!
15:00 thoughtpolice perl 6 microgrant?
15:00 thoughtpolice do they take 17 year olds? :x
15:00 moritz iirc there are microgrants left, and pugs people are encouraged to apply
15:00 Juerd Age is irrelevant.
15:00 moritz thoughtpolice: why not?
15:01 Juerd Skills, tuits, and actual work are important.
15:01 thoughtpolice fun stuff. :)
15:01 moritz see http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/22/1542235
15:01 lambdabot Title: use Perl | Perl 6 Microgrants
15:02 moritz Juerd: did you keep track of how many are available?
15:02 thoughtpolice hm seems good. a nice way to get some cash doing some awesome stuff over the summer. :)
15:03 moritz right
15:03 Juerd moritz: No
15:03 moritz actually I applied for some "real work" over the summer, and if I don't the job, I apply for one as well
15:04 Juerd I wonder if upgrading feather would be within the microgrant program's ideas
15:04 thoughtpolice well a microgrant like that may be a good idea (i wanted to apply for the SoC but you have to be 18.) if I come up with any good ideas i'll give a shot emailing them. :)
15:04 moritz Juerd: upgrading to what?
15:04 Juerd moritz: More CPU
15:04 moritz thoughtpolice: repair the .PIR backend
15:05 thoughtpolice 17 is like the worst age. there are some restrictions that're lifted; but for the most part, it only makes you want that golden status of '18' moreso. :(
15:05 Juerd moritz: But mostly, data backup space is needed
15:05 moritz thoughtpolice: you'll do haskell and learn PIR
15:05 prism joined #perl6
15:05 thoughtpolice moritz: plausable. :)
15:05 moritz Juerd: do I have to travel to the netherlands? *g*
15:05 thoughtpolice i talked with gaal about getting some public haddock docs of the pugs source up, as well as a index of the functions in the source (hasktags)
15:06 thoughtpolice btw, Juerd, did you get my email?
15:06 Juerd moritz: Oh, I can de the upgrade in an hour. It's the hardware expenses that I'm considering applying for...
15:06 Juerd thoughtpolice: No
15:06 thoughtpolice :(
15:06 moritz Juerd: ok ;)
15:06 Juerd moritz: The current motherboard is maxxed out, CPU wise, and new things use DDR2 memory.
15:07 Juerd So that would all need replacement: mainboard, CPU, memory.
15:07 Juerd That, and some hard drives for data backups, could be done for $500, I think
15:07 moritz Juerd: if there are services that could be factored out to different maschines I might contribute some hosting
15:07 moritz Juerd: problem is I don't have root access, so I can't give other shell access :(
15:08 Juerd moritz: I have several spare machines myself. That's not really the issue
15:08 moritz Juerd: ok
15:08 Juerd The big issue is that there's a limit to my tuits as a sysadmin.
15:08 Juerd And this limit is becoming more of a problem, as feather's hardware resources are used more.
15:08 [particle] ddr2++
15:15 thoughtpolice Juerd: I resent the email.
15:15 thoughtpolice maybe it'll get through this time.
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15:19 gaal regarding version control and pugs: the main repo is svn. there is a read only darcs mirror. for folks who prefer distriuted version control, there's svk, which happens to work seamlessly with svn backend :)
15:21 Juerd "happens to". heh.
15:22 moritz what a coincidence ;)
15:22 Juerd thoughtpolice: If you're Michele, I've received the message
15:22 thoughtpolice no, I would be Austin. :(
15:22 Juerd Then I haven't
15:23 thoughtpolice damnit. :(
15:23 thoughtpolice juerd@juerd.nl right?
15:23 Juerd Yes
15:23 Juerd Or root@feather.perl6.nl :)
15:24 Juerd Somehow some people seem to use that address even though I don't advertise it :)
15:24 moritz that's the "bow for me 'cause I am root' - effect ;)
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15:35 aharoni rindolf: still here?
15:35 aharoni i'm back
15:35 aharoni windows crashed ;)
15:42 moritz windows sucks ;)
15:42 moritz when it crashes, at least ;)
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15:45 thoughtpolice crashes suck in general I've found
15:45 aharoni i tried to pick up haskell a couple of years ago and it seemed like complete gibberish
15:46 aharoni i don't know what happened since. now that i try to read haskell docs, it looks so simple and intuiitve
15:46 aharoni and i'm not a CS guy
15:46 moritz aharoni: perhaps you changed? *g*
15:47 aharoni maybe.
15:47 aharoni i tried to go back to it, 'cause i kept checking www.pugscode.org from time to time ...
15:48 moritz CSS seemed complicated and useless to me first and now I couldn't do without ;)
15:48 aharoni and then one time i read the "-Ofun" presentation and it just knocked me off
15:48 aharoni so i thought that i have to try and look into pugs again, and then some magic happened
15:49 moritz I'm still waiting for that magic ;)
15:52 aharoni good luck. i'll have something more significant to say after a few commits
15:52 aharoni in the meantime i'm a mere noob
15:53 moritz well, begin by commiting AUTHORS ;-)
15:53 aharoni even before i did anything else?
15:53 moritz yes
15:53 moritz just to check that your commitbit works
15:53 moritz it's a custom ;)
15:54 aharoni i thought of adding hebrew to Earendil translations, but i don't have a hebrew LOTR anywhere around
15:54 moritz ;)
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16:12 gaal I thought of translating that myself, but got stuck on it.
16:14 thoughtpolice aharoni: I tried haskell several years ago as well (when I was about 15 maybe.) i saw it somewhere and I liked the lambda logo. needless to say I couldn't understand a thing. :(
16:15 thoughtpolice so I think I opted for something like python instead
16:15 thoughtpolice i can't quite remember; when I started programming I tried a few languages, then there's this big hazy area, then where I am about now. you may wonder what happened in that middle area; so do i.
16:16 * moritz started with quick basic :(
16:17 * thoughtpolice started with php :X
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16:20 thoughtpolice perl was my second though. :)
16:21 * aharoni started with Turbo Pascal 7, not counting GW-BASIC
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16:21 moritz I can't rember exactly.. I think I had pascal as a second language, then C
16:22 thoughtpolice C was my third as well.
16:23 thoughtpolice i already feel old. :( i'll be in a wheelchair by the time i'm 25 due to being tired out from coding so much
16:23 thoughtpolice but at least I'll probably end up happy :)
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16:43 * cj started with turbo pacal, but doesn't recall the version number
16:44 cj then turbo c++ then gcc
16:52 thoughtpolice i always found talking to those who started with punch cards to be very enlightening. :)
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16:54 rindolf cj: I started with the XT ROM's BASIC.
16:54 rindolf cj: back in 1987
16:58 thoughtpolice okay, you guys have put me back in perspective. i'm pretty young.
16:58 thoughtpolice :)
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17:09 fglock I did start with punch cards
17:09 lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:11 mico_ I too started with punchcards. Copying software was so hard :-)
17:18 weinig_ joined #perl6
17:19 thoughtpolice i would bet so
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17:24 TimToady I started with paper tape...punchcards were reserved for the real programmers...
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17:26 b_jonas good. I'll quote that as "I started perl with paper tape..."
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19:39 svnbot6 r16671 | lwall++ | [STD] add pseudoops to catch P5 migratos.
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21:32 meppl good night
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21:55 Aankh|Clone changed the nick to Aankhen``
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22:21 dduncan ?eval sub of of Bool () {...}
22:22 evalbot_r16670 changed the nick to evalbot_r16671
22:22 evalbot_r16671 undef
22:27 avarab changed the nick to avar
22:34 TimToady ?eval sub of () of Bool { True }; of();
22:34 evalbot_r16671 Bool::True
22:35 TimToady ?eval our Bool sub of { True }; of()
22:35 evalbot_r16671 Bool::True
22:36 moritz is True the same as Bool::True?
22:36 TimToady True is imported from Bool
22:36 TimToady though it might be hardwired in pugs
22:36 moritz ?eval False = Bool::True; False ?? "foo" !! "bar"
22:37 evalbot_r16671 Error: Can't modify constant item: VBool False
22:37 dduncan fyi, my above example was that I wanted to name my method 'of'
22:37 dduncan it is an accessor for an attribute named 'of'
22:37 TimToady yes, I was just showing you how I'd write it
22:38 dduncan okay, I'll try it that way
22:38 TimToady actually, these days I'd use (--> Bool)
22:38 moritz how's that written?
22:39 TimToady ?eval sub of (--> Bool) { True }; of()
22:39 evalbot_r16671 Error: ␤Unexpected "-->"␤expecting formal parameter or ")"
22:39 TimToady bug in pugs
22:39 TimToady ?eval sub of (*@none --> Bool) { True }; of()
22:39 evalbot_r16671 Bool::True
22:40 TimToady in fact, that's one of the "cheats" that cheat does.
22:44 TimToady actually, it turns (--> Foo) into (*%_ --> Foo)
22:45 avar ?eval our Bool sub eek { True } eek;
22:45 evalbot_r16671 Bool::True
22:45 avar ?eval sub eek (--> Bool) { True } eek;
22:45 evalbot_r16671 Error: ␤Unexpected "-->"␤expecting formal parameter or ")"
22:46 TimToady ?eval sub eek (*%_ --> Bool) { True } eek;
22:46 evalbot_r16671 Bool::True
22:46 TimToady just doesn't like the empty list in front of -->
22:47 avar but aside from that --> Type is the same as my/our Type sub ...
22:48 TimToady yes
22:49 svnbot6 r16672 | lwall++ | [STD] missing require, no, and trusts
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22:55 TimToady if someone is looking for a good weekend project, translating the regex part of STD.pm into Haskell and calling it from Parser.hs at about line 240 would be cool.  extra points for making it run.  :)
22:56 moritz regex to haskell compiler? or manually?
22:57 TimToady manually, for bootstrapping
22:58 moritz maybe I find some crazy haskell hackers at debconf that I can convince
22:58 TimToady the main impediment to running STD in pugs seems to be the lack of a regex engine that can handle it.
22:58 moritz s/that/whom/
22:58 TimToady should be trivially easy in a language with continuations :)
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23:30 dduncan fyi, its not very scientific, but it appears that the speed of Pugs is about 1/100th the speed if Perl 5 ...
23:30 dduncan judging by the wallclock time for the Perl 6 and Perl 5 versions of the Muldis-DB test suite
23:31 dduncan they are 201 secs vs 2 secs on my machine
23:31 dduncan that said, in either case, the majority of each test to date is just compilation, not runtime
23:31 dduncan for a runtime heavy test, the comparison may differ a lot, probably in Pugs' favor
23:32 dduncan has anyone else tried compiling or running equivalent code in the 2 languages on their machines?
23:33 avarab changed the nick to avar
23:35 dduncan that said, comparing CPU time rather than wallclock, it is 196.95 for Pugs vs 1.33 for Perl 5
23:35 dduncan in that case, Pugs is 1/148th the speed of Perl 5
23:35 dduncan perhaps a more accurate figure
23:43 svnbot6 r16673 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : in AST.pm, added new node types [Default,Treat], fixed bugs ; in Example.pm, replaced ::Value class with ::Var class
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