Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:07 offby1 "salomonic" ... involving skis?
00:07 offby1 maybe he means "salmonic" -- involving tasty fish
00:08 * moritz cries about the amount of classical education that seems to be lost ;)
00:08 * offby1 cries about misspellings of "Solomonic"
00:08 moritz offby1: I've got a good excuse, I'm not a native speaker...
00:09 offby1 you are excused
00:09 moritz and in German that guy is called "Salomon"
00:10 dduncan moritz, I agree
00:11 dduncan about that salmon solution
00:11 moritz what would you like with it? chips? *g*
00:11 dduncan nah
00:12 dduncan besides, normally chips are eaten with cod
00:12 dduncan or a cod-like fish
00:13 moritz so what would you eat with salmon? rice?
00:14 * moritz doesn't like most kinds of fish
00:16 dduncan I mainly have my salmon by itself, actually
00:16 dduncan with salt
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00:16 dduncan that said, I once had it served with coconut, that was nice
00:17 dduncan that was more fancy than usual, though
00:18 moritz well, have fun pondering about tasty food, I'll get some sleep in the mean time ;)
00:18 dduncan one combination I don't think I've had before, though, is fish with any kind of hash, if I recall
00:18 dduncan and I'll to work
00:18 moritz bye &
00:18 dduncan yup
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00:43 meppl good night
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07:02 meppl good morning
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09:04 evanl hi
09:04 evanl we're on yapc::beijing 2007
09:05 Tene :D!
09:06 evanl agent zhang has been given us some wonderful presentations about how to contribute to pugs and UML::Class:Simple
09:06 isaacd joined #perl6
09:06 evanl he's great
09:06 evanl :)
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09:14 evanl !
09:14 evanl hi chaos
09:14 evanl hi sunnavy
09:15 chaoslawful_ wow~
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09:16 evanl changed the nick to hmisty
09:16 chaoslawful_ wow~lucky to meet u here, evan
09:16 hmisty hehe
09:16 hmisty changed the nick to evanl
09:17 evanl nick server told me the nickname is owned by someone else, so faint
09:19 chaoslawful_ er...maybe just a cache problem...i met this problem before
09:19 evanl ok:)
09:19 evanl we're on yapc::beijing 2007 just now
09:19 evanl pity you're not here
09:20 evanl many excellent guys have given a lot of wonderful presentations
09:20 chaoslawful_ that's really a pity...
09:20 evanl r u all ok in baglore?
09:20 sunnavy hi, evanl
09:21 evanl hi sunnavy
09:21 chaoslawful_ ya, i'm fine here.
09:21 evanl great to hear that
09:21 chaoslawful_ much cooler than beijing
09:21 sunnavy chaow, hi, I heard you went to India
09:21 sunnavy s/chaow/chaoslawful/
09:22 chaoslawful_ hi, sunnavy. yep, i have to stay at bangalore for 3 weeks
09:22 evanl o i told them you'll stay for 2 months...sorry
09:23 sunnavy evanl, you must be hmisty ;-)
09:23 evanl haha yes
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09:24 sunnavy I'm back from YAPC::Beijing, for there'll be a dinner for my friends' graduations.
09:25 evanl oh. so where'r u now?
09:25 evanl @school?
09:25 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
09:25 evanl \@school?
09:25 sunnavy 西王庄, aha
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09:26 evanl o great irc can show chinese
09:26 evanl chaos, ur network seems not good...
09:27 chaoslawful__ yep...i'm accessing internet with a CDMA card...
09:27 evanl ...
09:27 chaoslawful__ the signal is very bad...such a pain...
09:27 sunnavy utf8 is great
09:27 evanl haha
09:27 evanl don't u have LAN connections?
09:28 chaoslawful__ nop...
09:28 sunnavy oh, it's horrible.
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09:30 evanl chaos, do you always come here?
09:32 sunnavy aha, this's my first time to talk to evanl and chaos here
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14:51 gaal moose
14:55 lumi Elk
14:57 gaal caribou!
14:58 * offby1 glances around nervously.
14:58 offby1 mouse!
14:58 offby1 <Kock>how'm I doing?</Koch>
14:58 gaal you're emitting invalid XML
15:00 offby1 so I am.
15:00 offby1 s/k/h/
15:00 offby1 good thing you're an accepting parser
15:00 gaal (Is that supposed to be Kenneth Koch, of Variations on a Theme by William Carlos Williams fame?)
15:00 gaal tag souffle
15:01 offby1 nope, it's supposed to be Ed Koch, mayor of New York in the '80s (?) who was known for asking strangers on the street "How'm I doing?"
15:01 offby1 His catch-phrase as Mayor was "How'm I doing?" When walking down the street, he would often use that question as a greeting to the people he talked to.
15:01 offby1 -- http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Koch
15:01 lambdabot Title: Ed Koch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
15:01 gaal 80ies eh? I bet he got "ballsy but about to get mugged" a lot
15:03 lumi The good ol' days
15:08 offby1 NYC mayors get mugged rarely, what with the bodyguards and all
15:10 gaal I was about to wonder out loud when the practice of retaining bodyguards started and then I realized it was obviously much older than US politics.
15:10 offby1 "In mid-1976, he was threatened with murder by Uruguayan secret police. "
15:11 lumi Way to blow your cover, guys
15:15 daxim_ Koch is also the alter ego of Kosh, along with Karsh.  "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote." http://google.com/search?q=sit​e%3Atruemeaningoflife.com+koch
15:15 lambdabot Title: site:truemeaningoflife.com koch - Google Search
15:15 * offby1 stares blankly
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18:15 diotalevi Is the reduce operator foldl or foldr depending on the associativity of the base operator?
18:20 Tene diotalevi: haskell?
18:21 diotalevi Oh sorry, Perl 6.
18:21 |Jedai| eval: [-] [5..7]
18:21 buubot |Jedai|: Error: syntax error at eval line 1, near "-]"  
18:21 diotalevi I forget Perl 6 also strongly implies Haskell these days.
18:21 Tene ?eval [*] 1..10
18:22 evalbot_r16674 changed the nick to evalbot_r16675
18:22 evalbot_r16675 3628800
18:22 diotalevi Given [+] 1 .. 3, does that mean ((1+2)+3) or (1+(2+3)) always or does it vary depending on the associativity of the operator being reduced?
18:23 Tene ?eval [say] 1..5
18:23 evalbot_r16675 Error: ␤Unexpected "1"␤expecting operator
18:23 moritz Tene: say is a method, not an op
18:23 * Tene nods
18:24 diotalevi Also, does reduce only work for unary and binary operators?
18:24 rhr diotalevi: it uses the associativity of the operator
18:24 moritz diotalevi: how would reduce with an unary operator?
18:24 |Jedai| I can't think of a right associative operator right now (brain-dead after a feast)
18:24 Tene ?eval sub infix:<foo> { say $^a,'->',$^b; return $^a + $^b }; 5 foo 6
18:24 evalbot_r16675 OUTPUT[->␤] 0
18:24 rhr ** is right assoc
18:25 Tene ?eval sub infix:<foo> { say $^a,'-> $b; return $a + $b }; 5 foo 6
18:25 evalbot_r16675 Error: ␤Unexpected end of input␤expecting "\\", variable name or "'"
18:25 |Jedai| No, in Pugs it isn't
18:25 diotalevi So can I override the associativity? Perhaps I cared to be foldr instead of foldl or whatever.
18:25 Tene ?eval sub infix:<foo> ($a,$b) { say "$a,-> $b"; return $a + $b }; 5 foo 6
18:25 |Jedai| ?eval 1**5**6
18:25 evalbot_r16675 OUTPUT[5,-> 6␤] 11
18:25 evalbot_r16675 1
18:25 Tene ?eval sub infix:<foo> ($a,$b) { say "$a,-> $b"; return $a + $b }; [foo] 1..3
18:25 evalbot_r16675 OUTPUT[1,-> 2␤3,-> 3␤] 6
18:25 rhr ?eval [**] 2..4
18:25 Tene ?eval sub infix:<foo> ($a,$b) { say "$a->$b"; return $a + $b }; [foo] 1..6
18:25 evalbot_r16675 2417851639229258349412352/1
18:26 evalbot_r16675 OUTPUT[1->2␤3->3␤6->4␤10->5␤15->6␤] 21
18:26 |Jedai| Sorry, it is
18:26 Tene How to specify associativity on an operator?
18:27 |Jedai| Ok, [**] is foldr
18:27 |Jedai| foldr infix:<**>
18:29 * diotalevi imagines a list of values where + is left associative for some and right associative for others.
18:31 rhr Tene: is assoc<whatever> (in S06)
18:32 rhr S06:1609
18:32 Tene ?eval sub infix:<foo> is assoc<right> ($a,$b) { say "$a->$b"; return $a + $b }; [foo] 1..6
18:32 evalbot_r16675 Error: ␤Unexpected "<right"␤expecting trait or block
18:32 Tene ?eval sub infix:<foo> is assoc('right') ($a,$b) { say "$a->$b"; return $a + $b }; [foo] 1..6
18:32 evalbot_r16675 OUTPUT[5->6␤4->11␤3->15␤2->18␤1->20␤] 21
18:33 Tene diotalevi: that a good example?
18:33 Tene rhr++
18:33 diotalevi Tene, of mixed associative operator? No.
18:34 Tene diotalevi: no, of reduce with a right-associative operator
18:34 diotalevi But that's ok. fold[lr]ness for a reduction is a property of the operator plus the data.
18:35 * diotalevi supposes this might mean a programmer can't look at code and know whether he is getting foldl or foldr because perl is notorious for allowing values to be crazy reality bending things.
18:35 * diotalevi wouldn't normally expect reality bending values though.
18:36 Tene junctions!
18:37 rhr I don't see how the data can affect the associativity
18:39 |Jedai| rhr : Can't a multi variant of an operator have different associativity ?
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18:40 |Jedai| rhr: I would rather it can't but ...
18:40 diotalevi 0, 1, 2.5, 3 is a list of four elements, three ints and one float. Perhaps float's + or int's + operator's associativity were defined differently.
18:40 rhr I guess it could, that be pretty crazy :)
18:40 |Jedai| I don't remember the Synopsys section
18:40 rhr *would be
18:41 |Jedai| I think consistent associativity should be enforced for all multi variant
18:41 * diotalevi shrugs. Why?
18:42 diotalevi You can't allow someone to shoot their own foot off?
18:42 |Jedai| Because it's too confusing and you can use two different operators instead ?
18:42 diotalevi "too confusing" is an illegal statement in perl.
18:42 diotalevi I think.
18:42 moritz perl has always given you more than enough rope to hang yourself, your neighbour and his whole family
18:42 rhr of course you could specify list or chain associativity and do whatever you want internally
18:42 |Jedai| diotalevi: I can if it really brings more power to the knowledgable perlist
18:42 moritz if you want to ;)
18:43 * diotalevi is in the "write more rope" camp of perl.
18:43 |Jedai| changed the nick to jedai
18:43 diotalevi changed the nick to jjore
18:44 jjore With infinite mutability comes freaking infinite power. Or something.
18:44 moritz infinit rope through infinite lists! YaY!
18:44 jjore Yay!
18:45 * jjore salts his white fish and potato and lutefisk with the darkest magics. It's good seasoning.
18:46 * jjore was just thinking of bland and white foods.
18:46 jjore tre Norwegian.
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18:51 * jjore has an even better idea. Evaluating the infix:+ operator replaces the implementation of the infix:+ operator with the same thing but opposite associativity.
18:51 jjore You know, just to be evil.
18:52 * jjore demurs slightly. Ok, not the + operator, make it the foo operator.
18:55 jjore ?eval sub infix:<foo> is assoc('right') ($a,$b) { eval q[sub infix:<foo> is assoc('left') ($a,$b) { return $a + $b }]; return $a + $b }; [foo] 1..3
18:55 evalbot_r16675 6
18:56 jjore k... now to get delayed expressions.
18:56 jjore ?eval sub infix:<foo> is assoc('right') ($a,$b) { eval q[sub infix:<foo> is assoc('left') ($a,$b) { return sub { $a + $b } }]; return sub { $a + $b }}; [foo] 1..3
18:56 evalbot_r16675 sub {Syn "block" {App &infix:+ (: Var $a, Var $b)}}
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18:57 jjore ?eval sub infix:<foo> is assoc('right') ($a,$b) { eval q[sub infix:<foo> is assoc('left') ($a,$b) { return sub { $a + $b } }]; return sub { $a + $b }}; ([foo] 1..3).Dump
18:57 evalbot_r16675 Error: No such method in class Sub: &Dump
18:57 Limbic_Region try ~() or .perl
18:57 jjore ?eval sub infix:<foo> is assoc('right') ($a,$b) { eval q[sub infix:<foo> is assoc('left') ($a,$b) { return sub { $a + $b } }]; return sub { $a + $b }}; ([foo] 1..3).perl
18:57 evalbot_r16675 "sub \{Syn \"block\" \{App \&infix:+ (: Var \$a, Var \$b)}}"
18:57 Limbic_Region that didn't do what I expected
18:57 * jjore wants dmq's DDS.
18:58 gaal remoose
18:58 gaal jjore: the zero is also a property of the op
18:58 gaal and re:scope of the associativity... it's basically lexical
18:59 jjore "the zero is also a property of the op?"
18:59 gaal like basically all weird effects in Perl 6
18:59 gaal ?eval my @a = (); [+] @a
18:59 Limbic_Region happy Father's day to all that fit the category
18:59 gaal "zero" of infix:<+> == 0
19:00 gaal I misread that as happy feather day
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19:00 gaal ?eval my @a = (); [*] @a
19:00 evalbot_r16675 1
19:00 gaal "zero" of infix:<*> == 1
19:00 Limbic_Region infix * is smart
19:00 gaal not smarter than other ops.
19:01 jjore Oh, right.
19:01 Limbic_Region well, there is a difference between, knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence
19:02 * jjore is somewhat hoping weird effects aren't required to be lexical. Global world changing weirdness is a wonderful thing.
19:02 gaal jjore: since you used haskellish terminology: Perl unifies foldr/foldl, and almost also scanr/scanl
19:02 Limbic_Region looks like the parrot squad is really close to having the perl 6 sanity tests passing
19:02 moritz yes, indeed
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19:02 jjore I er... was speaking other list based languages at that moment. I still don't mean Haskell when I say fold.
19:02 gaal there was a beautiful while where [] in list context was a scan
19:03 jjore What is scan?
19:03 gaal oh, okay.
19:03 gaal scan ("produce" rather than "reduce" in longhand in Perl 6) is keep intermediate values
19:03 gaal ?eval [\+] 1, 2, 3
19:04 evalbot_r16675 (1, 3, 6)
19:04 jjore foldl is much more likely to mean Oz to me right now and almost never any of you.
19:04 jjore I've been reading the CTM book recently http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html.
19:04 lambdabot Title: Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming
19:06 jjore It covers much more concurrency, various styles of declarative programming, and various kinds of search.
19:06 gaal sounds interesting, thanks for the link!
19:07 jjore I spent $50 of my employer's money and for me... well worth it.
19:07 jjore You do have to get over the idea of looking at lots of Oz code though.
19:08 jjore And if you want to use the Oz IDE you also have to use Emacs. It's what it was implemented in.
19:08 jjore s/Oz IDE/Mozart IDE/. Oz is the language, Mozart is an implementation.
19:09 gaal oh, for a minute there I thought the content was available online :/
19:09 jjore No, sorry.
19:10 jjore There is a wiki though.
19:10 jjore The US edition is $70, the eastern economy edition is $50.
19:10 cj happy fathers' day, fathers :)
19:10 jjore I opted for cheap. The pages are kind of thin though. One of my co-workers said it'd make it unreadable for him. I haven't noticed.
19:14 meppl good night
19:15 * Limbic_Region has a project he would like to do in Mozart or Alice but will likely end up writing it in Java since he hasn't the time to learn either one
19:17 rindolf Hi all.
19:17 rindolf Hi gaal
19:17 jjore What's the project?
19:18 Limbic_Region perfect order magic cube of 10
19:20 Limbic_Region its like a magic square on steroids
19:22 jjore Oh, that.
19:24 Limbic_Region Between work being crazy lately, going to be a Dad again, and dealing with Jean's immigration stuff - I haven't had any free time for some time now
19:25 jjore The point to using Oz (or Alice, I suppose) would be to get the don't-know non-determinism search mechanism or to get good concurrency.
19:25 Limbic_Region mostly the good concurrency
19:25 Limbic_Region but also because the idea for reducing the search space is constraint programming
19:25 jjore So then if its the concurrency you're after there's also Erlang.
19:26 * jjore doesn't know any of Erlang, Alice, or Standard ML.
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19:27 Limbic_Region well, from what I have read of Alice, it is very similar to Mozart but does the concurrency for free plus some extra bells and whistles
19:28 * Limbic_Region is sure you have seen it, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki​/Alice_programming_language
19:29 Limbic_Region so really the combination of constraint programming and concurrency
19:30 Limbic_Region what I would really like to have is the ability to describe a problem, provide the constraints I can think of, and have some tool spit out other constraints that must also be true that I hadn't thought of
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19:39 jjore "concurrency for free?"
19:39 jjore What's that?
19:41 Tene suggestions for API for "run this block, but kill it if it takes more than $num seconds to run"?
19:43 Tene perhaps a timeout parameter to 'do'?
19:54 * avar suggests alarm
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19:57 jjore That's two blocks.
19:57 jjore One to run indefinitely, the other to wait for the time period to elapse and kill the former.
20:27 jjore Does Perl 6 have anything to say about concurrency? I didn't see anything on http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html that was obvious.
20:27 lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
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20:28 moritz jjore: I think most of that is not yet specced
20:28 moritz jjore: there are just some things like auto-concurrency that are specced in some cases
20:29 jjore I'm aware that junctions have a little bit already requested.
20:29 jjore But beyond that...
20:29 Tene jjore: docs/Perl6/Spec/Concurrency.pod
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20:53 Aankhen`` Tene: That spec seems outdated, I think.
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20:53 Aankhen`` jjore: Perl 6 is slated to get the unified events & threads model <http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~​lipeng/homepage/unify.html> with STM on top.
20:54 Aankhen`` jjore: And, according to TimToady, the underlayer will have "Erlang-ish semantics". Whatever that means. :-)
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21:01 * jjore is quite happy to hear of Erlangish things happening.
21:02 jjore It likely means dataflow variables.
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