Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:11 Limbic_Region diakopter - no, right after your comment about using the compiled version - I got disconnected and my only attempt at reconnecting bombed
00:13 diakopter Limbic_Region: <sigh>
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00:15 pugs_svnbot r17078 | fglock++ | [kp6] Prelude - implemented Match.str()
00:15 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17078
00:15 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17078 - Pugs - Trac
00:39 avar fglock: is an unless () {} implementation outside the scope of kp6?
00:39 avar fglock: I.e. are you strictly keeping it to the subset that's needed to desugar real p6?
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00:53 nipotaway changed the nick to nipotan
00:57 pugs_svnbot r17079 | avar++ |  r52303@t:  avar | 2007-07-17 00:54:30 +0000
00:57 pugs_svnbot r17079 | avar++ |  Use $^X instead of perl
00:57 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17079
00:57 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17079 - Pugs - Trac
00:59 diakopter weird: Use $<sup>X instead of perl <br />
00:59 diakopter </sup>
01:00 diakopter (says Trac)
01:14 fglock avar: it's outside the scope of mp6; for kp6 it's ok
01:19 fglock kp6 "phase 5 - improved grammar"
01:21 * avar wonders why the unless patch isn't working: http://sial.org/pbot/26348
01:22 lambdabot Title: Paste #26348 from Someone at 208.78.101.240
01:22 avar ast dump: http://sial.org/pbot/26349
01:22 lambdabot Title: Paste #26349 from Someone at 208.78.101.240
01:25 fglock avar: looking
01:27 fglock hmm - you could reuse ::If, with reversed actions
01:30 avar It could be more succinct yes. But I'm wondering why my ast/code gen doesn't show something like "If"
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01:33 fglock avar: did you compile Control.pm ?
01:34 fglock the lib5 version is not in the patch
01:35 fglock Control.pm seems to be missing in the Makefile
01:37 * avar tries
01:39 pugs_svnbot r17080 | fglock++ | [kp6] added Control.pm, Mapping.pm to Makefile
01:39 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17080
01:39 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17080 - Pugs - Trac
01:40 avar not Regex.pm?
01:40 fglock it was there already
01:46 fglock avar: did it work?
01:49 avar $ echo 'class Main { my $x = "0"; if ($x eq $x) { say "hello world" } else { say "moo" }; }' | perl5.9.5 kp6-perl5.pl | perl5.9.5 -Ilib5
01:49 avar in Class: Bit
01:49 avar no method: p5landish
01:49 avar mm, shouldn't that work..
01:50 fglock p5landish was creates by pmurias, I think - looking
01:50 avar $ cat t/01-sanity/04-if.t | perl5.9.5 kp6-perl5.pl |perl5.9.5 -Ilib5
01:50 avar 1..2
01:50 avar in Class: Bit
01:50 avar no method: p5landish
01:53 fglock it looks like only Int and Str have p5landish - I'll add to Bit
01:55 fglock done
01:56 fglock though it probably belongs to ::Value instead
01:56 pugs_svnbot r17081 | fglock++ | [kp6] added 'p5landish' method to Bit
01:56 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17081
01:56 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17081 - Pugs - Trac
01:56 fglock s/creates/created/
01:59 fglock avar: fixed
01:59 pugs_svnbot r17082 | fglock++ | [kp6] MOP - 'p5landish' is inherited from ::Value
01:59 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17082
01:59 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17082 - Pugs - Trac
02:02 avar which parts should I be reusing?
02:03 avar the emitter class?
02:04 fglock in Control.pm you could generate an ::If with reversed body/otherwise - everything else would be reused
02:05 fglock like:  ::If( cond => $$<exp>, body => $$<block2>, otherwise => $$<block1>, )
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02:07 avar ah
02:11 pugs_svnbot r17083 | fglock++ | [kp6] EmitPerl5 - If.block can be undef
02:11 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17083
02:11 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17083 - Pugs - Trac
02:23 pugs_svnbot r17084 | avar++ |  r61186@t:  avar | 2007-07-17 01:58:12 +0000
02:23 pugs_svnbot r17084 | avar++ |  Added Grammar/*.pm files
02:23 pugs_svnbot r17085 | avar++ |  r61190@t:  avar | 2007-07-17 02:22:25 +0000
02:23 pugs_svnbot r17085 | avar++ |  implemented unless
02:23 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17085
02:23 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17085 - Pugs - Trac
02:25 fglock avar++
02:25 avar maybe the if/unless tokens can be merged into ifunless?
02:26 avar $<action> := [ if | unless ] and then if ($<action> eq "if") { return { ... } }
02:26 avar would that work?
02:28 fglock yes - please note that this code will be replaced by a multi-regex (as in Perl6-STD), later
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02:29 avar how is parsing p6-std going?
02:36 fglock the implementation of Signature/Capture will be used to implement multi-dispatch, which is then needed by multi-regexes
02:36 fglock the regex engine will likely be p6rx-in-p5rx
02:44 weinig_ changed the nick to weinig
02:45 fglock if all goes well, kp6-v5 would be running something very close to P5-STD
02:45 fglock P6-STD
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02:57 fglock sleep &
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06:48 meppl good morning
06:48 moritz good morning meppl ;)
06:50 beppu .
06:51 meppl good morning moritz and beppu
06:52 beppu well, it's almost midnight in Los Angeles.
06:57 iblechbot joined #perl6
06:57 moritz it's almost 9am in middle europe ;)
07:01 pugs_svnbot r17086 | moritz++ | [irclog] more tests
07:01 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17086
07:01 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17086 - Pugs - Trac
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07:11 moritz should r0123 linkify to the svn changeset?
07:11 moritz eg with leading 0s
07:12 beppu who's generating them w/ leading 0s ?
07:12 moritz I don't know, all automatically generated ones are without leading 0s
07:13 moritz which leads me to the conclusion that linkifiying r0\d+ might be a false positive
07:13 beppu http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?YagNi
07:13 lambdabot Title: Yag Ni
07:13 masak moritz: but there is no such occurrence in the wild?
07:13 masak beppu: that's what I thought too
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07:16 moritz masak: I don't know, never saw one
07:16 masak moritz: then you probably aren't gonna need it
07:17 masak it actually seems harder for an automatic tool to generate a zero-padded revision number than one that is not zero-padded
07:17 moritz masak, beppu: Aye, I'll change my regex ;)
07:18 masak ;)
07:18 beppu if it's easy to handle 0-padding, then do it...  otherwise, don't bother.  
07:20 moritz it both equally easy to handle, I'm just worried about false positives
07:20 moritz probably there's no reason to bother...
07:20 moritz but I'm writing test cases atm and I'm thinking about edge cases
07:21 * masak can't recall anyone ever writing anything starting with r0 in #perl6
07:25 moritz masak: you changed that now ;)
07:25 pugs_svnbot r17087 | moritz++ | [irclog] r0\d+ isn't turned into links any more
07:25 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17087
07:25 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17087 - Pugs - Trac
07:25 masak moritz: dang :)
07:27 moritz ;)
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08:27 Aankhen`` masak: For future reference, my nick has two backticks. ;-) I usually read the logs, so I got the message you sent anyway, but as you can see I'm rather late.
08:30 masak Aankhen``: oh. yes, I remember having to enter it manually since you were out-of-bounds from the Tab Completer, and checking your nick to make sure I spelled it right. guess I wasn't careful enough with the backticks, though
08:31 Aankhen`` Yeah, I'd left the building.
08:31 masak yes
08:31 moritz ;)
08:31 masak what was it I @told you again? was it important? :)
08:31 moritz well, `` expands to the empty string on the shell ;)
08:31 Aankhen`` And I didn't check the logs for a while because I was completing my reading of the Dark Tower series.
08:31 Aankhen`` masak: Trick question! :-P It was the abbr.dat thing.
08:32 masak right
08:33 masak @tell masak Can I leave messages to myself?
08:33 lambdabot You can tell yourself!
08:33 masak :)
08:34 masak @tell lambdabot Can I leave messages to lambdabot?
08:34 lambdabot Nice try ;)
08:34 moritz Aankhen``: btw you introduced a subtle bug with the abbr.dat thing - when the file is not found (or empty), $re_abbr remains the empty string, which always matches, and makes output_process loop
08:34 masak lambdabot: you have a good sense of humor
08:34 Aankhen`` moritz: Yup.  I'm pretty sure I mentioned that when I added the abbrevations thing.
08:34 moritz Aankhen``: I (nearly) fixed that by defaulting to (?!), which never matches - fglock++
08:35 Aankhen`` moritz: Oh, nice one.
08:35 Aankhen`` So that's why you were asking about a never matching regex.
08:35 moritz Aankhen``: I dont' remember
08:35 moritz anyway, I think it is a rather cool solution, that's why I'm telling you the whole story ;)
08:36 Aankhen`` fglock++ # indeed
08:36 Aankhen`` moritz++ # indeed as well ^_^
08:37 moritz I just realized I fixed it only for the case where abbr.dat is not found, not for empty abbr.dat
08:39 Aankhen`` Whoops.
08:39 pugs_svnbot r17088 | moritz++ | [irclog] fixed handling of empty abbr.dat / links.dat
08:39 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17088
08:39 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17088 - Pugs - Trac
08:41 elmex joined #perl6
08:49 thoughtpolice how goes it
08:50 moritz wie geht es? *g*
08:51 devogon joined #perl6
08:51 moritz I'm doing some irc log hacking (mainly QA atm), and closely watching kp6
08:52 moritz and perhaps I'll write a small kp6 homepage
08:52 thoughtpolice fun stuff.
08:52 moritz this week I still have time for hacking, then I'll work the next 6 weeks to get some money
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09:46 moritz_ what is + for a twigil?
09:46 moritz_ multi method sym (Str $pat = $+sym) {
09:49 thoughtpolice iirc it was the previous way of marking named parameters
09:49 thoughtpolice i think, at least
09:49 moritz_ hm, that's from STD.pm
09:49 thoughtpolice oh. :x
09:50 masak thoughtpolice: I think that would have been +$sym
09:51 thoughtpolice masak: it might have been.
09:51 masak $+sym is different, something having to do with env variables or something
09:51 |Jedai| changed the nick to jedai
09:51 masak I don't remember exactly, check the synopses :)
09:51 thoughtpolice i've only ran across much older code that such a style
09:51 thoughtpolice so yeah, i figured i was wrong in that instance
09:51 masak & # lunch
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09:55 TimToady moritz_: yes, it's a context variable, which is visible throughout a dynamic scope
09:55 moritz_ TimToady: thanks
10:01 moritz_ '<->' is the same as '-> is rw', right?
10:02 TimToady yes, if you distribute rw across all args
10:02 moritz_ I'm starting to annote STD.pm with perlhints POD blocks, so you can expect more weird questions ;)
10:03 TimToady ok, I'll be distracted off and on today because I'm giving a talk, but I'll backlog
10:03 moritz_ sure, thanks
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10:05 Juerd moritz_: I like to think of it the other way around: -> is like <->, but readonly :)
10:06 moritz_ Juerd: ;)
10:06 Juerd Because <-> is the default thing if you use no arrow
10:06 moritz_ ?eval -> { 2 }
10:06 Juerd for @foo { $_ is rw here!! }
10:06 evalbot_r17041 ->{Syn "block" {2}}
10:06 Juerd ?eval <-> { 5 }
10:06 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "{"␤expecting operator
10:07 Juerd I think current pugs predates <-> approval :)
10:11 moritz_ ?eval my &func = -> { 42 }; &func()
10:11 evalbot_r17041 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "MkCode {isMulti = True, subName = \"&\", subType = SubPrim, subEnv = Nothing, subAssoc = ANil, subParams = [], subBindings = [], subSlurpLimit = [], subReturns = (mkType \"Any\"), subLValue = False, subBody = Prim ([Pugs.AST.Internals.Val] -> Pugs.AST.Eval.Eval Pugs.AST.Internals.Val), subCont = Nothing, subTraitBlocks = MkTraitBlocks {subPreBlocks = [], subPostBlocks = [], subFirstBlocks = [], subLastBlock
10:11 moritz_ ?eval my $func = -> { 42 }; $func()
10:11 evalbot_r17041 42
10:11 moritz_ is &func right but NYI?
10:12 TimToady my &func := -> { 42 }; &func()
10:12 TimToady ?eval my &func := -> { 42 }; &func()
10:12 evalbot_r17041 42
10:12 TimToady func is not rw, so can't assign to it
10:16 Juerd &func.push:&postprocess ;)
10:21 TimToady that would require a space after the :
10:22 TimToady because listops always require the space
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10:24 Juerd Makes sense
10:24 Juerd Is .foo:{ } an exception then?
10:25 Juerd I'm sure I've seen that somewhere
10:25 TimToady it is parsed as .foo :{ }
10:25 TimToady not as .foo: { }
10:26 TimToady so it's an adverbial block, not the first positional arg
10:28 Juerd Sneaky :)
10:32 moritz_ I want to start a new perlhints discussion - should I do that on perl6-users oder p6c?
10:32 pugs_svnbot r17089 | moritz++ | [STD] added the first perlhints POD blocks
10:32 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17089
10:32 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17089 - Pugs - Trac
10:33 TimToady p6c, ich glaube...
10:33 TimToady but you might get more response on p6u
10:44 pjcj_ changed the nick to pjcj
10:54 Gothmog_ moritz_: :423s/liste/list/ :)
10:55 moritz_ Gothmog_++
10:56 moritz_ thanks
10:56 moritz_ YaY, a contributer ;)
10:56 Gothmog_ ;)
11:08 pugs_svnbot r17090 | moritz++ | [STD.pm] perlhints typo fix spotted by Gothmog_++
11:08 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17090
11:08 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17090 - Pugs - Trac
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13:42 devbot6 planet6: Stevan Little: Class::MOP/Moose now works in 5.9.5 <http://use.perl.org/~Stevan/journal/33829?from=rss>
13:45 moritz_ Moose!
13:45 TimToady gonna start my talk in about 15 minutes
13:45 [particle] where it's at?
13:45 moritz_ TimToady: good luck
13:45 masak TimToady: good luck. what's it about?
13:45 TimToady Iceland
13:45 stevan_ masak: I suspect perl, but I may be wrong
13:45 moritz_ is there a video streaming URL?
13:46 TimToady thought I'd talk about Perl for a change
13:46 franck___ joined #perl6
13:46 stevan_ Python!!
13:46 masak :)
13:46 TimToady by the way, you guys are onscreen
13:46 masak "Perl for a change" -- nice subject
13:46 [particle] ah, the land of fire and ice and perl
13:46 TimToady say hi to WG2.8
13:46 moritz_ on my screen anyway ;)
13:46 masak hello, WG2.8
13:46 moritz_ ?eval say 'hi to WG2.8'
13:46 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[hi to WG2.8␤] Bool::True
13:46 [particle] hello from seattle
13:47 drupek12 joined #perl6
13:48 [particle] <shameless_plug> i'll be releasing parrot 0.4.14 today </shameless_plug>
13:48 masak [particle]: not entirely off topic, if you ask me
13:49 masak I've heard parrot and perl6 are connected somehow
13:49 moritz_ [particle]: cool - any idea when 0.5 will be out?
13:49 szbalint hello WG2.8 :)
13:49 avar TimToady: Where in .is are you? I'm there and didn't know about this;/
13:49 masak moritz_: is there something special about 0.5 that makes you wait for it?
13:49 [particle] moritz_: when the oo implementation is considered done, which is when all the tests pass (we're above 85% now)
13:49 masak avar: you can make it!
13:49 TimToady I'm right on the mid-Atlantic ridge
13:50 moritz_ masak: the notion that it might be half-way finished then ;)
13:50 TimToady lots of hydrogen sulfide around here
13:50 masak moritz_: :)
13:50 avar What event?
13:50 TimToady WG 2.8
13:50 avar oh so you said, it just sounded like some wifi device :)
13:51 moritz_ ;)
13:52 [particle] moritz_: we have monthly releases, but our minor version numbers are tied to features.
13:52 avar Let me know if you feel like getting coffee in Reykjavík with a random perl hacker:)
13:52 TimToady we're about 40k east of Reykjavic
13:52 TimToady at a geothermal plant
13:52 avar Near a large lake?
13:53 TimToady just north of us
13:53 * [particle] wonders if avar can be there in nine minutes....
13:53 avar Ah, that's Nesjavellir, I cycle there frequently:)
13:53 TimToady lots of interesting geology here
13:53 TimToady yes, that's the place
13:53 avar http://www.nat.is/travelguideeng/nesjavelli​r_geothermal_heating_project_reception.htm
13:54 TimToady alas, it's invite-only
13:55 TimToady and the room's already packed
13:55 avar And I was just getting my point-to-point transporter heated up, alas
13:55 TimToady 'sides, you already know this
13:55 avar :)
13:55 szbalint please stop reading my mind avar
13:55 szbalint :)
13:56 * diakopter barely avoids lolspeak about languages and paradigms
13:56 TimToady you guys wanna give the talk instead of me?
13:56 [particle] an interesting propositoin :)
13:56 moritz_ TimToady: that would render your long preparations useless
13:56 moritz_ TimToady: so please go ahead ;)
13:57 TimToady darn
13:57 [particle] we'll happily provide running commentary :)
13:57 [particle] doesn't matter that we can't see or hear it
13:57 TimToady unfortunately I'll have to take you offscreen in 3 minutes
13:58 diakopter just post a one word topic or two every few minutes?
13:58 diakopter heh
13:58 [particle] WIRES.
13:58 masak BITS
13:58 szbalint PERL
13:58 * szbalint ducks
13:58 masak :)
13:58 moritz_ PYTHON
13:58 * moritz_ ducks even further
13:58 diakopter Perl for Proles
13:59 [particle] What's New in Vaporware Design :)
13:59 * Alias_ ponders Vapour Wear
14:00 thoughtpolice INTERCAL
14:00 thoughtpolice I win.
14:00 moritz_ I lost, damned!
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14:01 TimToady these folks are gonna be so impressed with all the lambdacamels
14:01 TimToady okay, signing off now
14:01 [particle] goodbye from seattle
14:01 masak good luck again
14:02 mncharity joined #perl6
14:02 diakopter avar: perl.is/unreachable?
14:02 thoughtpolice later
14:02 thoughtpolice have fun
14:03 avar diakopter: hrm?
14:03 diakopter perl.is
14:04 avar Yeah, it sort of is:)
14:04 avar diakopter: want to use it for domain hacking?:)
14:05 diakopter sure... why not
14:05 avar I'll probably let the registration expire next year
14:05 diakopter perl.is/gooder-than-you
14:05 * masak hasn't seen that many .is puns, now that you mention it
14:05 * avar isn't using it for anything
14:06 avar masak: that's because they're so expensive. And you have to be in .is to register one
14:06 masak avar: oh
14:06 moritz_ i.dont.know.what.perl.is
14:06 masak moritz_: good for a FAQ or tutorial :)
14:06 avar bitches.dont.know.what.perl.is
14:06 masak avar: good for female dogs
14:06 [particle] my.perl.is.better.than.your.perl.is
14:07 thoughtpolice my.perl.is/great
14:08 [particle] perl.is/ # perl is whack
14:08 thoughtpolice actually that's a little too egotistical, how about oh.my.perl.is/great
14:08 avar you can see why I don't use it for anything
14:08 masak forth.language.stackbased.a.is
14:08 avar use.perl6.perl.is/obsolete
14:09 szbalint I tried to aquire perl.hu but the owner although looks willing to sell, they didn't reply to my inquiry :\
14:10 [particle] is there a .fu ?
14:10 thoughtpolice perl.is.not.fu/gly
14:10 avar [particle]: no
14:10 [particle] rats. perl.fu looks great
14:11 thoughtpolice increase.your.perl.fu
14:11 * moritz_ wants perl.xxx
14:11 masak [particle]: use greasemonkey to make your own addresses :)
14:12 [particle] object-on-object action!
14:12 masak cheaper, too
14:12 thoughtpolice iirc .xxx domains are one of the most expensive you can get though
14:12 thoughtpolice :( what a bummer
14:12 _meppl joined #perl6
14:13 thoughtpolice someone should just get the exact opposite of my domain, you could create all sorts of fun stuff from that
14:13 thoughtpolice perl.youaresuperior.<blank>
14:14 szbalint now that you mention it, I should change my ident to perlh
14:15 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
14:15 moritz_ thoughtpolice: I don't think .xxx domains are available at all
14:16 masak moritz_: that would explain why they are so expensive
14:16 moritz_ masak: right. You have to bribe a lot of people first ;)
14:17 * masak doesn't want to know the details
14:18 thoughtpolice moritz_: ah no it isn't a TLD
14:18 thoughtpolice it was going to become one but I guess they axed it
14:18 masak thrice
14:19 * masak ducks
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14:26 Patterner there will be no .xxx as long as the USA is in charge.
14:27 cjeris USA--
14:27 masak Patterner: not sure there's a need for one given the current contents of the 'net
14:28 Patterner and that too
14:30 * diakopter wonders about folks who can't find what they're looking for without a special .tld
14:30 diakopter I know I know, it's purely to get more revenue by increasing the namespace size.
14:31 diakopter I mean, I know I know, it's so parents can block all .xxx sites, b/c we all know the non .xxx xxx will all be willing to switch.
14:32 moritz_ aye ;)
14:32 masak diakopter: yes, porn site owners are known for their trustworthiness
14:37 Patterner you can buy a lot of trust for $39.99 per month.
14:37 masak Patterner: yes, but there will probably never come a day when you can only buy it from .xxx sites
14:37 szbalint that'd be censorship
14:37 szbalint :)
14:37 moritz__ joined #perl6
14:37 Patterner Yeah right.
14:40 amnesiac joined #perl6
14:40 moritz_ and being freedom loving, .xxx wembasters will never accept censorship
14:41 moritz_ did you notice how our topic drifted once we weren't onscreen anymore in .is?
14:42 masak that's us. as soon as we go offscreen in .is, we talk about porn
14:43 moritz_ to return to our original topic: any comments on my p6c mail?
14:45 diakopter oscon?
14:45 diakopter OSCON?
14:45 masak moritz_: well, at least in changeset 17089, the # seems to be missing in a few #}'s
14:45 * diakopter kicks purl in the shins
14:45 [particle] ENOPURL
14:46 [particle] what's the lambdaish way to do ++$x multiple times?
14:46 masak moritz_: maybe I misunderstood something. or maybe you noticed already
14:46 masak [particle]: $x += $n;
14:46 [particle] masak: even on strings?
14:47 masak [particle]: don't see why not
14:47 moritz_ masak: thanks, but that was not was I was asking for ;)
14:47 [particle] ?eval my $x= 'perl'; say $x += 5;
14:47 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[5␤] Bool::True
14:47 [particle] nope.
14:47 masak moritz_: I know. I don't really have comments on your three questions, but I found that one thing odd
14:48 [particle] ?eval my $x= 'perl'; say ++$x
14:48 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[perm␤] Bool::True
14:48 moritz_ masak: ok, thanks
14:48 masak [particle]: ah, I see what you mean now
14:48 moritz_ [particle]: '+' always enforces numerical context
14:48 [particle] but prefix:++ doesn't
14:48 masak ++$x for ^$n;
14:49 [particle] hrmm. no way to >> or [] that?
14:49 masak [particle]: can't think of any
14:50 thoughtpolice left #perl6
14:50 thoughtpolice joined #perl6
14:52 [particle] ?eval my $x='perl'; ++$x for ^6762; say $x
14:52 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[porn␤] Bool::True
14:52 [particle] :)
14:53 moritz_ lol
14:53 masak [particle]: priceless
14:54 buetow joined #perl6
14:54 masak ?eval my $x='perl'; ++$x for ^6762;
14:54 pugs_svnbot r17091 | moritz++ | [STD.pm] perlhints for block and regex_block, braino fix spotted by masak++
14:54 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17091
14:54 evalbot_r17041 undef
14:57 daxim_ joined #perl6
14:58 masak ?eval my $x='perl'; ++$x for ^45565; $x
14:58 dwave joined #perl6
14:58 evalbot_r17041 \"ruby"
14:58 masak hm
14:59 moritz_ masak--
14:59 moritz_ ;)
14:59 masak :) no offence intended
14:59 Yaakov joined #perl6
15:00 moritz_ ?eval my $x='ruby'; $x-- for ^45565; $x
15:00 evalbot_r17041 \-45565.0
15:00 masak clearly not irreversible
15:00 masak wonder why
15:01 moritz_ old p5 legacy? NYI?
15:01 masak ?eval my $x='ruby'; --$x for ^45565; $x
15:01 masak moritz_: bet it's correctly implemented but the ++ and -- are assymetric
15:02 evalbot_r17041 \-45565.0
15:02 masak probably for some good reason
15:02 asksh joined #perl6
15:05 moritz_ ?eval my @l=<a b c d>; @l.pick(*)
15:05 evalbot_r17041 ("c", "d", "a", "b")
15:06 masak ?eval my $a = 'a'; --$a
15:06 evalbot_r17041 -1.0
15:07 masak er...
15:07 [particle] that's a pugsbug. it should be ''. i think string decrement is unimpl
15:07 masak [particle]: ah, thx
15:09 pugs_svnbot r17092 | moritz++ | [STD.pm] perlhints for label and whatever
15:09 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17092
15:12 masak moritz_: question 2
15:12 masak due to the nature of perl6, it seems that almost no matter what delimiters you choose, you'll clash with some perl6 syntax
15:13 masak but using just barewords makes it difficult to determine what's parametrized and what isn't
15:13 moritz_ d'oh, you're probably right
15:13 masak have you considered just using $good_variable_names ?
15:13 masak would that suffice?
15:14 moritz_ $ suggests scalar context
15:14 masak question 3: no
15:14 masak moritz_: right. which pretty much excludes @, % and & too
15:14 moritz_ masak: sadly, yes
15:16 masak maybe just use {{ ... }} and [[ ... ]], for mandatory and optional parts respectively
15:17 moritz_ .oO( as long as I don't write about macros...)Oo,
15:17 moritz_ I'll think about it
15:17 masak sounds good -- seems there's no excellent solution
15:20 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
15:21 diakopter is the Perldoc grammar in the same file as Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm?
15:21 diakopter er, [going to be]
15:21 pugs_svnbot r17093 | moritz++ | [STD] perlhints for pair
15:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17093
15:22 moritz_ diakopter: there is a # XXX we need to parse perldoc ehere  comment in STD.pm
15:22 moritz_ s/eh/h/
15:24 diakopter ah. ok.
15:24 * diakopter wonders when that open thread will be resolved/continued on p6l
15:25 * [particle] wonders if the hints could be stored in a separate file and parsed by using {*} action stubs
15:26 Alias_ [particle] You know, for some reason I always say your name in my head to the tune of Queen's "Bicycle"
15:26 masak [particle]: aren't the {*} action stubs a temp fix?
15:27 [particle] i want to split my particle, i want to split my part...
15:27 Alias_ right
15:27 Alias_ something like that
15:27 [particle] masak: they're standard perl 6. pge uses them
15:27 masak [particle]: oh.
15:28 masak what do they mean, semantically?
15:28 [particle] pge keeps the action methods in a grammar subclass
15:28 [particle] it means, whatever closure
15:28 [particle] there's semantic comments embedded in them, where appropriate to do different actions within a rule
15:29 [particle] lemme get an example...
15:29 moritz_ [particle]: is it a problem that not all annotated tokens have a {*}?
15:30 [particle] if there's no action to do, no {*} needed
15:30 [particle] rule foo { <bar> <baz> } # perhaps
15:30 moritz_ I'll wait for the example ;)
15:33 [particle] see http://svn.perl.org/parrot/tru​nk/languages/abc/src/abc-2.pg
15:33 [particle] that's a smaller grammar for an example of the action stubs you're familiar with
15:34 [particle] and http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trun​k/languages/abc/src/abc-2a.txt is an example of a subclass providing the methods to build the parse tree and ast
15:35 [particle] shortly, pmichaud should be committing the first working prototype of 'nqp', a kp6-like language for performing these transformations.
15:35 [particle] nqp := not quite perl
15:35 masak [particle]: so there's an implicit parallel between the {*} things and the methods?
15:35 [particle] yes. pge understands these.
15:35 masak neat
15:36 moritz_ cool
15:36 [particle] see 'term' for example
15:36 [particle] see the semantic comments in action?
15:36 moritz_ I was just looking at that
15:37 [particle] perhaps the same could be done for the perlhints
15:37 [particle] it would facilitate localization
15:37 [particle] well, internationalization, anyway
15:39 moritz_ [particle]: look at token lambda in STD.pm - who would that work with perlhints?
15:40 [particle] btw the parrot commit that allows pge to support this is here: http://perlcabal.org/svn/p​arrot/revision/?rev=19282
15:40 [particle] moritz_: looking...
15:41 [particle] i think that would need a {*}. probably everything should have them, come to think of it.
15:42 [particle] however, i'd have to review that parrot commit to see if it's necessary
15:44 [particle] the tool we'd need is one that could use the keyed action stubs to associate the pod with the rules
15:45 [particle] as i see it, every rule should  have an action stub in order for that to work universally.
15:45 moritz_ you mean for the current approach?
15:45 [particle] however i suppose there could be deeper magic, but i don't see a need for it. we're only adding four characters '{*}'
15:45 [particle] *' {*}'
15:45 moritz_ erm, forget what I just said
15:47 moritz_ so when I create a subclass, all I have to do is to run STD.pm over a piece of code with my subclass instead of the perl6 compiler
15:47 [particle] i mean, if every rule has an action stub, you can (perhaps) use the same mechanism to merge actions, or docs.
15:48 [particle] well, note that there's a grammar for abc, and a class where the actions live
15:48 pmichaud TimToady can correct me, but I think the original intent was that {*} would be stubs, yes.
15:49 pmichaud however, I decided to make them active tokens in PGE -- because it allows switching the actions at runtime
15:49 pmichaud (and we can still do the preprocessing step on the grammar if we decide to go that route)
15:49 [particle] perhaps there could be a file starting something like =pod Perl-6.0.0-STD-hints
15:51 [particle] ...and it could contain '=begin perlhints ; token: lambda' (or whatever the pod syntax should be)
15:52 pmichaud afk # errands
15:52 [particle] and those docs could be merged by some tool to display them together, or as a popup in our shiny refactoring browser
15:52 [particle] thanks, pm
15:53 moritz_ aye
15:53 moritz_ that would be perfect
15:54 moritz_ I just don't know if you could still parse fraI just don't know if you could still lookup parts of statement
15:55 moritz_ sorry, damn lagging connection :(
15:55 [particle] oh, you mean the alternations
15:55 [particle] i see
15:55 [particle] i thought you meant that token lambda {...} was missing {*}
15:55 [particle] but, hrmm.
15:56 moritz_ for example :! instead of :!sigsspace
15:56 [particle] yes
15:56 moritz_ but that would be a tradeoff i'm willing to make
15:56 moritz_ and yes, that's what I meant originally
15:56 [particle] i don't see a way to do it, as it stands.
15:57 [particle] if you are working from a parse tree, then the info is there
15:57 [particle] perhapse you could introspect the match object and do the proper doc lookup
15:58 moritz_ I currently don't see how a compiler could distinguish -> and <->
15:58 diakopter anyone here interested in #perl6 becoming a registered group(/channel) with freenode?  or has that been discussed/nixed already?
15:58 [particle] diakopter: probably best to raise that with audreyt or audreyt_ :)
15:58 diakopter I'm fishing for interest, not authorization
15:59 [particle] okay. i have no idea what it means, and thought she might :)
15:59 diakopter I mean, the channel owner isn't the benefactor
15:59 diakopter oops, beneficiary, I mean
16:00 diakopter the group members/participants are, from what I can tell.
16:00 moritz_ what's the gain?
16:01 diakopter more visibility for the channel? hostname cloaks for recognized members?
16:01 diakopter not too much, really.  just more official-ness.
16:02 moritz_ I'm totally happy with beeing unofficial ;)
16:02 PerlJam does #perl6 need more visibility?
16:02 moritz_ no, more contributers ;)
16:03 PerlJam if one begets the other, then I'm all for it.  :)
16:03 avar TimToady: Flying straight out of .is after the meeting?
16:03 integral Is there some kind of status report thing showing where all the hacking is at the moment?
16:04 diakopter TimToady: how was the talk?
16:04 TimToady yes, back to Boston Friday night
16:04 TimToady went well
16:04 PerlJam integral: better would be a report that shows where the hacking needs to be  :)
16:04 avar TimToady: So it's a two-day thing?
16:04 TimToady 5
16:04 integral PerlJam: maybe
16:04 moritz_ integral: do you mean in terms of svn activity?
16:05 [particle] integral: svn log ??
16:05 integral moritz_: I don't find that very useful, I just see a bunch of strange names
16:06 PerlJam integral: Are you looking for something to do or just trying to document the state of things?
16:06 diakopter TimToady: any insights/feedback from the audience?  or will that come later?
16:06 integral PerlJam: The former unless the latter is part of the former
16:06 TimToady the returns will dribble in over the next few days
16:06 moritz_ integral: audreyt does a bit of pugs hacking, fglock and other are hacking kp6
16:07 avar integral: If I were you I'd try hacking kp6
16:07 avar integral: I implemented unless () {} yesterday in it, it was relatively simple
16:07 moritz_ integral: so do you want to code in haskell, perl5 or perl6?
16:07 integral So is there still things happening with pugs?
16:07 integral moritz_: Any of the three
16:07 avar integral: It's the project that'll hopefully become the perl6-in-perl6 compiler
16:07 TimToady but I think Perl 6 is growing on some folks a bit
16:07 avar integral: There's p5 and p6 to write..
16:08 silug i think i figured out that pugs doesn't build on fedora 7 last night
16:08 TimToady I use f7
16:08 silug at least the last release doesn't
16:08 integral So is there any particular part of kp6 to hack on?  I don't really know what's needed in it
16:08 TimToady get ghc661
16:08 integral ah, is the v6/v6-KindaPerl6/TODO a good place to start?
16:08 avar integral: sort of
16:08 diakopter silug: use the latest svn revision of pugs
16:08 silug diakopter: that's my plan.
16:09 TimToady and ghc661
16:09 moritz_ integral: first skim over http://moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs​/v6/docs/kp6-roadmap.pod.html
16:09 integral hmm, actually I need to go back a step.  I don't even have any idea how to test it
16:09 barney joined #perl6
16:09 avar integral: Some things I'd like to see are packaging it up into a cpan-ready package, more internals hacking like emitters
16:09 silug i'm trying to build fedora packages, so it would have been better to work on a released version, but if i have to use a snapshot, so be it
16:09 TimToady it's in the fedora repo
16:09 avar integral: `make test'
16:09 silug TimToady: way ahead of you.  :)
16:10 TimToady or behind, depending on how you look at it. :)
16:10 integral avar: So are all the v6/* things separate from the toplevel build?
16:10 avar integral: yes
16:10 diakopter silug: oh you're *that* silug. ;)
16:10 integral ah okay.
16:10 silug hopefully by then end of the month you'll be able to "yum install pugs"
16:10 TimToady anyway, latest pugs works fine on f7
16:10 avar integral: v6/v6-KindaPerl only depends on v6-MiniPerl6, and that's only for generating the compiler
16:10 TimToady well, as of a day or so ago
16:11 moritz_ I don't think there were pugs commits in the last 24H
16:11 avar integral: Feel free to ask me any questions about it if you're interested:)
16:11 TimToady starting a new smoke
16:11 integral thanks avar :-)
16:12 TimToady but actually, the only changes since last smoke aren't involved
16:12 diakopter does anyone have url for a non-low-res image of the interphylic hybrid logo that audreyt uses in talks sometimes?
16:12 avar integral: but basically it's on my todo to help a bit with that now that I'm mostly done hacking perl 5.10. Doing cpan -i v6::KindaPerl6; kp6 --ast -e 'class Main { say "foo" }' would be neat:)
16:12 silug does anyone know if there's a ETA on an actual pugs release?
16:13 integral that sounds something fun to look at
16:13 diakopter silug: it's waiting on a big milestone
16:13 moritz_ silug:
16:13 moritz_ sorry
16:13 silug diakopter: something specific, or just something big?  :)
16:14 * diakopter defers to others...
16:14 diakopter yes, something specific.
16:14 masak silug: http://otierney.net/images/perl6.gif
16:15 TimToady it's basically waiting on audreyt to get healthy enough to finish merging the new metaobject protocol
16:15 avar integral: are you fluent in any other language than perl?
16:16 integral avar: perl, haskell, c/c++
16:16 avar integral: if so you might giving writing an emitter a try:)
16:16 integral makefiles too
16:16 integral now that sounds fun
16:16 moritz_ kp6 could use a better makefile
16:16 integral and a test harness
16:16 avar integral: look at kp6.pl and search for /\@.*Token/ that's the default visitor pattern
16:17 integral kp6.pl?  mp6.pl or kp6-perl5.pl?
16:17 avar so you'd write EmitHaskell or something:)
16:17 diakopter I posted a bug about the realclean target on trac the other day.
16:17 avar kp6-perl5.pl sorry
16:17 moritz_ (and a makefile emitter as kp6 backend would be fun as well ;)
16:18 integral I suppose there's also parrot, they seem to have some more bits of the object system done now
16:20 avar integral: There could be, but there isn't afaik
16:25 avar integral: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17085 # unless () implementation
16:25 avar the confusing code is autogenerated:)
16:25 [particle] integral: yeah, we're passing ~85% of our object tests with the new model.
16:26 franck___ joined #perl6
16:26 integral [particle]: excellent!  Just need tidy up the debugging tools now :-)
16:26 avar integral: I'd settle for them not segfaulting:)
16:26 [particle] the parrot source is getting both nicer to look at and safer to code with.
16:27 [particle] fewer gc segfaults would
16:27 [particle] fewer gc-related segfaults would make me more productive
16:27 * integral doesn't think the gc's poor quality looks very good
16:28 [particle] we welcome your assistance in any way.
16:28 [particle] tcl can't run it's test suite now due to an assert() failure
16:29 [particle] TimToady: see anything wrong with adding action stubs ("{*}") to all the STD tokens?
16:30 [particle] *rules, even
16:30 TimToady it can potentially interfere with longest token analysis
16:30 TimToady though that's not a problem for lambda
16:30 [particle] really? hrm.
16:30 TimToady {*} is a side effect, so procedural
16:31 TimToady so we're careful not to put {*} after sigiltwigil, for instance
16:31 [particle] crud. yeah.
16:31 TimToady since we'd like $*foo to be a token, probably
16:32 [particle] i suppose an ast transformation could flatten the sigiltwigil structure into a token
16:32 [particle] then longest token analysis could be performed
16:33 justatheory joined #perl6
16:38 TimToady assertions don't interfere with longest-tokens, so maybe <?{*}> could be a stub too (assuming * is true)
16:39 TimToady or maybe <?> could be a degenerate "always true" assertion
16:39 [particle] it's whatever you want it to be
16:40 TimToady hmm, <*> isn't taken yet
16:40 dduncan joined #perl6
16:40 TimToady but in general {*} stands for side effects, and should terminate the token
16:42 [particle] oh, how i love the extensibility of perl 6 grammars
16:43 TimToady well, not until we bootstrap it.  :)
16:43 [particle] aka "independence day"
16:47 weinig joined #perl6
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17:11 sysdef changed the nick to s
17:12 s changed the nick to SysDef
17:13 Blwood joined #perl6
17:16 avar TimToady: So are you at WG 2.8 for the whole duration in .is? Can't find anything about it on their website
17:16 * avar pesters:)
17:17 avar TimToady: Don't worry, I'm not going to show up and scare the crap out of you:)
17:17 TimToady yeah, WG is for *working* group.  :)
17:18 avar presumably you're showing off p6 functional features or..?
17:19 TimToady that, and p6 non-functional features.  :)
17:21 Psyche^ changed the nick to Patterner
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17:34 Neophyte[Away] joined #perl6
17:35 Neophyte[Away] Thank you thoughtpolice, I did not know this channel existed. :-)
17:36 thoughtpolice np
17:39 dwave joined #perl6
17:42 integral Is there someone who could reset my commitbit password for me?
17:43 [particle] bsmith?
17:43 integral yes, bsmith/bsmith@vtrl.co.uk
17:44 [particle] msg sent
17:44 integral thanks
17:46 integral excellent!  thanks, [particle]
17:46 avar how do I make svk save my password? It kept asking me multiple times yesterday on svk push
17:47 dwave joined #perl6
17:48 dduncan did your commit succeed afterwards?
17:49 avar yup
17:49 clkao avar: use once with svn first.  what version of svk is this?
17:49 dduncan I've found that it only multi-prompted if it had trouble talking to the server ... or if svk wasn't installed right
17:49 avar This is svk, version v2.0.1 (using Subversion bindings 1.4.2)
17:49 dduncan I look forward to a svk with a git backend rather than svn
17:50 diakopter TimToady: did you backlog the question (I asked) here about return type being part of a code object signature?
17:50 avar dduncan: why wouldn't you just use git directly?
17:50 dduncan I do use git directly, for a different project
17:50 avar clkao: Yeah, I guess I'll try with svn
17:50 * integral would like svk to be as fast as git :)
17:50 dduncan but I understand that svk does provide some nice porcelain
17:51 dduncan and compatibility ... a point is, I'd like to be able to use the svk interface perhaps, but use git for plumbing rather than svn
17:51 avar I haven't noticed:)
17:51 avar but then again I just use pull, push, ci, mi, co
17:52 szbalint dduncan: do you work with git in a smaller project?
17:52 dduncan I use git for the Perl 5 version of Muldis DB
17:52 dduncan its stated in the common README with the Perl 6 version under Pugs
17:52 pugs_svnbot r17094 | avar++ | woohoo commit test
17:52 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17094
17:53 dduncan in that case, the whole system is git, my end and public server
17:53 dduncan the latter provided by mugwump
17:53 pugs_svnbot r17095 | avar++ |  r61232@t:  avar | 2007-07-17 17:53:17 +0000
17:53 pugs_svnbot r17095 | avar++ |  rming commit test
17:53 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17095
17:53 avar still asked for the passwd
17:53 avar I only checked out /misc with svn though
17:53 szbalint dduncan: how does the decentralized model work out with relation to merging changes into a main codebase?
17:53 dduncan I would suggest similar tech for pugs if it were possible
17:54 TimToady diakopter: the --> type is both for external info and for coercion
17:54 diakopter avar, you can do svn co -N http://path
17:54 szbalint what I'm specifically interested is the pull/push thing, is it possible to push instead of pull changes?
17:54 TimToady STD uses it for coercion
17:54 [particle] if only git worked on windows....
17:54 weinig joined #perl6
17:54 avar [particle]: it does
17:54 integral the perl5-porter's are having a reposithon at some point ot figure out moving perl5 to svn+svk or git
17:54 [particle] avar: last i knew, it was cygwin only windows support
17:54 dduncan indeed, which re-inspired me to bring up the topic here
17:54 avar [particle]: So what?:)
17:55 avar [particle]: there's a mingw port it progress, but I don't see the problem with cygwin
17:55 * diakopter gets lost
17:55 clkao i am so tired of this
17:55 dduncan szbalint, anyone using svk now, with local branches, is already working distributed ... but git does it better
17:55 [particle] avar: cygwin is not windows
17:56 dduncan audrey does it effectively, for example
17:56 [particle] i hate cygwin. i use an ubuntu vm instead of that crap.
17:56 dduncan distributed that is
17:56 avar [particle]: You can apperently intstall it so that you can use git-* transperently in cmd.bat
17:56 szbalint dduncan: what I mean is, is it possible to push into a repository, instead of having a maintainer pull from various people based on knowledge outside the SCM system?
17:56 * integral has found disconnected working the most useful advantage
17:57 avar dduncan: svk isn't really distributed, it's disconnected
17:57 dduncan okay
17:57 avar It really just provides a buffer for pulling/commiting as opposed to making it just as easy for other people to pull from you as it is to pull from the central repos
17:57 dduncan everyone can push their commits into the same repository, but it keeps better track of history
17:58 avar Although it adds merging stuff that svn doesn't have as I understand it
17:58 clkao you can generate patches with push -P
17:58 integral does svk have something which works like git-rebase?
17:58 integral avar: it tracks merges whereas svn doesn't
17:58 diakopter TimToady: help the feeble here; does that mean the return type is[n't] part of the signature?
17:59 dduncan to be honest, I found using svk merges to be troublesome when I tried working disconnected, so I stopped and now just use svk in mirror mode only
17:59 obra TimToady: is Iceland treating you ok?
17:59 dduncan the main advantage here being is I can make a clean checkout dir ... and have a copy of all revisions on my machine, without hitting the server
18:00 dduncan I think the problem I had with svk is related to svns limitations
18:00 dduncan svn only has a single history line, afaik
18:00 avar yes
18:00 avar svk suffers for its crappy backend
18:00 avar clkao: is anyone working on alternative backends currently?
18:00 diakopter avar: did you try the svn co -N path
18:00 TimToady diakopter: see S02:1021
18:00 avar diakopter: later..
18:01 TimToady obra: yes, it's fine now that I've given my talk :)
18:01 dduncan so if svk was repurposed to use git as a main backend, I think the picture would be improved, while such a svk would provide ease of migration to current svk svn users
18:01 dduncan I think
18:01 obra TimToady: excellent. Did you get through all your slodes?
18:01 integral What I do like about svk/svn is that I can svn rm a branch, but all its history is still kept, whereas git seems much more lax about keeping history of tags and branches
18:01 szbalint I kind of paid attention to git in the very first weeks of its development but then lost track of it, that is why I was wondering about the push thing. LK folk don't really use that :)
18:01 obra slides, even
18:02 dduncan there is no 'rm' with git ... you simply don't have the file in your checkout dir, and the next commit notes that it was deleted
18:02 TimToady I got to all the ones I expected to, and got to flash through the ones I thought I'd have to flash through
18:02 dduncan git works on whole dirs rather than files
18:02 * integral meant deleting a branch, not a file in a branch
18:02 dduncan okay
18:03 dduncan still, I don't think anything is actually lost
18:03 TimToady "we did a major refactor of regexes <flash> <flash> <flash> <flash> <flash> <flash> <flash> was pretty effective
18:05 avar dduncan: git itself has compatability tools for svn, you really don't need svk to complicate matters
18:05 avar dduncan: Check out cogito if you want a more svn/cvs like interface
18:05 dduncan okay
18:06 dduncan well for the record I do like git just fine by itself, though I have so far been using it somewhat minimalist ... mainly I thought the svk thing might help other people adopt svk
18:06 dduncan I mean git
18:07 avar Ya, perl people maybe:)
18:09 thoughtpolice question: if variables don't interpolate, would there be a way for example, to define a Regex object explicitly where I could use some sort of user-defined string and 'interpolate it' from there?
18:10 TimToady diner &
18:10 thoughtpolice i realize variables don't interpolate, I'm just kind of spit-balling as to how the same effect could be acheived (aside from using a :P5 modifier)
18:10 integral variables don't interpolate?
18:10 TimToady s:3rd/<null>/n/
18:10 diakopter TimToady: fg
18:10 thoughtpolice integral: nope
18:10 thoughtpolice integral: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#Variable_(non-)interpolation
18:10 avar use { $var } ?
18:11 TimToady do you want the variable interpreted as regex?
18:11 TimToady if so, that's <{$var}>
18:11 TimToady (brackets must balance tho)
18:12 TimToady &
18:13 thoughtpolice TimToady: where $var would be something like "[a-z]" (trivial) just as a string
18:14 BinGOs this has so reminded me.
18:14 REPLeffect joined #perl6
18:15 BinGOs I've added a pugs smoke on netbsd to my smoking rotation.
18:15 IceShaman thoughtpolice, thought that was a..z now :/
18:16 PerlJam it's actually <[a..z]>
18:18 thoughtpolice IceShaman: i'm just confused. :( either way if what TimToady said acheives what you want then I guess that it's NYI in pugs
18:18 PerlJam doesn't pugs just punt to PGE?
18:18 explorer joined #perl6
18:19 thoughtpolice you can set it to use PGE via PUGS_REGEX_ENGINE if you have parrot installed
18:19 thoughtpolice although
18:19 thoughtpolice on my openbsd box any sort of regex-operation just seemed to hang :/
18:19 thoughtpolice so that might need a little work
18:19 BinGOs ouch
18:19 IceShaman dunno, the apocalypse is doing a pretty nifty job of distorting reality enough for me to swallow it whole without question
18:20 thoughtpolice IceShaman: in either case since <{ }> is really taking a closure and interpolating it yeah, I suppose that's the desired result
18:20 BinGOs openbsbd can be a real fucktard at times.
18:21 thoughtpolice BinGOs: i've been pretty happy so far
18:21 thoughtpolice BinGOs: if I ever manage to find the time to get parrot and pugs built on my dragonflybsd box then we'll see if something similar happens
18:21 thoughtpolice of course this will require me to port ghc first
18:21 thoughtpolice which is why I need to find the time :(
18:22 BinGOs I'm doing smoking pugs on netbsd
18:22 BinGOs pkgsrc++ # for the shininess regarding ghc
18:23 thoughtpolice yeah pkgsrc is pretty nice
18:23 thoughtpolice but I can't install ghc from pkgsrc since as pkgsrc tells me, it's not supported. a bummer, really.
18:23 thoughtpolice i'll have to do an unregistered build first
18:23 [particle] you don't need ghc for parrot, and i think it builds on dragonfly now
18:23 thoughtpolice [particle]: cool. but I need ghc for pugs
18:24 BinGOs it is a show-stopper really.
18:24 thoughtpolice i figure when I get around to getting ghc on there which I know I eventually will
18:24 thoughtpolice i might as well just be the maintainer for it since I'll probably be using dragonfly in the future
18:24 [particle] thoughtpolice: we'd appreciate dragonflybsd smokes down the hall at #parrot ;)
18:24 BinGOs freebsd must have ghc surely.
18:24 uj joined #perl6
18:25 TimToady .oO(ghc on parrot)
18:25 thoughtpolice BinGOs: yes, but i can't install ghc from pkgsrc, and hence I have no copy of ghc on there period
18:25 BinGOs I missed a comma there >:)
18:25 thoughtpolice so i'll just have to port it, basically
18:25 * [particle] shivers
18:25 integral TimToady: It's possibly, there's a "LambdaVM" which is GHC on java
18:25 thoughtpolice but I doubt I'll run into much trouble anyway
18:25 thoughtpolice [particle]: cool on that note.
18:25 BinGOs dragonfly is freebsd under the skin though
18:25 integral I think technically it's actually trivial to do :)
18:25 integral *possible
18:26 BinGOs or wings or whatever
18:26 thoughtpolice like I said, when I get a free weekend or a day or two or something I'll get around to getting parrot on there and getting ghc onto it
18:26 thoughtpolice man, I remember the last time I compiled ghc. I had to compile it twice actually. :(
18:26 [particle] pugs-on-parrot
18:26 BinGOs 12 hours or so on netbsd ( for ghc ).
18:26 thoughtpolice first I had to compile ghc 6.2.2 from obsd's ports so I could build 6.6.1
18:27 thoughtpolice not cool :(
18:27 BinGOs 6.2.4 to do 6.6.1
18:27 thoughtpolice [particle]: when I get around to it though yeah I can run some smoke's for parrot
18:27 [particle] thanks, thoughtpolice
18:27 thoughtpolice BinGOs: meh
18:27 thoughtpolice either way it still kind of sucked
18:27 thoughtpolice [particle]: np
18:28 uj left #perl6
18:28 BinGOs but a pugs smoke is pretty swift once ghc is set up.
18:28 BinGOs hurrah!
18:28 thoughtpolice i figure I'll probably spend at least a half a day getting all that set up
18:29 thoughtpolice hopefully the ghc port will be reletively painless (and if it isn't then I'll curse a lot and hope that does something)
18:29 thoughtpolice the other matters are just ones of letting the hours of compilation go by.
18:31 thoughtpolice [particle]: actually I figure I'll go ahead and just compile parrot on my dragonfly box. it's not doing much other than irssi anyway ;)
18:31 BinGOs a pugs smoke on my netbsd vmware machine at the end of a smoking cycle is the best I can offer
18:31 [particle] thoughtpolice++
18:31 pugs_svnbot r17096 | fglock++ | [kp6] added Prelude.pm to Makefile;
18:31 pugs_svnbot r17096 | fglock++ | - added return type to Signature and renamed some attributes
18:31 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17096
18:32 BinGOs it is the end of a rotation of CPAN smoking machines.
18:32 * BinGOs has to keep his stats up.
18:33 BinGOs I have an OpenBSD machine in this rotation. So I could consider a pugs smoke in there somewhere
18:33 thoughtpolice oi
18:34 thoughtpolice i really need to get out of vmware
18:34 thoughtpolice i mean it's served me well and all, but physical computers are, well, preferable
18:34 BinGOs It is my only choice really.
18:34 thoughtpolice mine too
18:34 BinGOs I have a viable OpenBSD-4.1 image running.
18:34 thoughtpolice except i'm probably a little more limited than you are in the fashion that my boxes have fairly damn small disk space
18:34 thoughtpolice i'm running archlinux, dragonflybsd and openbsd
18:35 BinGOs hell, if the OS runs it is viable, no ?
18:35 thoughtpolice iirc my archlinux box has like 5gb, openbsd like 8 and dragonflybsd like 10. that's all I could spare really.
18:35 thoughtpolice yeah. it works great, but a bigger disk would be appreciated to be honest. this xp system only has an 80gb drive
18:35 thoughtpolice need to get like a 500
18:36 BinGOs I'm on a laptop >:)
18:36 thoughtpolice luckily i don't use any sort of graphical environments
18:36 BinGOs oh I am on W2K3 >:)
18:37 thoughtpolice so that saves some space and plus I can just use putty rather than have to keep switching in and out of vmware
18:37 _meppl changed the nick to meppl
18:38 [particle] thoughtpolice: i saw 500gb for $99 today
18:38 BinGOs I use VNC Viewer to access my running images.
18:38 thoughtpolice [particle]: i saw one about two weeks ago
18:39 thoughtpolice when I get some money I think I'll just indulge myself and go insane with like 4x1TB drives
18:39 BinGOs http://use.perl.org/~BinGOs/journal/33718 # covers my recent woes.
18:39 Juerd thoughtpolice: Better to do 8x500GB, usually
18:39 Juerd thoughtpolice: Unless you don't have the physical space.
18:40 thoughtpolice Juerd: hm i'll keep it in mind.
18:40 Juerd thoughtpolice: With 8 channels, you could have better performance, and a broken disk would only be a loss of 500 GB.
18:40 thoughtpolice yeah good point
18:40 Juerd And it's probably cheaper too :)
18:40 thoughtpolice you have converted me
18:41 BinGOs when I think of our bladeframe at $work and start thinking, I get all excited until I remember it only runs RedHat, Windows 2K3 and Solaris 10
18:41 thoughtpolice i'll just say I have the equivilant of 4x1tb drives.
18:41 Juerd Are you going for hardware raid (to avoid saturating your PCI bus) or software raid (portability, rescuability)?
18:41 thoughtpolice actually i've got solaris 10 on a computer in my room
18:41 thoughtpolice Juerd: probably software
18:41 * Juerd does only software raid atm btw
18:42 thoughtpolice and on the note of solaris 10
18:42 thoughtpolice zfs is remarkably nice :)
18:42 BinGOs yes, I have a Solaris 10 image running here in this vmware server as well.
18:42 Juerd I like being able to pick any controller, or multiple controllers, and continue to use existing arrays.
18:42 Juerd I think zfs is very interesting.
18:42 * Juerd wants linux to support zfs natively
18:42 BinGOs and Solaris 11 >:)
18:42 * thoughtpolice does too
18:43 Juerd User space makes having it for your root fs way too complex
18:43 BinGOs that woudl be shiny.
18:43 thoughtpolice i mean, zfs-via-fuse is an option and fuse can do really good performance file systems (ntfs3g is an example)
18:43 thoughtpolice but just native support would be better in the long run
18:43 thoughtpolice imo, at least
18:43 * BinGOs goes to make food.
18:44 * integral ponders putting a fuse server inside parrot/perl5 and serving the objects like /sys does for kernel objects
18:44 Juerd Fuse is nice, but I wouldn't use it for /
18:44 BinGOs speaking as a Solaris admin, zfs is very shiny.
18:44 thoughtpolice i don't even think you can boot off zfs in solaris yet. well, actually I think you can but it's not working to the level everybody wants it
18:44 Juerd BinGOs: Isn't it scary, that it does everything so... automagically? :)
18:44 thoughtpolice yeah it really is. it's a nice filesystem and some of the features are really slick
18:45 integral BinGOs: awww, your USB enclosure's called integral
18:45 BinGOs heh
18:45 thoughtpolice i saw the example they had of creating a pool with a mirror and the automatic recovery
18:45 BinGOs I have a little blue light flashing at me, integral all day!
18:45 thoughtpolice they had me at that
18:45 thoughtpolice :)
18:45 Juerd thoughtpolice: Same here :)
18:46 thoughtpolice good stuff
18:46 Juerd But I have mostly root filesystems :)
18:46 Juerd (Lots of tiny virtual machines)
18:46 thoughtpolice i've also been looking into experimenting more with dtrace
18:46 thoughtpolice but i haven't gotten around with it
18:46 thoughtpolice Juerd: uml?
18:46 SysDef changed the nick to sysdef
18:46 BinGOs integral: it makes me think of you. ( and not just when I see drain covers ).
18:46 Juerd thoughtpolice: Xen
18:47 BinGOs youch.
18:47 Juerd http://www.rot13.org/~dpavlin/fuse_dbi.html  # omg
18:47 BinGOs ignore me. I have been playing too much with egenera's bladeframes recently
18:47 thoughtpolice ah
18:48 thoughtpolice i've wanted to try xen for a while
18:48 jisom joined #perl6
18:48 thoughtpolice i need some more horsepower though
18:48 BinGOs which include xensource for 'vBlades'
18:48 Tene Juerd: yeah, Fuse::DBI is pretty nifty.
18:48 fglock left #perl6
18:50 Juerd Tene: I wish I had a use for it!
18:50 Juerd thoughtpolice: I'm going to xenify feather when I get the microgrant money
18:50 integral does feather have HVM?  I guess it was built before the chips were out
18:51 Juerd integral: What is HVM?
18:51 integral hrm, hardware virtual machine.  I guess it was the wrong term to use
18:51 Tene virtualization support on the cpu
18:51 Juerd Oh, the VT stuff
18:51 Juerd integral: No, but feather is getting a core2 duo
18:51 Juerd IIRC it has that
18:51 integral oooh, nice
18:51 Tene yep
18:52 Juerd integral: What would you need it for? :)
18:52 BinGOs damn I have spelt it so wrong. Egenera: http://www.egenera.com/
18:52 integral I just wondered if you've be running just paravirtualised or fully
18:52 Juerd integral: Para.
18:52 thoughtpolice yeah
18:52 Juerd integral: Has several advantages that I wouldn't want to miss :)
18:52 thoughtpolice c2d has VT
18:52 thoughtpolice actually VT's been before core duo even
18:53 BinGOs shiny, but expensive.
18:53 thoughtpolice iirc
18:54 Juerd integral: But if I understand it correctly, VT would allow us to set up something like openbsd or windows, which could be useful for testing one day.
18:54 thoughtpolice [particle]: i've got a baby parrot, it seems. :)
18:54 integral *nod*
18:54 thoughtpolice [particle]: i'm installing the needed perl modules now but I'll get around to running a smoke here pretty quick
18:54 integral and one day ParrotOS
18:54 Juerd (Windows only if someone else is going to pay for the license. I'm not.)
18:55 Juerd afk
19:01 weinig changed the nick to weinig|bbl
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19:17 Juerd re
19:23 Blwood joined #perl6
19:36 Juerd TimToady: What would you say to someone who thinks "subtleties" like operator precedence are built into languages especially to distinguish "die hards" from "newbies"?
19:36 Juerd TimToady: You're a language designer, so why do you have operator precedence - is it just because C had it, or do you actually think it's very useful?
19:37 Juerd (I'm finding it hard to argue with this guy, because I take differences in operator precedence for granted and don't know any better.)
19:37 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
19:37 [particle] operator precedence is like mental parentheses
19:38 zamolxes Juerd: so 2+2*2  should be 8?
19:38 Juerd Apparently, yes.
19:39 [particle] instead of?
19:39 Juerd [particle]: This guy argues in favour of adding parens everywhere because that's clearer.
19:39 Juerd [particle]: Instead of 6.
19:39 zamolxes That should confuse any 3rd grader
19:39 zamolxes let alone 'newbies'
19:40 szbalint too many parens would result from that imo
19:40 Juerd I agree
19:40 szbalint I don't like writing too much of them :)
19:40 * Juerd thinks bracketing constructs hurt readability in many cases.
19:40 [particle] yeah, the precedence is a parenthesis cache
19:40 Juerd When you indent along with it, it's no problem.
19:41 Juerd But I like to avoid nested parens.
19:41 Juerd (on a single line)
19:41 Juerd foo(bar(), baz()) sucks
19:41 Juerd Gimme foo bar, baz :)
19:42 Aankhen`` I like foo(bar(), baz()). :-(
19:42 Juerd I don't like the ))))) you eventually get at the end.
19:42 Aankhen`` Well, I do love Lisp, so.
19:42 Juerd I don't want to count parens, and editor highlighting is too interactive to be fast.
19:42 Juerd foo(
19:42 Juerd    bar(
19:42 Juerd    ),
19:42 Juerd    baz(
19:42 Juerd    )
19:42 Juerd )
19:42 Juerd that's readable :)
19:43 Juerd But very long.
19:43 [particle] it's a vertical language
19:50 Aankhen`` That's ugly.
19:51 Aankhen`` Just use Emacs, you'll never worry about matching parens again. :-P
19:53 statico joined #perl6
19:54 monomorph won't we get a lot of parens in perl 6 with nested method calls (/me remembers reading that method calls require parens in many cases, maybe that's old info)
19:54 monomorph x.foo(y.bar(), z.baz())
19:57 monomorph instead of  just foo bar, baz if these were top-level functions
19:58 Aankhen`` I don't believe you need parens on a method call without any arguments.
19:58 Aankhen`` So I *think* this could also work: foo: $x, y.bar, z.bar
19:59 Aankhen`` Uhm, that's: foo: $x, $y.bar, $z.bar
19:59 monomorph found it in s12: Parentheses (or a colon) are required on the dot notation if there are any arguments
19:59 Aankhen`` Hmm, then maybe you could say: $x.foo: $y.bar, $z.bar
20:00 Aankhen`` But I'm not sure.  Will need to reread S12.
20:00 monomorph yeah, that example is right in the next paragraph
20:00 monomorph no, you're right
20:00 Aankhen`` Kewl.
20:00 marmic joined #perl6
20:01 monomorph it's a tiny bit inconsistent with function calls, but the colon notation works well enough
20:06 pmurias joined #perl6
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20:18 Juerd I don't think "foo: LIST" would work instead of foo(LIST), and it's not necessary either.
20:18 Juerd It's ambiguous with labels :)
20:18 weinig|bbl changed the nick to weinig
20:18 Juerd With an invocant, however, something is needed to visually separate the two things, and to disambiguate the whole from a function call.
20:21 devogon joined #perl6
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21:05 pmurias fglock: hi
21:05 fglock pmurias: hi
21:08 fglock commuting &
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21:18 Juerd Heh.
21:18 Juerd I love that several people help maintain feather now (esp diakopter)
21:18 Juerd I was about to update /etc/resolv.conf, and read:
21:19 Juerd # we use our own local caching nameserver now...
21:19 Juerd Perfect :)
21:19 Juerd (I had just installed an external local caching nameserver)
21:26 diakopter hee hee
21:27 diakopter Juerd: let me know if you change resolv.conf, and I'll shut off the other local one
21:27 Juerd diakopter: Why would I?
21:27 diakopter I dunno
21:27 jferrero joined #perl6
21:27 Juerd As long as it's cached, I don't care much who does it :)
21:28 Juerd And dnscache is light weight and secure
21:28 [particle] is feather under heavy load ? svn diff viewer seems unresponsive
21:28 Juerd [particle]: Not at all
21:28 [particle] ah, better now
21:28 Juerd Heh.
21:28 Juerd Magic uptime.
21:29 diakopter I like dnscache (the one I put on there), b/c it's absurdly trivial to override domains' NS records (instead of it looking them up in the root hints).
21:29 diakopter particular domains, I mean.
21:29 Juerd I wish it could more easily listen on multiple interfaces.
21:29 Juerd Like, er, 0.0.0.0 :)
21:30 Juerd I have another box here with 48 interfaces
21:30 diakopter it'll do that easily...
21:31 diakopter find that instance's env/ dir, and s/127.0.0.1/0.0.0.0/ in env/IP
21:32 Juerd Tried that. Didn't listen at all after that
21:38 diakopter something else on that port preventing it on any of the interfaces?
21:38 Juerd nafaik
21:39 Juerd But I have to delay this migration anyway
21:39 Juerd I just found out it hosts zones too.
21:39 diakopter ah, well, that would do it.
21:40 Juerd It has to host zones, so I don't think I'll switch to djbdns on that box
21:55 rhandom left #perl6
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22:10 meppl good night
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23:43 Aankhen`` Oooh, I never knew pmurias is a Pratchett reader. :-D
23:49 Juerd Fucking hell
23:49 Juerd Our router just died
23:49 Juerd That is: the hard disk is broken
23:49 Juerd The kernel still runs, so routing is functional
23:49 Juerd But expect feather to be unreachable at some point
23:54 * diakopter expects feather to be unreachable at some point
23:55 * Aankhen`` expects diakopter to expect feather to be unreachable at some point.
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