Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:58 BenjaminZou Hi, who took part in YACC yesterday?
02:01 postgre joined #perl6
02:05 Conrad YAPC?
02:06 postgre yes, yet another perl conference
02:06 * Conrad was in the morning session
02:06 BenjaminZou Yes, YAPC……
02:08 dolmans YAPC::Beijing, me.
02:09 dolmans if you say about it.
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02:15 BenjaminZou That's it.
02:19 postgre where is agentzh? I forgot to ask his ppt for YAPC yesterday
02:29 * amadeus have just come back from Beijing
02:29 * amadeus use the wrong id ..
02:29 amadeus changed the nick to laye
02:30 postgre amadeus, do you know where ahentzh upload his ppt  for YAPC?  
02:30 Tene 4amadeus
02:30 postgre ok will email agentzh
02:31 laye now amadues know as laye
02:31 laye i got his slides on my hiptop
02:32 bsb joined #perl6
02:32 laye i think agentzh is still at Beijing now
02:32 postgre can you share it
02:32 postgre somewhere on internet?
02:32 laye of course
02:32 postgre sure, i only know his email, forgot to ask his tel
02:34 laye i can email the sildes to u
02:35 postgre can you upload to a site like perlchina or www.yapc.org.cn?
02:36 laye sure
02:36 postgre thank you:-)
02:38 laye you are welcome
02:39 postgre or upload it as attachment at bbs.perlchina.org, so  that everyone can view it
02:43 postgre left #perl6
02:43 laye postgre: i'll ask agent himself to post it on bbs.perlchina.org, is it okay?
02:45 svnbot6 r16676 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : updated the Muldis-DB license to be the disjunction of the GPL v3 or later and the Affero GPL v3 or later
02:46 dduncan YAPC is now? ... looking ...
02:50 laye dduncan: YAPC::Beijing
02:51 dduncan I see now ... it seemed that the NA date was really close, but a bit later ... that explains it
02:52 dduncan looking further, there appear to be 3 YAPC in a row ... the Beijing, then NA, then Europe, each a week apart
02:53 dduncan or the last is just a planning meeting
02:53 dduncan no matter
02:53 dduncan (was looking at http://yapc.org )
02:53 lambdabot Title: YAPC
02:53 laye wow
02:53 laye wanna see YAPC::NA :-)
02:54 dduncan I want to as well, but I can't go this year
02:54 dduncan hopefully next year
02:55 laye me 2
02:55 laye not really going this year
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08:55 riffraff hi
08:57 Tene Hi!
09:00 mico_ hi!
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09:22 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org/
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09:46 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org/ | http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
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10:40 spinclad ?eval [~] <m ỏỏ se>
10:41 evalbot_r16675 changed the nick to evalbot_r16676
10:41 evalbot_r16676 "mỏỏse"
10:42 spinclad [moose with coathangers]
10:42 moritz mosse!
10:42 moritz does gaal hilight on moose?
10:42 moritz @seen gall
10:42 lambdabot I haven't seen gall.
10:42 moritz @seen gaal
10:42 lambdabot I saw gaal leaving #perl6 and #haskell 9h 44m 11s ago, and .
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12:16 fglock updated http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2​007/06/kindaperl6_proj.html
12:16 lambdabot Title: Pugs: "KindaPerl6" project roadmap
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12:33 moritz fglock: If you want to link to a version of the roadmap that gets updated when you edit the .pod file in the repository, consider linking here instead: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs​/v6/docs/kp6-roadmap.pod.html
12:33 lambdabot Title: kp6-roadmap
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12:33 moritz fglock: if you want to link to an immutable version, the old link is just fine
12:33 fglock moritz: I'll update - thanks!
12:33 moritz fglock: or I could redirect from the old to new one if you don't want to change the link but get the new version
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12:34 fglock hmm - redirecting is better, because the blog is copied to several other places
12:34 moritz ok, I'll make redirect then
12:35 moritz btw you created 833 hits so far
12:35 fglock nice - I wished people give more feedback
12:36 fglock I need a project review
12:37 |Jedai| joined #perl6
12:37 moritz I'm certainly interested, but the project looks somewho scary (and I guess I'm not the only one who thinks so)
12:38 moritz fglock: maybe you could write something very concrete like "look at file $foo.pm: this is the perl emitter. Please write the same file as $bar.pm so that it emmits $lang"
12:38 moritz and a few hints how to do that
12:38 moritz and once people start working on it, the will look at the broader picture
12:45 fglock moritz: my problem is with the "broader picture" itself - I wished more people could review the general idea, before putting more work in the details
12:46 moritz fglock: you should say that in the (or a new) blog post
12:47 fglock you are right - I didn't say that
12:47 moritz and perhaps start a discussion on perlmonks.org
12:47 moritz and if you are crazy, you ask on ask.slashdot.org for comments ;)
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13:03 moritz @tell agentzh I converted your chinese translation of S01 to HTML using Pod::Tree::HTML, and the output is horribly garbeled <http://moritz.faui2k3.org/pug​s/docs/zh-cn/syn/S01.pod.html> - do you know any pod2html converter that can handle your pod?
13:03 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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13:16 edenc cmarcelo: boo
13:16 fglock edenc: ola
13:17 edenc fglock: sup :)
13:17 edenc fglock: I've been looking at the kp6-roadmap
13:18 edenc fglock: using Moose on Milestone 1?
13:20 fglock edenc: you mean "phase I"? no, it's written in MiniPerl6
13:21 edenc fglock: phase III - milestone 1
13:22 edenc hmm
13:22 cmarcelo edenc, fglock: moose!
13:22 fglock that's MiniPerl6, too. It's actually finished
13:22 moritz moose!
13:22 edenc fglock: I read status: 'Not Started'
13:22 fglock I finihed milestones 1 and 2 already
13:22 fglock yes, the roadmap commit was lost
13:23 fglock cmarcelo: moose!
13:23 fglock edenc: I'll update it
13:24 cmarcelo what are you mooses upto recently?
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13:25 fglock cmarcelo: planning next kp6 version; and looking for ways to expand the team :)
13:27 fglock cmarcelo: also looking for a code review
13:27 svnbot6 r16677 | fglock++ | [kp6] updated roadmap with finished milestones
13:28 cmarcelo fglock: a code review?
13:28 fglock cmarcelo: s/code/architecture/
13:28 fglock http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/docs/kp6.jpg
13:30 * cmarcelo is hostage of a lab assignment: implementing altivec SIMD instructions in a PowerPC simulator... until semester ends. :-/
13:30 fglock cmarcelo: I wonder the architecture should be reused for 6-in-6, or can it be improved
13:30 cmarcelo fglock: oh, I remember (an old) a version of that diagram.
13:31 fglock yes, we worked on it in YAPC::SA
13:33 cmarcelo did you gather people interest since the blog post?
13:34 fglock cmarcelo: I guess people are waiting to be asked for specific contributions
13:34 fglock I'm working on it
13:36 cmarcelo moritz: re-moose, what you've been doing recently?
13:37 fglock I need the architecture review before making a detailed plan, because it will be harder to change it later
13:38 cmarcelo I see.
13:39 cmarcelo ?seen audreyt
13:39 lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6 and #haskell. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
13:39 cmarcelo @seen audreyt
13:39 lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6 and #haskell. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
13:40 cmarcelo :-(
13:41 thoughtpolice morning. :)
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13:50 cmarcelo oh, morning here too :)
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13:57 toyam hi
13:59 toyam fglock: does kindaperl6 run itself?
13:59 b_jonas joined #perl6
14:00 fglock toyam: not exactly - there are 3 separate systems: the compiler, the backend, and the language in which the compiler is written
14:01 fglock the backend is what 'runs' - it is the 'virtual machine'
14:01 fglock kp6 uses perl5 as the virtual machine
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14:02 toyam but not the compiler?
14:02 fglock the compiler is also compiled to perl5, and runs in perl5
14:02 toyam i would like to have a look at the AST to get a better idea of how it works
14:03 toyam how do i run kp6-dump-ast.pl
14:03 fglock one sec
14:05 fglock toyam: excuse me, I need to fix a library name first
14:06 toyam cool
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14:08 fglock toyam: perl  kp6-perl5.pl --ast < t/kp6/03-scalar.t | perltidy
14:08 gaal moritz: you moosed?
14:11 toyam fglock: thanks
14:11 svnbot6 r16678 | fglock++ | [kp6] kp6-dump-ast.pl is deprecated - use kp6-perl5.pl --ast instead
14:12 fglock toyam: you will notice a ' pad   => ..., ' node, which is a closure; it is not properly dumped yet
14:12 toyam okay, let me rephrase my first question: does kp6 compile itself?
14:15 fglock toyam: not yet - it is still compiled with a previous version, which was called mp6
14:16 fglock this allows kp6 to have unfixed bugs, which is good for development
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14:16 fglock s/unfixed bugs/unimplemented features/
14:17 toyam sounds like a plan
14:18 fglock mp6 is under v6/v6-MiniPerl6/
14:20 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
14:24 fglock toyam: there are 2 drawings under v6/docs/, showing the kp6 and mp6 internal architecture; you can start with mp6 which is simpler
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15:05 toyam fglock: what is the format of the AST dump?
15:05 toyam PIL2?
15:05 toyam is it documented?
15:07 fglock toyam: it is just an object tree; there is some documentation here: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6​/v6-MiniPerl6/miniperl6-ast.pod
15:08 toyam so if I wanted to add the missing Pad bit, where would I start
15:08 fglock kp6 ast has a few more details; this is the current spec (as Haskell code): http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/​src/Pugs/AST/CapInternals.hs
15:09 fglock toyam: you can start by copying the pod file to the kp6 directory
15:10 fglock hmm - Lit::Code already has pad
15:11 fglock toyam: it does need corrections
15:11 fglock toyam: do you have a pugs commit bit?
15:11 toyam nope
15:12 fglock please give me a mail address for sending an invitation
15:14 toyam in the docs dir?
15:14 fglock yes
15:18 fglock hmm - I can't login to http://invite.pugscode.org/
15:18 lambdabot Title: Login
15:19 toyam changed the nick to _toyam
15:20 _toyam changed the nick to toyam
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15:21 thoughtpolice fglock: if you can't get him an invite I think commitbit should be loaded for me
15:23 fglock thoughtpolice: yes, please
15:23 fglock I'll figure my problem later
15:23 lumi Maybe we need a cli for commitbit invites
15:23 obra ...we need feather to not have horrible IO issues :/
15:23 lumi That too
15:24 gaal I'm not managing to login either. /me cancels own request to prevent others' form thrashing...
15:24 obra I think it just let me log in
15:25 obra do we have an email for toyam?
15:25 gaal isn't a cli for commitbit invites "just" a RESTful post?
15:26 obra gaal: plus a login attempt, but I presumed that meant a local cli
15:26 thoughtpolice hm commitbit loaded for me fine.
15:26 obra anyway, I'm in just ine and could grant commit bits if anyone would like one today
15:27 gaal ah, that's something I always wondered about in Audrey's RHOX presentation.. where creds were hiding
15:27 rfordinal_athome joined #perl6
15:28 obra gaal: that depends on how you configure jifty
15:28 obra in general, we're using the authentication::password plugin, which does cookie auth
15:28 obra but we've also done HTTP basic
15:28 gaal I think POST (/usr/bin/POST that is) has HTTP basic
15:28 toyam joined #perl6
15:29 obra toyam: can you hand me an email address I can send a commit bit to?
15:29 REPLeffect joined #perl6
15:29 toyam sure, if i put it in the channel, will it show up on irc logs
15:29 toyam ?
15:30 b_jonas toyam: write it as a private message to obra
15:30 toyam sorry was having trouble registering my nick - sorted now
15:31 fglock lunch &
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15:44 svnbot6 r16679 | toyam++ | Added toyam (me).
15:44 svnbot6 r16680 | toyam++ | Added kp6 AST doc (from mp6).
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16:20 fglock toyam: that is the AST as returned by the grammar; it is further processed depending on what the backend language needs
16:21 moritz toyam++ # work on kp6/mp6
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16:22 fglock hmm - the regex AST is being processed too early; this could be refactored
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16:36 svnbot6 r16681 | fglock++ | [kp6] updated plan - the regex-to-procedural transformation should be done by
16:36 svnbot6 r16681 | fglock++ | an optional plugin; this will make it easier to reuse native regex libs (such as
16:36 svnbot6 r16681 | fglock++ | PGE for the Parrot backend, and PCR for the Perl 5 backend); the plain mp6 backend
16:36 svnbot6 r16681 | fglock++ | is still supported.
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17:39 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4]
17:40 gaal (golfing the haskell gives more room to document the purpose of the nopaste url)
17:40 moritz > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4]
17:40 lambdabot "42"
17:45 gaal of course, Perl doesn't need the show, so:
17:45 gaal ?eval reverse [*] 1..4
17:45 evalbot_r16676 changed the nick to evalbot_r16681
17:45 evalbot_r16681 "42"
17:46 Juerd wolverian: Please remove personal files from feather.
17:49 fglock I'm working on a request for review of kp6 architecture, which I want to send to the Perl 6 compiler lists. I'd like to send a first draft to some people to review the text.
17:51 gaal you want a review on the review request?
17:51 gaal I'd say off hand it's too long :)
17:52 fglock gaal: yes
17:52 fglock gaal: you mean the request should be short?
17:53 fglock I was planning to explain what kp6 is
17:53 moritz fglock: you can provide a link for those who don't know
17:54 b_jonas meh
17:54 moritz fglock: many perl6 hackers already now it, i presume
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17:54 gaal I think it should be short enough that you can Just Send It, because you want many people to Just Read It
17:54 b_jonas evalj: |.":!4
17:54 evalj b_jonas: 42
17:54 fglock gaal: makes sense
17:54 gaal and, well, of course, then respond to it :)
17:54 b_jonas evalj: |.":*/>:i.4 NB. in case you don't use the factorial operator
17:54 evalj b_jonas: 42
17:55 gaal evalj. oh my goodness
17:55 isaacd__ joined #perl6
17:55 b_jonas though I guess you can skip some whitespace from the perl and haskell ones as well
17:55 gaal anyone got an aplbot handy? put that good ol' unicode to use
17:56 gaal it's not good to shave whitespace off haskell, in general, because it can interfere with template haskell
17:56 b_jonas ?eval reverse [*] 1 +>> ^4
17:56 evalbot_r16681 Error: ␤Unexpected ">"
17:56 b_jonas ?eval reverse [*] 1 +<< ^4
17:56 evalbot_r16681 Error: ␤Unexpected end of input␤expecting block, "\\", variable name, ">>" or "<<"
17:56 b_jonas not shorter than 1..4 so doesn't matter
17:56 b_jonas ?eval reverse[*]1..4
17:56 gaal hmm why +<< though?
17:56 evalbot_r16681 Error: ␤Unexpected "1"␤expecting term postfix or operator
17:57 moritz b_jonas: I think hype operators on only one site of an op are NYI
17:57 gaal ?eval reverse [*] ^5
17:57 evalbot_r16681 "0"
17:57 gaal huh?
17:57 b_jonas gaal: that's why
17:57 gaal oh, 0..
17:57 b_jonas moritz: I see, thanks
17:57 b_jonas well,
17:58 b_jonas evalj: |. ": * / 1 + i. 4
17:58 evalj b_jonas: 42
17:58 b_jonas would probably translate to apl as 8 characters
17:58 b_jonas one for each word above
17:58 b_jonas and that's if you don't use factorial
17:58 gaal what's the reverse operator here, |. ?
17:58 b_jonas which I think at least some apls have
17:58 b_jonas yes, |. is reverse
17:59 b_jonas so
17:59 gaal is there a mnemonic for that?
17:59 b_jonas evalj: |. ": ! 4
17:59 evalj b_jonas: 42
17:59 b_jonas would prolly be 4
17:59 b_jonas but I don't know apl much
17:59 b_jonas gall: if you want mnemonics, use apl not an ascii language :)
17:59 b_jonas but | looks like a mirror
18:00 gaal heh, in that case I'd expect .|. to be reverse...
18:00 gaal brb
18:03 b_jonas apparently the apl equivalent of |. (reverse/rotate) is a circle with a vertical bar through that goes out of the circle on both sides
18:04 b_jonas but of course even more golf would be
18:04 b_jonas evalj: 42
18:04 evalj b_jonas: 42
18:04 b_jonas just two characters
18:06 gaal a circle with a vertical bar? that sounds like (1+sqrt(5))/2
18:06 gaal (phi)
18:07 gaal φ, U+03c6
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18:08 b_jonas yep
18:09 b_jonas it's called "circle stile" by an apl manual
18:09 b_jonas the character that is, not the function
18:10 rindolf Hi all.
18:10 rindolf Hi b_jonas
18:10 b_jonas hi
18:11 moritz helo ;)
18:11 rindolf Hi moritz
18:11 rindolf I'm now wrestling with Apache Ant and Apache fop.
18:11 rindolf On Mandriva cooker.
18:12 moritz brian d foy doesn't seems to to know that perl 6 filehandles autochomp ;)
18:12 moritz see http://use.perl.org/article.pl?s​id=07/06/18/1726249&amp;from=rss
18:12 lambdabot Title: use Perl | Learning Perl 6 by brian d foy
18:12 TJCRI_ changed the nick to TJCRI
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18:16 moritz and I don't know where he found the 'uniq' method
18:16 b_jonas moritz: in ruby?
18:16 moritz b_jonas: perhaps
18:16 moritz it's not in S29
18:19 gaal &uniq := sub { eval "nub" :lang<haskell> }
18:20 gaal (no, ffi doesn't really look like that)
18:20 gaal (though eval<haskell> does)
18:21 fglock gaal: may I send you my first draft?
18:22 gaal sure! got my email?
18:22 riffraff joined #perl6
18:22 fglock got it
18:22 * riffraff hi
18:24 gaal I got it too. Phone call right now but will read shortly.
18:25 fglock thanks!
18:31 moritz fglock: reply sent
18:32 fglock moritz: working on it
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18:47 fglock I'm afraid people will have to study kp6 deeply before commenting on design decisions; I wonder how to make this easier
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18:58 Juerd wolverian: Please gzip log files (~/.irssi)
18:58 Juerd fglock: It can be made easier by having more schematic specifications.
18:59 Juerd fglock: I once drew a quick visualisation of how the postfix whitespace rules work, and finally the person I drew it for understood why they were needed.
19:00 Juerd A table of operators, a table of sigils, are easier to grok than bullet point lists with full English sentences.
19:01 Juerd I once started a project for this, but quickly started lacking tuits.
19:01 Juerd Look for quickref.
19:01 fglock Juerd: I could make a higher level view of http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/docs/kp6.jpg
19:02 Juerd Views are needed at all levels.
19:02 Juerd We lack people with documentation skills and tuits :)
19:02 Juerd Nice diagram by the way!
19:03 Juerd What did you use to sketch that?
19:03 fglock it's OmniGraffle
19:03 Juerd Damn that prorietary single platform ultimately cool software! :)
19:04 |Jedai| changed the nick to jedai
19:04 fglock yes, unfortunately
19:04 Juerd Every time I see such a nice diagram, I ask people how they made it, and I think "Please don't say OmniGraffle... Please let it be something that runs under Linux"
19:04 Juerd And every time they say OmniGraffle :(
19:04 Juerd I'd pay for OG if it ran on Linux.
19:09 fglock gaal: you were right - "it's too long" - I'm getting there
19:11 gaal fglock: just finished the phone call and read the moosage - actually it doesn't seem too long now :)
19:11 Tene I have about a week free before I start my new job.
19:11 gaal will formulate some more response, give me a few minutes
19:11 Tene should have plenty of tuits.
19:11 fglock gaal: I have a longer version :)
19:12 gaal can you send it also pleasE?
19:12 gaal s/E/e/
19:12 fglock it is under editing - but I'll send it as-is
19:13 Tene dunno what I should moose on, though.
19:15 rindolf Can you guys check http://tmp.askask.com/2007/06/XML-RSS-1.30.tar.gz, please?
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19:24 fglock Tene: would you work on the kp6 project review?
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19:33 thoughtpolice hm, nice netsplit
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19:34 svnbot6 r16682 | fglock++ | [kp6] added 'hello.pl'
19:35 alindeman {Global Notice} Hi all .. as you've probably noticed, we lost a few servers there .. we're working on rerouting and getting them back .. sorry for the noise .. if you notice any issues around the network, please contact a staffer in /stats p or mail staff@freenode.net
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20:37 wolverian Juerd, the songs? done. sorry about that. they were ours though (our band, that is) :)
20:51 moritz fglock: your current draft is _much_ better than the first one ;)
20:51 fglock moritz: thanks for the help :)
20:52 moritz you're welcome
20:53 spinclad fglock: if you're still looking for pre-review, i'll take a look.
20:55 fglock spinclad: sent
20:55 spinclad thx
21:02 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
21:04 Caelum_ changed the nick to Caelum
21:11 gaal fglock: s/only question you have/only input you're interested in hearing/, in my email
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21:12 fglock gaal: ok
21:14 gaal hee, i just corrected a possible false impression about what false impression i think you should avoid, during a response to a request for review of a request for review.
21:15 moritz *LOL*
21:15 moritz gaal: would you mind if I add that line to my fortune file? *g*
21:15 spinclad sweet
21:16 gaal It would make me feel fortunate if you did
21:16 moritz [x] done
21:17 fglock heh
21:18 * gaal feels fortunate. and sleepy. no relation; but the immediate course of action is plotted.
21:19 * gaal waves :)
21:19 moritz sex? *SCNR*
21:19 moritz sleep well ;)
21:24 fglock home &
21:28 TJCRI joined #perl6
21:32 * Tene laughs.
21:32 Tene gaal++
21:32 Tene gaal++
21:34 Juerd wolverian: As a rule of thumb, assume that only plain text files/communication are allowed for non-perl stuff :)
21:35 Juerd wolverian: In other cases, if you really have no other option, ask me.
21:35 Juerd wolverian: It's not about copyright or anything, by the way :)
21:37 thoughtpolice Juerd: did you get my email (at all)?
21:37 Juerd thoughtpolice: Yes, got it
21:37 thoughtpolice Juerd: would they happen to be in russian?
21:38 Juerd thoughtpolice: Err... no. If you tried Russian, sorry, it didn't work :)
21:38 thoughtpolice Juerd: er, I meant the reply's
21:39 Juerd I hope not
21:39 Juerd RT is configured to send replies in Dutch and English
21:40 thoughtpolice I suppose that's what it is. :) i'm not much on being able to distinguish many foreign languages.
21:41 Juerd Russian has a different alphabet
21:41 Juerd They letters don't look like the ones we're using now.
21:41 Juerd Well, some do. But it's easy to see the difference
21:42 Juerd thoughtpolice: Check your mail
21:43 thoughtpolice Juerd: ah, thanks. :)
21:44 Juerd thoughtpolice: You're welcome :)
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22:05 wolverian Juerd, ah, okay. makes sense.
22:05 wolverian Juerd, I just tend to forget to remove stuff I've dcced :)
22:07 Juerd wolverian: dcc into a temp dir, and set up a cronjob?
22:08 wolverian not a bad idea
22:18 Psyche^ changed the nick to Patterner
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22:47 nothingmuch w/w 25
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23:28 buu buubot: echo 1+1
23:28 buubot 1+1
23:28 buu Whups.
23:29 Tene buubot: explode
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