Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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03:00 diakopter @messages
03:00 lambdabot You don't have any new messages.
03:00 diakopter yes!
03:02 * Aankhen`` glances sideways at diakopter.
03:03 agentzh heh
03:03 lambdabot agentzh: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:03 agentzh @messages
03:03 lambdabot fglock said 15h 15m 55s ago: how about call the accessor/key "match", and include a "filename" or "str" pointer
03:03 agentzh i've got one :)
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03:05 Aankhen`` @moosages
03:05 lambdabot You don't have any new messages.
03:05 Aankhen`` Mwahaahahaha.
03:05 agentzh @tell fglock will do. but i prefer names leading with '_' :)
03:05 lambdabot Consider it noted.
03:05 Aankhen`` I prefer names with a leading *!
03:05 diakopter @tell Aankhen`` message this
03:05 lambdabot Consider it noted.
03:05 Aankhen`` $#*@)#*$@#*%$%&(^%&(#($@#
03:05 lambdabot Aankhen``: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:06 Aankhen`` There goes the neighbourhood.
03:09 Aankhen`` What the…?
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03:14 diakopter op #perl6
03:14 lambdabot diakopter: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:14 diakopter @mooooooooooooosages
03:14 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
03:14 diakopter @mooooosages
03:14 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
03:14 Aankhen`` dalek = nutty.
03:15 diakopter @moooosages
03:15 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
03:15 diakopter @mooosages
03:15 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
03:15 Aankhen`` You trying to get yourself banned again? :-P
03:15 Aankhen`` Uh.  That's a bit of a wide ban, isn't it?
03:15 Aankhen`` Ban (*!*@feather.perl6.nl) affects: dalek devbot6 evalbot_r16941 Juerd pugs_svnbot specbot6 wolverian
03:15 diakopter WHOA
03:15 diakopter yikes
03:16 Aankhen`` You diakopter, you.
03:16 diakopter sry :/
03:16 Aankhen`` Don't make me come over there.
03:16 * diakopter is bored waiting for mythbuntu to finish installing correctly for once
03:17 * Aankhen`` is reading "WhyAttributeGrammarsMatter".
03:17 Aankhen`` (Which involves trying to figure out what the heck an Attribute Grammar is.)
03:18 diakopter har.  I'm sure someone has written "Attribute Grammar[ian]s Considered Harmful"
03:18 Aankhen`` Heh, no doubt.
03:18 Aankhen`` I'd make a crack about "Computers Considered Harmful", but it wouldn't be very funny. :-\
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03:28 mncharity @tell fglock sorry I missed you.  I should be around early morning and late evening tomorrow (EST).
03:28 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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03:41 diakopter eeenteresting
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06:12 moritz moin
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06:13 agentzh morning!
06:13 unobe morning :-)
06:14 moritz can I tell `cpan' somehow to install into a different directory?
06:15 agentzh no idea
06:15 Aankhen`` moritz: You can probably pass PREFIX=/foo or INSTALL_BASE=/foo in the Makefile.PL args.
06:16 moritz I just downoaded the tarball manually now ;)
06:16 Aankhen`` Heh.
06:16 Alias_ moritz: o conf init, and set PREFIX=/path when it asks for Makefilel.PL params and Build.PL params
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06:18 pugs_svnbot r16957 | moritz++ | trunk:
06:18 pugs_svnbot : [irclog]
06:18 pugs_svnbot :  * added POD to IrcLog.pm and IrcLog/WWW.pm
06:18 pugs_svnbot :  * index.pl now displays all possible dates as a calendar
06:18 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16957
06:18 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16957 - Pugs - Trac
06:18 moritz Alias_: thanks
06:19 agentzh moritz++
06:20 moritz Aankhen``: the index page might welcome some HTML/CSS tweaking - it's just an evil hack atm ;)
06:20 moritz and I guess we need a big 'Today'-Link
06:20 pasteling "evalbot_r16956" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/26165
06:20 * agentzh will need Aankhen``'s help with CSS/HTML soon as well ;)
06:21 Aankhen`` Sure thing, but give me a few moments.  I need to sort out this thing with Vista switching keyboard layouts on me.
06:22 agentzh heh
06:22 * agentzh won't install vista anyway.
06:22 Aankhen`` Hmm.
06:22 Aankhen`` It seems to have something to do with the language bar.
06:23 Aankhen`` Oh, I should probably install Komodo so I can tweak stuff.
06:26 devbot6 dev: Ticket #14 (enhancement closed): More information in pugs -V output. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/14#comment:4>
06:26 pugs_svnbot r16958 | moritz++ | trunk:
06:26 pugs_svnbot : [irclog] added 'Today'-Link to index page
06:26 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16958
06:26 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16958 - Pugs - Trac
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06:34 moritz index page is slow now :( - propably due to too much Date::Simple magic
06:34 moritz I wonder if I should fix it, or cache it ;)
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07:02 pasteling "evalbot_r16958" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/26168
07:02 pugs_svnbot r16959 | moritz++ | trunk:
07:02 pugs_svnbot : [irclog]
07:02 pugs_svnbot :  * much more efficient index calendar creation (less date magic)
07:02 pugs_svnbot :  * whitespace/tab fixes in cgi/index.pl
07:02 pugs_svnbot :  * fixed vim modelin in cgi/index.pl
07:02 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16959
07:02 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16959 - Pugs - Trac
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08:43 meppl good morning
08:43 moritz hi meppl ;)
08:43 masak mornin', meppl
08:43 meppl good morning moritz
08:44 lumi Morning, M people
08:44 masak ;)
08:44 meppl good morning masak and lunik
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08:45 moritz any comments regarding the new irclog index page?
08:46 moritz it certainly looks neat, but it wastes space as well
08:50 masak moritz: url?
08:51 moritz masak: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/
08:51 lambdabot Title: IRC logs
08:51 moritz and as a comparison the old one: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:5uibCq-x2xQJ:moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/+site:moritz.faui2k3.org+irclog+index&amp;hl=de&amp;ct=clnk&amp;cd=1&amp;client=iceweasel-a
08:51 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yp8qyt
08:52 masak definitely an improvement
08:52 masak I think it wastes space in a good way
08:53 masak if you're too worried about it, I'd suggest adding some CSS to remove the table cell borders
08:53 moritz I'll let Aankhen`` do that, I don't want to take that pleasure from him ;)
08:54 masak ok, me neither ;)
08:54 moritz unfortunately HTML::Calendar::Simple is not so CSS friendly
08:55 masak nothing is set in stone
08:55 moritz aye ;)
08:56 Alias_ Although building in CSS support from the start helps a LOT
08:56 Alias_ <-- PPI::HTML
08:57 moritz Alias_: do you know by chance if PPI or Text::VimColor generate "better" markup for perl?
08:58 Alias_ PPI::HTML is by far the most accurate markup in existance
08:58 wolverian vim isn't particularly accurate.
08:58 Alias_ You might need to play and tweak the CSS a bit, and maybe subclass PPI::HTML for anything esoteric
08:58 Alias_ But it's absolutely better than anything else
08:59 Alias_ Just a bit of a CPU hog for big files (because of PPI)
08:59 moritz Alias_: ok I'll try it out
08:59 Alias_ I was using an Apache plugin for a while, but then google started trawling my repository and it killed the server somewhat
08:59 moritz vim has the advantag of knowing >300  languages/config files
08:59 Alias_ ya
09:00 moritz Alias_: use robots.txt ;)
09:00 Alias_ I do now
09:00 Alias_ After google deleted a production database
09:00 Alias_ Because I accidentally left a database management web app exposed, and it went down the tool.pl/DatabaseSetup?cmd=purge;db=whatever link
09:01 moritz :(
09:01 Alias_ ya, not fun
09:01 Alias_ Big lesson for the future though
09:02 Alias_ I'm going to rewrite my connection pool at some point so that it only hands out read-only connections to GET requests
09:02 moritz "never leeave a management toll without password protection"
09:02 Alias_ Oh it had password support
09:03 Alias_ The config file got reset due to version control,  and if the config doesn't list a password, it doesn't use it
09:03 Alias_ Something multi-factor like that from memory
09:03 moritz ouch
09:13 trippeh Heh, any data modifying action should be a POST though, not GET...
09:13 trippeh This is one of the reasons
09:13 Alias_ yep
09:13 wolverian or PUT, but ...
09:13 wolverian (or DELETE, for that matter)
09:13 Alias_ Although this makes data-stored sessions interesting
09:13 * wolverian wishes browsers weren't so crippled
09:13 Alias_ Because strictly speaking you couldn't nudge last_request dates on the session in a GET
09:14 Alias_ (which could be bad, but I'm not sure)
09:15 Alias_ Maybe I could rejigger it so that it had permissions to update the session table, but that's all
09:15 Alias_ Instead of being a pure readonly connection
09:16 Alias_ I suspect my connection-pooling needs are getting complex enough to write a standalone module :)
09:16 Alias_ 3 classes of connections (shared read-only, shared auto-commit, and transaction pool)
09:16 Blwood[dodo] changed the nick to Blwood
09:16 moritz Alias_: are you writing a http server in perl?
09:17 Alias_ Just regular webapps
09:17 Alias_ But I have a fairly interesting ORM layer
09:17 Alias_ Better than anyone else, in my opinion
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09:17 Alias_ But unfortunately based on code-generation, so not CPAN'able
09:17 moritz self made?
09:17 Alias_ yeah
09:18 Alias_ I talk to mst quite a bit, and he's gradually stealing some of the better ideas from it
09:18 moritz ORM-Compiler, YaY
09:18 Alias_ for DBIx::Class
09:18 moritz (idea stealing)++
09:18 masak Alias_: what's particularly good about it?
09:19 Alias_ You design the structure in entity-relational terms
09:19 Alias_ And the codegen produces both a sane schema and sane code to talk to it
09:19 masak nice
09:19 Alias_ And it can handle 100% of all structures
09:19 Alias_ Handles importing and exporting circular data references
09:19 masak so far it sounds like Hibernate to me
09:20 Alias_ It can do queries with infite arbitrary foreign key traversal
09:20 moritz "combine the crazyness of perl with the power of databases"
09:20 Alias_ $query = Class->select;
09:20 moritz or was it the other way round? ;)
09:21 masak Alias_: cool
09:21 Alias_ $query->add_condition( 'self.parents.friends.children.school.teachers.pets.name', '=', 'Spot' );
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09:22 Alias_ It generates it's own schema
09:22 Alias_ So the code can create it's own database structures
09:22 Alias_ And it can handle superfluous tables and columns
09:22 wolverian "its" :)
09:22 moritz Alias_: how do you distinguish references from string literals?
09:22 Alias_ It knows what entity names are reserved words in various databases and renames around the problem
09:22 Alias_ moritz: hmm?
09:23 Alias_ It has a model of the entity-relationships
09:23 moritz Alias_: I guess 'self.parents. ...' is treated as a database column...
09:23 Alias_ not necesarily
09:23 Alias_ It's not 1 to 1
09:23 moritz Alias_: and 'Spot' is a string constant, right?
09:23 Alias_ .friends may involve traversing a many to many rable
09:23 Alias_ table
09:23 moritz ok, but it's not treated as a string constant
09:23 Alias_ or going backwards across a relationship, because it's the OTHER side of the relationship that has the column
09:24 moritz whereas 'Spot' is treated as a constant, right?
09:24 Alias_ the entity model knows the difference between data and relationships
09:24 Alias_ The "=" condition class knows the data types it's allowed to build a condition for
09:24 Alias_ So if you tried that on something that wasn't a string or a number, it would barf
09:24 moritz so if you have some external input, $dog_name, how can you be sure that it doesn't contain a string that describes a column and messes up your whole system?
09:25 Alias_ huh?
09:25 Alias_ Because of sql placeholders...
09:25 Alias_ The SQL generation handles placeholders
09:25 moritz so you add sql placeholders in add_condition and the like?
09:25 Alias_ As it builds the SQL it keeps track of them and aggregates them in the correct order as it merges the parts of the query
09:26 Alias_ "=" is implemented by code
09:26 moritz I think we are talking about different levels...
09:26 Alias_ There's also things like "approx"
09:26 moritz if I do a $object->add_condition($foo => $bar)...
09:26 Alias_ you don't
09:26 moritz why not?
09:27 Alias_ conditions are (subject, condition, value, value, ... )
09:27 Alias_ like in rdf
09:27 Alias_ Although obviously, nothing like rdf :)
09:27 Alias_ A condition expression is three parts
09:27 moritz ok, add_condition($foo, '=', $bar)
09:27 moritz how does it know how to interpret $foo and $bar?
09:28 Alias_ $foo is going to refer to some model element
09:28 Alias_ So it's split by . and mapped to the entity model
09:28 moritz ok
09:28 moritz and $bar?
09:28 Alias_ Depends on the condition
09:28 moritz let's assume '='
09:29 Alias_ sql_equal_to( $resolved_property, $bar )
09:29 Alias_ sql_equal_to knows it needs $bar to be of data type $resolved_property->data_type
09:29 moritz and how does that handle $bar?
09:30 Alias_ And it returns [ 'sql fragement including a ?', $bar ]
09:30 Alias_ fragment
09:30 moritz ok, so $bar is _alway_ treated as constant?
09:30 Alias_ ah, I get you
09:30 moritz s/alway/always/
09:30 Alias_ you want column A = column B
09:31 moritz I want to know how it dispatches between string B and column B
09:31 Alias_ You'd need a new condition
09:31 Alias_ add_condition( $foo, 'column-wise equal', $bar )
09:31 Alias_ I don't currently have an implementation of that
09:31 moritz ok
09:31 moritz then I'm happy for the moment ;)
09:31 Alias_ But it's probably possibly
09:32 Alias_ resolve the properties of $bar like for $foo, make sure that they are in the same table
09:32 moritz ... or that you do a join
09:32 Alias_ I don't do joins
09:32 moritz ok
09:32 Alias_ It's all done with subselects
09:33 Alias_ I mostly use postgres, which can do query rewriting across up to 7 subselects and turn it into The Right Thing
09:33 moritz is that efficient?
09:33 moritz ok
09:33 Alias_ There's three choices
09:33 * moritz ends up saying "ok" all the time
09:33 Alias_ 1. Implement it in wetware (my head)
09:33 moritz ?eval "ok" xx 5
09:33 evalbot_r16941 changed the nick to evalbot_r16959
09:33 evalbot_r16959 ("ok", "ok", "ok", "ok", "ok")
09:33 Alias_ 2. Implement query rewriting in Perl (also from my head)
09:33 Alias_ 3. Implement it inside the database (not in my head)
09:34 wolverian postgres++ # not crap
09:34 Alias_ Also, do you have any idea how complicates a join would be for self.parents.friends.children.school.teachers.pets.name
09:34 Alias_ which goes across at least one many to many
09:35 moritz no, I don't, and I don't want to have an idea ;)
09:35 moritz let other people handle the complexity ;)
09:35 Alias_ The nice thing about subselects is that while it might not always be stunningly fast, you can reach 100% coverage for all relationship types
09:35 Alias_ recursively
09:35 Alias_ I do a couple of small tricks to limit the problem
09:36 Alias_ if you had a self.parents.friends.children.school.teachers.pets.name and self.parents.friends.school.pupils.name conditions, it would merge the two at the "school" level
09:36 Alias_ So it merges conditions in a tree-like shape (in entity relationship terms)
09:37 Alias_ Which seems to work
09:37 Alias_ If you run explain on postgres for equivalent join and subselect queries, it actually implements it in terms about halfway between the two
09:37 Alias_ in processes
09:37 Alias_ table scans, index commands etc
09:38 Alias_ Anyways, my code does some funky stuff when you say $object->store
09:38 Alias_ Because the values might need to be stored in multiple SQL commands
09:38 Alias_ So it pulls transactions internally sometimes from the connection manager
09:39 Alias_ And hence, I need a fairly robust connection manager
09:39 moritz that doesn't sound very portable across databases
09:39 Alias_ codegen :)
09:39 Alias_ I have implementations for MySQL, Postgres and Oracle
09:39 Alias_ SQLite I can't build, because it doesn't have sequences
09:39 Alias_ But for the most parts, it does work properly between the three
09:39 moritz I witdraw my last comment ;)
09:40 Alias_ The speed penalty is probably worse on some database
09:40 Alias_ But really, I only added MySQL support because I felt I had to, not for the speed
09:40 moritz ;)
09:40 Alias_ And because I expected client-requests for it
09:41 Alias_ It's already slower, since I have to use innodb, and emulate sequences
09:41 wolverian sqlite doesn't have sequences?! weird, I thought it did
09:42 Alias_ nope :(
09:42 Alias_ He added auto_increment instead
09:42 wolverian oh
09:42 Alias_ You can't get a table id before insertion
09:42 Alias_ Which is absolutely critical
09:42 wolverian not first class, then
09:42 Alias_ ya
09:42 Alias_ And you can't emulate it
09:42 wolverian too bad.
09:42 wolverian thanks for telling me that :)
09:42 Alias_ Because sequence actions need to occur outside of transactions
09:42 Alias_ And SQLite has a global lock
09:43 Alias_ So if you are inside a transaction, and you try to pull a sequence value, it deadlocks
09:44 Alias_ If I REALLY need it, I'll write an emulation implementation that does the sequence table in a seperate database
09:44 Alias_ And according to audrey, there's a new thingy that lets you connect to two different sqlite files as one virtual database
09:44 Alias_ If the locks are file-granular, that might work
09:44 Alias_ I've never had the time for a proper proof of concept though
09:45 wolverian sequences for sqlite might be an interesting soc project
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09:57 pugs_svnbot r16960 | fglock++ | trunk:
09:57 pugs_svnbot : [kp6] perl5x - fixed code-blocks
09:57 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16960
09:57 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16960 - Pugs - Trac
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11:49 chris2 i need some quick help from a chinese. any here?
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12:13 bloonix hallo lichtking
12:13 bloonix s/g/d/
12:13 lichtkind hi bloonix
12:13 lichtkind moin
12:13 lichtkind ja noch bin ich prinz :)
12:13 bloonix ein lustiger schreibfehler :)
12:14 bloonix wie geht es dir so?
12:14 bloonix sorry! how are you?
12:16 lichtkind nene schon gut deustch is mir lieber tschechisch grad am liebsten
12:16 lichtkind ganz gut  danke bin nur etwas verwirrt
12:16 bloonix ich dachte an die anderen hier :)
12:16 bloonix was ist denn los?
12:19 lichtkind bloonix: your right i had 5 tabs in my irc client an thought im in perlde, what are you doing here? infected by my article ?
12:20 lichtkind bloonix:  btw its ready now if you like to see it
12:20 * moritz welcomes the german perl6 guys ;)
12:20 lichtkind hihi moin
12:21 bloonix I had a bit trouble on perlde so I though to avoid it. yes I read your perl 6 introduction on p-c.de and wanted to start a bit and where could I get a better start as here? :)
12:22 bloonix hi moritz
12:22 moritz bloonix: http://perl-6.de/tutorials/ if you want a german introduction
12:22 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - Tutorials
12:23 bloonix moritz: already done ;)
12:23 moritz bloonix: then what more introduction do you want?
12:23 bloonix on p-c.de are a lot of shortcuts on one site. I like that
12:24 moritz something like a cheat sheat?
12:24 bloonix I need a lot of code examples
12:24 bloonix to know how can I write nice letters in Perl 6 ;)
12:25 moritz bloonix: then look into the pugs repository...
12:25 moritz in examples/, or in src/perl6/Prelude*
12:25 moritz or for regexes in src/perl6-Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm
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12:27 lichtkind bloonix: do you mean the perl 6 tutorial on p-c.de wiki, there is also link to  http://perl-6.de/tutorials/ i
12:27 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - Tutorials
12:28 bloonix moritz: I should put a link on my home page to your introduction
12:28 moritz bloonix: do that please ;)
12:29 moritz bloonix: and if you have suggestions what else to add, please let me know as well
12:31 bloonix lichtkind: I read the article if you like
12:31 lichtkind moritz: =<> goes also in perl6 like =$*IN ?
12:32 lichtkind bloonix: cool but its now cold and gone, (third deadline :))
12:33 moritz lichtkind: afaict it's like the p5 <@ARGV>
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12:34 moritz lichtkind: but I'm not entirely sure about that, maybe it's =$*IN
12:34 lichtkind moritz: so maybe you could this clear up in http://perl-6.de/tutorials/anfaenger/variablen
12:34 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - Variablen
12:35 moritz lichtkind: yes, I should
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12:38 lichtkind moritz:  it should be more entertaining :) exactly that whyt you disliked on my artikles :)
12:38 lichtkind i mean the trivial style
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12:41 lichtkind moritz: i dont grok fully your structure but its growing so it will be good :)
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12:41 moritz lichtkind: I'm not so good in writing entertaining stuff ;)
12:42 moritz lichtkind: what don't you grok? the different tutorials?
12:42 moritz or the directory structure?
12:42 moritz or how the menus are built?
12:42 lichtkind moritz: the idea of the structure of the whole site
12:42 lichtkind also the design could support the content more
12:43 moritz I'm not aware of a very elaborate structure - just a normal tree structure like most other static sites
12:44 moritz lichtkind: could you tell me more about the design, and how I could improve it?
12:44 diakopter8 joined #perl6
12:45 lichtkind moritz: when i had more time, now im fiddeling on my own project and preparing my next foo article because im next month away in spain
12:45 lichtkind moritz: this time a non perl 6 topic
12:45 moritz lichtkind: allright, no hurry ;)
12:46 lichtkind moritz: but as i promised at the bottom on the article in next foo will also a small perl6 in depth article maybe about operator for scalars
12:46 Squern joined #perl6
12:47 lichtkind moritz: last night i hacked Alien::Wx into my project and a bunch of problem fell over me :)
12:47 moritz lichtkind: I think there are more exicting topics in p6, if that's what you want
12:47 phileas_fox left #perl6
12:48 lichtkind moritz: i want a step by step in depth tutorial and thats something simple to start with, but think there are exciting new things in it like chained comparsion type forcing and so on
12:48 moritz lichtkind: aye
12:49 xinming_ changed the nick to xinming
12:50 lichtkind good :) see you have to take a shower :)
12:50 lichtkind and my new linux  machine also seeks my attention
12:51 lichtkind but a good perl 6 tutorial is pretty high up on my todo
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13:01 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
13:04 pugs_svnbot r16961 | fglock++ | trunk:
13:04 pugs_svnbot : [kp6] fixed code-block compilation inside regex
13:04 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16961
13:04 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16961 - Pugs - Trac
13:06 pasteling "evalbot_r16960" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/26175
13:11 masak fglock: what's the progress status of kp6?
13:12 fglock masak: it's following the plan, roughly - http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/docs/kp6-roadmap.pod
13:12 lambdabot fglock: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:12 fglock currently improving the regex engine
13:12 masak fglock: ok
13:13 fglock next phase will implement more library functions
13:13 moritz fglock: the kp6 prelude, so to say?
13:15 fglock yes, and it is missing some low level classes too
13:17 fglock these are the things that it needs in order to run the Perl6-STD grammar
13:19 * agentzh wants to hack on kp6.
13:20 fglock agentzh: there are some simple things to do
13:20 avar agentzh: I started fiddling with writing grammars in PCR, noticed some differences from p6
13:21 agentzh oh?
13:21 avar like when I wrote C<< token digit { <[0..9]> } token digits { $<num> := [ <digit>+ ] } >> in p6 I could do:
13:21 agentzh there are always simple things :)
13:22 avar "123" ~~ /<digits>/; say $/<num>;
13:22 avar but to get that in pcr I have to do:
13:22 avar C<< token digit { <[0..9]> } token digits { $<num> := [ <digit>+ ] { return { num => $$<num>> } } } >>
13:22 agentzh avar: really?
13:22 lichtkind fglock++
13:23 avar I.e. it doesn't automatically make named and numbered captures part of the result object..
13:23 agentzh avar: i think it can be easily fixed by adding tokens to Pugs::Grammar::Base
13:23 avar agentzh: I just wrote that up by hand but yes, roughly
13:23 avar What? Adding a token digit {} ?
13:23 diakopter Alias_: you still around?
13:23 agentzh avar: the match object is okay in PCR, no?
13:23 fglock avar: that should work
13:23 agentzh avar: yup
13:24 avar I'm talking about the general idea of result objects not a digit token in particular
13:24 agentzh avar: named captures: $match->{'name'}
13:24 agentzh avar: numbered captures: $match->[num]
13:25 avar I had a testcase where the grammar I was porting from pugs didn't work at all unless I did what I said above, manually made a hash of things that were already being captured as $<> := []
13:25 avar I'll try to get it to you later-ish
13:25 agentzh avar: okay
13:26 fglock avar: [] captures a string, always (but let me check)
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13:28 fglock if you use / $<x> := [ some captures here ] / then you lose the data structure, and only get the matched string
13:28 fglock you need to use parentheses instead
13:30 avar I'll try that (later)
13:30 avar but whatever the issue was it was behaving differently in pugs and pcr
13:37 moritz wow, somebody found my homepage searching for "pugs" on result page number 47 (!) ;)
13:49 pugs_svnbot r16962 | fglock++ | trunk:
13:49 pugs_svnbot : [kp6] v6/docs/p6regex-on-p5regex.txt - progress report
13:49 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16962
13:49 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16962 - Pugs - Trac
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15:26 pmurias joined #perl6
15:26 pmurias hi
15:26 moritz hi pmurias ;)
15:26 fglock left #perl6
15:30 masak hello pmurias
15:37 diakopter Juerd: ping
15:37 Juerd diakopter: pong
15:38 awwaiid joined #perl6
15:39 diakopter Juerd: may I ask the status of getting more ram for feather? (merely curious) or moving it to xen on a big(ger) box?
15:39 DarkWolf84 joined #perl6
15:40 moritz Juerd: if money is still the problem, i might donate something (not enough for a bigger box, but probably for more RAM)
15:42 Juerd diakopter: Microgrant was approved; I'm waiting for payment info.
15:42 moritz cool
15:42 Juerd moritz: Money is no longer the problem, but any donation would still be welcome. Every dollar or euro can help to get bigger CPUs, or perhaps a spare hard drive :)
15:43 moritz Juerd: I'm willing to donate up to 150€ if you tell me what you do with it ;)
15:44 Juerd moritz: A bigger CPU in the new hardware.
15:45 moritz Juerd: write me an email with your IBAN and BIC code, then I can transfer the money to you
15:45 Juerd moritz: Which address?
15:46 Juerd IBAN: NL62ABNA0578740923
15:46 Juerd BIC: ABNANL2A
15:46 Juerd Note that I have to charge 19% VAT btw
15:46 Juerd If you have a european business, I can send you an invoice and it's 0% then
15:46 moritz Juerd: I do have
15:47 Juerd Please let me know the VAT number
15:47 moritz I don't have it yet, I only opened my buisiness the other day :(
15:47 Juerd Oh. I can send you the invoice later
15:48 moritz after the bank transfer?
15:49 Blwood joined #perl6
15:49 Juerd moritz: In any order you wish :)
15:49 Juerd I don't know if your country allows payment without prior invoice.
15:50 moritz I hope so ;)
15:50 Blwood joined #perl6
15:50 moritz Juerd: I've done my transfer now, you should receive the money during the next few days
15:53 Juerd moritz: On behalf of dozens of feather users, thank you :)
15:53 moritz this is so cool - in the EU transfers to other countries may not cost more than within the country, so it's free for me ;)
15:53 moritz Juerd: you're welcome
15:53 Juerd Yes, it's free -- iff you say "shared costs"
15:54 Juerd If you say "I pay everything" or "recipient pays everything", then voila: expenses!
15:54 Juerd Which is a problem because many people pick "I'm paying" because they don't want the recipient to pay...
15:54 moritz Juerd: if we host that p6explain/decrypt/perldoc project on feather I'll want an account - right now I'm fine without
15:55 moritz I didn't have a choice :(
15:55 Juerd moritz: If you want an account, please request it by email.
15:55 moritz regarding the paiment thing
15:55 Juerd That's good :)
15:55 moritz Juerd: Aye, I'm just moosing randomly...
15:55 Juerd Being forced into the free option is good.
15:56 moritz btw what location in the pugs repository would you suggest?
15:57 Juerd I haven't looked in pugs's repository for a few months, so I wouldn't know
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16:07 lichtkind Juerd:  hello
16:10 [particle] mortiz++ for volunteering currency
16:11 moritz [particle]: use your tab key if you want to karma me ;-)
16:11 [particle] d'oh!
16:11 moritz ;)
16:11 [particle] particle-- ;)
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16:23 masak moritz: re location in the pugs repo: I'd say ext/
16:23 masak though I'm by no means an expert either
16:23 agentzh ext/ ?
16:24 moritz masak: I thought about it, but ext/ is reservered for P6 modules...
16:24 agentzh is it a Perl 6 module?
16:24 agentzh moritz: right :)
16:24 moritz masak: and it'll mostly be a collection of data, with some p5 and p6 modules perhaps
16:24 masak hm
16:24 moritz I'll use misc/ for the moment
16:25 masak sounds good
16:25 moritz if it gets a lot of contributers, we can still move it to the pugs root or somewhere
16:28 Juerd lichtkind: Hi.
16:31 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
16:34 * Limbic_Region takes bets on how long he will last before being disconnected
16:34 lichtkind Juerd good to see you, i also wasnt much around
16:35 * Limbic_Region looks around for Juerd but doesn't see him
16:35 Limbic_Region ahh, there he is as an op
16:36 Blwood joined #perl6
16:37 moritz good disguise, such a doughnut ;)
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16:50 pugs_svnbot r16963 | moritz++ | trunk:
16:50 pugs_svnbot : Added P6Explain, the first attempt to build a character based syntax database.
16:50 pugs_svnbot : Comments and contributions are welcome!
16:50 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16963
16:50 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16963 - Pugs - Trac
16:51 pasteling "evalbot_r16962" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/26180
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17:29 pmurias mortiz: a possible name for the project might be p6hints
17:30 pmurias * moritz
17:30 weinig joined #perl6
17:31 [particle] perlhints or perlexplain or perlnurse *g* might be better
17:33 moritz pmurias: I like that name ;)
17:35 pmurias mortiz: good ;)
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18:06 pugs_svnbot r16964 | diakopter++ | trunk:
18:06 pugs_svnbot : new svnindex style... let's see what it looks like.
18:06 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16964
18:06 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16964 - Pugs - Trac
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19:05 pugs_svnbot r16965 | fglock++ | trunk:
19:05 pugs_svnbot : [kp6] perl5rx - the $/ under construction is available inside code blocks; but for now it is a copy
19:05 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16965
19:05 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16965 - Pugs - Trac
19:09 pasteling "evalbot_r16964" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/26182
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19:34 mncharity fglock: ping?
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19:49 fglock_ mncharity: pong
19:50 fglock_ mncharity: I'd like you to sanity check p6rx-in-p5rx if possible
19:51 fglock_ it's a new kp6 regex backend
19:52 REPLeffect joined #perl6
19:55 mncharity nifty
19:55 mncharity how can I help?
19:56 Blwood__ joined #perl6
19:56 fglock_ I'd like if you could take a look at the architecture and comment on it
19:56 WiNK79 joined #perl6
19:57 fglock_ I'm afraid it can have scalability problems, or hit perl 5 regex bugs
19:57 WiNK79 Hi guys..can any one help me with adding perl-devel package onto perl5.8.8
19:58 WiNK79 i cannot find where I can get the Windows version of the package..? i tried using the cpan shell..
19:58 WiNK79 but nothing was found..
19:58 offby1 left #perl6
19:59 mncharity fglock_: looking...
19:59 fglock_ WiNK79: I don't think there is a perl-devel for Windows - but you should ask at #perl
19:59 WiNK79 oh...ok....thanks...will do..
19:59 fglock_ mncharity: there is a sample code here (with instructions for compiling/running) http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/examples/token-test.pl
19:59 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2hf4xk
20:00 mncharity ah :)  I was about to ask "uhm, where?"
20:00 fglock_ hmm - please comment out the { return 123 } block - it makes the output very verbose by dumping the whole kp6 object hierarchy :P
20:01 fglock_ the "docs" are here http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/docs/p6regex-on-p5regex.txt
20:02 WiNK79 hi fglock: no response...:P
20:02 WiNK79 fglock: from #perl
20:02 justatheory joined #perl6
20:02 fglock_ the original prototype is here (easier to understand) http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/temp/backtracking-recursive-subrule.pl
20:02 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/29lv29
20:03 fglock_ WiNK79: how about #perl at irc.perl.org
20:03 WiNK79 fglock: ok..will try that one..thanks
20:04 fglock_ WiNK79: or http://perlmonks.org
20:04 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
20:05 fglock_ mncharity: btw, the root directory for running kp6 is v6/v6-KindaPerl6/
20:07 fglock_ mncharity: the idea is that the match creates a linked-list of operations, which grows and shrink as the perl5 regex matches/backtracks; the list is converted to a Match object on demand
20:07 weinig joined #perl6
20:08 fglock_ the linear structure is much easier to manage than the match tree
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20:11 mncharity ./lib5/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/Match.pm vs lib5regex/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/Match.pm ?
20:11 mncharity ah, neat idea
20:11 fglock_ lib5regex is the p6rx-on-p5rx Match class; lib5 is for the mp5 regex engine
20:11 fglock_ mp6
20:13 fglock_ I mean: lib5regex/ is the p6rx-on-p5rx runtime; lib5/ is the mp6 runtime
20:13 mncharity so it's just that one file in lib5regex/ I should be looking at?
20:14 mncharity oh, no docs, and output of the test script
20:14 fglock_ yes, that's the runtime; you can see the compiled script by piping into perltidy
20:16 fglock_  perl kp6-perl5.pl --perl5rx < examples/token-test.pl | perltidy
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20:17 mncharity re "after the match finishes, the operations are interpreted, and the result is a Match object", you will also have to do it during the matching, if the regex itself uses the match.
20:17 fglock_ the emitter is: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/lib/KindaPerl6/Visitor/EmitPerl5Regex.pm
20:17 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2h6f5d
20:17 fglock_ yes, it does that
20:17 fglock_ it is currently a copy, but I can make it rw by using references
20:18 fglock_ or by making a diff
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20:26 pugs_svnbot r16966 | diakopter++ | trunk:
20:26 pugs_svnbot : oops, didn't mean to commit that :/
20:26 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/16966
20:26 lambdabot Title: Changeset 16966 - Pugs - Trac
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20:41 * mncharity looks around for fglock_
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21:54 Aankhen`` Idiot moment.  Could two conforming Perl 6 implementations generate different ASTs for the same snippet of code, all other things being equal?
21:57 lumi Aankhen``: I don't think we have an AST spec
21:57 lumi Also, I think you can optimize on the AST level
21:58 spinclad Aankhen``: sure
21:58 Aankhen`` Thanks.
21:58 Aankhen`` I felt like the answer was obvious, but for some reason I had a mental block.
21:58 Aankhen`` (Hence the "idiot moment".  I tend to have a lot of those. :-P)
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22:40 nothingmuch w 12
22:50 dduncan I would expect there to be an AST spec, at least insomuch as that the syntax for writing Perl 6 macros can take or return ASTs
22:51 avar the std parser is pretty much an AST spec
22:51 dduncan mind you, that could just be a role/interface to the ASTs, and not be how they are implemented internally
22:53 [particle1 perhaps once somebody is near the point of implementing perl6 macros, a standard will develop.
22:53 [particle1 changed the nick to [particle]
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23:57 mncharity @tell fglock btw, I've comments, whenever is convenient.
23:57 lambdabot Consider it noted.

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