Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:13 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
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00:44 weinig changed the nick to weinigFood
00:46 pugs_svnbot r16796 | Darren_Duncan++ | trunk:
00:46 pugs_svnbot : ext/Muldis-DB/ : Muldis D now has 2 representation formats (concrete, abstract) rather than 3 (relations, asts, strings)
00:46 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16796
01:15 agentzh joined #perl6
01:15 pugs_svnbot r16797 | agentz++ | trunk:
01:15 pugs_svnbot : merged from agentz/PCR down to the trunk
01:15 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16797
01:15 nipotaway changed the nick to nipotan
01:16 pasteling "evalbot_r16796" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25970
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02:06 pugs_svnbot r16798 | kolibrie++ | trunk:
02:06 pugs_svnbot : initial import of regex/modifiers.t
02:06 pugs_svnbot : * I noticed that :c was not working
02:06 pugs_svnbot : * there are more modifiers that should be tested
02:06 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16798
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02:07 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
02:09 kolibrie maybe the :c tests should be marked todo
02:10 Psyche^ changed the nick to Patterner
02:10 agentzh .oO( hacking on win32 is painful )
02:13 dazjorz heh, the pugs_svnbot raises karma for each commit?
02:14 dazjorz that must've been one reason to reach r16798
02:14 justatheory joined #perl6
02:14 agentzh indeed
02:14 agentzh i can no longer cheat by breaking the log messages ;)
02:19 amnesiac joined #perl6
02:21 pugs_svnbot r16799 | agentz++ | trunk:
02:21 pugs_svnbot : [perl5/PCR]
02:21 pugs_svnbot : t/lib/Regex: fixed a vim skewup
02:21 pugs_svnbot : t/lib/Emitter.pm: generated the updated test
02:21 pugs_svnbot :  scripts (*.t_) using the actual outputs under t/
02:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16799
02:23 pasteling "evalbot_r16798" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25971
02:27 pugs_svnbot r16800 | agentz++ | trunk:
02:27 pugs_svnbot : PCR - t::lib::Emitter - generates *.t_ under t/emitter/ instead
02:27 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16800
02:28 diakopter changed the nick to diakopter_afk
02:28 pugs_svnbot r16801 | agentz++ | trunk:
02:28 pugs_svnbot : PCR - calls use_test_base() in Makefile.PL to bundle Test::Base with inc/.
02:28 pugs_svnbot : note that it's not required for end-users to install  Test::Base but it's required for developers to install T::B 0.53 or better :)
02:28 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16801
02:28 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
02:28 dazjorz agentzh: alternatively, you could do one larger commit, with the only disadvantage being your karma doesn't rise that quickly. ;)
02:29 diakopter agentzh++ agentzh++ agentzh++
02:29 pugs_svnbot r16802 | agentz++ | trunk:
02:29 pugs_svnbot : PCR - added *.t_ to MANIFEST.SKIP and updated MANIFEST.
02:29 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16802
02:30 agentzh dazjorz: sorry for the noises but i've already got used to small commits...
02:33 pasteling "evalbot_r16800" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25972
02:35 agentzh @tell fglock see r16801
02:35 agentzh sigh. lambdabot is away...
02:35 diakopter I think lambdabot bit the dust
02:35 diakopter er, I know it did
02:35 agentzh heh
02:36 diakopter all the hateflames killed it.
02:36 * agentzh misses lambdabot.
02:36 dazjorz agentzh: no problem to me :) I don't usually work on projects with a lot of people working on the same files, so I commit at most five times a day
02:37 dazjorz agentzh: next to that, my commitbot in #codeyard spits out only one line for each commit, and pasts the log message and file info (changed files, etc) to http://paster.dazjorz.com, so it's not as noisy =)
02:37 agentzh dazjorz: i prefer small commits because i often forget what i've done
02:37 dazjorz agentzh: that's what we have svn diff for ;)
02:37 * agentzh is lazy ;)
02:39 agentzh nmake is tooooooo slow. i'd go home and continue hacking in my ubuntu box
02:39 dazjorz heh
02:39 dazjorz [04:37] * agentzh is lazy ;)
02:39 dazjorz ...he said after the fifth commit
02:39 dazjorz fourth, sorry
02:39 agentzh later &
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03:45 Aankhen`` <@diakopter> moritz: (since it urlizes the revision number already in the first line) # just had a thought: you could prefix an [off] in the mean time. <G>
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03:45 * Aankhen`` wonders why the bot continues to put a : in front of commit messages.
03:48 * Aankhen`` also wonders whether linking SXX to the spec.pugscode.org document would be useful.
03:59 unobe Aankhen``: doesn't SXX already do that? http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-05-26#id_l101
03:59 unobe or do you mean without the line number?
04:03 Aankhen`` The latter, yes.
04:06 weinig changed the nick to intern
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04:26 pugs_svnbot r16803 | Aankhen++ | trunk:
04:26 pugs_svnbot : * [irclog] fresh batch of abbreviations.
04:26 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16803
04:35 pugs_svnbot r16804 | Aankhen++ | trunk:
04:35 pugs_svnbot : * [irclog] style tweaks.
04:35 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16804
04:37 pasteling "evalbot_r16803" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25973
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04:38 Aankhen`` ?eval "$(<1 2>.pick)"
04:38 evalbot_r16791 changed the nick to evalbot_r16804
04:38 evalbot_r16804 "\$(<1 2>.pick)"
04:38 Aankhen`` Is $(...) supposed to interpolate?
04:40 TimToady yes, it is
04:40 Aankhen`` Okay, just wanted to confirm.
04:41 Aankhen`` Hmm, maybe svnbot's diff link could be integrated into the first line.
04:41 Aankhen`` Like so: r16804 | Aankhen++ | trunk | http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16804
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04:49 unobe Aankhen``: that looks nice :-)
04:54 lidden ?eval "{<1 2>.pick}"
04:54 evalbot_r16804 "1"
04:59 TimToady ?eval "{ $(<1 2>.pick) }"
04:59 evalbot_r16804 "1"
04:59 TimToady ?eval "{ $(my $x = <1 2>.pick) } $x"
04:59 evalbot_r16804 "2 "
05:00 TimToady ?eval "$(my $x = <1 2>.pick)  $x"
05:00 evalbot_r16804 "\$(my  = <1 2>.pick)  "
05:00 weinig joined #perl6
05:00 TimToady that oughta work
05:02 TimToady ?eval $(my $x = <1 2>.pick) ~ $x
05:02 evalbot_r16804 "22"
05:02 TimToady and that's what it should do, give or take a space or two
05:02 amnesiac is pick like a random choser?
05:02 TimToady no, it's not like a random chooser, it *is* a random chooser. :)
05:03 amnesiac yay!
05:03 amnesiac nice nice then
05:03 TimToady it gets better
05:03 TimToady ?eval (1..52).pick(5)
05:03 evalbot_r16804 (30, 46, 13, 17, 21)
05:03 amnesiac :O
05:03 TimToady ?eval (1..10).pick(*)
05:03 evalbot_r16804 (5, 3, 8, 2, 10, 7, 1, 6, 9, 4)
05:04 amnesiac a shuffle?
05:04 TimToady and there's your shuffle
05:04 amnesiac yay!
05:04 TimToady and it can even be a lazy shuffle
05:07 amnesiac all of that is implemented in Haskell only?
05:08 TimToady currently
05:09 TimToady presumably the parrot version would not be in Haskell. :)
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05:10 amnesiac TimToady, have you guys benchmarked parrot impl and pugs one?
05:10 amnesiac of *anything*
05:11 TimToady no, but parrot tends to run faster than p5, and pugs is known to be about 170 times slower than p5, give or take
05:11 TimToady pugs has had basically no optimization done to it
05:11 TimToady except for slurping in precompiled Prelude and such
05:13 amnesiac TimToady, and is there a point in optimizing pugs? I mean, everything is just a prototype to be cleaned later? or just stays as a prototype implementation?
05:14 TimToady depends on lots of things
05:15 TimToady mostly it just depends on who gets motivated to do what when
05:16 amnesiac well, thing is.. (at least me) Haskell is not as popular as C, at least among most of the Perlers...
05:17 TimToady eventually most of the compiler will be written in Perl 6, so it's really only the runtime that would have to pick a different language for efficiency
05:17 TimToady if the Perl 6 compiler gets good enough, even large gobs of the runtime could be written in Perl 6
05:18 TimToady we already have a Prelude, after all.
05:19 TimToady for instance, .pick could pretty easily be written in the Prelude, though it isn't currently
05:20 amnesiac so, the random number generator, and the shuffle algorithm, is Haskell builtin?
05:20 TimToady and longer term, most of this stuff *should* be in Perl 6 at least optionally to support portability
05:20 TimToady currently Haskell
05:21 amnesiac okip
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05:32 TimToady 'bout that time...
05:34 Aankhen`` buu: Why's dalekbot so slow?
05:34 TimToady flooding avoidance?
05:34 jedai joined #perl6
05:34 Aankhen`` Yeh, but this way is pretty much useless, isn't it?
05:34 TimToady depends on how many zombies they have
05:34 Aankhen`` (Aside from preventing them from returning, which I'll admit is definitely needed.)
05:36 AfterDeath does dalekbot use POE?
05:36 Aankhen`` PoCo-IRC, yes.
05:36 AfterDeath :<
05:36 Aankhen`` buu: You might want to turn off PoCo-IRC's flood protection and write your own. :-)
05:37 TimToady I have some hot sauce named "After Death" :)
05:37 Aankhen`` (Just kidding.)
05:37 AfterDeath I wrote a flawless flood protection mod, but it's for Net::IRC :|
05:37 Aankhen`` …although one thing that might help is to group bans.
05:38 TimToady they all seem to come on within a few seconds of each other
05:38 Jmax PoCo-IRC has built-in flood protection
05:39 AfterDeath With my flood protection, you still get an initial burst of 5 messages or so
05:51 Aankhen`` 398 lines marked as spam... woo.
05:52 Aankhen`` Yah, go dalekbot.
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05:58 metaxyy_fw Abrupt (that is to say, IRC-appropriate) question from a random coder: the traffic to this channel in the logs has followed a major downward trend.  Can I take this to mean that a lot of the dev talk is moving to some other venue which I've never read about?
06:01 TimToady a lot of stuff is currently going on irc.perl.org's #parrot, and last week on #hackathon
06:02 TimToady a lot of us #perl6'ers have been off conferencing
06:04 TimToady and audrey is still in recovery mode from her illness earlier this year, among other things
06:06 TimToady and when audrey is unable to participate, the other haskellers tend not to feel confident enough to mess with her code.
06:06 metaxyy_fw Er...
06:07 metaxyy_fw That was a little like having a theological question answered by God ;)
06:07 TimToady and basically right now we're concentrated on getting the standard grammar bootstrapped onto P5 and parrot
06:08 TimToady as a long term goal, with different folks approaching that from different directions
06:09 metaxyy_fw So, as long as The Man himself is here, let me clarify something that (short of reading through pugs source) is difficult to extract from the apocalypses and the like
06:09 TimToady mostly we all miss audrey very much, and hope she gets better soon, but are all quite willing to give her all the time she needs to get there.
06:10 TimToady what would you like to know?
06:11 metaxyy_fw Is there a literal rep for ASTs or is it an abstract thing that macros can generate fairly effectively with that closure-ish syntax, though not quite manipulate as intensively as e.g. a hash?
06:12 TimToady well, $ast.perl should print out a literal rep of an AST, but mostly we deal with it in the abstract as a tree
06:12 TimToady quasi-quoting makes that pretty easy
06:12 TimToady 'course, it's not implemented yet
06:13 TimToady or at least not completely
06:13 TimToady macros is one of the last things in the official pugs plan
06:13 metaxyy_fw The thing I have in mind (not that I'm stumping for it, since it would likely be rather hard) is something like the direct code twiddling that homoiconic languages like Lisp and Tcl could do
06:13 metaxyy_fw Those always have bland Polish syntaxes though since the structures would be agonizingly complex otherwise
06:14 TimToady I don't doubt that someone will come up with such an AST rep
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06:15 metaxyy_fw You mean as a package or the like (since Perl6 is so perversely, impossibly extensible), not necessarily in the core, right?
06:15 TimToady it'll look like a bunch of nested constructors, mostly, so we're pretty close to being able to write such in native p6
06:16 TimToady it's not clear what "core" means these days
06:16 TimToady but certainly if it's very useful, we'll want to have it close to hand
06:16 metaxyy_fw In the traditional frankenstinian Perl development mode ;)
06:17 metaxyy_fw (in the best possible sense, obviously <g>)
06:17 TimToady mostly we have to be very clear about what our names mean
06:18 TimToady which is why we're taking so much care about the module naming scheme
06:18 buu Hrm.
06:18 TimToady you want to avoid a lot of context dependencies there
06:18 TimToady so we include version and naming authority in the "long name"
06:19 TimToady a consistent naming scheme means we can actually distribute the bits better
06:20 TimToady anyway, AST stuff is as likely to be "core" as anything
06:21 metaxyy_fw You're essentially saying by the time 6 comes out, it'll probably be homoiconic, which is yet another awesome kitchen sink <g>
06:21 Aankhen`` Sorry to interrupt, but what is "homoiconic"?
06:22 metaxyy_fw It means the language is written in a data type that it can itself store (Lisp and lists, Tcl and strings and... pretty much nothing else.)
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06:22 Aankhen`` Ah, right.
06:23 Aankhen`` I didn't realize Tcl was homiconic too.
06:23 metaxyy_fw I don't know if the literal rep has to be the same as the one you code in for it to count, which what Larry's proposing wouldn't be, but it's close at any rate.
06:24 TimToady it only has to be isomorphic to homoiconic :)
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06:24 TimToady and with an official grammar to translate between, I think it can be isomorphic, mostly
06:25 shachaf Does Template Haskell count?
06:26 metaxyy_fw Aankhen: Yeah, e.g. "if" is just a function that you pass a string in a mini-language for expressions for the condition, a string of code for the true condition, and a string of code for the false condition (optional but invariably used placeholder arg  "else" between 2 and 3).  Much like the if in lisp, but with the sugary else and the DSL for infix expressions for the condition, which both make it more readable.
06:28 Aankhen`` metaxyy_fw: "make it more readable" is debatable. ;-)
06:31 metaxyy_fw Aankhen: Are you implying that anything is less readable than Lisp?  ;)
06:31 TimToady Tcl, like Lisp, basically imposes its One True Grammar on the text, and things are very flexible within that constraint.  Perl 6 does something similar, except it hands back control of the One True Grammar to the user, such that we can pretty much always do a one-pass parse even with mutating grammars, and assign the semantics on the fly, rather than delegating the semantics after the initial parse.
06:32 Aankhen`` metaxyy_fw: Indeed I am.
06:32 Aankhen`` metaxyy_fw: I find Lisp very readable.
06:32 Aankhen`` …okay, not quite.  I find Lisp fairly readable, if a tad less than most mainstream languages.
06:33 amnesiac I find asm very readable!
06:34 metaxyy_fw It's certainly easier to understand, but so far, to my untrained eyes, it doesn't make any concessions to (possibly innate, possibly acculturated) cognitive preferences like infix operators.  I like the consistent grammar because of the uber-easy homoiconicity it offers--extremely fond, in fact--but I never try to sell it on its readability)
06:34 metaxyy_fw Easier to understand in terms of breaking it down to its individual operations, I should say (not easier to understand at a quick read)
06:34 Aankhen`` Eh, I don't sell it, I just know I find it fairly easy to read.  Then again, I tend to have some weird preferences.
06:35 TimToady I tend to have some weird precedences...
06:36 Aankhen`` TimToady: Don't we know it. ;-)
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06:38 metaxyy_fw For reference, Lisp vs. Tcl: (if (eq (+ 1 2) 3) (print "OK") (print "impossible")   vs.   if {1 + 2 == 3} {puts "OK"}  else {puts "impossible"}
06:38 shachaf metaxyy_fw: You want =, not eq.
06:38 metaxyy_fw Tcl is a weird Lisp dialect that uses a lot of tricks to act like a normal dynamic language
06:39 TimToady ?eval if 1 + 2 == 3 { say "OK" } else { say "impossible" }
06:39 evalbot_r16804 OUTPUT[OK␤] Bool::True
06:39 shachaf metaxyy_fw: And you're missing a ')', actually.
06:39 metaxyy_fw shachaf: Bah, fine.
06:39 Aankhen`` Heh.
06:39 metaxyy_fw If that were Scheme and the branches had multiple lines I'd need to wrap them in lambdas, right?
06:39 metaxyy_fw I don't speak Lisp :P
06:40 Aankhen`` Dunno about Scheme, but in Lisp you wrap it in a `progn` if you need multiple lines.
06:40 Aankhen`` Er.
06:40 Aankhen`` In Common Lisp, sorry.
06:40 metaxyy_fw I think it's the same in Scheme with lambdas
06:40 shachaf Aankhen``: In Scheme progn is called begin.
06:40 Aankhen`` Ah.
06:41 * Aankhen`` is still a Lisp neophyte.
06:42 Aankhen`` Dangit, I still can't find any place to read about delimited continuations.
06:42 metaxyy_fw "begin" would look good in code but it doesn't really describe what it does as a function, that'd be a better name for an algol-style block delimiter (like Ruby's "do") than a function that takes code.
06:43 TimToady I think { ... } is a cool way to write lambdas
06:43 TimToady technically the blocks in the p6 if/else are lambdas
06:44 TimToady so basically p6 forces you to use lambdas, but makes it easy
06:44 metaxyy_fw Another step toward Lispy homoiconicity <g>
06:44 Aankhen`` LOL.
06:45 TimToady The Lisp folks can think that if they like.  :)
06:45 Aankhen`` Everyone's got a share in the pie.
06:45 metaxyy_fw They probably wouldn't like that, since they like to think that s-expresions may be the only good way to do metaprogramming and macros.
06:46 metaxyy_fw I'm agnostic on the matter so far, since I haven't studied it yet
06:46 metaxyy_fw in depth
06:47 TimToady s-expressions certainly make things easy for the computer; pity about the user...
06:48 TimToady ?eval multi postfix:<!> ($n) { [*] 1..$n }; say 42!
06:48 evalbot_r16804 OUTPUT[1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000␤] Bool::True
06:48 metaxyy_fw I also couldn't quite tell from the Apocalypses whether 6's control structures were true functions yet?  You could probably fake it up Tcl-style with else as a bareword, or macros, or whatever other relevant syntax voodo 6 adds.  Larry's eval shows they're expressions (or if is, anyway), but that's not all the way.
06:48 TimToady I think that's the right way to do it.
06:49 TimToady it's all syntactic sugar over a few basic primitives
06:50 TimToady but the grammatical categories make it easy to modify just the parts of the grammar you want to modify
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06:51 TimToady welcome back, dalekbot
06:52 metaxyy_fw But if isn't (and doesn't call) an actual specific if function to do its work.
06:52 TimToady the user doesn't need to know either way
06:53 metaxyy_fw Still, it's interesting both from design0p;/ce and perverse language modification reasons.
06:53 metaxyy_fw Bah, stupid broken keyboard.
06:53 metaxyy_fw *for* both those reasons.
06:54 TimToady a lot of the design of Perl 6 is carefully distinguishing where the user has to care from where they don't have to care
06:54 metaxyy_fw Heh--good idea.
06:54 TimToady and there are very few arbitrary lists that have to be memorized any more
06:55 metaxyy_fw With C, the user always needs to describe for themselves what's going on :P
06:55 TimToady there are very few true keywords that aren't really just multimethods or macros
06:56 TimToady you no longer have to keep track of which identifiers are truly global
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06:56 TimToady you no longer have to keep track of which punctuation is meta in regexen
06:57 TimToady you no longer have to keep track of which built-ins are overridable and which aren't
06:57 TimToady or which ones default to $_
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06:58 metaxyy_fw Excellent.
06:58 TimToady you don't have to keep track of which } need a ; after
06:58 TimToady unlike in C and Perl 5
06:59 TimToady "you don't have to keep track of" is a recurring theme in p6
07:00 TimToady you don't have to know which control structures are builtin and which are user-defined elsewhere--a "return" will still always return from your current sub
07:00 TimToady even if passed in as part of a closure to some user-defined code and executed elsewhere
07:01 TimToady you don't have to keep track of which control structures make hidden lexical scopes like you do in p5
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07:03 TimToady well, that's probably enough to start with.  :)
07:04 Aankhen`` Hmm, I'm having a little trouble understanding where Perl 6 is lazy by default.
07:04 Aankhen`` Is it just lists?
07:05 TimToady basically, yes
07:05 Aankhen`` So in `foo(bar(), baz(), quux())`, is that a lazy list or a Capture or something?
07:06 Aankhen`` The arguments, that is.
07:07 TimToady function args are in a Capture until bound to formal parameters
07:08 TimToady however, I think the sub functions are called eagerly even though the list may be lazy
07:08 Aankhen`` I see.
07:08 TimToady and would generally be told they're in list context.
07:08 TimToady regardless of the eventual binding
07:08 Aankhen`` So this would be pointless: foo(lazy { bar() }, lazy { baz() }, lazy { quux() })
07:08 TimToady could conceivably make it even lazier
07:09 Aankhen`` Whereas this might have a useful effect: lazy { foo(bar(), baz(), quux() }
07:09 TimToady could be
07:09 Aankhen`` (Sorry for being obtuse, I'm just a little disoriented.)
07:13 TimToady I think a lazy object would be considered a scalar for purposes of binding, even if evaluating it would produce a list.
07:15 TimToady well, speaking of disoriented, I should probably go to bed before I emit even more nonsense
07:16 Aankhen`` Bonne nuit, in that case. :-)
07:17 TimToady but basically, we do have to evaluate things early enough to give multis some type info to work with for the positional args
07:17 TimToady zzz &
07:18 args I don't feel much positional this morning
07:19 * TimToady .oO(you look rather named to me...)
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07:26 metaxyy_fw Thanks a bunch for the wisdom, sleep well.
07:30 rintaro_ joined #perl6
07:33 meppl good morning
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08:12 Psyche^ changed the nick to Patterner
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08:17 lumi http://blog.moertel.com/articles/2005/03/25/writing-a-simple-ruby-evaluator-in-haskell -- Very strange semantics in Ruby
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09:04 fmerges hi all
09:13 pugs_svnbot r16805 | agentz++ | trunk:
09:13 pugs_svnbot : PCR - checks Test::Base on the developer side in Makefile.PL
09:13 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16805
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09:43 pugs_svnbot r16806 | agentz++ | trunk:
09:43 pugs_svnbot : smartlinks.pl - removed trailing spaces in JS and skipped S26 when --check is specified
09:43 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16806
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09:45 pasteling "evalbot_r16805" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25977
09:47 Aankhen`` What's up with the evalbot?  Why does it keep failing to build?
09:48 lumi Looks like an environment mess? Not sure
09:48 Aankhen`` lumi: I command you to fix it!
09:49 lumi Jawohl!
09:49 lumi I'm not sure where that (null) could have come from...
09:49 lumi Anyone have clue?
09:51 Aankhen`` Seems to be a GHC thing.
10:20 agentzh just updated smartlinks_data.tar.gz on feather :)
10:21 agentzh Aankhen``: are you working on the HTML emitter for pod6?
10:21 agentzh Aankhen``: that may be a good chance for me to tweak *your* work ;)
10:22 agentzh i'm thinking about a pod5 emitter for pod6
10:26 agentzh wow, STD.pm is 44 pages long while mp6 is just 42 ;)
10:27 agentzh fglock: i've introduced the $NoCache variable to Pugs::Compiler::Regex since caching is bad for emitter testing
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10:31 pugs_svnbot r16807 | agentz++ | trunk:
10:31 pugs_svnbot : PCR - removed trailing spaces in Pugs::Compiler::Regex
10:31 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16807
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10:43 pasteling "evalbot_r16807" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25978
10:44 pugs_svnbot r16808 | agentz++ | trunk:
10:44 pugs_svnbot : PCR - fixed a bug in Pugs::Compiler::Regex->compile regarding params handling and also added t/16-misc.t to test it
10:44 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16808
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11:02 thoughtpolice mornin' everybody. :)
11:03 agentzh thoughtpolice: morning
11:03 agentzh (although it's evening here ;))
11:03 thoughtpolice 6:00am here. although my bsd/linux clocks are always out of sync
11:03 agentzh it's 7:03 PM here
11:03 thoughtpolice i should probably go through the effort to set up a ntp client on them.
11:04 * agentzh pondering testing PCR via mocking...
11:08 pugs_svnbot r16809 | agentz++ | trunk:
11:08 pugs_svnbot : Pugs::Compiler::Regex - documented the C<compile>, C<perl>, C<perl5> methods and the C<> package variable
11:08 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16809
11:10 agentzh oh, i should have used single quotes while committing...$NoCache interpolates in "..."
11:14 lumi Aankhen``: Okay, I don't have an angle on it
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11:32 diakopter_afk changed the nick to diakopter
11:44 |mjk| agentzh:where are you use chinese to talk?
11:46 agentzh |mjk|: what?
11:48 * agentzh doesn't quite understand.
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11:52 pugs_svnbot r16810 | agentz++ | trunk:
11:52 pugs_svnbot : [PCR]
11:52 pugs_svnbot : * renamed t/16-misc.t to t/04-compiler-regex.t
11:52 pugs_svnbot : * documented the C<install>, C<reinstall>, and C<code> methods in
11:52 pugs_svnbot :   Pugs::Compile::Regex's POD
11:52 pugs_svnbot : * added tests for these methods in 04-compiler-regex.t
11:52 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16810
11:53 agentzh PCR needs more pod, or i'll have to check the tests and source too often ;)
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11:55 |mjk| agentzh,:�Բ���������������������������������
11:55 agentzh |mjk|: a sec
11:55 pasteling "evalbot_r16809" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25980
11:56 * agentzh goes to adjust his encoding
11:56 agentzh |mjk|: oh, you're using GB2312...
11:56 agentzh try #perlchina?
11:57 |mjk| yes
11:57 |mjk| OK
11:57 agentzh my client can only display utf-8
11:59 thoughtpolice screen is the best utility ever. being able to share an irssi session inbetween two seperate computers is too nifty. :)
12:02 agentzh |mjk|: you can try MSN. my account is agentzh@gmail.com
12:02 buetow and there is now also a patch doing vertical split in screen.
12:04 agentzh moritz: any plan to add support for the GB2312 encoding to ilbot?
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12:05 lumi thoughtpolice: Never /quit again!
12:06 thoughtpolice lumi: i wish. this box has regular downtime. :( (my linux/obsd boxes are in vmware on windows.)
12:07 thoughtpolice funny enough though I never actually use vmware to interact with them. i just use putty to open a ssh session to them since it's more convenient. :)
12:07 lichtkind joined #perl6
12:08 agentzh heh
12:09 thoughtpolice and i never use xorg anyway. boo-yah. :)
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12:20 moritz re
12:21 agentzh moritz: i know the answer is "you can hack that in yourself" ;)
12:21 moritz agentzh: ilbot just copies byte by byte into the database...
12:21 agentzh moritz: cool!
12:22 agentzh so that's just a display issue
12:22 moritz agentzh: and for the hacking.. you are right ;) I don't know anything about GB* encodings, and have no means to test it...
12:22 agentzh i'll copy my charset detecting code to irclog
12:23 moritz agentzh: the easiest thing might be to look at IrcLog.pm, it has a custom encoding routine, that uses Encode::Guess and falls back to utf-8...
12:23 moritz agentzh: if you hack that, you're done
12:23 agentzh yay, thanks for the info!
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13:32 agentzh moritz: what encoding are these chars in? http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-04-19#id_l51
13:32 agentzh (i mean encodings other than utf8, of course ;))
13:33 agentzh it's not latin-1
13:35 moritz agentzh: they are utf-8
13:36 agentzh moritz: i know that. i'm trying to use a different encoding
13:36 lumi You mean what other encodings they might exist in?
13:36 agentzh lumi: exactly
13:36 moritz agentzh: ... then what is you question?
13:36 moritz ok
13:36 moritz i think it's korean or something
13:37 moritz for 'sudoku' ;)
13:37 agentzh i'm writing some unit tests to exercise the encoding guessing algorithm ;)
13:37 agentzh moritz: okay
13:37 moritz agentzh: unit tests for IrcLog.pm? cool ;)
13:37 lumi It's Korean, I'm not sure what encodings they have
13:37 agentzh moritz: yup
13:38 agentzh i think i'd better check my tests in
13:38 agentzh then everyone can add test cases with odd encodings ;)
13:38 moritz agentzh: actually I never thought about that, because it was such an ad-hoc solution ;)
13:38 moritz agentzh: but of course that's no good reason to mit test cases
13:39 moritz the initial goal was just to bring up something working very fast ;)
13:39 agentzh moritz: but it's growing very quickly ;)
13:39 moritz agentzh: that's -Ofun ;)
13:39 agentzh indeed
13:39 agentzh Aankhen``++ moritz++
13:39 moritz next step is to sort the index by month
13:39 * agentzh is joining the -Ofun group
13:40 moritz or perhaps aligned as a calendar?
13:41 moritz atm I don't have access to my laptop (missing power supply :() so no -Ofun-coding for me until thursday or friday :(
13:41 moritz and it's neither fun on windows nor via ssh on a unix maschine
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13:42 agentzh heh
13:43 lumi moritz: Live CD?
13:43 agentzh using a calendar is an interesting idea
13:43 moritz lumi: might be an idea ;)
13:44 agentzh svn ci is so slow....
13:45 agentzh finally committed...
13:45 pugs_svnbot r16811 | fglock++ | trunk:
13:45 pugs_svnbot : [kp6] EmitPerl5Regex - more primitives; regex-as-method wrapper
13:45 pugs_svnbot r16812 | agentz++ | trunk:
13:45 pugs_svnbot : [IrcLog]
13:45 pugs_svnbot : * added sub decode_by_guessing to IrcLog and inserted my encoding
13:45 pugs_svnbot :   guessing algorithm to sub my_encode
13:45 pugs_svnbot : * added t/decode.t to test the new IrcLog::my_encode
13:45 pugs_svnbot :   (currently Big5, GB2312, UTF-8, latin-1 are tested)
13:45 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16812
13:47 agentzh feather suddenly slows down...
13:47 agentzh because the autosmoke is running?
13:47 agentzh i've nice'd it i believe
13:48 agentzh moritz: please update irclog to your server so that i can see how it works out ;)
13:49 moritz agentzh: done
13:49 agentzh moritz: thanks
13:50 agentzh sigh. it doesn't work...
13:50 moritz agentzh: the unicode test that you posted the link to earlier fails :(
13:51 agentzh weird
13:51 agentzh the unit tests are passing...
13:51 agentzh investigating
13:53 agentzh weird
13:54 agentzh my_encode returns the string in the right encoding (utf8)
13:54 moritz agentzh: maybe it's a database issue? I don't know what magic mysql does (I hope none at all)
13:55 agentzh moritz: is the decode.t passing for you?
13:56 agentzh i mean t/decode.t
13:57 * agentzh is just too lazy to set up a mysql db himself.
13:57 moritz agentzh: sorry, no Test::Base on my server, wait a moment
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13:57 agentzh moritz: okay
14:02 moritz agentzh: my Test::Harness is too old :(
14:02 agentzh oh
14:03 agentzh make an upgrade?
14:03 agentzh .oO(don't tell me you're using perl 5.6.x )
14:03 moritz I'm not root, and not inclined to install modules locally that are installed globally as well
14:04 agentzh is it the use_ok thing?
14:04 moritz agentzh: no, it's 5.8.8
14:04 agentzh or are you experiencing problems while installing Test::Base?
14:06 moritz when I execute the test it says 'Test::Harness version 11 required -- this is only version 2.45 at /usr/8share/perl/5.8/Exporter/Heavy.pm line 107'
14:06 moritz damned, Test::Harness is not a subsitute for Text::Base, right?
14:06 moritz my fault
14:07 agentzh cpan Test::Base
14:07 agentzh it's ingy's work
14:08 moritz I asked my admin to install it
14:13 agentzh moritz: try r16813
14:13 pugs_svnbot r16813 | agentz++ | trunk:
14:13 pugs_svnbot : IrcLog - added some diagnostics and attempted a fix in my_encode
14:13 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16813
14:14 agentzh the problem with fixing is that i can't reproduce the encoding bug locally...
14:15 pasteling "evalbot_r16812" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25983
14:18 moritz agentzh: I get so many '\t adjusted to ""' warnings that I switched back to the previous revision
14:18 agentzh moritz: could you paste the output?
14:19 moritz agentzh: I don't want to spam my error logs with a few hundret warnings per request
14:19 agentzh there's no warnings on my side...
14:20 moritz http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/error.log
14:20 moritz the last few
14:20 moritz if you need more, let me know
14:21 agentzh these warnings don't make any sense to me...
14:21 agentzh i dunno where they came from...
14:22 agentzh is there any other warning?
14:22 agentzh such as "Warning: malformed data: ..."
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14:23 moritz agentzh: no
14:23 moritz which makes no sense at all
14:24 agentzh ah
14:24 agentzh i've finally seen the statement printing that crap
14:28 agentzh moritz: please try svn up
14:28 pugs_svnbot r16814 | agentz++ | trunk:
14:28 pugs_svnbot : IrcLog - removed some warnings
14:28 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16814
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14:30 moritz agentzh: check the error.log under the same URL as above
14:30 agentzh moritz: okay
14:31 agentzh cool, that's what i want
14:32 moritz agentzh: do you need more lines?
14:32 agentzh moritz: is there something different?
14:33 agentzh it seems the data is missing...
14:33 moritz agentzh: I don't thinks so
14:34 agentzh i believe it should  at least print out something even though it's messed up
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14:37 moritz agentzh: should I revert the server to a an older revision until UTF-8 is displayed correctly again?
14:38 agentzh moritz: okay
14:38 agentzh moritz: could please update your Encode and try again?
14:38 agentzh it seems your Encode is different from mine
14:38 agentzh *could you
14:43 pugs_svnbot r16815 | agentz++ | trunk:
14:43 pugs_svnbot : IrcLog - preserve UTF-8
14:43 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16815
14:44 moritz agentzh: sorry, I can't.. it's in the debian package 'perl', and I'm afraid It would break too much
14:44 agentzh moritz: understood
14:45 moritz agentzh: should I try again to update to HEAD?
14:45 agentzh yes please
14:45 daxim moritz,  untargz Encode.tar.gz ; perl Makefile.PL INSTALL_BASE=$HOME/perl ; make ; make install ; perl -I$HOME/perl/lib/perl5 -MEncode -e'print "modern!"'
14:46 agentzh moritz: i really want to hear if t/decode.t passes for you ;)
14:46 agentzh daxim: yeah, install Encode locally
14:48 agentzh as well as Test::Base. hehe
14:49 moritz I'd expected to find Encode as the first on search.cpan.org when I search for Encode :(
14:50 agentzh moritz: sorry for taking you so much time
14:50 agentzh moritz: setting up irclog on my side is not as simple as a jifty app. sigh.
14:51 moritz do you have a downloadlink for me for Encode.tar.gz?
14:51 * moritz is too stupid, sorry
14:51 agentzh a sec
14:52 agentzh http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/D/DA/DANKOGAI/Encode-2.23.tar.gz
14:54 ashleyb hmmm agentzh doesn't have an obfuscated email address in the irc log.
14:54 agentzh ashleyb: i have
14:54 ashleyb --->   http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-07-03#id_l426
14:54 agentzh ashleyb: @ is a picture
14:54 ashleyb hmmm
14:55 ashleyb heh -- that's cool
14:55 agentzh ashleyb: yeah, it is!
14:55 moritz installing... ;)
14:55 ashleyb had me fooled :D
14:55 moritz YaY
14:56 agentzh ashleyb: had me fooled too ;)
14:56 agentzh ashleyb: until i select it with a mouse
14:56 ashleyb it looks quite selectable in safari for me, what browser are you using?
14:57 findlay joined #perl6
14:57 agentzh firefox
14:57 findlay elinks
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14:58 moritz daxim: are you sure about INSTALL_BASE? I tried it, and that damned installer wants to overwrite my standard Encode.pm :(
14:59 daxim update ExtUtils::MakeMaker
14:59 |Jedai| changed the nick to jedai
15:02 agentzh daxim: updating anything globally seems unacceptable for moritz
15:03 daxim then first install EU::MM with PREFIX=$HOME/bootstrap, you can delete that later
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15:05 pugs_svnbot r16816 | agentz++ | trunk:
15:05 pugs_svnbot : [IrcLog] set charset to UTF-8 for t/decode.t
15:05 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16816
15:07 agentzh http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/irclog/t/decode.t
15:07 agentzh the tests seem okay to me
15:07 agentzh am i doing anything stupid there?
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15:10 moritz damned, Test::Base needs Spiffy in turn... :(
15:11 moritz agentzh: everything is fine was an up-to-date Encode here
15:12 agentzh moritz: hehe, i know that feeling...
15:12 agentzh t/decode.t is passing?
15:12 moritz agentzh: but of course that's not the Encode.pm the web interface uses
15:12 moritz agentzh: yes
15:12 agentzh yay
15:13 agentzh moritz: use lib ?
15:13 moritz but even with the old one it passes :(
15:13 agentzh oh...
15:16 agentzh my god
15:16 agentzh i think i'd better set up a db myself
15:17 agentzh it's easier to debug
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15:18 moritz no mysql on feather?
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15:28 moritz I reverted the server to r16804 until I have more moose time to spare to fix it(or somebody else does)
15:28 agentzh moritz: i'm trying locally
15:28 agentzh moritz: okay
15:28 moritz agentzh: when the guessing heuristics fail, do you still run encode("utf8", $str)?
15:28 thoughtpolice okay, i'm probably going to rewrite my little article on rules since in general I've felt 'icky' about it (I feel that one post in particular isn't up to the standards it should be. IOWs, it doesn't do rules justice.) so do you guys have any recommendations of what you'd like to see in it?
15:29 agentzh moritz: the latest version doesn't, i believe
15:29 agentzh but it used to
15:29 thoughtpolice so far I'm rebuilding pugs in a seperate spot on my disk and I'm configuring it to use PGE, so the implementation should be much more complete, thus, I should be able to cover more.
15:29 thoughtpolice so while that's happening I'm completely open to suggestions.
15:29 moritz thoughtpolice: you could elaborate more on the match object ;)
15:35 thoughtpolice moritz: anything else? i figure things like backtracking and whatnot are worth a shot; I'm going to try a different approach here
15:35 agentzh moritz: what encoding is the string fed into my_encode in?
15:36 agentzh moritz: plain bytes? or already in some other encoding?
15:37 moritz agentzh: "that thing that DBI/mysql return"
15:37 moritz thoughtpolice: backtracking is worth a go, yes
15:38 agentzh moritz: k
15:38 moritz agentzh: I hope that are the plain bytes that ilbot fed into the database, but I'm not entirely sure :)
15:39 moritz anyway, I'm off now :(
15:39 agentzh see you
15:39 offby1 ha, he thinks _he's_ off
15:40 * agentzh thinks encodings are painful
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15:50 agentzh night, all &
15:50 agentzh left #perl6
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16:30 clkao win 4
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16:42 blblack what's the status of grammar/rule support in pugs?
16:45 GabrielVieira2 changed the nick to GabrielVieira
16:49 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
16:50 fglock blblack: it's mostly supported, afaik
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16:52 blblack I have a little dslanguage I need to write as part of a longer-term research project, I was like at hacked up p5 solutions or p5 parsing modules, or direct lex/yacc, or even antlr.  Now I'm kinda leaning towards doing it in p6 using pugs for now.
16:52 blblack will be interesting anyways, and maybe I can help ferret out any remaining issues while I'm there :)
16:55 diakopter 'any remaining issues' :)
16:56 blblack I've got an svn copy of pugs built and running now, so just lie to me and let me think grammar/rules are pretty much ok, hopefully I won't realize what I've gotten into until it's too late, and then I'll have to submit patches to fix them :)
16:57 [particle] blblack: you'll probably find everything you need.
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17:03 jedai blblack: Yeah, go for it, it's pretty much okay... ^^
17:03 * jedai doesn't think it's bad to lie when asked to... :-)
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17:09 fglock_ blblack: I've used a p6 grammar in a CPAN module: http://search.cpan.org/src/FGLOCK/Pugs-Compiler-Rule-0.23/lib/Pugs/Grammar/Rule2.pm
17:10 fglock_ some cheats required, but it's doable
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17:49 thoughtpolice has the is parsed trait not been implemented for macro's yet in pugs? or is the syntax for it simply not precisely spec'd?
17:49 Tene thoughtpolice: you checked for tests on it yet?
17:50 TimToady macros are officially the last pugs milestone, if I recall
17:50 TimToady so support is rudimentary at best
17:51 TimToady the syntax is precisely specced, but the semantics are probably still a bit wobbly
17:52 thoughtpolice i figured.
17:53 thoughtpolice Tene: the tests I saw in S06 don't have any examples of is parsed
17:54 Tene operators/operator_overloading.t has a couple of tests for it.
17:56 TimToady but the syntax is incorrect there.  should be "is parsed(/.*?/)" because traits are parsed like adverbs after the "is ", assuming that stands in for :
18:00 thoughtpolice hm. i guess i'll just have to wait for them or get fed up and hack it up myself :p
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18:01 [particle] please do the latter ;)
18:14 thoughtpolice :>
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18:28 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
18:41 ibrown blah, anyone in this channel, as off topic as it may be, familiar with network socket programming of any sorts, and might be able to point me towards a solution?
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19:57 riffraff hi
19:58 TimToady howdy doo
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20:11 Aankhen`` @tell agentzh I sent DCONWAY a Perl6::Perldoc::To::Html, that's about the full extent of my contributions. :-)
20:11 Aankhen`` o noes
20:11 Aankhen`` COME BACK LAMBDABOT, I LOVE YOU
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20:18 thoughtpolice yes
20:18 thoughtpolice what happened to lambdabot? :(
20:18 Aankhen`` It died because of the spam, I believe.
20:18 thoughtpolice aw. :(
20:18 rintaro__ joined #perl6
20:18 SamB I think maybe it *left* because of the @tell spam
20:19 SamB it seems to be alive and kicking in #haskell
20:19 * Aankhen`` shrugs.
20:19 [particle] i suspect buu's anti-spam bot kicked it
20:19 SamB that sounds probable
20:19 Aankhen`` Sounds like something dalekbot would do.
20:19 thoughtpolice poor lambdabot. he didn't deserve this.
20:19 * Aankhen`` shakes a fist at buu and dalekbot.
20:19 SamB thoughtpolice: it's lambdabot's own fault for accepting all the @tell spam ;-)
20:20 SamB ... and publicly declaring this fact
20:20 SamB repeatedly
20:20 awwaiid stupid robots
20:20 thoughtpolice stupid dog
20:20 Aankhen`` Garbage in, garbage out. :-)
20:20 * [particle] is reminded to renew his 'greater php alliance' membership :)
20:21 SamB maybe lambdabot should store each person's messages in a Set
20:23 thoughtpolice [particle]: heresy!
20:24 [particle] who's gonna arrest me, you? :P
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20:24 * Tene laughs.
20:25 Aankhen`` OK, I'm adding my PHP entry to the abbreviations list. :-P
20:29 diakopter [particle]: no, dalekbot did not kick lambdabot
20:29 pugs_svnbot r16817 | Aankhen++ | trunk:
20:29 pugs_svnbot : * [irclog] fresh batch of abbrs.
20:29 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16817
20:29 diakopter before I cleansed the spam from that day, I saw where it died in the midst of the spamming
20:29 [particle] okay. that's good news.
20:31 pasteling "evalbot_r16816" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/25995
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20:53 thoughtpolice [particle]: your thought crimes do not escape me.
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21:15 meppl good night
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21:47 Limbic_Region does anyone know if the Win32/MinGW build problem got fixed from the 29th or is it still b0rk?
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21:51 Limbic_Region oh duh
21:51 Limbic_Region wrong channel
22:03 Aankhen`` We're on to you.
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22:14 hkb_lab changed the nick to hkb_zz
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22:58 Limbic_Region out of curiosity, anyone here besides audreyt have editing capability over pugscode.org ?
22:59 Limbic_Region or rather, http://planet.pugscode.org/
22:59 Limbic_Region which is linked to from pugscode.org
22:59 Limbic_Region it certainly isn't doing the right thing
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23:18 pugs_svnbot r16818 | Aankhen++ | trunk:
23:18 pugs_svnbot : * [irclog] fixed conflict between Content-Type as indicated by `meta` elements and Content-Type as indicated by HTTP headers.
23:18 pugs_svnbot r16819 | Aankhen++ | trunk:
23:18 pugs_svnbot : * [irclog] forgot to check in IrcLog::WWW
23:18 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16819
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23:34 TimToady Limbic_Region: well, they're really the same machine, and since you have an account there I'd suggest trying a sudo
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23:36 TimToady myself, I know next to nothing about rss feeds... :/
23:37 TimToady and very little more about virtual hosting

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