Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:13 Electricity moritz?
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00:24 Electricity diakopter?
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00:29 Electricity diakopter_afk please dont go yet :'(
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01:48 * kolibrie gets home safely from YAPC
01:48 Electricity diakopter_afk?
01:48 Electricity moritz?
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02:03 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
02:10 diakopter Electricity: wazzup
02:10 Electricity Oh good
02:10 Electricity If I get this damn module installed..
02:11 Electricity How can I use the interface from ilogger2
02:12 diakopter what have you set up so far
02:12 Electricity Well, nothing
02:12 Electricity I have a tarred copy of the files
02:12 Electricity thats like, it
02:13 diakopter how did you obtain a tarred copy of the files
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02:13 diakopter and, which files
02:13 Electricity Tene gave them to me
02:13 Electricity And like, database.conf, and cgi folder
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02:19 diakopter what database do you have the current logs stored in, and what are you using to store them there?
02:20 Electricity A module for php-irc, and ishock_all
02:20 Electricity But I'm about to redo it :O
02:22 diakopter what is ishock_all...?
02:22 Electricity database
02:23 diakopter I mean, what rdbms software/server?
02:25 Electricity rdbms?
02:29 Electricity diakopter
02:29 Electricity WTF is rdbms?
02:35 thoughtpolice relational database management system
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02:39 Electricity And it means?
02:39 Electricity Oh
02:39 Electricity It's a MySQL database
02:41 diakopter ok
02:41 diakopter I dunno what moritz uses to store the logs
02:55 Electricity diakopter, so/
02:57 dduncan fyi, I was just made aware of this: http://www.foss4g2007.org/ ... a big FLOSS (concerning geospatial mainly) conference happening in my home town of Victoria, BC
02:58 dduncan ironically, I don't think I'll be going to most of it
02:59 dduncan but Damian Conway will be leading something there ... any other Perl folks coming to town?
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03:35 diakopter dduncan: dconway missed yapc and will miss oscon
03:35 Electricity diakopter, do you know how to install MySQL on a shell account?
03:37 diakopter not the particulars... but I'm sure google would be quite instrumental in helping locate a TODO
03:37 luigi I'm not sure if I'm in the right channel, but I'm trying to figure out how to display a log file on a webpage using a cgi script, and have it up date every second, without the user needing to refresh the page
03:37 PerlJam luigi: In perl 6?
03:38 luigi yes
03:38 PerlJam luigi: (that's a hint btw :)
03:38 Electricity diakopter, could you find a guide and install it for me? :P
03:38 luigi I'm using CGI::Ajax in a perl script
03:38 luigi my webpage is a perl script
03:38 PerlJam luigi: in perl *6* ?
03:38 luigi ?
03:38 h8crim ahahahahaha
03:38 h8crim does anyone else find this raping larry's daughter hilarious
03:38 h8crim or is it just me
03:39 h8crim :/
03:39 luigi ah
03:39 luigi Ok
03:39 luigi thanks
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03:39 diakopter um
03:42 dduncan diakopter, I'm not talking about either YAPC or OSCON, but another conference
03:42 dduncan or are you saying Damian is going to miss everything?
03:43 diakopter diakopter: not saying that, just saying he'd planned to speak at those two, but then recently cancelled both
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03:44 Electricity [23:43:19::PM] <diakopter> diakopter: <-- Lolol
03:44 diakopter h8crim: you must have some sort of vendetta or grudge.
03:44 diakopter oops; lol indeed. :)
03:44 diakopter dduncan, I meant
03:45 dduncan okay
03:45 h8crim i have no vendetta or grudge i just think its funny
03:45 Electricity diakopter, if I can provide link to docs you install mysql free for me?
03:45 |Jedai| joined #perl6
03:45 h8crim well ok maybe i have a grudge about the xs perldoc
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03:45 diakopter oh
03:46 h8crim and the 1; required at the end of modules
03:46 h8crim i mean whats with that
03:46 h8crim i should be a perl standup comic
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03:46 h8crim SO WHATS THE DEAL WITH MODULES RETURNING TRUE ANYWAY
03:46 Electricity diakopter, if I can provide link to docs you install mysql free for me?
03:47 h8crim ill do it
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03:47 h8crim what type of system
03:47 Electricity Uhhh
03:47 Electricity shell?
03:47 h8crim debian?
03:47 h8crim red hat?
03:47 h8crim bsd?
03:48 Electricity freebsd
03:48 h8crim lol
03:51 Electricity Would you?
03:52 h8crim sure
03:55 Electricity h8crim you get my notice?
03:56 h8crim da
03:56 Electricity How long it take you?
03:58 Electricity How long it take you h8crim
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04:01 Electricity How long it take you h8crim
04:02 h8crim i pmed you
04:02 h8crim foolio
04:02 Electricity no u didnt;
04:02 h8crim you're trippin
04:02 h8crim anyway you need sudo
04:02 h8crim to install mysql
04:02 Electricity I got no pms
04:02 h8crim you aren't in sudoers
04:02 h8crim do you have r00t
04:03 h8crim your pms are broken then
04:03 Electricity N00
04:03 h8crim then how u gonna be frontin
04:03 diakopter Electricity: I appreciate your efforts to take the OT discussion off channel, but could you please register your/a nickname so you can receive private messages
04:03 Electricity Do you seriously need root?
04:04 Electricity diakopter: [00:02:06::AM] -NickServ- You have already identified
04:04 diakopter hrm, I misspoke, set it to receive PMs from unregistered nicks, I mean
04:04 Electricity Dunno how :O
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04:11 nalioth Electricity: /msg nickserv set unfiltered on <enter>
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04:14 Electricity h8crim
04:14 h8crim ja
04:14 Electricity You know PHP?
04:14 h8crim ja
04:15 h8crim php is the best language
04:15 Electricity You know what php-irc is?
04:16 h8crim no
04:16 h8crim sounds dreadful
04:16 Electricity php irc bot
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04:28 Jmax i think the thing about modules having to return true stems from the fact that "normal" (ie: non-modular) files can be require()d, returning the last value
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04:38 svnbot6 r16775 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : incremented version nums to 0.0.1 ; added to README, Changes files
04:42 pasteling "evalbot_r16774" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25877
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04:51 meppl good morning
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05:08 svnbot6 r16776 | diakopter++ | precache the svn diff url in svnbot
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05:39 cls_bsd btw
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05:39 cls_bsd wtf
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05:39 dduncan Bruce Almighty!
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05:43 sacarasc ...
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05:54 wolverian sigh
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05:55 Caelum ops?
05:55 vladutz25 LAMBDABOT COME BACK
05:55 jandtp LAMBDABOT COME BACK
05:55 SeNTiM LAMBDABOT COME BACK
05:55 * wolverian is waiting for someone to k-line him
05:55 wolverian I think only audrey has ops :)
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05:58 wolverian well that was anticlimatic
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06:29 * Aankhen`` wonders whether adding the right definition of PHP to abbr.dat would get him into trouble. <G>
06:30 Aankhen`` Jeez.  Logs need major cleaning up. :-\
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07:48 Juerd Aankhen``: logs should be cleaned automatically after a while :)
07:48 Aankhen`` Ah, cool.
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08:03 pmurias hi all
08:04 Aankhen`` Hiya pmurias.
08:04 Aankhen`` What's shakin'?
08:06 pmurias not much really, waiting to do any last minute bug fixing in an AJAX app ;)
08:09 buu HELLO AANAKNEH
08:12 Aankhen`` OH NOES ITS FOLLOWED ME HERE TOO
08:16 buu I was so here before you were.
08:18 Aankhen`` No wai.
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08:27 buu Aankhen``: I've got logs.
08:28 aharoni joined #perl6
08:31 aharoni anyone here?
08:31 aharoni the spam attack is over?
08:32 Aankhen`` buu: Since when?
08:33 Aankhen`` Rather, from when?
08:33 buu For ever.
08:33 aharoni i've got a Q about perl6 regexes ...
08:33 Aankhen`` buu: You lie.
08:33 Aankhen`` aharoni: The quickest way to get an answer to a question is to ask it.
08:33 ruoso joined #perl6
08:33 aharoni ah yeah
08:33 sysdef and the smartest ;)
08:33 Aankhen`` aharoni: Your nick sounds familiar. I'm pretty sure you've been told that before in other channels.
08:34 Aankhen`` Let me see.  ##javascript?
08:34 aharoni this is the only IRC channel that i've used in about eight years :)
08:34 Aankhen`` Hmm.
08:34 Aankhen`` Alright, nevermind then.  Although I could have sworn I've seen you elsewhere.
08:35 Aankhen`` Anyway.  What was your question?
08:35 aharoni anyway, if i put an array variable into a regex, then it is supposed to be expanded into an alternation, right?
08:35 aharoni my @list = <a b c>;
08:35 Aankhen`` Indeed.
08:35 Aankhen`` It's as if you said [ a | b | c ]
08:35 aharoni my $re = rx / @list /
08:36 aharoni i can eval pugs here on IRC, right?
08:36 Aankhen`` Yup..
08:36 Aankhen`` s/.$//
08:37 aharoni how do i run it?
08:37 Aankhen`` ?eval my @foo = <a b c d>; 'a' ~~ /@foo/
08:37 evalbot_r16774 changed the nick to evalbot_r16776
08:37 evalbot_r16776 *** Cannot parse regex: @foo␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
08:37 aharoni yep, so that's the question - does it mean that it is not implemented yet?
08:37 Aankhen`` Aye.
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08:38 Aankhen`` My copy of Pugs says as much.
08:38 Aankhen`` *** Error: Error: interpolation of @foo not implemented
08:40 aharoni ok
08:40 aharoni and what if i try it with a junction?
08:41 Aankhen`` TIAS.
08:41 aharoni ?eval my $foo = any(<a b c d>); 'a' ~~ /{$foo}/
08:41 evalbot_r16776 *** Cannot parse regex: {$foo}␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
08:41 Aankhen`` I *think* that ought to work, but I'm not sure.  S05 should know.
08:43 aharoni did i write the regex correctly? scalars are not interpolated by default according to S05, so is {$var} the right way
08:43 aharoni ?eval my $foo = 'h'; 'hello' ~~ /{$foo}/
08:43 evalbot_r16776 *** Cannot parse regex: {$foo}␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
08:43 Aankhen`` $foo is supposed to be interpolated if it's a Regex object, I think.
08:43 Aankhen`` { $foo } is more like an assertion.
08:44 Aankhen`` You really want <$foo>, I suspect.
08:44 aharoni ?eval my $foo = 'h'; 'hello' ~~ /<$foo>/
08:44 evalbot_r16776 *** Cannot parse regex: <$foo>␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
08:44 aharoni ?eval my $foo = rx /h/; 'hello' ~~ /$foo/
08:44 Aankhen`` ENOTIMPLEMENTEDYET
08:44 evalbot_r16776 *** Cannot parse regex: $foo␤*** Error: ␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
08:45 Aankhen`` *** Error: Error: interpolation of $foo not implemented
08:45 aharoni i couldn't find the anything about junction interpolation in S05
08:45 Aankhen`` I guess not then.
08:46 aharoni any idea why not?
08:46 Aankhen`` Not really.
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09:11 buu Is there a Inline::Perl6 yet?
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09:12 weirdo is gc guaranteed to be pure-refcnt in the spec?
09:18 Aankhen`` buu: Try http://search.cpan.org/author/AUDREYT​/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.13/lib/Inline/Pugs.pm
09:18 Aankhen`` Though that's from October 2006, so good luck. :-)
09:18 avar weirdo: no
09:20 Aankhen`` buu: Actually, it looks like the code hasn't been touched since before April last year.
09:20 Aankhen`` Perhaps much longer, you'd have to go back in the log to see. :-)
09:20 buu =[
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09:49 weirdo avar, do i have to close $fd in non-pure-refcnt?
09:51 avar no, perl 6 has a garbage collector, it just doesn't have to be refcount based
09:51 * Aankhen`` GCs avar.
09:52 avar so from the user point of view it'll just work. Maybe even better since I seem to recall checking circular refs was specced
09:52 * avar may be lying
09:52 wolverian yes, non-refcount gcs can gc circular structures, unlike pure-refcount
09:53 wolverian the downside is that timely destruction is not a hard promise
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09:53 * weirdo will have a hard time checking his code for fd leaks, as he never close()s any fds in p5
09:53 wolverian weirdo, you don't have to do that in p6 either.
09:53 wolverian they might not be closed immediately, but they _will_ be closed.
09:53 lichtkind moritz: awake?
09:53 Aankhen`` Wasn't he out till Monday?
09:55 avar You can have circular collection with a refcount based one if you also implement a cyclic collector. There's a patch for python that does that
09:55 weirdo wolverian, EMFILE :/
09:55 wolverian avar, but then it's not pure refcount
09:55 wolverian weirdo, sorry, I don't know what that emans.
09:55 wolverian s/emans/means/
09:55 weirdo wolverian, an errno value for an open(2) failure caused by the process reaching its fd limit
09:56 avar wolverian: hence the "if you also" :)
09:56 wolverian avar, right.. :)
09:56 * weirdo would love ruby-ish File.with "mode", "path" { ... }
09:56 avar Actually the collector itself can be pure refcount, you can just decide not to increase the refcount of something if you see that it's going in circles
09:56 wolverian weirdo, the difference between p6 and p5 in closing filehandles will be on the order of milliseconds. you're not going to notice it.
09:56 Aankhen`` (with-open-file ("path" :opts) ...) ;-)
09:56 avar like people do manually with weaken now in p5
09:57 weirdo wolverian, doesn't gc only run when a page has to be allocated?
09:57 wolverian weirdo, that depends entirely on the gc.
09:57 weirdo i can't call it "milliseconds", then
09:58 * wolverian shrugs
09:58 wolverian it's not a problem in other languages that don't promise timely destruction.
09:58 weirdo aankhen``, i feel lispy already :-)
09:58 Aankhen`` ^_^
09:58 weirdo as long as there's an appropriate method available for lazy bums like me :-)
09:59 wolverian weirdo, given open(...) -> $fh { ... } # if you feel rubyish :)
09:59 weirdo will syscalls barf exceptions in p6?
09:59 weirdo wolverian, that's in the spec? cool! :-)
10:00 wolverian not explicitly.
10:01 wolverian anyone know why it wouldn't work, or have a cleaner solution when we feel rubyish?
10:01 * wolverian doesn't like the extra indentation, but timtoady
10:02 wolverian er... timtowtdi I mean :)
10:02 weirdo is the arrow syntax supported in pugs?
10:02 Aankhen`` Er, what's the question?
10:02 Aankhen`` wolverian: Why what wouldn't work?
10:03 wolverian Aankhen``, I'm not sure if the grammar supports parametric blocks there.
10:03 wolverian Aankhen``, er, the given line.
10:03 wolverian given open(...) -> $fh { ... }
10:04 weirdo # i might finally learn Hs. i saw the beauty of map defined in it.
10:05 Aankhen`` "The current topic is always aliased to the special variable $_."
10:05 Aankhen`` I guess that precludes -> ... then?
10:06 Aankhen`` I thought you could bind it to another name, though.
10:07 Aankhen`` Might be a workaround in this case though, if you add in error handling. :-)
10:07 Aankhen`` if (open(...)) -> $fh { ... } else { ... }
10:07 weirdo might create my own class (never suspected i'd do that)
10:07 weirdo pugs supports the arrow
10:10 weirdo pugs> sub foo (&block) { block(42) }
10:10 weirdo pugs> foo -> $answer { warn $answer }
10:10 weirdo *** 42
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10:11 wolverian well, that's a bit different, but yeah.
10:11 wolverian Aankhen``, I think it should work. can't be arsed to look at STD.pm though
10:11 wolverian works in pugs right now.
10:11 wolverian ?eval given 42 -> $meaning { $meaning }
10:12 evalbot_r16776 \42
10:12 * Aankhen`` shrugs.
10:12 wolverian weirdo, anyway, the reason why I don't like that syntax is that it's just a redundant indentation most of the time, since I usually open a file in a very restricted scope anyway.
10:13 pmurias weirdo: an EMFILE error could trigger the gc
10:13 * Aankhen`` > bed &
10:15 pmurias a milisecond is a lot of cpu cycles so if you can wait that long you can try a lot of fallback strategies ;)
10:17 weirdo (help-me-i-am-ignorant "how to define and call a class method?")
10:19 wolverian http://perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Class_methods
10:19 wolverian see spec.pugscode.org for the synopses.
10:20 wolverian (the spec, that is.)
10:22 weirdo sorry. was looking in #6 ;]
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10:24 wolverian yeah.. the synopses need an index
10:24 wolverian (a term index that is)
10:26 weirdo aiee!
10:26 weirdo pugs> class Test { method ^foo {42} }
10:26 weirdo *** No compatible subroutine found: "&method"
10:27 wolverian most likely pugs doesn't like the ^
10:27 wolverian yeah.
10:27 weirdo won't "sub" create a class method?
10:28 wolverian no, it creates a function.
10:28 weirdo strange.
10:28 weirdo pugs> class Test { sub foo {@_} }
10:28 weirdo pugs> Test.foo
10:28 weirdo (::Test,)
10:29 wolverian A method call first considers methods (including multi-methods and submethods) from the class hierarchy of its invocant, and fails over to the subroutine dispatcher as a last resort only if no method can be found in the class hierarchy.
10:29 wolverian http://perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Method_call_vs._Subroutine_call
10:30 weirdo S6 states (or rather, doesn't state the opposite) that methods have no param lists
10:31 weirdo wish the pointy block could be attached to anything and just ignored if one is not needed
10:31 wolverian if you want to read about methods, read S12.
10:32 weirdo just did. the only way i knew of how to create a class method was the circumflex-thingee
10:32 wolverian well, yeah.. sub foo -> params { ... } and get rid of the traditional () param list? :) a bit radical methinks
10:32 weirdo uh, no
10:32 wolverian (you probably weren't talking about that.)
10:32 wolverian (it was just a crazy thought)
10:32 weirdo do it like ruby
10:32 weirdo the block isn't listed in the arglist
10:33 weirdo it just "attaches" itself to the nearest method call
10:33 weirdo called when necessary, its presence doesn't cause errors if redundant
10:33 wolverian I think one of the early discussions specifically decided not to follow the ruby way there
10:33 wolverian it's limiting.
10:33 weirdo why?
10:33 wolverian better to make the grammar expressive enough and make blocks first calss
10:33 wolverian s/cal/cla/
10:33 weirdo then how do i File.open ... -> $fd {}?
10:34 weirdo first class?
10:34 weirdo first-class objects?
10:34 wolverian right.
10:34 wolverian if you want that to happen in perl6, you'll have to define your own open, I think. is 'given open... -> $fh { }' that bad?
10:36 weirdo they are in ruby
10:36 weirdo irb(main):001:0> def foo(&block)
10:36 weirdo irb(main):002:1>   puts block.class
10:36 weirdo irb(main):003:1>   block.call(666)
10:36 weirdo irb(main):004:1> end
10:36 weirdo irb(main):005:0> foo { |i| puts i }
10:36 weirdo Proc
10:36 weirdo 666
10:37 svnbot6 r16777 | pmurias++ | kp6:
10:37 svnbot6 r16777 | pmurias++ | t/insanity - parts of t/01-sanity heavily modified to pass
10:37 svnbot6 r16777 | pmurias++ | prefix:<++>
10:38 wolverian well, yeah. I mispoke. I meant that it's better to not insert a special case for them into the syntax, but treat them equivalently everywhere (roughly), and make the grammar flexible enough to allow passing them to functions and methods without making it too ugly.
10:38 weirdo there can be only one attaching-block-thingee, but i can't imagine multiple pointy-thingees either
10:38 weirdo isn't "&block" a special case?
10:38 pasteling "evalbot_r16776" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25881
10:38 wolverian in perl6? no. it's just a variable.
10:39 weirdo good. in the end, ruby's syntactic sugar works. perl's pointy one doesn't. where do i go to start a bikeshed?
10:40 wolverian here, or perl6-language (http://lists.cpan.org/showli​st.cgi?name=perl6-language)
10:40 weirdo on the channel?
10:40 wolverian you'll probably find threads about this if you search the list for 'ruby', or so.
10:41 wolverian the ml is better for suggestions, I suppose.
10:41 nipotan changed the nick to nipotaway
10:41 weirdo (with-demanding-attitude-tolerating-no-objection ^U
10:42 weirdo gotta try the ml, thanks :-)
10:43 wolverian there was talk about :{}, which would correspond to the ruby magical block, but not sure if that's in the spec now.
10:44 weirdo i like the pointy one, because it alludes to my hair
10:44 wolverian http://perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#Slurpy_block
10:45 wolverian so your suggestion would be to make open() support that?
10:46 weirdo in the form of not inserting special cases, i'd like all function-ish thingees to support it
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10:46 wolverian ah. hum. does ruby do that?
10:47 weirdo yeah. redundant blocks are ignored quietly
10:47 weirdo i'm perfectly fine with that
10:47 wolverian I'm not
10:47 weirdo i'll create a File class doing exceptions anyway
10:47 wolverian but.. feel free to argue it :)
10:47 wolverian (on the ml)
10:48 weirdo wolverian, ok. redundant blocks could be detected at compile time with type decls or at runtime
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11:55 pasteling "fglock" at 200.102.171.27 pasted "request for comments - Perl6-regex on Perl5" (226 lines, 5.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/25882
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13:09 pmurias fglock: hi
13:12 weirdo will the generator functionality (new m$ buzzword) be possible with p6 continuations?
13:14 pmurias fglock: the paste looks fine
13:14 kolibrie fglock: all three tests pass, but my brain still does not understand exactly what is happening, particularly with the third one
13:15 pmurias kolibrie: what would you like explained?
13:15 kolibrie I'm not sure how the numbers get matched
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13:18 pmurias the Grammar3::rule0_sub increments the pos by 3 characters
13:19 pmurias and rule0_qr matches that many /./
13:20 pmurias s/pos/$GLOBAL::MATCH->to/
13:21 pmurias anything unclear
13:21 pmurias ?
13:21 pmurias (??{
13:21 pmurias            '.{' . ($GLOBAL::MATCH->to - $GLOBAL::MATCH->from) . '}'
13:21 pmurias          })
13:22 pmurias does the actual matching
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13:22 kolibrie so it's not actually matching the numbers, the subroutine is altering the match inside the regex?
13:24 pmurias think so
13:24 kolibrie ok
13:25 pmurias the use of local variables instead of arguments is a bit confusing
13:25 kolibrie I remember fglock asking (yesterday?) if it was possible to alter a match within a regex, so maybe this is the result of his research
13:25 kolibrie truely
13:26 pmurias he wanted to alter the pos()
13:27 pmurias well increment
13:29 pmurias he does that by matching the needed number of characters after the call to the perl sub
13:30 kolibrie ok
13:32 aharoni i was looking for the Perl 6 equivalent of "aaa" =~ /a{1,3}/ and finally found that it's "aaa" ~~ /a**{1 .. 3}/ (but correct me if i'm wrong)
13:32 aharoni is there a reason ("mnemonic") for the ** ?
13:32 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
13:33 wolverian ?eval 2**3
13:33 evalbot_r16776 changed the nick to evalbot_r16777
13:33 evalbot_r16777 8/1
13:33 wolverian yes :) (ignore the /1)
13:33 wolverian (though it's not exactly the same)
13:34 aharoni is exponentiation related to character quantifying in some way?
13:35 wolverian if you think about it without thinking about it too hard
13:35 wolverian a**3 == aaa
13:35 monomorph in computer science, people usually write concatenation as multiplication
13:35 aharoni wicked
13:35 monomorph so a * a = aa
13:35 wolverian yeah. and multiplication as concatenation...
13:35 monomorph consequently, a * a * a == a ** 3 :-)
13:36 pmurias in python, people usally write concatenation as edition ;)
13:36 aharoni yea, got it. a bit too geeky
13:37 aharoni however ...
13:37 aharoni ?eval 'a' ** 3
13:37 evalbot_r16777 0/1
13:37 kolibrie pmurias: s/edition/addition/ ?
13:37 aharoni it's hard to think of ** in terms of character
13:38 pmurias kolibrie: yes :)
13:38 aharoni it's too much of a Maths/CS think for me :)
13:38 aharoni it makes more sense as 'a' x 3 == "aaa" ...
13:39 wolverian ?eval "a" x 3 # yeah.
13:39 evalbot_r16777 "aaa"
13:39 wolverian unfortunate that perl and regexes disagree there :)
13:39 aharoni but even Larry wouldn't make a Latin letter into a special character in a regex
13:40 aharoni ** is a bit too weird and verbose to my taste :(
13:40 monomorph we could use >< which looks almost like an x
13:40 pmurias it isn't used much (at least by me)
13:40 monomorph not being serious here...
13:42 monomorph need to test something
13:42 monomorph ?eval True ^^ True ^^ True
13:42 evalbot_r16777 Bool::True
13:43 monomorph pairwise xor?
13:43 wolverian × would be nice
13:43 monomorph ?eval ?(True ^ True ^ True)
13:43 evalbot_r16777 Bool::False
13:43 aharoni using a range ({1 .. 5}) instead of a comma ({1,5}) is nice, though
13:45 monomorph it seems like ^ means one-of (even in a list) and ^^ means pairwise-xor. that's a bit inconsistent with the other junction operators
13:50 svnbot6 r16778 | diakopter++ | argh; forgot I overrode the svn version on feather with one bugfix; forgot to sync them.
13:51 obra (I'm not really here, but can spread around some ops to help fight off future children)
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13:54 [particle] thanks obra, that ought to help
13:55 kolibrie now that we are better armed, do we know how to fight?
13:56 diakopter kolibrie: :) good q
13:56 * [particle] has no idea
13:57 ayrnieu read about freenode-specific channel modes regarding unregistered users, and temporarily apply those when a botnet attacks the channel; read about freenode-specific mechanisms for finding active ircops.
13:59 diakopter ayrnieu: thanks
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14:20 fglock pmurias, kolibrie: thanks for looking
14:21 kolibrie fglock: you're welcome
14:21 fglock I'll try to integrate this into one of the emitters
14:24 tirwhan hi folks, quick (possibly stupid question), would you expect all tests to pass on a newly compiled pugs on AMD64 linux (64bit userland)?
14:26 diakopter no...
14:26 kolibrie tirwhan: http://smoke.pugscode.org/
14:27 kolibrie se the 'repository snapshot' entries
14:27 kolibrie s/se/see/
14:27 tirwhan right, thanks
14:29 fglock afk
14:33 pmurias fglock: did a little work on trying to get the sanity tests to pass
14:36 pmurias to the $::Bit objects support the true method in Perl5::Runtime?
14:37 pmurias adding it
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15:01 pmurias fglock: ping
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15:50 Electricity diakopter
15:51 diakopter yes?
15:51 Electricity You wanna help me with that interface again in a bit?
15:52 diakopter not particularly, but regardless of my wants, I'm otherwise occupied for the foreseeable future
15:52 Electricity :(
15:52 Electricity You were helping last night, but I had to go to sleep :(
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16:36 rhr weirdo: you can do: multi open($file, &block:($), *%opts) { my $fh = open $file, %opts; &block($fh); $fh.close; }
16:37 rhr might even be worth adding that to the core, maybe with another name
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17:18 buu Hah
17:19 diakopter don't be alarmed... at my request... :D
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17:24 [particle] ack! what happened to me!
17:25 buu [particle]: diakopter asked me to remove your ops.
17:25 diakopter (and mine)
17:28 buu diakopter: I notice most of these ops aren't actually on the access list, it might be useful to add a few people there.
17:29 diakopter buu: no, obra added us b/c everyone on the access list is unavailable at the moment...
17:30 buu Oh, yeah, aujitrus looks like the only one who can modify it.
17:33 rindolf Why do some people have ops here?
17:34 [particle] buu: i'd rather live without them, thanks :)
17:35 pasteling "evalbot_r16778" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25895
17:38 buu rindolf: Did you not notice the spam floods?
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17:42 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
17:43 rindolf buu: oh.
17:43 rindolf buu: I noticed yesterday something about PHP on #perl.
17:44 buu Something like that, yes.
17:44 daxim terrible things
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17:57 spinclad buu: they were hard to miss (if i could /ignore ALLCAPS, i might)
17:57 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
17:57 buu Well, you can specify a regex in irssi..
17:57 buu I think.
17:58 spinclad ah true. (if i could read the doc, i might)
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18:11 chris2 slightly ot, but i'm sure someone knows... when you upload something to cpan, how long does it take until others can install it with the cpan shell?
18:11 buu It depends on when the mirror syncs.
18:12 chris2 the index gets built instantly?
18:12 buu It lives on pause incoming, then funet syncs with that every couple of hours, I assume building an index at that point.
18:12 buu Then the other servers gradually sync with funet.
18:13 chris2 i see
18:13 chris2 so it can take an hour
18:14 lidden It may take longer depending on your mirror
18:14 buu chris2: Longer perhaps.
18:14 chris2 okay
18:14 chris2 thanks
18:14 buu I *think* funet is between 3-4 hours.
18:16 kolibrie I would not get worried unless it takes longer than a day or two
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18:47 RedF hey all, im wondering how possible it is in perl to execute an external process (with, say, fork), NOT as a child process. So if the parent gets killed, the forked process keeps going.
18:48 daxim perl5 is over there in #perl
18:48 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
18:48 [particle] that's #perl on irc.perl.org
18:49 [particle] RedF: this channel is for perl 6 developers -- you're probably using perl 5
18:49 daxim that's #perl here on freenode
18:49 RedF I am, sorry guys
18:49 RedF cheers
18:49 RedF \quit
18:49 RedF left #perl6
18:49 daxim #perl on perl.org is a social channel
18:49 [particle] ah, i wasn't aware of that
18:50 [particle] daxim++
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18:52 pmurias did my commit arrive in the repo?
18:52 daxim look at the web svn thingie
18:52 daxim or darcs, if you swing that way
18:53 pmurias using svk and svnbot seems to be alive so in doubt
18:53 [particle] pmurias: http://perlcabal.org/svn/pugs/revision?rev=16779
18:55 pmurias thanks
18:55 pmurias the revision viewer looks cool
18:59 [particle] diakopter++ added links for that to svnbot
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19:03 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
19:09 diakopter yes but hang on a sec, broke svnbot in the channel for now
19:09 diakopter fixing...
19:09 diakopter but first fixing my own local caching dns (again)
19:11 fglock pmurias: pong
19:12 diakopter but... to be honest the revision viewer built into trac is better, imho.
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19:19 pmurias fglock: ping ;)
19:19 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
19:19 fglock pmurias: hi
19:20 pmurias rehi
19:21 pmurias hack a bit on the kp6 runtime, i think i needs a bit sugar
19:22 pmurias a bit of
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19:23 pmurias one could make AUTOLOAD method use ->{_dispatch}
19:24 fglock pmurias: nothingmuch has a great plan for the metamodel; kp6 doesn't implement it fully yet
19:26 fglock pmurias: my plan is to implement the metamodel in mp6 instead of perl5
19:26 fglock s/implement/rewrite/
19:27 fglock I started a P6Opaque class, but that's all I have so far
19:27 pmurias i see
19:29 dduncan hm, svnbot isn't online
19:30 pmurias i will go for a weeks vacation tomorrow, so wan't be online for that peroid
19:32 pmurias what are you working on currently?
19:34 fglock pmurias: I'm working on the kp6 plan,
19:34 fglock splitting into small doable tasks
19:35 fglock preparing the YAPC::EU 6-in-6 hackathon
19:35 fglock looking for alternative regex engine implementations
19:36 fglock changing to a new job also
19:36 * kolibrie likes small doable tasks
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19:37 pmurias the sanity tests would be a nice bunch of tasks
19:38 fglock the next thing after the regex engine is multisubs
19:39 fglock which requires a better type system, and a few missing classes
19:39 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
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19:40 fglock we could change the grammar, to make the 'class' declaration optional - in order to run the tests
19:41 diakopter yes, still trying to resummon svnbot6
19:41 fglock and make an AST processor to move things into 'Main'
19:41 fglock mp6 has a Test.pm that could be reused
19:48 pmurias how many people will be at the hackathon?
19:50 fglock probably around 10 people, I guess
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19:54 pmurias adding a new backend is probably the most obvious sidetask
19:56 fglock pmurias: btw, did you see the http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-MiniPerl6-JVM/
19:57 pasteling "evalbot_r16780" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25901
19:58 pmurias yes
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20:01 diakopter there we go
20:02 progma joined #perl6
20:03 * pmurias dosn't use java at all, so the JVM backend isn't of real interest to him
20:04 fglock the kp6 "main track" goal is to parse and run Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm; but it has a multitude of sidetracks
20:05 fglock pmurias: me neither; but somebody in $job asked if it could be done :)
20:06 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
20:06 pmurias you could talk with other people who will be at the hackathon to see what would they like to do most
20:09 fglock pmurias: what would you like to do most?
20:11 pmurias i think just implementing tests would be fun
20:12 pmurias i would love to have a useable js backend, but i don't think it's feasable yet
20:13 fglock I think it is; you can start with mp6-on-js; compile kp6 to mp6; write the runtime in js
20:14 fglock js doesn't have closures, right?
20:14 pmurias it has
20:14 fglock no problem, then
20:15 pmurias but only function introduce scope not blocks
20:15 fglock that's something we have to live with; parrot blocks are also difficult to write
20:16 fglock you can do variable renaming, or rewrite blocks as functions
20:17 fglock this is easier to implement in kp6
20:17 fglock than in mp6
20:18 pmurias what i meant is that kp6 isn't very useable right now
20:18 fglock there is reason for that
20:19 fglock kp6 is meant as a compiler tool
20:19 pmurias i don't mean it in a mean way ;)
20:19 fglock you have to add a lot of meat to that skeleton :)
20:22 pmurias i would only use the js backend in production if it was complete enough
20:23 pmurias and a large number of things needed for the p5 backend would be reusable by the js one
20:24 kolibrie I would use kp6 in production if it could parse the grammars correctly that I am now running under v6.pm, and do it as well or better
20:24 fglock pmurias: that's why we have a 'main track'
20:24 fglock kolibrie: it should be able to do that by the end of phase 3 (this phase)
20:24 kolibrie cool
20:25 kolibrie fglock: did you read my slides?
20:25 fglock by then, the engine can be ported back to PCR
20:25 fglock kolibrie: yes :)
20:26 kolibrie it was nice talking them over with TimToady - I think I have a better understanding of things now
20:28 fglock I wish I had that (better understanding of things) :)
20:29 kolibrie one step at a time.  My next step of course will present me with something that I do not understand
20:31 fglock what is next step?
20:32 * kolibrie cannot see that far into the future
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20:32 fglock oh, same problem here
20:33 kolibrie if you can figure out what your steps are, maybe I can help
20:34 kolibrie probably the next thing I will do is write tests for things in my talk, since some are missing tests, I believe
20:34 fglock the paste from a few hours ago is a possible next step for the kp6 regex engine; I need to figure if it really works (and makes sense)
20:36 pmurias kolibirie: can you past an url to your slides?
20:36 pmurias s/past/paste/g
20:36 kolibrie that is an exciting step, especially when Perl 5.10 comes out with its new regex stuff
20:36 fglock then, I'll implement a few primitives in kp6-on-perl5; if all is well, the plan continues from there
20:36 kolibrie http://feather.perl6.nl/~kolibrie/extraction.xul
20:37 kolibrie pmurias: they are in the pugs repo, too, under docs/talks
20:37 pmurias takahashi+
20:37 pmurias takahashi++
20:39 fglock one thing I need to figure out, is what kind of things would kill Perl 5.8.8, is order to avoid that
20:41 pmurias whats your perl version?
20:42 fglock I have 5.8.8 and 5.9.4
20:43 fglock my program worked fine in 5.8.8, I didn't expect that :)
20:43 fglock I wonder if I can keep it compatible
20:44 kolibrie not if you start using some of the new stuff, like recursion
20:49 pugs_svnbot r16782 | fglock++ | trunk:
20:49 pugs_svnbot : [kp6] added temp/backtracking-subrule.pl  # perl6-in-perl5 regex prototype
20:49 pugs_svnbot diff: http://perlcabal.org/svn/pugs/revision?rev=16782
20:49 fglock I'll add a recursion test
20:50 fglock cool - a diff link :)
20:50 kolibrie yeah, that's awesome
20:55 fglock kolibrie: "Segmentation fault" on 5.8.8; trying with 5.9.4 ...
20:56 * Invisionfree is away (if ($me ison BNC) { return true } { msg # $true })
20:56 Invisionfree changed the nick to iShock|BNC
20:57 pmurias you can merge (?{}) with (??{})
20:58 kolibrie fglock: what had a segmentation fault?
20:59 fglock kolibrie: recursive subrule; but no more - not it's just a wrong result
20:59 fglock pmurias: how so?
20:59 fglock pmurias: I'll commit the new test
21:00 fglock s/not/now/
21:00 pugs_svnbot r16783 | fglock++ | trunk:
21:00 pugs_svnbot : [kp6] temp/backtracking-subrule.pl - added a (failing) test
21:00 pugs_svnbot diff: http://perlcabal.org/svn/pugs/revision?rev=16783
21:00 pmurias you use (?{..code1..}) (??{..code2..})
21:01 pmurias you could use instead (??{..code1;code2...})
21:01 pmurias it's a bit late so i may be mistaken
21:01 fglock pmurias: that's right :)
21:02 kolibrie fglock: testing++
21:03 pmurias sleep and trip to Hel&
21:03 pmurias left #perl6
21:05 pasteling "evalbot_r16782" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25903
21:09 diotalevi joined #perl6
21:12 fglock the trace looks ok, but the result is wrong
21:12 fglock I wished dmq was around :)
21:13 * kolibrie bikes home &
21:16 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
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21:23 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
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21:29 fglock left #perl6
21:32 beppu seen audreyt
21:32 buubot beppu: Sorry, I haven't seen audreyt
21:32 * beppu names
21:36 Limbic_Region names?
21:43 beppu I mistyped.
21:44 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
21:44 beppu There's a silly mud w/ an irc interface that scrottie hosts, and to send it commands I do /me $command .
21:44 beppu i really just wanted to type "/names" into irssi.
21:52 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
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22:14 pugs_svnbot r16784 | Aankhen++ | trunk:
22:14 pugs_svnbot : * [irclog] yaymoreabbreviations
22:14 pugs_svnbot diff: http://perlcabal.org/svn/pugs/revision?rev=16784
22:14 Aankhen`` What's with the colon at the beginning of the line?
22:20 prism joined #perl6
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22:57 progma joined #perl6
22:58 dduncan so if anyone cares, the final GPL and LGPL version 3 licenses are published and can be used
22:58 dduncan I already updated the relevant Pugs repo stuff accordingly
22:58 dduncan if 'twasn't noticed
23:09 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
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23:33 TristinD joined #perl6
23:33 TristinD anyone know when perl 6 is going to hit "production"
23:33 Eidolos joined #perl6
23:36 Aankhen`` TristinD: Some time before the Sun burns out.
23:36 DarkWolf84 joined #perl6
23:36 diakopter TristinD: no, no one knows.
23:36 TristinD ahh if it doesn't hurry up i'll be using ruby for everything. it seems like ruby is a step ahead.
23:37 diakopter but whenever it will, you can hurry it.
23:37 * Aankhen`` pokes diakopter.
23:37 Aankhen`` diakopter: <Aankhen``> What's with the colon at the beginning of the line?
23:37 TristinD even some of the new syntax is identical to ruby
23:38 Aankhen`` Great languages steal. :-)
23:38 diakopter all pairs of languages have at least some common syntax and/or grammar... :D
23:39 Aankhen`` Yup.
23:39 diakopter Aankhen``: oh, 'tis b/c I put it in 'true true' mode to workaround a logic bug...
23:40 Aankhen`` diakopter: Not sure I follow. :-S "true true mode"?
23:40 diakopter the svnbot.pl
23:41 TristinD anyone actually using perl6 yet?
23:42 diakopter there are a couple of implementations in progress...
23:42 diakopter using in production, yes, a few people.
23:43 diakopter Aankhen``: switching it back to false true mode...
23:43 diakopter (tentatively) :)
23:43 Aankhen`` Oh, the : is an empty branch?
23:45 diakopter not sure, I think it just prefaces each line with that..
23:45 diakopter dunno
23:52 pugs_svnbot joined #perl6
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23:59 diakopter someone commit something to pugs :)

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