Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:14 pugs_svnbot r17097 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : updated Language.pod concerning transaction specifying and scope
00:14 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17097
00:14 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17097 - Pugs - Trac
00:15 dduncan can I assume that pugscode.org is not on feather?
00:15 dduncan or is it?
00:15 dduncan actually, probably not
00:15 dduncan or the commit wouldn't have worked
00:18 diakopter it is on feather..
00:18 Juerd Routing still works
00:18 Juerd I'm in the process of building a new router
00:19 Juerd So far, I've screwed up twice already (I blame fatigue)
00:19 Juerd First forgot to zero out the partition table
00:20 Juerd And the second time I forgot that newer knoppixes use newer mdadm's, that default to a newer superblock version, that lilo cannot handle yet
00:20 Juerd It's now booting for the third time.
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00:23 pugs_svnbot r17098 | Aankhen++ | * [irclog] a few more abbrs.
00:23 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17098
00:23 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17098 - Pugs - Trac
00:24 Juerd If I do everything right (probably not) you will experience not more than a network glitch
00:24 Juerd If I'm fast enough (probably not) existing ssh sessions won't even die
00:25 Juerd MAKEDEV--  # takes 55 seconds!
00:25 Juerd Dear whoever developped MAKEDEV, please don't do all logic in shell scripting. It's incredibly slow.
00:26 Juerd Dear myself, make a tarball of whatever MAKEDEV makes, and re-use that. It's the same every time anyway.
00:27 Juerd Base system installed; installing kernel
00:28 Juerd Dear Debian, why the hell is lilo executed before the kernel is installed?
00:32 Juerd Restoring config
00:35 Aankhen`` Dear Juerd, I CAN HAZ CHEEZBURGER?  Love, Aankhen.
00:37 Juerd No, sorry, but I can make you a cheese sandwich
00:38 Juerd Come to Einsteinstraat 67, 3316 GG  Dordrecht, The Netherlands
00:41 Juerd Here goes
00:41 Juerd If you want to ping, ping 193.200.132.2 and feather
00:41 Juerd :)
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00:47 diakopter my two ssh sessions remained up WHEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:47 Juerd re
00:47 Juerd That was...
00:47 Juerd ...scary :)
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01:19 diakopter Juerd: I was exaggerating my elation. sorry to frighten you.
01:21 Juerd I was frightened mostly by the PCI NIC that wouldn't fit.
01:21 Juerd Most of the downtime was actually caused by mechanical problems!
01:21 Juerd Fortunately, I carry a leatherman tool with pliers.
01:22 devbot6 planet6: perl6.announce: Parrot 0.4.14 "Now, with Seat Belts!" Released by jerry gay <http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl​.perl6.announce/2007/07/msg571.html>
01:22 lambdabot http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl​.perl6.announce/2007/07/msg571.html>
01:23 diakopter heh
01:23 diakopter devbot6: thank you
01:23 devbot6 diakopter: Error: "thank" is not a valid command.
01:24 diakopter devbot6: help
01:24 devbot6 diakopter: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
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02:16 Aankhen`` I may have asked this before, but I can't find where
02:16 Aankhen`` … what is {*} for in STD?
02:17 Aankhen`` I think I've seen a few explanations but I couldn't really follow any of them.
02:17 diakopter Aankhen``: backlog a bit; it was discussed earlier today
02:18 Aankhen`` OK, thanks.
02:18 diakopter unless you were talking about the explanations from earlier today :) (sorry)
02:20 Aankhen`` Er, where was it discussed?
02:20 Aankhen`` Oh, possibly while I was asleep.
02:20 * Aankhen`` hits up the online los.
02:20 Aankhen`` Logs, even.
02:23 Aankhen`` Ohhhhhh.
02:24 Aankhen`` [particle]++ # the ABC::Grammar stuff really helps.
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05:38 moritz_ Aye, it does
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06:01 icy-lisper ?eval sub postfix: <!> ($n) { return [*] 1 .. $n }; say 8!;
06:01 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected ": <!>"␤expecting "::", "handles", "is", bare trait, subroutine parameters, trait or block
06:01 icy-lisper ?eval sub postfix:<!> ($n) { return [*] 1 .. $n }; say 8!;
06:01 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[40320␤] Bool::True
06:04 moritz_ ?eval sub postfix :<!> { [*] 1..$^a }; 4!
06:04 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected ":<!>"␤expecting "handles", "is", bare trait, subroutine parameters, trait or block
06:04 moritz_ ok, no whitespace allowed at all
06:04 moritz_ ?eval sub postfix:< ! > { [*] 1..$^a }; 4!
06:04 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "!"␤expecting "_", fraction, exponent, term postfix or operator
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06:08 bloonix good morning
06:08 moritz_ good morning bloonix ;)
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08:05 moritz_ S02/"Immutable types" # irc log test
08:06 moritz_ YaY, it works ;)
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08:27 thoughtpolice oi, morning
08:27 thoughtpolice hey moritz_
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08:28 moritz_ hey thoughtpolice ;)
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08:35 pmurias hi
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08:39 masak hi pmurias
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09:01 thoughtpolice @tell [particle] i submitted my dragonfly smokes for 0.4.13; they're out of the tarball and not the svn repo, although I'm most likely going to get around to pulling a svn copy pretty soon and after which I'll set up a cron or somesuch to get the latest revision and run a smoke for you guys
09:01 lambdabot Consider it noted.
09:02 thoughtpolice damn, I'm behind the times. 0.4.14 was just released?
09:02 thoughtpolice now i feel obsolete
09:02 moritz ;)
09:03 moritz http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl​.perl6.announce/2007/07/msg571.html
09:03 lambdabot Title: Parrot 0.4.14 "Now, with Seat Belts!" Released - nntp.perl.org, http://tinyurl.com/ypggma
09:03 moritz cool name, I have to admit
09:03 moritz fitting for all the lint/splint things they have done
09:03 masak moritz: the name makes you not want to try the earlier versions
09:03 thoughtpolice i think i'll be fine
09:03 moritz masak: aye ;)
09:03 thoughtpolice i just need to drive safely :)
09:04 masak thoughtpolice: :)
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09:04 masak why don't you upgrade?
09:04 thoughtpolice masak: i'm actually running that smoke right now
09:04 moritz as someone on #parrot put it: "with seat belts, but not everone is buckled yet" ;)
09:04 thoughtpolice and it's out of a tarball
09:05 thoughtpolice masak: after I get this smoke done I'll pull the svn repo and from there I can start doing regular smokes
09:05 masak thoughtpolice: ah, ok
09:06 thoughtpolice gah
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09:07 thoughtpolice * Sending data to smokeserver "http://smoke.parrotcode.org/smoke/"... error: The submitted smoke has an invalid format!
09:07 thoughtpolice screw it; I'll pull the SVN repo and see if I can get it done from there.
09:08 thoughtpolice only now I also have to install svn.
09:08 thoughtpolice oh, the woes
09:08 masak :)
09:08 thoughtpolice of having a brand new system, that is
09:09 moritz aptitude install subversion # debian++
09:09 thoughtpolice my dfbsd box is somewhat in its infancy :(
09:09 thoughtpolice cd /usr/pkgsrc/devel/subversion; bmake install
09:09 thoughtpolice pkgsrc++
09:09 thoughtpolice :)
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09:10 thoughtpolice i would use git-svn for doing it since I already have git on there
09:10 moritz I'm just compiling pugs on maschine by bloonix++ ;)
09:11 thoughtpolice but I'm not exactly sure of its overall mechanics in case I ever want to submit code
09:11 thoughtpolice (since I'd probably want to use a branch for it)
09:11 moritz that's really cool, installing all dependencies within minutes
09:13 thoughtpolice i have to compile my stuff
09:13 thoughtpolice on both my bsd boxes
09:13 thoughtpolice but I really have no problem with it; I don't quite know why people complain about compilation so much
09:14 moritz i takes time
09:14 moritz that's all
09:14 thoughtpolice i guess the time of the compilation isn't too life-altering for me; I normally have other things I can partake in at the time :>
09:14 moritz and when I want ghc installed, I don't want to wait 3 hours until it finishes with bootstrapping itself ;)
09:15 thoughtpolice hah. i don't think it took quite 3 hours for 6.6.1 to install here
09:15 moritz but on my (slow) maschine
09:15 thoughtpolice overall I'd say it would have taken around there though, since I had to compile 6.2.4 from C first
09:15 moritz still, it will be more than an hour for you
09:15 thoughtpolice and then compile 6.6.1
09:16 thoughtpolice moritz: this thing has 256mb ram with a p4 and like
09:16 thoughtpolice 8gb of hdd space (openbsd box)
09:16 moritz thoughtpolice: sounds like no fun to compile pugs on it ;)
09:17 thoughtpolice kinda
09:17 thoughtpolice :x
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09:18 thoughtpolice hm. i feel like coding something.
09:18 thoughtpolice a lot.
09:19 moritz hack pugs. or kp6
09:19 thoughtpolice no, something more low level.
09:19 thoughtpolice parrot mayhaps?
09:19 moritz yes
09:19 moritz or perl6-on-parrot
09:19 thoughtpolice I haven't licked my C chops in a while
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09:57 agentzh *** Cannot find GHC 6.6.1 or above from path (we have 6.6).
09:57 agentzh *** Please install a newer version from http://haskell.org/ghc/.
09:57 lambdabot Title: The Glasgow Haskell Compiler
09:57 masak agentzh: well, have you?
09:57 moritz agentzh: audreyt++ recently added the new dependency
09:58 agentzh moritz: feather still uses GHC 6.6, i'm afraid.
09:58 masak oh, it's feather
09:59 moritz agentzh: then it's just wating for an update - feather is unstable, and I know that testing has 6.6.1
09:59 agentzh if anyone with root access to feather, please update the GHC there. :)
09:59 agentzh s/with/has/
09:59 masak who does have root on feather?
10:00 agentzh me :)
10:00 agentzh and a few others.
10:00 masak agentzh: so... if you have it...
10:00 moritz diakopter, Juerd , TimToady , adureyt
10:00 moritz s/du/ud/
10:01 agentzh well, i'm currently on holiday and the windows box i'm using doesn't have putty...
10:01 moritz windows--
10:01 masak agentzh: putty is downloadable on the web
10:02 moritz it should be made a crime to ship an OS without ssh
10:02 agentzh masak: i know that part...but i'm just too lazy ;)
10:02 masak ah, ok
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10:04 agentzh the web connection is very bad here, especially while using CGI:IRC...i'm off :) &
10:13 thoughtpolice @karma windows
10:13 lambdabot windows has a karma of -6
10:13 thoughtpolice hah.
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11:10 meppl gugu
11:11 TimToady I always carry a copy of putty on my USB stick...
11:11 TimToady moritz: the postfix:< ! > form ought to work
11:12 TimToady since it should canonicalize to postfix:{'!'}
11:12 moritz I thought so
11:12 TimToady but the other forms don't admit whitespace
11:12 moritz the <...> is just the list constructor, irght?
11:13 TimToady it's the qw// naked form as used to represent constant subscript slices
11:13 TimToady hash slicing syntax, essentially
11:14 TimToady so circumfix:< ( ) > turns into circumfix:{'(',')'}
11:14 moritz ok
11:14 TimToady I use extra whitespace in STD for instance
11:14 thoughtpolice @tell [particle] scratch that last message; I just pulled parrot's SVN repo and the smokes went great and they've been submitted; I'll continue smoking future revisions for you guys on dragonfly.
11:14 lambdabot Consider it noted.
11:15 moritz TimToady: did you read [particle]'s suggestions about using grammar subclassing for perlhints?
11:15 TimToady darn my compose key is broken...
11:15 thoughtpolice 7255 OK from 7262 tests (99.90% ok)
11:15 thoughtpolice almost there. :>
11:15 moritz buy a new one? *g*
11:15 thoughtpolice i need a new keyboard and chair
11:15 TimToady I think that would help in I18n eventually
11:15 TimToady or some other kind of indirection
11:16 moritz and do you think it works?
11:16 thoughtpolice anybody have any recommendations?
11:16 thoughtpolice i've heard microsoft's natural ergonomic keyboard 4000 is totally awesome
11:17 TimToady moritz: would probably depend on how the data structures actually attach
11:18 TimToady it's an interesting question whether a subclass can turn dumb comments into smart comments after the fact in a used module...
11:19 moritz well, the subclass would hold the data, and not as comments
11:19 TimToady sorry, was going off on a tangent
11:19 moritz never mind ;)
11:21 moritz and should all tokens that actually match text (not assertions) actually get a {*}?
11:22 moritz I noticed lambda has none, so I guess a compiler couldn't determine if -> or <-> was parsed
11:23 TimToady yes, lambda is an example of a missing {*}
11:23 TimToady it should be a separate token
11:24 moritz ok
11:24 TimToady from a grammar point of view, it could be processed in the rule above as $<lambda>, but you might want a hook in the actual rule
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11:43 masak I did a bit of grepping in t/ for tests relating to the bug we uncovered in pugs yesterday
11:43 masak ?eval my $a = 'word'; --$a; $a
11:43 evalbot_r17041 \-1.0
11:44 masak didn't find anything relating to ++ and -- of string values
11:44 TimToady and did you find any such tests?
11:44 masak TimToady: no
11:44 masak there's t/operators/inc.t
11:44 nipotan changed the nick to nipotaway
11:44 masak but it almost exclusively does numbers
11:45 masak so I'm adding some string ++ and -- tests if that's ok
11:45 TimToady masak++
11:45 moritz more tests are always good ;)
11:45 masak should anyone ever realize they're duplicates, I guess that's easily fixed :)
11:46 moritz masak: the smartlinks should show that easily
11:47 masak moritz: how? I know about them, but not where they are
11:48 moritz masak: when you look at http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html, you see those links like "- Show t/regex/smartparse.t lines 9–14 (0 √, 1 ×) -"
11:48 lambdabot Title: S02
11:49 masak moritz: thx
11:49 moritz you're welcome
11:51 masak ah, found it
11:51 masak it's t/operators/auto.t
11:53 masak but all tests pass in that one, so I'm sure I could add something :)
11:53 sunnavy hi, does anyone encounter this: when `make test' about pugs, your box will be shutted down surprisingly. my os is Gentoo, Pugs is up to date and GHC is 6.6.1.
11:54 masak sunnavy: sounds very unfortunate. do you get any message about it?
11:54 moritz what do you mean by "shutted down"? as if you typed "halt"?
11:54 sunnavy moritz: yes
11:54 TimToady in the compile or in the smoke?
11:55 moritz sunnavy: are you compiling as root?
11:55 moritz sunnavy: a normal user shouldn't have the right to shutdown
11:55 sunnavy moritz: I don't think so.
11:55 TimToady and if in the compile, how much memory on the box?
11:55 TimToady I'm thinking running out of swap space maybe
11:56 sunnavy TimToady: I think it's in the smoke.
11:56 moritz sunnavy: does that happen every time?
11:56 TimToady though should just give "out of memory"
11:56 sunnavy I tried 3 times :-(
11:56 moritz :(
11:56 TimToady same place in the smoke?
11:56 masak ?eval my $foo = 'A99'; ++$foo;
11:56 evalbot_r17041 "B00"
11:56 masak TimToady: is the reverse still true in p6?
11:56 masak i.e -- gives back A99
11:57 masak or are both false?
11:57 sunnavy it's suddenly shutted down, I even don't have time to look.
11:57 TimToady should go to A99, yes
11:57 masak ok
11:57 sunnavy Next time I'll stare at this
11:57 TimToady and A00 should fail
11:57 masak ok
11:58 moritz sunnavy: try to run 'script pugs_smoke.log' and then 'make smoke'
11:58 moritz sunnavy: then you have a transcript after reboot ;)
11:59 TimToady you might force an fsck
11:59 masak why's it called "autoincrementing" anyway?
11:59 sunnavy thanks, moritz. I'll try again.
11:59 TimToady PDP-11
11:59 moritz masak: auto = self
11:59 masak moritz: ah, 'course
11:59 masak thought of it as 'automatic' there for a while
12:00 moritz what's "matic"? *g*
12:00 TimToady mov @R0++,@R1++ or some such
12:00 masak moritz: :)
12:00 masak TimToady: cool
12:00 sunnavy If I'm out of irc soon, you'll know what happened ;-)
12:00 moritz ;)
12:00 masak TimToady: did PDP-11 have pre- as well?
12:01 TimToady I think so, good for stack ops
12:02 TimToady pushes did --(
12:02 TimToady --(SP) and pops (SP)++
12:03 TimToady so stacks grew downward
12:03 masak as they should :)
12:04 TimToady which lets buffer overflows clobber your return address. :(
12:04 masak oops
12:05 masak maybe an argument for the harvard architeture after all
12:05 masak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_architecture
12:05 lambdabot Title: Harvard architecture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
12:05 moritz sunnavy: still there? *g*
12:06 pugs_svnbot r17099 | masak++ | [t/operators/auto.t]
12:06 pugs_svnbot r17099 | masak++ | * added tests for auto-decrementing of string variables
12:06 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17099
12:06 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17099 - Pugs - Trac
12:06 TimToady http://www.anvari.org/fortune/Laws_2/48​1_harvard-law-under-the-most-rigorously​-controlled-conditions-of-pressure-temp​erature-volume-humidity-and-other.html
12:06 lambdabot Title: Harvard Law Under the most rigorously controlled conditions of pressure, tempera ..., http://tinyurl.com/yrvkoj
12:08 masak TimToady: :)
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12:31 moritz is there a git repository clone of pugs anywhere?
12:38 masak http://www.ohloh.net/projects/3300
12:38 lambdabot Title: Pugs - Ohloh, the open source network
12:38 masak how come it says on that page that the Pugs project is mostly written in Perl?
12:40 wolverian it doesn't grok haskell
12:40 masak that explains it
12:40 masak who does, by the way? :)
12:40 moritz lol
12:40 wolverian try #haskell.. :)
12:40 moritz ghc and audreyt, I guess ;)
12:40 TimToady um, quite a few folks in this room...
12:41 masak true
12:41 wolverian just ask, don't ask to ask! (;
12:42 masak wolverian: is it just meta-asking that's not ok, or are questions like this fine?
12:43 wolverian I have a headache.
12:43 masak ehm, s/ or//
12:43 TimToady "Anything you can do I can do meta; I can do anything meta than you!"
12:45 thoughtpolice no you can't!
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12:45 TimToady not me. that was from "Annie get your pun!"
12:45 thoughtpolice moritz: me kinda sorta. :(
12:45 moritz thoughtpolice: do you have a clonable URL for me?
12:46 thoughtpolice moritz: i meant in relation to 'grok haskell'
12:46 thoughtpolice moritz: git has built in support for svn though
12:46 thoughtpolice man git-svn
12:46 moritz thoughtpolice: ah, ok
12:46 thoughtpolice you'll need perl libs for SVN though.
12:46 thoughtpolice but yeah it works
12:46 moritz thoughtpolice: I no about git-svn, but I don't want to stress feather's network more than necessary
12:46 thoughtpolice ah.
12:47 thoughtpolice in that case i don't know of a git repo. :(
12:47 TimToady .oO(Annie git your pun)
12:47 moritz maybe I should get a feather account to set one up
12:47 thoughtpolice moritz: i could probably see if the guy who hosts my website would let me use tailor and put a git repo there
12:48 thoughtpolice moritz: the thing is getting in contact with him (he lives in sweden, I live in texas. damn geography and time zones :( )
12:48 thoughtpolice if not i could just put one on my feather account
12:48 moritz thoughtpolice: feather would be preferable, because then the initial checkout is not such a pain for feather
12:49 thoughtpolice moritz: then we could just use my account.
12:50 masak TimToady: that was a bit meta, too
12:50 thoughtpolice I've been meaning to also use it to host some pugs haddock documentation, but right now the haddock comments all aren't valid (although it wouldn't take much effort to make them valid I assume)
12:51 masak there should be a direct link to the Wayback Machine on 404 pages
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12:52 thoughtpolice moritz: when Juerd's around I'll ask him about it.
12:53 moritz thoughtpolice: I'm sending him an email right now to get a feather account
12:53 thoughtpolice ah cool
12:53 moritz thoughtpolice: i guess it's handy after all
12:55 thoughtpolice moritz: a git repo would be nice i'd think. :>
12:55 thoughtpolice git rocks pretty nicely. and plus I think I found my new favorite command: git-bisect
12:56 moritz ;)
12:56 moritz binary search to trac regressions, right?
12:56 moritz s/trac/locate/
12:57 thoughtpolice binary search to find which commit blob introduced a bug
12:57 thoughtpolice which as you'd think is pretty useful, and using it is really really easy
12:58 thoughtpolice just mark a good commit and a bad one, and start a bisection. it'll put you at various points in the commit history and you just tell git whether that commit at that point was good or bad. eventually you'll narrow it down to the commit that gave you your bug
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13:04 sunnavy uh, after halt for another 3 times, I got the reason: my box was too hot to bare the tests. :-(
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13:08 szbalint sunnavy: it's always something simple isn't it? :)
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13:12 sunnavy szbalint: yeah. oh, my poor box
13:18 masak sunnavy: so once again it's confirmed: Perl 6 is hot
13:20 thoughtpolice @quote masak so once again it's confirmed: Perl 6 is hot
13:20 lambdabot No quotes for this person. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
13:20 thoughtpolice er
13:20 thoughtpolice @remember masak so once again it's confirmed: Perl 6 is hot
13:20 lambdabot Done.
13:20 thoughtpolice lambdabot insults hurt :(
13:21 masak thoughtpolice: thx. the quote sort of loses its punch outside of the context of sunnavy++'s box, though
13:22 diakopter thoughtpollice: re: "no you can't!" - "Yes, I can!" ;)
13:23 thoughtpolice diakopter: no you can't!
13:23 diakopter Yes I can!
13:23 thoughtpolice you win. :(
13:23 diakopter :P
13:23 diakopter too bad I don't know any more lyrics to that song
13:24 thoughtpolice i remember that part because I see commericals with it in them when I actually watch TV
13:24 thoughtpolice which is somewhat rare at best. tv really sucks. :(
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13:26 diakopter I had *thought* I'd already updated feather to 6.6.1... but I'll upgrade it now if not.
13:27 nperez joined #perl6
13:28 diakopter oh.  it's b/c someone put a 6.6 build in /usr/local/bin
13:29 diakopter yes, MS Keyboard 4000 rocks, in reply to whoever said that.
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13:31 diakopter k.... 1;0 root@feather:~# which ghc
13:31 diakopter 1;0 root@feather:~# ghc --version
13:31 diakopter The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.6.1
13:37 thoughtpolice diakopter: me
13:37 thoughtpolice yeah that's what I've heard about the 4000 (some say it's the best keyboard they've ever used)
13:37 thoughtpolice and at $40 I'd be willing to pay for that, I've heard a lot of praise
13:38 masak diakopter: IBM Model M keyboards rock too, but in an orthogonal way
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13:38 thoughtpolice i used to have a legendary IBM clicky
13:38 thoughtpolice unfortunately when we got rid of our old DOS system my father used it was also taken away. :(
13:39 diakopter I dunno if I agree with that.  The 4000 is kinda loud; I learned to type on a rusty typewriter and I'm a guitarist, so I tend to strike each key with about 80N.
13:39 thoughtpolice hah.
13:40 diakopter I had an old compaq ps/2 keyboard that was whisper quiet, even with that style of typing.
13:40 thoughtpolice well I'm mainly looking for something nice and ergonomic and I've heard lots of praise for the NE 4000
13:40 diakopter old meaning 1990
13:40 thoughtpolice I also need a chair too, because this one really sucks.
13:40 thoughtpolice any recommendations on that note?
13:42 thoughtpolice i've never had a really good keyboard or chair and everybody tells me it makes a world of difference. to be honest, I'm pretty sick of this chair/keyboard anyway.
13:43 diakopter I knew a guy during college who had a keyboard with the LHS and RHS on opposite sides of a vertical plane.
13:44 thoughtpolice i also probably need to switch to dvorak one of these days
13:44 franck____ joined #perl6
13:48 masak thoughtpolice: amen. me too
13:48 masak http://dvorak.nl/
13:48 lambdabot Title: dvorak.nl (aoeu.nl)
13:49 diakopter I still say someone should produce/sell a keyboard optimized for Perl 6. :)
13:49 diakopter sure, the market would be small, at first.
13:50 masak diakopter: design one and put the design notes online
13:50 masak somebody will be tempted enough to build one
13:51 masak and then the ball is rolling
13:55 moritz @seen sunnavy
13:55 lambdabot I saw sunnavy leaving #perl6 19m 20s ago, and .
13:56 masak I was never sure what lambdabot wanted to say after the "and"
13:56 moritz masak: probably the parting message, if there was one
13:57 diakopter I *hate* these keys: Shift, Ctrl, Alt.  Why can't the space bar be much smaller (or elsewhere) and let the thumbs operate Shift, Ctrl, Alt toward the center of the bottom row?  continually torquing the wrists or 4th fingers to reach Shift to Shift the number row, or to reach Ctrl, Alt, or Apple/Command/Windows is torturous.
14:00 * diakopter rants about people who use irc channels as their personal rant blogs.
14:00 masak .oO( modular rebuildable keyboards )
14:00 Patterner my space key is the same size as the enter key. and I use thumbs for ctrl, alt and backspace...
14:01 szbalint I simply have big hands. :)
14:01 diakopter Patterner: does your enter key touch the ;: key? or is the '" key there?
14:01 Patterner the enter key is surrounded by page down, page up, alt, ctrl and space
14:02 diakopter I haven't seen that keyboard
14:02 awwaiid I was just pondering about the use of ';' to separate statements and how it is so conveniently located under the pinky
14:02 moritz just a minute ago I read about a german startup where you can design and order your own keyboard layout...
14:02 awwaiid and what a waste that key is for non-code
14:02 Patterner diakopter: kinesis ergo elan
14:02 moritz and that's printed and attached as a USB keyboard
14:03 Patterner the russion optimus keyboard?
14:03 masak moritz: URL?
14:04 moritz masak: http://flippress.com/
14:05 moritz masak: I think they just started, I don't know if you can already order the keyboards
14:05 diakopter Patterner: *wow* those Kinesis ones look cool.
14:06 diakopter with a 3-pedal foot switch!
14:06 Juerd I have a Kinesis Ergo Contoured keyboard
14:06 Juerd I love the form factor, but the cherry switches are too heavy.
14:07 Juerd (require much force. I don't know if "heavy" is the proper term.)
14:07 diakopter I almost suspect that a pipe organ rank would enable faster typing than a keyboard.  and sound better.
14:09 masak :)
14:09 diakopter use v6::mixolydian;
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14:11 Patterner Juerd: i have no problem with mine
14:11 franck___ joined #perl6
14:11 diakopter of course, that would have to be editor-time enabled.
14:11 Juerd Patterner: Your hands are probably not as ruined as mine
14:12 Patterner probably... although I bought mine because I started to get joint aches...
14:20 thoughtpolice Patterner: help much?
14:21 Patterner yes. no problems since I got it.
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14:22 moritz thoughtpolice: if you have much space, you could use an old car seat
14:22 moritz thoughtpolice: they are designed so that you can sit quite a long time in them, and you can get them rather cheaply
14:23 moritz thoughtpolice: ... at your nearest scrap yard
14:26 [particle] Juerd: did you get my testimonial?
14:26 lambdabot [particle]: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:26 thoughtpolice moritz: hah
14:26 ashleyb joined #perl6
14:26 moritz thoughtpolice: I read that once on /. and it sounded like a good idea to me ;)
14:27 thoughtpolice i'd get some awesome seat covers then
14:27 [particle] thoughtpolice++ # the parrot team thanks you for smoking parrot
14:27 * [particle] showers &
14:27 thoughtpolice [particle]: np. i also did a smoke for the languages
14:27 [particle] yay
14:27 thoughtpolice on the regular tests you have 99.9% passing
14:27 thoughtpolice on the languages it was about 90% flat
14:27 thoughtpolice so pretty good. :)
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14:31 moritz the parrot team has pretty good QA ;)
14:31 moritz I think I never say a parrot smoke on my maschine with more than 15 tests failing
14:31 moritz and only once or twice one with more than 5
14:32 rdice moritz:  kid51 (Jim Keenan) and Andy have really buckled down on that over the past few months.  And good on 'em.
14:32 Juerd [particle]: That depends on your name :)
14:32 Juerd afk
14:32 thoughtpolice moritz: for the regular tests dfbsd only failed 7
14:32 moritz kid51++, Andy++
14:33 thoughtpolice (0.4.14)
14:33 thoughtpolice on the languages ~200 failed
14:33 thoughtpolice but it's getting there at least. :)
14:33 moritz and I have a rather common system ( debian linux on i386 )
14:33 thoughtpolice ouch
14:33 franck____ joined #perl6
14:34 thoughtpolice on fbsd 0.4.14 the languages only passed with 37% ok
14:35 thoughtpolice almost all of the lua, apl, tcl and regex tests failed.
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14:37 diakopter there are studies that conclude seat belt usage generally causes individuals to drive more daringly (because of the increased sense of "safety"), but without the increased alertness that more daring drivers utilize, thence more wrecks/injuries for seat belt users and their victims.
14:38 thoughtpolice people are dumb.
14:38 thoughtpolice really.
14:38 moritz thoughtpolice: FULL ACK ;)
14:38 * diakopter is a daring driver.
14:39 diakopter people are zombies
14:39 thoughtpolice getting eaten by zombies would suck. :(
14:40 * diakopter hopes the increased seat belts in parrot cause parrotfolks to be more daring (and alert). :)
14:40 moritz thoughtpolice: unless they are attractive female zombies ;)
14:41 diakopter (not that they are lacking in dare/alertness currently; I'm just trying to salvage the metaphor.
14:41 thoughtpolice in any case, I need to go mow my lawn and shower before it gets too blazingly hot outside and i turn into proverbial fried chicken
14:41 * thoughtpolice --status=away --reason=chores &> /dev/null &
14:43 [particle] diakopter: just cause we have seatbelts doesn't mean folks are using 'em. that's next. then airbags and abs. :)
14:43 [particle] Juerd: jerry.gay@gmail.com # i'll let you guess my name :)
14:44 [particle] great, now i'm hungry for some pfc. thanks, thoughtpolice.
14:44 Juerd [particle]: Then I got it :)
14:45 [particle] great
14:45 Juerd Indeed :)
14:48 [particle] i suspect frequency analysis of the perl 6 test suite would reveal that many sigiltwigil and other metacharacters belong in unshifted kb positions
14:48 [particle] how'd you like <shift-left index> := 4
14:50 moritz I want a foot pedal for $ and @
14:50 [particle] and ;
14:51 args you have only two feed, haven't you
14:51 moritz [particle]: that's better reachable
14:51 [particle] i'm heavily biased towards left-pinky-shift
14:51 [particle] i've probably used right-pinky-shift 20 times in 10 years
14:53 * moritz thinks about a second layer keyboard above the first one that can be operated by pushing the hands upwoards
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15:26 moritz can anybody over his/her p6 OO wisdom on that thread: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=627130
15:26 lambdabot Title: &#91;Perl 6&#93; Object methods on the fly?
15:27 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
15:28 masak interesting question
15:30 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
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18:27 rdice I've a perl6 technical/philosophical question I'd like some help with, in case anyone out there has insights I don't on something.
18:28 rdice What are references (well, captures) good for in p6?  I mean, when I think about what I use them for in p5 it's a) param passing of arrays and hashes to subs, and b) creating complex data structures.
18:29 rdice But in p6 we've got a) real param definitions for subs and b) "flattening" of arrays and hashes isn't the behaviour, so you can stick your arrays and hashes into each other directly.
18:29 rdice So what's left?  (Captures are cool for currying and co-routines and such I guess.)
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18:31 TimToady basically, whenever you need to delay binding an argument list
18:31 TimToady suppose you want to pass an argument list to a switch statement
18:32 TimToady in order to to serial matching rather than unordered matching like mmd does
18:32 TimToady mostly you get capture objects in wrappers that don't want to bind
18:33 TimToady sub wrappush (|$capture) { ... push |$capture; ... }
18:33 TimToady that doesn't need \ of course
18:34 TimToady Match objects are also derived from Capture
18:34 TimToady so you could fake a match with $/ := \($foo, $bar, :baz(42) )
18:35 TimToady (wouldn't have .from or .to attrs tho)
18:37 rdice Thanks TimToady.  
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18:39 rdice As suspected, references/captures exist and can be used in p6 as they are used in p5, but if you're using them that way then you're not doing idiomatic p6.  And the idiomatic p6 uses of captures barely even have analogs in p5.
18:41 TimToady they're almost like (shh!) anonymous typeglobs
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18:45 rdice That thought had occurred to me. :-)
18:46 TimToady which is another argument for not using them much. :)
18:52 rdice Captures seem to serve as an awesome "grand unified theory" of several underlying aspects of p6, to the point where they're basically an object of semantics made concrete, and bordering on implementation.  In that sense I'm astonished by their beauty.
18:52 rdice But as just another perl hacker, I'm still struggling to see how I might ever use them.  But I felt that way about closures once too.
18:52 rdice Maybe when I finally bootstrap myself into functional programming I'll have a renewed appreciation of what I might do with them.
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18:53 TimToady they're essentially the complement to the signature matching that is pervasive in FP
18:54 TimToady It's kinda strange to be able to say $foo ~~ $signature and not have a type for $foo
18:55 TimToady and my (...) := $foo is essentially the same
18:56 TimToady well, I guess it'd have to be |$foo there
18:57 ashleyb joined #perl6
19:00 TimToady dinner &
19:09 dduncan way off topic, but if there are any Mac users among you (as am I), or you know others who are, I recommend checking out this time-limited bundle deal (of non-free software) at http://www.macupdate.com/
19:09 lambdabot Title: MacUpdate: Macintosh Software & Games
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19:33 wolverian ?eval map { "$a -- $b" }, "a".."c", "d".."f"
19:33 evalbot_r17041 (" -- ", " -- ", " -- ", " -- ", " -- ", " -- ")
19:33 wolverian erm.
19:33 wolverian ?eval map { "$a -- $b" }, "a".."c" Z "d".."f"
19:33 evalbot_r17041 ((" -- ", "d"), (" -- ", "e"), (" -- ", "f"))
19:33 wolverian ?eval map -> $a, $b { "$a -- $b" }, "a".."c" Z "d".."f"
19:33 evalbot_r17041 (("a -- b", "d"), ("c -- ", "e"), (undef, "f"))
19:33 wolverian right. I don't get what's doing on here.
19:34 wolverian s/doing/going/
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19:39 Tene wolverian: you want $^a and $^b
19:39 Tene Or perhaps that's not the part you were confused about.
19:40 Tene ?eval 'a'..'c' Z 'd'..'f'
19:40 evalbot_r17041 (("a", "d"), ("b", "e"), ("c", "f"))
19:41 wolverian shouldn't map -> $a, $b { ... } work equally well?
19:42 wolverian (I tried the ^ variables in pugs shell, which failed to parse them altogether, so I didn't try them here.)
19:42 Tene Yes, it should.  I suspect a grouping issue.
19:42 Tene ?eval map -> $a, $b { "$a -- $b" }, ("a".."c" Z "d".."f")
19:42 evalbot_r17041 ("a d -- b e", "c f -- ")
19:43 wolverian heh, it's not doing structural expansion into the tuples
19:43 wolverian I suppose we want map -> [$a, $b]?
19:43 wolverian (or ()?)
19:43 Tene ?eval map -> [$a, $b] { "$a -- $b" }, ("a".."c" Z "d".."f")
19:43 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "[$"␤expecting subroutine parameters, trait or block
19:43 Tene ?eval map -> ($a, $b) { "$a -- $b" }, ("a".."c" Z "d".."f")
19:43 evalbot_r17041 ("a d -- b e", "c f -- ")
19:43 wolverian maybe that's the ticket, pugs just doesn't parse it yet.
19:49 thoughtpolice it seems as though what's happening is map doesn't seem to taking a tuple such as ('a','d') and being able to feed it appropriately into the given sub
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20:15 diakopter ?eval map -> ([$a, $b]) { "$a -- $b" }, ("a".."c" Z "d".."f")
20:15 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "[$"␤expecting formal parameter or ")"
20:16 wolverian good try :)
20:16 diakopter ?eval map -> ($a => $b) { "$a -- $b" }, ("a".."c" Z "d".."f")
20:16 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "$a"␤expecting ")"
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20:36 rhr ?eval map -> $a { "$a[0] -- $a[1]" }, ("a".."c" Z "d".."f")
20:36 evalbot_r17041 ("a -- d", "b -- e", "c -- f")
20:36 rhr I think -> [$a, $b] should work
20:36 wolverian right.
20:37 TimToady Z is not supposed to add [...] by default
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20:37 wolverian I misread S29 then, I think
20:37 TimToady S29 might be wrong
20:38 wolverian would it be map ..., $ .. Z ... then?
20:38 wolverian (that is, if I really wanted the tuples)
20:38 wolverian (for some unspecified reason)
20:38 TimToady I think you want @@ or slice
20:38 TimToady or just take them two at a time from the flat list
20:39 wolverian ah, right.
20:39 wolverian hm. from S03: $ map { $_, $_*2 }, ^4   # [\(0,0),\(1,2),\(2,4),\(3,6)]
20:40 wolverian that confused me. :)
20:40 TimToady only one arg there, but spits out captures
20:40 wolverian right.
20:40 wolverian what's the name of the [] there? capture? reference?
20:41 TimToady it's an array
20:41 wolverian good.
20:41 TimToady a list in scalar context makes one
20:41 TimToady and inside of [] provides @ context, so flattens
20:42 wolverian Z makes me want an operator version of map
20:42 wolverian a la mathematica
20:43 TimToady which side does the closure go on?
20:43 wolverian mathematica's goes on the right side
20:43 wolverian I was thinking the other way around, I think
20:43 TimToady @array.map: {...} works
20:43 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
20:43 wolverian maybe have two of them ;)
20:44 wolverian right. it was just for consistency in map ..., ... Z ..., which is not a very good motivation.
20:45 TimToady hmm, yeah, Z eats lists on both sides
20:46 TimToady well, {...} for ... Z ... is supposed to work the same eventually
20:46 TimToady and ... Z ... ==> map {...}
20:47 wolverian good point
20:48 wolverian multi zipwith (&f, *@ls) { { .reduce(&f) } for @@ zip @ls } # look right?
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20:53 TimToady I think zip @ls is a noop
20:54 wolverian hm
20:54 wolverian makes sense
20:54 wolverian zip @@ls?
20:54 * wolverian reads
20:55 TimToady yes, if @ls is a list of something listy
20:55 wolverian well, the *@ls was meant to imply that, though I realise I didn't specify it explicitly
20:55 wolverian (...surely the type inferencer will do this for me! or so)
20:55 wolverian been doing haskell.
20:56 TimToady the trouble with a really smart compiler is that it can tend to require the programmer to be just as smart to outsmart it
20:56 wolverian I don't need to outsmart haskell, I just need to understand what it's doing. which is not a trivial task, indeed.
20:56 TimToady heh, I was just sitting next to Simon Peyton-Jones at dinner...
20:57 wolverian and the space-time continuum didn't have an epileptic seizure? hm.
20:58 TimToady nope.  though one of the other hardcore FP folks here told him earlier today that Haskell is the Perl of FP.  :)
20:58 TimToady meaning somewhat accretive, I believe.
20:58 thorat at least the way Oleg Kiselyov uses it :)\
20:59 wolverian ghc is accretive, at least
20:59 wolverian the haskell standard is pretty conservative (boring)
20:59 lumi So ghc is the perl of FP?
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20:59 TimToady maybe of fp
21:00 SamB why is it the perl? because Baughn doesn't like the syntax?
21:01 wolverian there isn't much syntax to speak of, though the lack itself can certainly be hateful
21:01 TimToady I suspect it has more to do with trying to solve all the problems of the world.
21:01 wolverian I particularly don't like how everything in haskell looks the same.
21:01 wolverian perl does this much better.
21:01 TimToady I think we're better at conserving identifiers too
21:02 thorat (we're back to chipped fingernails in oatmeal metaphor)
21:02 TimToady little of this for vs forM business
21:02 wolverian except haskell doesn't have the fingernails...
21:02 TimToady they're invisible
21:02 thorat right
21:02 wolverian TimToady, right, though perl doesn't have that division, to be fair.
21:02 SamB TimToady: wth is for?
21:03 TimToady I meant map vs mapM
21:03 SamB oh, that
21:03 TimToady adding monads tends to increase the alphabet soup
21:03 thorat (I guess I meant simile)
21:03 SamB well, they have rather different types
21:04 wolverian I thought ghc 6.6 added for/forM, but, yeah.
21:04 TimToady admittedly, inheriting from different classes in OO tends to use up names too
21:04 wolverian (being just flip . map)
21:04 SamB I mean mapM f = sequence . map f, doesn't it?
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21:04 wolverian SamB, that's the division... sequence being the monad
21:05 TimToady but the fact that most everything is definitional means you have to name a lot more definitions
21:06 wolverian namespaces would work too
21:06 wolverian M.map instead of mapM
21:06 TimToady but maybe I'm just going crosseyed at all the CamelCase
21:06 wolverian (though M. is usually used for Data.Map, so...)
21:07 SamB M is like a sigil at the wrong end of the variable ;-P
21:07 TimToady so Haskell is really the BASIC of FP  :)
21:07 SamB heh
21:08 wolverian hm, how about enforcing a sigil for monads
21:08 SamB I thought that was called Visual Basic
21:08 wolverian $monadAction instead of monadAction
21:08 wolverian I'm sure that'd fly... (except $ is taken)
21:08 SamB $ is already taken
21:08 SamB twice!
21:08 wolverian no $$ :)
21:09 SamB also, what are the typing rules for your proposal?
21:10 wolverian I don't know if it has any that differ from the status quo, though I see how it would apply to uniqueness typing too
21:10 wolverian visually anyway
21:10 meppl good night
21:10 wolverian please don't tell anyone I proposed sigils for haskell though, I'm sure they'd kill me.
21:10 SamB I won't, because your proposal is incomplete ;-P
21:11 Tene /join #haskell
21:11 wolverian I'm there.
21:12 Tene I was joking suggesting that I was going to /join #haskell and mention what you just jokingly asked not be mentioned.
21:12 wolverian ah.
21:13 wolverian TimToady, what'd be the right way to mark the zipwith as operating on a list of listy things?
21:13 wolverian lazily, I suppose..
21:14 TimToady @@ should do it
21:15 TimToady or zip([;] @ls) in a pinch
21:16 TimToady maybe even @ls.zip
21:16 wolverian I meant exposing that to zipwith's users
21:16 wolverian but that's a good one, hm.
21:17 TimToady well, any zippy thing probably wants to have a slicey interface that separates lists with ;
21:18 wolverian right
21:18 diakopter "implicit things need explicit (possible) denotations"?
21:19 TimToady it really depends on whether the typical use case is zip(1,2,3; "a","b","c") or zip [;] @foo
21:20 TimToady generally it's probably zip somefunc()
21:20 wolverian I think so
21:21 wolverian I don't get what [;] @foo does
21:21 TimToady which currently requires zip @@ somefunc(), which might get tiresome
21:21 TimToady all reductions are defined syntactically
21:21 TimToady so equiv to @foo[0] ; @foo[1] ; etc
21:22 wolverian agh, sorry. I don't get what ; does. ;) I'll read.
21:22 TimToady it separates lists, for bindings that care
21:23 wolverian hrm
21:23 wolverian that makes me think it turns 1..3 into ([1],[2],[3])
21:25 wolverian now I found the section in S9
21:26 TimToady it's mostly for multidimensional subscripts
21:27 wolverian hm, it carries the context into the array
21:27 wolverian yeah, I can see me putting @@ everywhere, just to make sure..
21:31 wolverian or just not using ;
21:32 TimToady yes, there's always the [[],[],[]] approach, which many languages take
21:33 wolverian or the ; approach, where ; is always chunks
21:33 TimToady we're just doing that lazily depending on context
21:34 TimToady because p5 programmers will expect flat
21:34 TimToady esp from things like map
21:34 TimToady not to mention return
21:35 wolverian could it be a pragma then?
21:35 TimToady possibly
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21:35 TimToady all functions that return 1,2,3 would end up returning [1,2,3]
21:35 TimToady instead of a Capture
21:36 wolverian hrm, no. that's ugly.
21:36 wolverian ?eval my @foo = [1,2,3]
21:36 evalbot_r17041 [[1, 2, 3],]
21:36 wolverian right.
21:36 TimToady there's much to be said for lazy binding
21:37 wolverian in principle I like it. in practice, I'm worried about the extra responsibility on the receiving end
21:37 TimToady well, if we made it only a receiving end pragma
21:37 TimToady then it would do @@ map for you
21:37 TimToady (by default)
21:37 TimToady and you'd have to @ it explicitly to get flat, I guess
21:38 TimToady and return would still just return a capture
21:38 TimToady that seems saner with foreign funcs
21:38 wolverian yeah, that's my expectation of a sane language, I think.
21:38 wolverian derived from haskell, I suppose, but it's pretty generic.
21:39 TimToady alternate seems to be two versions of map, two versions of gather, etc.
21:40 TimToady which drives it towards contextual in PerlThink
21:40 wolverian so captures are perl6's monads
21:41 TimToady hmm
21:41 TimToady I'd think the monads are more like the binding contexts
21:42 TimToady the captures are the enforcees, not the enforcers
21:42 wolverian well, yes, if you think about it.. but I was making a point about the dualism.
21:42 wolverian (thinking is hard)
21:44 wolverian I suppose a true haskeller would be scared of runtime context operations
21:44 TimToady likely
21:45 wolverian it's a bit iffy to me, but then again, I can think of it as implicit typeclass operations
21:45 TimToady monads are mostly about escaping from pure value semantics, which essentially means how do you discipline something that is not a value, that is a container of values
21:45 wolverian capture would be an instance of all that they can transform into.
21:46 wolverian was that a question? :)
21:49 TimToady it's the binding that decides the eventual container
21:50 TimToady I suppose print() is how you bind values to the IO monad.  :)
21:50 wolverian well, right
21:50 wolverian same thing in haskell, except the binding is decided at compile time
21:50 wolverian and there can only be one :)
21:51 TimToady well, a filehandle is just a lifted IO, maybe
21:51 TimToady but yes about compile time
21:52 wolverian sleep time
21:52 wolverian cheers
21:52 wolverian filehandles as monads is a weird thought
21:52 wolverian the monad api is incredibly flexible
21:52 TimToady likewise on sleep
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22:19 thorat hi
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