Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 |Jedai| changed the nick to jedai
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01:16 avar Aankhen``: *slap*
01:16 * Aankhen`` spontaneously combusts for avar's pleasure.
01:17 avar woohoo
01:18 rlb3 joined #perl6
01:19 offby1 do it again!
01:19 * Aankhen`` spontaneously combusts again, for offby1's pleasure.
01:19 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
01:19 offby1 Ashes that burn.  Neat trick.
01:19 * offby1 applauds
01:19 Aankhen`` …and before you ask, I'm all burnt out for now.
01:20 * offby1 slaps Aankhen`` upside the haid
01:20 Aankhen`` Ouch.
01:20 offby1 let that be a lesson to you
01:20 Aankhen`` A lesson in what, exactly?
01:20 offby1 the evil of puns.
01:20 offby1 Eeevil
01:21 Aankhen`` Embrace the puns.  Come to the dork side.
01:21 jedai joined #perl6
01:21 offby1 my hand is gonna be sore from slapping
01:22 avar You and your euphemisms
01:22 offby1 you and your single entendres
01:22 avar heh:)
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01:27 Aankhen`` Bahaahahaaahahaha.
01:29 Aankhen`` Well, I'm off.  College exam on VB. *shudders*
01:29 weinig joined #perl6
01:30 offby1 yikes
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01:38 pasteling "evalbot_r16741" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25819
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02:45 diakopter anyone want an svn commit account?
02:47 pasteling "evalbot_r16741" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25821
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02:50 offby1 diakopter: don't just _give_ it away, silly; _auction it off_
02:51 * diakopter places SUDO ALL rights on feather up for bid.... ;)
02:58 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
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03:13 * offby1 bids $1
03:14 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
03:14 diakopter sry; bidding closed already. :(
03:14 offby1 who won? who won?
03:15 offby1 second chance offer!
03:15 diakopter can't say.  some script kiddie...
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03:32 Tene What's up with the spam attacks on the channel and on timtoady?
03:34 offby1 ?
03:34 offby1 wasn't me.
03:34 offby1 Nobody saw me.  You can't prove a thing.
03:40 SamB Tene: some idiot thinks it's fun?
03:42 Tene I'm just confused by the target.
03:57 Aankhen`` offby1: So you *think*.
03:58 * offby1 glances around nervously.
03:58 Aankhen`` For all you know we've been watching you.
03:58 Aankhen`` That innocent-looking bulb?  That could actually be a hidden camera.
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04:19 offby1 eek!
04:19 offby1 I just planted that last month.  You're saying my onions are _spying_ on me?
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04:24 Aankhen`` offby1: No, of course not. I'd never say something like that.
04:25 Aankhen`` …on the other hand, I'm not saying they *aren't* spying on you either.
04:25 * Aankhen`` wonders if *foo* => <i>foo</i> is a good idea.
04:25 offby1 I think Google Talk does just that
04:26 offby1 and _foo_ underlines
04:26 offby1 Victoria, BC?
04:27 * offby1 plays "guess the city"
04:30 svnbot6 r16742 | lwall++ | [STD] some work on parameter syntax, more fake ops to chide unwary P5 folks
04:31 offby1 hey!  I'm an unwary p5 folk.  I don't wanna be chid.
04:32 Aankhen`` Nyah, nyah, you've been chided.
04:32 Tene Aankhen``: no, that was just a hanging chide.
04:32 Aankhen`` Tene: Hmm?
04:33 Tene Aankhen``: US culture pun.
04:33 Tene "Hanging chad" referring to a recent presidential election.
04:34 Aankhen`` Ah.
04:37 diakopter offby1: <@TimToady> only like, if you use =~ instead of ~~, for instance...
04:40 allbery_b someone mentioned Chad Vader on another channel and I askjed if he was in charge of the Florida elections
04:41 Aankhen`` Very droll.
04:47 svnbot6 r16743 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] added `title` attribute to r?\226?\128?\166 links.
04:47 Aankhen`` Woo.
04:47 Aankhen`` svnbot6 did not like my commit message.
04:51 pasteling "evalbot_r16742" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25827
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05:11 dduncan offby1, you just named my place of birth, 45 mins ago ... but any other reason you brought it up
05:12 dduncan ?
05:12 offby1 dduncan: well, I /whois people to see where they are.  Aankhen``s record said something about "vn.shawcable.net", so I guessed Victoria, because it, too, has a "V" in it :-p
05:13 dduncan well, Victoria BC is about a half-hour drive from where I am/live right now
05:13 TimToady there's a Victoria here in Texas too
05:13 lambdabot TimToady: You have 75 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
05:13 offby1 yikes.
05:14 allbery_b eep.
05:14 dduncan shawcable is the local cable provider, and in much of Canada ... don't know much about other areas
05:14 daxim_ joined #perl6
05:14 allbery_b (yes, there is sych a thing as being too popular...)
05:14 diakopter TimToady: you actually have at least 1 real msg (from me; backlog to see it)
05:14 weinig joined #perl6
05:15 Tene TimToady: any idea why you're the target of this weird spammer?
05:15 meppl good morning
05:15 dduncan yes
05:17 weinig joined #perl6
05:18 TimToady I dunno; maybe he wants people to feel sorry for me :)
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05:19 diakopter an 'empathist', then?
05:20 diakopter er, pityist
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07:06 weirdo no call/cc in p6?
07:08 lumi Is specs.pugscode.org supposed to just go to the root of a pugs tree?
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07:09 Aankhen`` weirdo: Nope. You just use &?CALLER_CONTINUATION.
07:09 Aankhen`` weirdo: As in sub foo () { my $cont = &?CALLER_CONTINUATION; }
07:10 weirdo wow. gotta hone my contination skills!
07:10 Aankhen`` Or at least that's how it was last I heard.  I could be stuck in the past. :-)
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07:11 renormalist ?eval @moo = <1 2 3>; for @moo -> $i is copy { say $i++ }
07:11 evalbot_r16741 changed the nick to evalbot_r16743
07:11 evalbot_r16743 OUTPUT[1␤2␤3␤] undef
07:11 Aankhen`` If you really wanted, you could have a: sub callcc (&block) { &block.(&?CALLER_CONTINUATION); }
07:11 renormalist ?eval @moo = <1 2 3>; for @moo <-> $i { say $i++ }
07:11 evalbot_r16743 Error: ␤Unexpected ">"
07:13 lumi renormalist: ENOTIMPL I think
07:16 lumi Couldn't the caller continuation just be &return?
07:18 Aankhen`` Probably not… I doubt &return saves its environment.
07:18 Aankhen`` Er, did that even make any sense?
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07:21 lumi If I pass a block with a call to return in it, where would it return?
07:21 Aankhen`` The outermost function?
07:21 Aankhen`` Rather, the innermost function.
07:24 lumi So: sub foo { my $a = bar ({return 1}); $a + 1}; sub bar($x) { $x() + 15 }; foo #  returns 2?
07:24 lumi ?eval  sub foo { my $a = bar ({return 1}); $a + 1}; sub bar($x) { $x() + 15 }; foo
07:24 evalbot_r16743 2
07:24 lumi That's indeed what it does
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08:05 broquaint Why's that? Is $x treated like a block (instead of a sub)?
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08:13 lumi broquaint: I think so? Was I making up syntax?
08:14 lumi That's not actually a very good test, is it
08:14 lumi ?eval  sub foo { my $a = bar (-> $n {return $n + 1}); $a + 1}; sub bar($x) { $x(12) + 15 }; foo
08:14 evalbot_r16743 14
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08:21 broquaint So why does the anonymous sub leave &bar before the add op is evaluated (i.e the result isn't 29 as it is in Perl5 equivalent code)?
08:22 Aankhen`` ?eval  sub foo { my $a = bar (-> $n {leave $n + 1}); $a + 1}; sub bar($x) { $x(12) + 15 }; foo
08:23 evalbot_r16743 17.0
08:23 Aankhen`` Huh.
08:23 lumi Because, I think, just like Aankhen`` said, 'return' returns from the innermost sub
08:23 lumi Aankhen``: Huh?
08:23 lumi What even happened there?
08:23 Aankhen`` Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.
08:23 Aankhen`` Let me see.
08:24 Aankhen`` It's supposed to exit the anonymous sub, yielding a value of 13, which should then be added to 15, yielding a value to be returned to foo, ending up with 29.
08:25 Aankhen`` ?eval  sub foo { my $a = bar (-> $n {leave($n + 1)}); $a + 1}; sub bar($x) { $x(12) + 15 }; foo
08:25 evalbot_r16743 17.0
08:25 Aankhen`` I dunno.
08:25 Aankhen`` Here's what S04 says:
08:25 Aankhen`` A return always exits from the lexically surrounding sub or method definition (that is, from a function officially declared with the sub, method, or submethod keywords). Pointy blocks and bare closures are transparent to return. If you pass a closure object outside of its official "sub" scope, it is illegal to return from it. You may only leave the displaced closure block itself by falling off the end of it or by explicitly calling le
08:25 Aankhen`` To return a value from any pointy block or bare closure, you either just let the block return the value of its final expression, or you can use leave, which comes in both function and method forms. The function (or listop) form always exits from the innermost block, returning its arguments as the final value of the block exactly as return does. The method form will leave any block in the dynamic scope that can be named as an object an
08:25 lumi I don't understand what's happening there
08:26 Aankhen`` I have no idea how that code ended up with a result of 17.
08:26 lumi So passing a 'return' outside its legit lexical scope is an error?
08:26 Aankhen`` And how it became a floating-point number in the process.
08:26 Aankhen`` Apparently so.
08:26 lumi I don't follow "official sub scope"
08:26 lumi Is this lexical scope, or dynamic scope/extent?
08:26 Aankhen`` Not sure.
08:27 Aankhen`` Probably lexical scope, since it's defined to exit from the lexically surrounding sub/method.
08:27 lumi So passing it down even while still in dynamic scope would be an error
08:28 Aankhen`` I guess.
08:28 lumi This limits the kind of control structures you can write without macros, I guess
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08:29 Aankhen`` Well, say you have this: my $saved_block; sub foo () { bar(-> { return 1; }); }; sub bar ($block) { $saved_block = $block; }; foo(); $saved_block.()
08:29 Aankhen`` What should it do?
08:31 lumi That's definitely an error without full continuations
08:31 Aankhen`` So tweak it.
08:31 Aankhen`` Well, say you have this: my $saved_block; sub foo () { bar(); }; sub bar () { $saved_block = &?CALLER_CONTINUATION; }; foo(); $saved_block.()
08:32 Aankhen`` (Sorry, just hit the Up arrow and altered the code.)
08:32 lumi I think that's an infinite loop
08:32 Aankhen`` Is it?
08:32 Aankhen`` Doesn't it just throw away the value of bar()?
08:32 Aankhen`` Or rather, return it, since it's the last statement.
08:33 Aankhen`` Anyway, the point was, if you really want continuations, use continuations.
08:33 lumi The caller continuation is the entire rest of the program
08:33 Aankhen`` Oh yeah.  I kinda ignored that little detail. :-$
08:33 Aankhen`` I used to be intimidated by continuations.  Then I thought I understood them.  Then I was intimidated again.
08:33 lumi The dynamically scoped return is something much more limited
08:34 lumi Also it's something we use every day, if you can think of, say, for loops as subroutine calls
08:35 Aankhen`` Is the "it" there dynamically-scoped return or continuations?
08:35 lumi Sorry, the dynamically-scoped return
08:35 Aankhen`` Ah.
08:35 lumi You pass a block to &for, and expect its return to return from you
08:35 lumi Where you are a sub :P
08:36 broquaint Should a return in a pointy block throw some kind of warning/error?
08:36 Aankhen`` I'm sorry, that just isn't working for me. :-P
08:36 Aankhen`` broquaint: No, it should throw an error if it's passed outside its "official sub scope".
08:36 lumi ?eval sub foo { for 0..10 -> $x { return $x if $x > 5 } }; foo
08:36 evalbot_r16743 \6
08:37 broquaint And outside the official sub scope one would probably want &leave instead?
08:37 Aankhen`` broquaint: Yes.
08:37 lumi broquaint: With different meaning
08:37 Aankhen`` `leave` says "just leave the innermost block".
08:37 lumi leave leaves the block
08:37 Aankhen`` `return` says "leave the innermost (lexically-scoped) block".
08:37 Aankhen`` Um.
08:37 Aankhen`` s/block/sub or method/
08:37 lumi What he said :P
08:38 Aankhen`` He said, she said, can't we all just get along? :-P
08:38 lumi s/he/$gender_neutral_pronoun/
08:38 broquaint Aha, thanks, good to know there's nothing surprising there :)
08:41 lumi I'd go with "hän" but it's too much work to conjugate
08:44 Aankhen`` ?
08:45 lumi As a gender-neutral pronoun
08:45 Aankhen`` Ah.  I don't believe I've heard that before.
08:45 lumi They don't have genders in Finland, you see
08:45 Aankhen`` LOL.
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08:48 Aankhen`` moritz: Ping.
08:58 moritz Aankhen``: pong
08:58 Aankhen`` Hola.
08:59 Aankhen`` I'm spending some more time hacking on useless things: I want to stop abbreviations from being expanded multiple lines within the same line, but to do that I need to maintain per-line state.  Is it okay with you if each filter gets an extra hash for that?
09:00 moritz Aankhen``: it's a good idea...
09:01 Aankhen`` Cool, I shall implement.
09:01 moritz Aankhen``: because it allows us to treat r(\d+) differently depending on the one how said it...
09:01 moritz because if specbot6 says it it means something different
09:01 Aankhen`` Right.
09:02 Aankhen`` Commited, try it out?
09:03 moritz wait a second...
09:03 svnbot6 r16744 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] pass state to output filters so we don't expand the same abbreviation more than once in a line.
09:05 moritz ok, server is at r16744
09:06 Aankhen`` Goddang.
09:06 Aankhen`` It didn't work.
09:06 moritz test: YAPC
09:07 Aankhen`` Okay, try again.
09:07 svnbot6 r16745 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] tweak to previous commit.
09:08 moritz what's that? a closure with a goto?
09:08 pasteling "evalbot_r16744" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25830
09:08 Aankhen`` Aye.
09:08 moritz it looks... scary
09:08 Aankhen`` Heh.
09:09 moritz why not just carry a hash of those abbreviations that were already applied in that line?
09:09 Aankhen`` In this case, it just simplifies the sub a bit.
09:09 Aankhen`` Hmm.
09:09 Aankhen`` Uh, hold on.
09:09 Aankhen`` I think I mixed up two designs.
09:10 svnbot6 r16746 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] more inanity fixing.
09:10 Aankhen`` Okay, new fix.
09:13 Aankhen`` Did your server just go down? o_O
09:13 svnbot6 r16747 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] normalize abbreviations in state too.
09:13 moritz test: YAPC YAPC IRC
09:13 Aankhen`` I can't seem to connect to it.
09:13 moritz seems to work ;)
09:13 moritz it works fine for me
09:14 Aankhen`` That's good.
09:14 Aankhen`` Yay, it works.
09:14 Aankhen`` For reference, I was testing with http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-04-24#id_l234
09:14 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-04-24, http://tinyurl.com/2xjg23
09:15 Aankhen`` By the way, I was wondering… what's the rationale behind showing joins but not quits or parts?
09:16 moritz I didn't know how to capture them when I implemented the bot
09:16 Aankhen`` Heh.
09:16 moritz now I have a second implementation using BasicBot that should work
09:17 moritz maybe I should kill the old bot and start the new one
09:17 Aankhen`` What do you mean?
09:18 moritz the new one does capture parts
09:18 Aankhen`` Oh, I see.
09:18 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4]
09:19 moritz damned, I just did it, and my server doesn't have BasicBot.pm installed
09:19 moritz I _knew_ there was a reason I ran the old one :(
09:19 Aankhen`` :-\
09:24 Aankhen`` moritz: Is your line.tmpl out of date?
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09:25 moritz md5sum line.tmpl
09:25 moritz 19987554527dcf67f6a00434ccf54b2d  line.tmpl
09:25 moritz should be up-to-date
09:26 Aankhen`` Your server doesn't seem to be putting classes on the message TDs, for some reason.
09:26 Aankhen`` (I added it to line.tmpl earlier.)
09:28 moritz <td class="msg">
09:28 moritz or what were you expecting?
09:28 Aankhen`` Yes, that's what it should be.
09:28 moritz well, that's what I get ;)
09:29 Aankhen`` Bleh, Firefox is really acting weird today.
09:30 Aankhen`` Okay, all there now.  Sorry for bothering you.
09:31 moritz np
09:32 Aankhen`` Do you use the class="time" on the timestamps for something?  Would it be a problem if it moved to the TD?
09:33 moritz the css for .time is commented out
09:33 moritz so I think you could remove it
09:33 Aankhen`` Cool.
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09:39 pasteling "evalbot_r16747" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25831
09:39 svnbot6 r16748 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] more abbrs; fixed a few cases where abbrs had optional characters, resulting in empty expansions.
09:39 svnbot6 r16749 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] CSS tweaks.
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09:42 Aankhen`` Okay, I should probably get to sleep.
09:42 * Aankhen`` snores.
09:42 Aankhen`` Ciao.
09:43 moritz g'night
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09:57 wolverian matlab has some interesting features. most of the core functions and operators are overloaded on collection types, so e.g. array+2 adds 2 to all elements, and find(array < 2) returns the indices of all the elements that are < 2. then again, that leaves you with a bunch of container-specific functions to replace the ones that bypass the container..
09:58 moritz but matlab is horrible to code, because the compiler catches no error at all
09:58 wolverian I don't think it compiles at all, but I could be wrong
09:58 wolverian it does weird on the load interpreting, anyway.
09:59 moritz or something, yes
09:59 wolverian running programs see changes on disk.
09:59 wolverian s/changes/changes in their code/
09:59 moritz for a research project I had to use it a lot, and it's just plain horror
09:59 wolverian but, yes, it's horrid to use, and I don't like the language itself either.
09:59 wolverian only good thing about matlab is the integration to various third party tools (pdl) and the great documentation system.
09:59 wolverian s/system/content/
10:00 moritz when I run a program, it runs for 45 minutes and then dies because I misstyped a variable name - d'oh!
10:00 wolverian for what it's worth, that's usually caugh by m-lint
10:00 wolverian ...variable 'foo' might never be used... or so
10:00 wolverian s/caugh/caught/
10:00 wolverian but only usually. :)
10:01 wolverian do you happen to know R? I was wondering how sane its language is compared to this.
10:01 moritz no ;)
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11:24 svnbot6 r16750 | agentz++ | converted S26.pod to UTF-8
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12:04 agentzh finally fixed the encoding of S26.pod...
12:04 lambdabot agentzh: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:04 agentzh @messages
12:04 lambdabot kolibrie said 21h 17m 26s ago: I did that by hand - having an automated way of doing it would certainly be nice
12:05 agentzh i thought S26 is already in UTF-8 but it was not.
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12:08 diakopter agentzh: again, oops/sorry :(
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12:10 agentzh diakopter: why? i believe it's my mistake
12:11 diakopter oh
12:11 diakopter I updated/synced that file yesterday from Perl6::Perldoc...
12:12 diakopter http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset?new=docs%2FPerl6%2FSpec%2FDocumentation.pod%4016740&amp;old=docs%2FPerl6%2FSpec%2FDocumentation.pod%4016035
12:12 lambdabot Title: Diff r16035:16740 for docs/Perl6/Spec/Documentation.pod - Pugs - Trac, http://tinyurl.com/254kbx
12:13 agentzh diakopter: okay :)
12:14 diakopter did you change the svn mime-type or the contents, just now?
12:14 agentzh btw, i wrote the thesis for my B.S. degree using Pod 6 :)
12:14 agentzh diakopter: no, i've forgotten
12:15 agentzh i've found several bugs in damian's Perl6::Perldoc's XHTML emitter, especially the numbering scheme.
12:15 agentzh and i've patched it a lot
12:16 agentzh Pod 6 is cool!
12:20 pasteling "evalbot_r16750" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25834
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12:21 diakopter heh heh; oops
12:21 * diakopter adds a pugs evalbot and parrot-perl6 evalbot to #parrot
12:22 moritz diakopter: how to eval with parrot-perl6?
12:22 moritz #eval or something? @eval?
12:22 diakopter moritz: working on it...
12:23 diakopter moritz: what do you suggest?
12:23 moritz ?pugs $str and ?parrot $str
12:23 lambdabot http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
12:23 diakopter hee hee
12:24 moritz or ?p6por however you abbreviate p6-on-parrot
12:24 diakopter why did lambdabot answer that way
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12:25 * moritz doesn't know
12:29 lumi I think it corrects for spelling (?pugs/?bugs)
12:29 lumi Or so
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12:44 daxim_ ?lambda
12:44 lambdabot Done.
12:44 daxim_ crazy software
12:44 moritz ?lamba
12:44 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
12:44 daxim_ lambada! :D/-<  :D|-<  :D\-<
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14:24 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
14:24 fglock ruoso: ping
14:25 ruoso fglock, pong
14:26 fglock ruoso: mago said you will go to YAPC::EU
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14:34 fglock I'd like to ask for a code review of the kp6 source code - I need to know if I'm using invalid Perl 6 syntax; I can't tell because I've already got used to it
14:36 moritz fglock: is there any part of the code that is particularly interesting for you?
14:37 ruoso fglock, it's not completely defined yet...
14:37 ruoso fglock, but I would love it for sure...
14:37 fglock moritz: I'm not sure about this constructor style:   ::Obj( x => 1 )   # Obj.new( x => 1 )
14:38 fglock moritz: this is probably wrong:   $thing.val(3)   instead of  $thing.val = 3
14:39 moritz fglock: I think is is wrong indeed. you have to 'has $val is rw' for that, though
14:39 fglock but I'm not sure if this is valid:   $thing.val := 3    # mp6 only has bind
14:40 fglock can you bind to an accessor?
14:40 moritz can you bind to hash/list elements?
14:40 fglock yes
14:40 fglock ok
14:43 moritz I just tried to use pugs to check kp6 syntax
14:43 moritz it seems to have problems with pods that contains ^# comments
14:44 moritz if I remove that POD block, Grammar.pm and Regex::Grammar don't produce syntax errors
14:45 fglock moritz: where is that?
14:46 moritz fglock: in KindaPerl6::Grammar::Regexp, somwhere around line 186
14:46 moritz v6/v6-KindaPerl6/lib/KindaPerl6/Traverse.pm compiles OK with pugs as well
14:48 fglock it seems to be a pugs bug; I think it's valid pod
14:48 moritz right
14:48 fglock but I can fix that to avoid the bug
14:49 TimToady ::Obj( ... ) is a coercion, which isn't guaranteed to produce a new object like .new
14:49 moritz KindaPerl6::Visitor::Perl fails to compile as well, but that's a pugs bug too
14:49 diakopter lumi: it's spec.pugscode.org - though it appears specs points there as well... so I'll add that as an alias...
14:50 moritz all other modules under v6-KindaPerl6/lib/KindaPerl6 don't produce syntax errors with pugs
14:50 TimToady $thing.val(3) only works if you define your own accessor that works that way
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14:52 fglock TimToady, moritz: thanks!
14:53 fglock note for myself:  s/<'...'>/'...'/g  in several places in the grammar
14:54 fglock lunch &
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14:54 kolibrie I have lots of those s/<'...'>/'...'/g to do too
14:55 lumi TimToady: Could you clarify 'official "sub" scope' in S04 for us please?
14:55 offby1 left #perl6
14:55 TimToady It's an official sub if it's introduced with a declarator keyword, but not if it starts with -> or {
14:56 TimToady If you want to return from a closure, just use the p5ish sub {...}
14:56 diakopter lumi: (fixed specs.)
14:56 TimToady but I think I'm just restating what the spec says
14:56 lumi TimToady: As implemented in pugs right now, if you call a sub with a block that has "return" in, it returns *from the sub you called*, and not from the lexically surrounding sub
14:56 TimToady as quoted here earlier
14:57 lumi I'm asking about dynamic/lexical meaning of scope
14:57 vel joined #perl6
14:57 TimToady the spec says lexical
14:57 lumi The common lisp guys call dynamic scope "extent", probably to avoid this exact confusion
14:57 TimToady well, extent is not a terribly good word either
14:57 TimToady doesn't imply time domain
14:58 lumi "duration"?
14:58 diakopter "span"?
14:58 TimToady course, it's also limited to your callees
14:58 TimToady in addition to the time
14:58 lumi But the pugs behaviour is right?
14:59 TimToady if it returns from the "official" sub lexically surrounding the return, then it's right
14:59 lumi "span" is better than "duration", then
15:00 lumi Then it's wrong; like I said, it returns from the dynamically closest sub
15:00 TimToady the basic principle is this
15:00 TimToady when a user writes a sub or method
15:00 TimToady they expect return to return from that sub or method
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15:00 TimToady regardless of how the blocks inside are implemented
15:01 TimToady so the correct way is to throw a control exception that can only be caught by that lexically surrounding sub
15:01 TimToady (can be optimized away with known control structures, of course)
15:02 TimToady sub foo { mumble { return } } needs to treat the semantics of return as invariant regardless of whether mumble is builtin or user-defined
15:03 TimToady even if mumble internally has a call stack 1000 deep
15:03 TimToady does this make more sense?
15:03 TimToady and do you know offhand if there's a test for this?
15:04 lumi It does and I don't, and thanks :)
15:04 TimToady guess I'll poke around and see
15:05 lumi I'm off, have fun&
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15:59 svnbot6 r16751 | agentz++ | podhtm.pl - trivial edits
16:00 svnbot6 r16752 | agentz++ | started a (personal) branch of PCR under misc/pX/agentz
16:01 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
16:03 pasteling "evalbot_r16750" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25837
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16:06 svnbot6 r16753 | agentz++ | agentz/PCR - moved t/Regex.pm to t/lib/Regex.pm and updated t/declare/00-demo.t accordingly
16:18 |Jedai| changed the nick to jedai
16:21 weinig joined #perl6
16:21 svnbot6 r16754 | kolibrie++ | version of talk presented at YAPC::NA 2007 (Houston)
16:21 svnbot6 r16754 | kolibrie++ | with some corrections suggested by TimToady++
16:21 svnbot6 r16755 | lwall++ | Test that return will bypass both bare blocks and pointy subs.
16:21 kolibrie TimToady had been multitasking
16:23 pasteling "evalbot_r16753" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25839
16:35 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
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16:41 svnbot6 r16756 | lwall++ | more tests of correct return
16:47 justatheory joined #perl6
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16:49 fglock agentz: feel free to change perl5/PCR
16:49 agentzh fglock: okay. thanks for the permission :)
16:50 fglock you didn't need permission already :)
16:50 agentzh heh
16:50 avar change it how?:)
16:50 fglock whatever good ideas you have
16:51 agentzh yay
16:51 * avar has been carrying around the idea of documenting PCR :)
16:51 fglock I've been thinking to upgrade it to kp6's compiler structure, which is cleaner
16:51 agentzh fglock: please do :)
16:51 agentzh fglock: so i think it's safer for me to play aside
16:52 agentzh fglock: i'm still playing around PCR instead of actually changing it.
16:53 agentzh i'm currently working on the emitter testing facility.
16:53 avar agentzh: cool, to what end?:)
16:53 agentzh piece by piece
16:54 agentzh i'm adding smart comments to the generated perl 5 code so that i can reconstruct the tree
16:54 agentzh something like "## <alt> ... ## </alt>
16:54 fglock I'm trying to concentrate in kp6 project planning - I wish I get to YAPC::EU with something that people can hack on
16:55 agentzh fglock: okay :) feel free to work on whatever you like :)
16:55 avar agentzh: My PCR related TODO is generalizing the .pm => .pmc compiler to use along with a re::engine
16:55 avar and improving the perl5 rx emitter
16:55 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
16:55 agentzh avar: yes, i'm watching your work
16:55 * avar lazy
16:55 agentzh avar: I'm also very interested to promote the use of PCR on the p5 land
16:55 agentzh *in promoting
16:56 agentzh currently PCR is still quite p6-centric, more or less
16:56 avar I want something that works morke like Parse::*, say make a "Parse::Rule" that happens to use PCR to compile a C<package Grammar::*> which is a p5 package
16:56 avar So people can ship modules with emitted PCR code
16:57 avar A re::engine could then be one interface to that
16:57 agentzh avar: that's exactly what i want
16:57 avar agentzh: hooha!
16:57 agentzh avar: i've been trying to use PCR to rewrite my makefile parser
16:57 agentzh it's currently written by hand
16:57 agentzh while Parse::RecDescent is too slow...
16:58 avar PCR is sort of slow, but it could be a lot faster with a 5.10 rx emitter:)
16:58 agentzh avar: looking forward to that :)
16:59 avar http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/util/compile_p6grammar.pl
16:59 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2b4vrv
16:59 fglock I'd like to do a 5.10 emitter for kp6, but I'm not sure how to deal with backtracking in subregexes and recursive regexes
16:59 avar this could be used as part of a M::I that converts a Grammar*.pm to Grammar*.pmc
17:00 agentzh avar: thanks
17:00 fglock subregexes can be inlined, but recursion is more complicated
17:00 avar maybe you could do:
17:00 fglock agentz: you could use v6.pm
17:01 fglock agentzh
17:01 avar $str =~ $rx; if (pos($str) == $a_pos_that_matches_where_it_should_recurse) { recurse($str, $nextrx) }
17:01 avar ?
17:01 agentzh fglock: *nod*
17:01 avar Or (??{}) maybe?
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17:03 fglock for example,  /<xxx_star> x z /
17:04 fglock the caller regex must tell xxx_star() to backtrack
17:04 avar where must it backtrack?
17:04 fglock it must match one-less 'x'
17:05 avar ah
17:05 fglock in order for the caller to match
17:05 [particle] as in regex xxx_star { xxx* }
17:05 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
17:06 * avar no idea
17:06 [particle] fglock: you need continuations
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17:07 [particle] hey xxx_star: pick up where you left off
17:07 fglock [particle]: I mean, implement this using plain perl5.10 regex
17:08 [particle] yeah, i know. i don't know how to get around it without continuations
17:08 fglock it works in PCR-perl5, but it is perl5 code - not p5regex
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17:09 [particle] can you implement that bit with p5 code?
17:09 avar when I say p5regex I don't mean /purely/ p5regex. You'll always need some code too..
17:13 avar but it could defenetely be made faster by using more of the p5 engine
17:16 fglock hmm - there is something wrong here:  perl -e 'use v6-alpha'  ' regex main::xxx { x* } "xxxxz" ~~ /<main::xxx>xz/; say $/.perl '
17:16 vel joined #perl6
17:17 fglock [particle]: re implement, yes
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17:21 avar fglock: Have you made any p6 rx engine where you can write a pure-perl6 method that does the same thing as token { (.*) }
17:21 cmarcelo joined #perl6
17:21 avar i.e. a "multi sub" in a grammar that sets up a capture
17:22 avar would you do that by returning a match object from it?
17:23 fglock avar: yes - mp6 regex emitter emits p6 code, which is recompiled to the backend; looking for an example...
17:25 justatheory_ joined #perl6
17:25 fglock avar: here it is:  perl kp6-perl5.pl --do Token EmitPerl6 < examples/token.pl
17:25 * avar will look later, don't have a pugs copy
17:27 fglock np - you shouldn't look at it anyway - the generated code isn't pretty :)
17:27 PerlJam fglock: are you at yapc?
17:28 fglock PerlJam: no, I'm still in Brazil
17:38 fglock the generated code for this looks good; it's a PCR bug:  perl -e 'use v6-alpha' ' regex Main::xxx {x*}; "xxxxz" ~~ /<Main::xxx>xz/; say $/.perl '
17:41 avar huha bug!
17:41 avar fglock: Since the kp6 backend is "better"-ish wouldn't it make more sense in the long run to just use that for the application I had in mind?
17:41 avar I.e. to take a grammar end emit p5 code
17:43 fglock avar: yes, but kp6 is still way behind v6.pm and pugs - it depends on what limitations you can accept
17:44 [particle] workinger trumps betterer
17:44 avar huhuu
17:44 fglock kp6 is good to hack-on; not hack-with yet :)
17:46 fglock mp6 is quite usable for building p5 modules - the dependencies are minimal
17:46 fglock though it's not in CPAN
17:47 svnbot6 r16757 | diakopter++ | updated feather stuff...
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17:50 pasteling "evalbot_r16756" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25842
17:55 justatheory_ changed the nick to justatheory
17:55 svnbot6 r16758 | fglock++ | kp6-roadmap - updated the list of syntax implementation errors
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17:58 svnbot6 r16759 | agentz++ | [agentz/PCR]
17:58 svnbot6 r16759 | agentz++ | * added t/lib/Emitter.pm for testing the emitter outputs
17:58 svnbot6 r16759 | agentz++ | * added t/emitter/00-ratchet.t to test the ratchet emitter's outputs
17:58 svnbot6 r16759 | agentz++ | * removed trailing whitespaces in the .pm files
17:58 svnbot6 r16759 | agentz++ | * added "smart comments" to identify each piece generated by each emitter sub
17:59 agentzh the unit tests for the emitter can automatically update themselves
17:59 agentzh the emitter templates are supposed to change very often after all :)
18:01 agentzh see the following .t file for an example: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/pX/agentz/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/t/emitter/00-ratche.t
18:01 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yuksah
18:01 agentzh comments welcome :)
18:01 pasteling "evalbot_r16758" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25843
18:02 agentzh off to bed &
18:02 agentzh left #perl6
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19:01 beppu_ changed the nick to beppu
19:21 diakopter parrot svn, visually represented (but somewhat slow): http://perlcabal.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=19378   also, pugs in there somewhere too. :)
19:29 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
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19:32 ludan hola
19:32 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
19:32 diakopter hi ludan
19:41 rindolf Hi all.
19:41 rindolf TimToady: here?
19:41 rindolf <pasteling> "rindolf" at 82.81.233.250 pasted "Excerpt from a pod2man generated man page - why is there a translation for "|"?" (18 lines, 795B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25846
19:41 rindolf I'd like to be enlightened.
19:42 * Tene directs rindolf to http://web.enlightenment.org/ ;)
19:42 lambdabot Title: Enlightenment - Beauty at your fingertips
19:47 TimToady no clue, other than it looks like it's translating to "bv", which I'd assume is "broken vertical" or some such and probably prettier in someone's font somewhere...
19:48 rindolf Hi TimToady
19:49 rindolf TimToady: well, it breaks the searching through the man page/perldoc.
19:53 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
19:55 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
19:56 meppl good night
19:57 Aankhen`` Good night.
19:58 moritz moose!
20:03 Aankhen`` Aardvark!
20:06 fglock meppl: hi
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20:21 moritz fglock: is 'method' implemented in miniperl6?
20:21 svnbot6 r16760 | moritz++ | [mp6] miniperl6-spec.pod is now (very simple) POD
20:21 fglock moritz: I think so - looking
20:23 fglock yes
20:23 fglock and 'self'
20:24 moritz so 'method foo($self:){$self.bar}' is the same as method foo(){self.bar)' ?
20:24 svnbot6 r16761 | lwall++ | complain usefully on p5ish shift ops
20:25 wolverian does 'method foo ($a, $b: $c) { ... }' ever make sense?
20:25 moritz wolverian: I don't think so
20:26 Southen_ joined #perl6
20:28 * moritz is confused... what is '@.body.>>emit' ?
20:28 jan__ joined #perl6
20:28 moritz what does .>>$methodname do?
20:28 pasteling "fglock" at 201.54.129.80 pasted "method and self" (11 lines, 338B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25847
20:29 Tene moritz: hyper
20:29 Aankhen`` Shouldn't that be >>.?
20:29 [particle] moritz: it runs the method against each object in @.body
20:29 Aankhen`` (The question mark is ancillary, sorry for the confusion.)
20:29 TimToady either is allowed
20:29 TimToady as is .>>.
20:29 Aankhen`` Ah.
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20:30 fglock moritz: check the paste
20:30 TimToady however, if .emit does I/O, it can occur in any order
20:30 moritz ok
20:30 moritz fglock: thanks
20:30 wolverian .>> is just weird to me. is >> a method?
20:30 TimToady no, modifies a postfix to a hyperop
20:30 moritz wolverian: it's the hyper op (I just learned that)
20:30 wolverian I guess it can be seen as hypering the .
20:30 wolverian TimToady, postfix being .?
20:31 wolverian er
20:31 TimToady .emit is the postfix
20:31 wolverian right
20:31 [particle] it's like cout >> "foo" ;)
20:31 [particle] ...except nothing like it
20:31 moritz (C++)--
20:31 TimToady .foo(@args) is all a postfix
20:31 wolverian I'm just used to thinking $foo>>.meth and have to re-evaluate my reasons
20:31 moritz fglock: so mp6 even supports hyper ops? cool ;)
20:32 TimToady I would write >>.meth myself
20:32 fglock it's just syntax sugar; it doesn't thread
20:32 wolverian TimToady, so why is .>> allowed? sorry, I've been trying to keep up with the synopses, but I've missed some, I'm sure.
20:33 fglock hmm - it's not just syntax sugar - it depends on what the backend implements
20:34 TimToady wolverian: no good reason, probably
20:34 fglock and '@.body.>>emit' is probably wrong, as TimToady said
20:34 fglock because it would emit in any order
20:35 moritz even if emit() is not declared as 'is hyper'?
20:35 * moritz is truely confused now
20:35 TimToady emit has no idea whether it might be hyperized
20:39 svnbot6 r16762 | fglock++ | kp6-roadmap - TODO: '@.body.>>emit' is wrong, because it would emit the statements in any order
20:40 pasteling "evalbot_r16761" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25850
20:40 fglock the roadmap is getting more interesting - lots of simple things to do
20:41 fglock it's more hackathon-friendly :)
20:41 drupek12 joined #perl6
20:48 fglock @body.>>emit desugars to something like  @body.hyper:{ .emit }   # I hope the syntax is right
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21:04 Aankhen`` moritz: Ping.
21:06 moritz Aankhen``: pong
21:06 Aankhen`` moritz: Hola.  Are actions stored in the DB itself as normal lines with a * before the nickname?
21:07 moritz Aankhen``: yes, they are
21:07 Aankhen`` Ah.
21:07 Aankhen`` Okay, I'mma add another class to the TDs for actions.
21:07 moritz perhaps that was not the best of ideas ;)
21:07 Aankhen`` Hehe.
21:08 moritz I mean storing them this way
21:11 spinclad at least irc protects itself from such nicks
21:11 svnbot6 r16763 | diakopter++ | correct typo/spello in a comment in Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm
21:11 svnbot6 r16764 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] special class for actions.
21:11 Aankhen`` I was thinking of italicising action text to make it more distinctive.
21:11 moritz Aankhen``: I'll go to bed soon, and if we're unlucky I'll not have internet access until monday :(
21:11 Aankhen`` Ouch! :-(
21:12 Aankhen`` How come?
21:12 moritz Aankhen``: re itilic... go right ahead, but then remove the italic from the bots...
21:12 moritz Aankhen``: perhaps but them in small caps instead?
21:12 Aankhen`` No, I meant just the action text.  The nicks would be untouched.
21:12 moritz Aankhen``: visiting my girlfriend's parents
21:12 Aankhen`` Oh, I see.
21:12 moritz ok, that's fine by me
21:12 Aankhen`` Well, have fun and good luck. ^_^
21:13 moritz no need for luck, i'm well accepted ;) but thanks anyway ;)
21:13 Aankhen`` Ah, nevermind that then. :-P
21:15 thoughtp1lice changed the nick to thoughtpolice
21:15 svnbot6 r16765 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] italicise action text.
21:16 Aankhen`` moritz: How does that look to you?
21:16 * Aankhen`` is undecided.
21:16 Aankhen`` (It's distinctive, but I'm not sure whether it looks nice.)
21:17 thoughtpolice later moritz
21:17 pasteling "evalbot_r16764" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25851
21:20 marmic joined #perl6
21:22 Aankhen`` moritz: I'm off to shower.  In case you leave before then, take care. :-)
21:26 moritz bye, and happy hacking ;-) &
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21:50 Jmax hm
21:51 Jmax that's a damn good irclog
21:52 Jmax too bad it's not written in p6 ;o
21:52 Jmax does POE work well with p6/pugs?
21:54 avar no?
21:56 Jmax ok
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22:10 Aankhen`` Jmax: Perl 6 is slated to get events built into the language, so POE doesn't make sense.
22:10 Jmax oh? nice
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22:27 clkao TimToady: what are the things in like $self->madness("o d [ {") ? are they documented anywhere?
22:28 Tene clkao: what things are you referring to?
22:29 TimToady similar things are labelled with different madprops depending on where they are in the p5 grammar
22:30 TimToady that just picks the first madprop that matches
22:31 clkao ah ok. i see mad/p55 has /home/larry hardcoded ;)
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