Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:07 dduncan so, is anyone onsite for YAPC yet, and anything interesting to report?
02:07 dduncan YAPC NA that is
02:08 diakopter yeah - see #yapc on irc.perl.org
02:08 diakopter 70 folks at the pre-dinner
02:08 * diakopter is glad he left early; large storm rolling through H-town.
02:09 * Alias_ wishes he was at YAPC::NA :(
02:09 dduncan okay
02:10 diakopter dduncan: but to answer your 2nd question: better to ask on that other channel
02:11 dduncan sur'nuf
02:11 * dduncan wishes I was there too, but not this year
02:33 offby1 eww, pronoun agreement, people, please!
02:34 diakopter offby1: who was in error?
02:36 offby1 * dduncan wishes I was there too, but not this year
02:36 * offby1 mimes holding his nose
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02:51 spinclad and it would be nice if the subjunctive weren't a mood half crippled in its current use
02:52 spinclad (note: weren't, not wasn't)
03:01 spinclad (or rather, example: weren't v. wasn't)
03:03 * offby1 tries to close the worm can
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04:07 ibrown evenin.
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07:41 moritz re
07:42 Aankhen`` Rerere.
07:45 moritz what's up?
07:45 moritz judging from the logs I didn't miss much the last two days ;)
07:45 Aankhen`` Yeah, it's been quiet.
07:46 moritz most people are busy with yapc I guess
07:47 Alias_ yup
07:49 thoughtpolice hey moritz
07:50 moritz hi thoughtpolice ;)
07:50 moritz thoughtpolice: when will we read your next great article on perl 6?
07:52 moritz thoughtpolice: btw look at the subscription list of http://planetsix.perl.org/ ;-)
07:52 lambdabot Title: Planet Perl Six
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08:14 pmurias hi
08:19 Aankhen`` Oh, dang, I completely missed the last DIP6 entry.
08:21 pmurias what is DIP6?
08:21 Aankhen`` I just shortened Dive Into Perl 6.
08:23 Aankhen`` Wow, kp6 has a rather detailed roadmap.
08:29 pmurias it's a bit long term thought
08:45 thoughtpolice moritz: i saw. :)
08:45 thoughtpolice moritz: the next one's one rules, so it's going to be long; right now it looks like I might split it into two parts
08:45 thoughtpolice it would probably be done already if not for being somewhat busy and things being hectic
08:46 thoughtpolice but it'll get done. :)
08:46 thoughtpolice on a side note my new blog is done. weeee. now the server just needs python/web.py support :/
08:47 thoughtpolice considering it's roughly 4:00am here I might as well go ahead and work on it, though. :)
08:49 thoughtpolice i should probably update my pugs repo however.
08:58 moritz thoughtpolice: good to hear ;)
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09:05 thoughtpolice moritz: hopefully i'll try to get it out sometime this week. now that my blog is done (for now, basically v0.1) that takes one thing off my shoulders at least. :)
09:05 moritz thoughtpolice: ok, don't hurry ;)
09:07 thoughtpolice :)
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11:15 thoughtpolice moritz: funny enough, writing this takes much less longer than I initially thought. :) it'll probably be done later today (see: in maybe an hour or so?) if I keep going at this rate.
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11:25 moritz ;)
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11:49 thoughtpolice done. :)
11:49 thoughtpolice http://diveintoperl6.blogspot.c​om/2007/06/perl-6-round-4.html
11:49 lambdabot Title: Dive into Perl 6: Perl 6: Round 4
11:49 thoughtpolice like always, criticisms/annotations/complaints are welcome (well, I haven't gotten any real *complaints* yet...)
11:49 moritz thoughtpolice: I have to do some dish washing, after that I'll take a look
11:49 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
11:50 thoughtpolice moritz: ty. :)
11:50 thoughtpolice i'll be doing... something. i dunno.
11:50 thoughtpolice letting my hands rest
11:54 wolverian thoughtpolice, you have some apostrophe errors. search for 's for an example. :)
11:55 wolverian namely: grammar's, regex's (regexes), macro's.
11:58 pmurias thoughtpolice: shouldn't it be this is less complicated than it sounds in hypothetical variables paragraph?
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12:05 moritz thoughtpolice: I like your post... but of course you could do another one on rules
12:06 moritz thoughtpolice: for example explaining the difference between token and regex, a bit backtracking control (perhaps I'll understand it if you explain it ;), fail() and the like
12:07 thoughtpolice wolverian: i'm not exactly the best on usage of such things. :(
12:07 thoughtpolice moritz: that's what I'm thinking
12:08 thoughtpolice it might not be the next one I write, but that's where I think it'll go
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12:08 thoughtpolice I originally was going to split this one into two parts but I rewrote parts of it and got it into one part.
12:08 thoughtpolice pmurias: and yes, thanks. :)
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12:10 wolverian thoughtpolice, the rules are pretty simple. only use an apostrophe to mark either a contraction or a possessive.
12:11 thoughtpolice i knew I should have paid attention during those parts of english.
12:11 thoughtpolice but thanks. :)
12:11 wolverian you don't need lectures to remember those two rules, though! :) I hope...
12:11 wolverian (okay, I did.)
12:12 thoughtpolice well, I mean more in relation to parts of speech. i never really bothered with it, because i'm too much of a bum when it comes to such things.
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12:15 thoughtpolice moritz: don't worry though. so far I've pretty much planned for an 'unnofficial round 4b,' and I'm hoping it will cover much more of the magic than what I described in this one. we'll have to wait and see. :)
12:15 wolverian (there are some exceptions too; the possessive of "it" is "its", not "it's".)
12:15 thoughtpolice wolverian: i'll admit I know that one. :)
12:16 thoughtpolice it's probably just not evident most of the time, at least not to me.
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12:16 wolverian yeah, english could use some fixing rewriting
12:16 moritz wolverian: most languages could ;)
12:17 b_jonas its is like your and my
12:17 wolverian s/rewriting// # oh the irony
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12:17 b_jonas it's not really surprising
12:18 moritz wolverian: ;)
12:19 pmurias fglock: hi
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12:20 thoughtpolice in any case though, like I closed off, I'm currently at a loss about what to possibly write about next.
12:21 thoughtpolice if anybody has any recommendations, appreciation is coming your way. :)
12:23 pmurias fglock: are there any reasons for using the spelling Rul, or am i free to change it
12:23 pmurias ?
12:23 lidden is the Hypotetical variables example correct?
12:23 lidden s/person/z/ ?
12:24 thoughtpolice lidden: no, i suppose it isn't. thanks. :)
12:24 moritz there is an assignment missing
12:24 moritz or that way, right
12:29 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
12:30 fglock pmurias: hmm - looking
12:32 fglock no particular reason, it's ok to change
12:33 fglock pmurias: please svn up (svnbot is not working)
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12:35 moritz thoughtpolice: you could mention in your blog post that PGE is a fairly complete implementation of p6 rules
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12:45 pmurias fglock: svk pulled
12:45 pmurias nice commit
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12:54 pmurias checked in
12:58 pmurias is PCR faster then the current rule implementation in kp6?
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13:03 pmurias i could try to work on pluging in PCR, but i'm not sure what to do
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13:16 fglock pmurias: looking
13:17 fglock first thing is to copy Token.pm into (for example) RegexPCR.pm
13:18 fglock you can either recompile the regex from source, or transform the AST (better)
13:18 fglock and then call the PCR emitter
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13:20 fglock this doesn't look good - we would need a new AST node for the Perl 5 code generated by PCR
13:21 fglock probably just do ::Apply eval('source', 'Perl5')
13:22 args ::Apply and not Thanks::Apply ?
13:22 args that's rude
13:22 fglock args: :)
13:22 fglock pmurias: we need something that scale to other backends
13:24 fglock subclassing EmitPerl5 is probably better
13:24 fglock just redefine ::Token
13:27 fglock pmurias: re PCR faster, I don't think so
13:29 fglock PCR-in-perl5regex would be much faster, but it's incomplete
13:30 pmurias &
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13:38 pmurias b
13:39 pmurias what would be the benefits of using PCR instead of the curent rule engine?
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13:46 fglock_ and it makes possible to skip "phase 3" in the roadmap
13:47 fglock_ (repeating) pmurias: it would help test the compiler extensibility,
13:47 fglock_ and it makes possible to skip "phase 3" in the roadmap
13:49 fglock_ s/skip/move out of the critical path/
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13:54 fglock_ pmurias: using PCR would be for the short-term only; in the long term, 6-in-6-regex should replace PCR entirely
13:56 fglock_ pmurias: sorry if I don't give you direct answers - I'm thinking aloud
13:57 pmurias np
13:57 pmurias :)
13:58 fglock_ pmurias++  # making the right questions
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13:59 pmurias lunch and moving the server&
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15:38 pmurias meppl: gaga
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15:40 mncharity lol
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17:10 diakopter $YAPC::NA::2007::TPF::OnPerl6 = "We *want* to believe in Perl 6 [emphasis original], but .... there is some debate about whether it will ever end up working";
17:16 b_jonas sure it will
17:16 b_jonas it's coming out all right
17:16 b_jonas at most the specs won't contain all the features of the S-es
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17:17 b_jonas but it will be working
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17:19 diakopter b_jonas: he meant "work" as in "succeed as a strategy/initiative for revitalizing/rescuing Perl as a community/entity/project", or similar.
17:21 b_jonas well, that sort of depends on how much the compatibility with perl5 and other existing languages will wokr
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17:21 b_jonas how's yapc btw?
17:24 beppu What's the IRC channel for this year's YAPC?
17:26 Aankhen`` I thought `token foo { ... }` is like `regex foo { ^ ... }` except that ^ refers to the position at which you start matching rather than the actual beginning of the string.
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17:29 PerlJam Aankhen``: er, no.  token just never backtrack like regex would.
17:31 diakopter beppu: irc.perl.org#yapc
17:33 beppu diakopter: thanks
17:33 Aankhen`` PerlJam: I guess I misunderstood.
17:33 Aankhen`` I'll try and figure out what it means to backtrack or not to backtrack later.
17:35 PerlJam regex is "normal",  token is regex + :ratchet (no backtracking under normal circumstances), and rule is regex + :ratchet + :sigspace (whitespace lexically between portions of your RE actually match whitespace in your stream)
17:35 Aankhen`` Yes, I'm just not sure what it means to backtrack vs. not backtrack.
17:36 PerlJam Aankhen``: backtracking is just about trying alternatives when the "tail" end of the regex fails to match.  You back up and try the next alternative (if there is one)
17:37 Aankhen`` I have to run for now, but I shall have more questions later. :-)
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18:15 diakopter svnbot6 and specbot6 resurrected
18:16 diakopter ?eval say "hi"
18:21 pasteling "evalbot_r16715" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25780
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18:22 diakopter ?eval say "hi"
18:22 evalbot_r16715 OUTPUT[hi␤] Bool::True
18:22 diakopter specbot6, svnbot6, and evalbot daemonized/supervized on feather, now.
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19:57 Aankhen`` PerlJam: Do you feel able to give me an example of where backtracking would make a difference?
19:58 Tene http://gbracha.blogspot.com/2007/06/​constructors-considered-harmful.html
19:59 lambdabot Title: Room 101: Constructors Considered Harmful, http://tinyurl.com/22uthq
19:59 Aankhen`` Have you read q/"Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful/? <G>
20:00 offby1 Room 101?!  Do it to Julia!
20:00 Aankhen`` offby1: Quiet you.
20:00 wolverian that's actually an interesting issue.
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20:04 [particle] Aankhen``: consider the regex /x+xy/. in order for it to match 'xxy', it first eats both 'x' during the  'x+' portion of the match.
20:04 devbot6 dev: Ticket #25 (defect closed): dmqnujxc <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/25#comment:1>
20:04 [particle] Aankhen``: but it fails, because it can't find another 'x' after the two it's eaten. so, it backtracks, and tries matching the 'x+' with 'x'.
20:05 [particle] then the 'xy' in the pattern matches 'xy' in the string
20:05 Aankhen`` [particle]: Right.
20:06 [particle] so token xxy { x+ xy } will never match anything
20:06 [particle] (no backtracking)
20:06 [particle] x+ matches all the 'x', and can't go back and try one less
20:06 Aankhen`` Ah.
20:06 Aankhen`` So where is that useful
20:06 Aankhen`` ?
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20:07 [particle] well, it's useful for matching tokens in grammars (hence the name)
20:08 Aankhen`` Yes, but I seem to be missing how it's more useful to say `token foo { bar | baz }` vs. `regex foo { bar | baz }`. (Sorry for being so obtuse. :-\)
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20:11 * riffraff hi
20:11 Aankhen`` …come to think of it, I guess `token foo { bar | baz }` would never match "baz", would it?
20:12 TimToady sure it can
20:12 TimToady | does longest token now
20:12 TimToady for that example there's basically no difference between token and regex
20:12 Aankhen`` Oh, durr.
20:12 Aankhen`` The backtracking applies to the quantifiers/
20:12 Aankhen`` s|/|?|
20:12 TimToady yup
20:13 Aankhen`` I see.
20:14 * [particle] returns
20:14 [particle] thanks for picking up where i left off, TimToady
20:14 diakopter (authentication and cookies on pugs' trac site now/again work as they are intended)
20:14 TimToady diakopter++
20:14 diakopter (also, devbot6 is alive, daemonized, and monitored on feather)
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20:15 diakopter TimToady: see specbot6, svnbot6, devbot6, and evalbot6 in /service/ on feather - mostly used ~larry/*bot
20:16 ibrown dumb question, but what's this mean:
20:16 ibrown (04:12:52 PM) Aankhen``: The backtracking applies to the quantifiers/
20:16 ibrown (04:12:54 PM) Aankhen``: s|/|?|
20:16 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar { }; class Baz { }; (::Foo, ::Bar, ::Baz).pick(1).new.WHAT
20:16 evalbot_r16715 ::Array
20:16 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar { }; class Baz { }; (::Foo, ::Bar, ::Baz).pick(1)
20:17 evalbot_r16715 (::Bar,)
20:17 Aankhen`` Oh.
20:17 TimToady hmm
20:17 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar { }; class Baz { }; (::Foo, ::Bar, ::Baz).pick(1)[0].WHAT
20:17 evalbot_r16715 ::Foo
20:17 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar { }; class Baz { }; (::Foo, ::Bar, ::Baz).pick(1)[0].WHAT
20:17 evalbot_r16715 ::Baz
20:17 Aankhen`` Kewl.
20:17 Aankhen`` So much factory classes? :-D
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20:21 Aankhen`` Okay, is `token` simply for reasons of efficiency, then?
20:22 Randal Oh yeah, i guess this channel will be quiet because everyone's at YAPC. :)
20:24 TimToady Aankhen``: notational convenience and communication of intent, primarily
20:24 Aankhen`` Mmm, mmm, mmm.
20:24 Aankhen`` And furthermore, mmm.
20:24 offby1 quiet,  you.
20:24 * Aankhen`` whines.
20:25 * offby1 bleats
20:25 Aankhen`` Now you're just being silly.
20:25 offby1 never.
20:25 TimToady I'm never silly...
20:26 Aankhen`` TimToady: You're missing out.
20:26 diakopter TimToady is also never sarcastic
20:26 [particle] no, really?!?!
20:26 Aankhen`` Absolutely.
20:27 Aankhen`` ibrown: I was just confirming that the backtracking controls only apply to the quantifiers, e.g. *, +, ?
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20:28 TimToady and **{$m..$n}
20:28 Aankhen`` I always figured "e.g." was "for example". <G>
20:28 Aankhen`` Come to think of it, my mother told me once that it used the be the other way around.
20:28 TimToady I was adding another e.g.  :)
20:28 Aankhen`` Bah.
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20:29 Aankhen`` My examples need no annotation!
20:30 * diakopter considers how to better structure the pugs svn repo (noting things such as /INSTALL and /INSTALL.v6-alpha and the disambiguating line in /INSTALL.v6-alpha)
20:31 * diakopter waits for bright ideas
20:34 * TimToady almost never has bright ideas about this "structure" concept...
20:35 Aankhen`` thoughtpolice: One suggestion for the post. Instead of "In perl 6 rules, like perl 5 regexes, you have a lot of special characters you can use inside your rules for specific purposes", you might want to mention that all non–word characters are metasyntactic.
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21:01 meppl good night
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21:23 Aankhen`` moritz: Ping.
21:24 Aankhen`` Er, actually, un-ping.
21:24 Aankhen`` Sorry.
21:28 offby1 if you love a ping ... set it free
21:30 * Aankhen`` reluctantly lets go of the ping.
21:32 devbot6 dev: Ticket #23 (defect closed): zoeoxpip <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/23#comment:1>
21:32 nwc10 ping ping ping ping pig
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22:07 Aankhen`` moritz: Ping for real.
22:10 willy_nelson The shaving
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22:35 Aankhen`` Whoops. o_O
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22:36 pasteling "evalbot_r16715" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25797
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23:29 Aankhen`` moritz: svn up when you get the chance.  I did a bit of fiddling with the CSS and HTML.
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23:30 Aankhen`` (For IrcLog, natch.)
23:31 Aankhen`` Comments welcome. :-)
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