Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:41 thorat that's a spammer that's been kicked from #vim, #haskell, #lisp for example
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03:00 spinclad diakopter++
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05:52 moritz re
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07:01 renormalist Good morning. Finally, my article about Pugs appeared in the german IT magazine iX. With some luck, we get some more audience in the next few days. At least I hope so. So "*Oh, behave! Yeah, yeah baby, yeah!*" :-)
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07:03 moritz renormalist++
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07:05 torz hey all :D
07:06 moritz hey torz ;)
07:08 moritz btw the iX is one of the more advanced IT magazines, well known for its quality
07:08 moritz although half of the topics are not interesting for me
07:09 renormalist same for me, anyway it seems to have a broad audience, exactly what we need for the advocacy.
07:10 Aankhen`` 'Grats, renormalist. :-)
07:10 Aankhen`` renormalist++
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07:16 renormalist I just see there is also an URL for the article available: http://www.heise.de/ix/artikel/2007/08/127/
07:18 moritz renormalist: is that the full article?
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07:18 moritz it looks like ;)
07:22 renormalist i looks like
07:22 renormalist s/i/it/
07:29 moritz renormalist: I'm making a bit of advertisment for your article: http://perl-6.de/blog/archives/13-​iX-Artikel-zu-Pugs-und-Perl-6.html
07:29 lambdabot Title: iX-Artikel zu Pugs und Perl 6 - perl-6.de Blog, http://tinyurl.com/yqudlv
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07:35 renormalist moritz: thanks
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07:44 renormalist moritz: can you correct the small typo in my name, there is one  "n" more than needed :-)
07:45 moritz renormalist: of course, sorry ;)
07:46 moritz improper don't-use of copy&paste ;)
07:47 moritz done
07:47 renormalist npnp. thx.
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08:51 pmurias moritz: ping
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08:52 moritz pmurias: pong
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08:53 moritz or should I say "5 bytes from moritz.lenz: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=1min " ;)
08:54 pmurias moritz: you forgot to print the statistics ;)
08:54 moritz pmurias: which?
08:55 pmurias 10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9068ms
08:55 pmurias for google.com
08:55 moritz -- moritz.lenz ping statistics ---
08:55 moritz 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 72s
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08:55 pmurias that's better :)
08:56 moritz at your command ;)
08:58 pmurias i looked into the make info page, and am wandering if $(patsubst lib/%,lib5/%,$(wildcard lib/*)) wouldn't be a better way of generating the list of files to make
08:59 moritz it probably would
08:59 moritz I'm by no means an expert in makefiles, and took the first cludgy workaround that I could find
09:00 moritz so please feel free to improve anything you want
09:00 pmurias neither am i
09:02 moritz diakopter: are you running an unmodified version of evalbot? with HEAD pugs?
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09:13 pugs_svnbot r17100 | pmurias++ | kp6:explicit file list in Makefile changed to wildcards
09:13 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17100
09:13 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17100 - Pugs - Trac
09:14 moritz pmurias++
09:16 pmurias i hope i didn't brake anything ;)
09:18 moritz I'm recompiling it right now
09:19 Aankh|Clone pmurias: Brake stuff all you want, just make sure you don't break anything!
09:20 moritz ok, "make clean", "make" and "make test" worked
09:20 moritz Aankh|Clone: "as long as your brakes work.." ;)
09:24 Aankh|Clone changed the nick to Aankhen``
09:35 bloonix how can I pass a scalarref? in perl 5 I would say "$foo = \$bar" but how in perl 6 ?
09:35 Aankhen`` What are you passing a scalarref for?
09:35 Juerd Perl 6 does not have references.
09:36 Juerd It has captures for similar functionality.
09:36 Juerd And that still works with \
09:37 bloonix Aankhen``: for Params::Validate::GLOBREF
09:37 Aankhen`` Er, you're porting P::V to Perl 6?
09:37 bloonix no, I'm learning ;)
09:38 moritz Aankhen``: no, he wants to use a p5 module that uses P::V
09:38 Aankhen`` Oh.
09:38 bloonix I want to port my own modules to p6 and I'm using P:V
09:38 Aankhen`` I'm not sure there is an equivalent to GLOBREF.
09:38 moritz why should there be one?
09:38 bloonix I try the following:
09:38 bloonix my $log = Log::Handler.new(filename => $*OUT);
09:39 bloonix and P:V say its a glob and not a globref
09:39 Aankhen`` moritz: Perhaps for this. ;-)
09:39 wolverian bloonix, well, try \$*OUT, then.
09:39 moritz Aankhen``: (backwards compatibility)--
09:39 wolverian though this is a pretty nasty case of backwards compatibility. globs--
09:39 Aankhen`` (backwards compatibility)-- # indeed
09:39 moritz ?eval \$*OUT
09:39 evalbot_r17041 \undef
09:39 bloonix my $log = Log::Handler.new(filename => \$*OUT);
09:39 bloonix The 'filename' parameter ("*pugs::guts::FH") to Log::Handler::new was a 'glob', which is not one of the allowed types: scalar globref
09:39 moritz ?eval (\$*OUT).WHAT
09:40 evalbot_r17041 ::Scalar
09:40 moritz ?eval (\$*OUT).perl
09:40 evalbot_r17041 "\\undef"
09:40 Aankhen`` moritz: Perl 5 probably doesn't feel the same way. :-(
09:40 moritz Aankhen``: I know
09:41 bloonix moritz: I will port my mods on the server where pugs is installed
09:42 bloonix piece for piece
09:42 moritz bloonix: you are welcome to add them to the pugs repository under ext/
09:43 moritz bloonix: do you already have a commit bit?
09:43 bloonix if you give me hint what I can do with this bit :)
09:43 bloonix a hint
09:43 moritz bloonix: you can modify the pugs svn repository
09:44 moritz bloonix: should I send you one to your cpan email address?
09:46 bloonix better to my privat mail address
09:46 bloonix jonny.schulz
09:46 moritz at bloonix.de?
09:46 bloonix yes
09:47 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
09:47 moritz bloonix: email sent. It's a custom to add yourself to AUTHORS to test if the commit bit works
09:50 moritz ?eval $*OUT.say: "foo"
09:50 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[foo␤] Bool::True
09:50 moritz ?eval $*ERR.say: "foo"
09:50 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[foo␤] Bool::True
09:50 moritz so evalbot joins STDERR and STDOUT it seems
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10:01 bloonix pugs cannot handle pod?
10:06 TimToady what do you mean by "handle"?
10:07 bloonix =pod_begin =cut
10:07 TimToady should handle that currently
10:08 TimToady though we'd like to switch to Pod6 at some point
10:08 TimToady and kill off =cut
10:08 bloonix oh, it runs
10:10 Aankhen`` KILL THE CUTS
10:15 bloonix ?eval sub foo { my $bar = shift; say "foo $bar"; }; foo('bar');
10:16 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "$bar"␤expecting "=", context, ":" or "("
10:20 TimToady hmm
10:21 TimToady ?eval sub foo { my $bar = shift @_; say "foo $bar"; }; foo('bar');
10:21 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[foo bar␤] Bool::True
10:21 TimToady shift doesn't default in pugs
10:21 TimToady and maybe not in p6
10:21 TimToady not sure why it got that error message though
10:21 TimToady parsec is mysterious
10:23 bloonix okay I should better write shift @_ ?
10:24 TimToady ?eval sub foo ($bar) { say "foo $bar"; }; foo('bar');
10:24 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[foo bar␤] Bool::True
10:24 TimToady you should better write that
10:25 bloonix hmmm my problem is that I dont know how much arguments are passed to the sub. I know only that the first argument is the object
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10:25 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo ($bar, *@baz) { say "foo: $bar, followed by @baz[]"; }; foo("bar", "baz", "quux", "etc.")
10:25 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[foo: bar, followed by baz quux etc.␤] Bool::True
10:25 TimToady method foo ($self: *@args) { ... }
10:26 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo ($bar, *@baz) { "foo: $bar, followed by @baz[]"; }; foo("bar", "baz", "quux", "etc.")
10:26 evalbot_r17041 "foo: bar, followed by baz quux etc."
10:26 Aankhen`` Yeh, if it's a method, it should *be* a method, not a sub. ^_^
10:32 TimToady sure, but maybe it's just a multi
10:33 bloonix the simple construct "sub foo { my $self = shift; $self->do_something; }
10:33 bloonix okay, I think I have to read a intoduction first
10:36 TimToady OO is in S12.  You might want to skim the earlier S's first ignoring fine details to avoid bogging down
10:36 TimToady there aren't really many intros that get as far as S12
10:36 bloonix I read the german p6 tutorial of moritz
10:37 bloonix but where can I found the S* documentations?
10:38 TimToady http://perlcabal.org/syn/
10:38 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
10:39 TimToady if you don't remember that, just go to pugscode.org and follow the Specs Coverage link
10:39 TimToady (what I did)
10:41 bloonix I pushed it into my bookmarks :)
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10:41 bloonix my first Perl6 bookmark folder ;)
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11:30 torz yawn
11:30 torz evening all
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12:02 pmurias TimToady: is this valid p6: [ $x1, $y1 ] := [ $x, $y ]?
12:03 TimToady not unless you put the left side into a signature, then it's just unimplemented
12:04 TimToady only simple vars may happen outside :() or we can't parse it
12:04 TimToady (without backtracking)
12:12 pmurias :([$x1,$y1]) := [$x,$y] is equivalent to $x1 := $x;$y1 := $y?
12:13 TimToady generally with a my on the front, but yes
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12:13 TimToady with my you can drop the :
12:13 TimToady (or any declarator)
12:14 pmurias my [$x1,$y1] := [$x,$y] ?
12:14 TimToady that might fly
12:14 TimToady not currently grammatical
12:15 TimToady my ($x1,$y1) := $x,$y works
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12:17 pmurias ?eval my ($x1,$y1) := 1,2
12:17 evalbot_r17041 Error: Wrong number of binding parameters: 1 actual, 2 expected
12:17 pmurias ?eval my ($x1,$y1) := [1,2]
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12:17 evalbot_r17041 Error: Wrong number of binding parameters: 1 actual, 2 expected
12:17 pmurias ?eval my ($x1,$y1) := (1,2)
12:17 evalbot_r17041 (\1, \2)
12:18 TimToady looks like the right side of := is a scalar context when it shouldn't be
12:18 TimToady though doesn't explain why parens help
12:19 TimToady some kind of fossilized semantics, I think
12:19 TimToady I think the parens are making a kind of capture, which shouldn't require the parens
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12:23 masak what's the correct place nowadays for tests against known pugs bugs?
12:23 TimToady If it's a bug that any implementation could fall into, it's not a "pugs bug"
12:24 TimToady and should probably go under the functional category
12:24 pmurias thanks that clears my doubts, me & fglock were not sure before if v6/v6-KindaPerl6/t/mp6/06-bind-array.t was valid p6, and i wanted to make sure before looking into trying to implement it in kp6
12:24 masak TimToady: it's just that there's always that queasy feeling of adding a test a posteriori
12:25 TimToady uh, there's still a lot more preterior than posterior in Perl 6
12:25 TimToady :)
12:25 TimToady at least in terms of testing
12:25 TimToady we currently have 18k tests; I estimate we need 40k eventually
12:26 TimToady I expect some of those 40k to come in after 6.0.0, I should clarify
12:27 pmurias ?eval my $x1,$y1,$x,$y;:([$x1,$y1]) := [$x,$y]
12:27 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "$x1"␤expecting signature or ")"
12:27 pmurias ?eval my ($x1,$y1,$x,$y);:([$x1,$y1]) := [$x,$y]
12:27 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "$x1"␤expecting signature or ")"
12:27 pmurias ?eval my ($x1,$y1,$x,$y);
12:27 evalbot_r17041 (\undef, \undef, \undef, \undef)
12:28 TimToady :([]) isn't impl afaik
12:28 TimToady doesn't work in a sub sig, anyway
12:30 szbalint http://dev.pugscode.org/query?status=new&statu​s=assigned&status=reopened&order=priority - the problems described in these tickets still need fixing right?
12:30 lambdabot Title: Custom Query - Pugs - Trac, http://tinyurl.com/2d9yt4
12:33 szbalint I'm asking because most of the tickets were created quite a long time ago
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12:35 TimToady on the tortoise/hare continuum, most of our managers are hares
12:35 TimToady maybe we need to recruit a tortoise into management
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12:39 moritz re
12:44 integral szbalint: quite a few of those still seem current
12:45 TimToady lunch &
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13:02 bloonix ?eval my $x = <2 3 4>; say "foo" if $x ~~ Array;
13:03 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[foo␤] Bool::True
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13:14 pugs_svnbot r17101 | moritz++ | added sub prototypes to evalbot
13:14 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17101
13:14 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17101 - Pugs - Trac
13:16 bloonix the perl 6 documentation is hard to read... a lot of expressions...
13:16 bloonix TimToady: do you like to write it in german? *g*
13:16 masak bloonix: which document are you referring to?
13:16 bloonix S02
13:17 masak bloonix: the synopses are intentionally compact
13:18 masak bloonix: you should try the blog "Dive into Perl 6" for a softer introduction
13:18 masak bloonix: also the exegeses, although they are a bit outdated, I think
13:18 masak bloonix: also the pugs test suite, it helps me a lot to make matters concrete
13:19 bloonix masak: I was just joking. I will read it and in this time dict.leo.org is my best way to understand it :)
13:19 diakopter moritz: you asked about evalbot?  it's running from stock svn; why?
13:19 moritz diakopter: because for me it complained about not deklared subs
13:19 [particle1 changed the nick to [particle]
13:20 moritz diakopter: on_invite and on_privsmg where not predeclared prior to r17101
13:20 moritz and I get an error on connecting:
13:20 moritz » Error in connection to irc.perl.org:6667 ("Closing Link: ds80-237-200-60.dedicated.hosteurope.de (Invalid username [~<SubBlock])").
13:21 bloonix masak: do you have a link for me to "Dive into ..."
13:21 diakopter bloonix: see planet.pugscode.org
13:22 diakopter it's got links to recent articles, of which that one is one, I think.
13:22 bloonix diakopter: thx
13:22 moritz and the direct link is http://diveintoperl6.blogspot.com/
13:22 lambdabot Title: Dive into Perl 6
13:23 diakopter moritz: re evalbot
13:23 moritz diakopter: does evalbot work for you when you don't run evalbot-loop but evalbot.pl directly?
13:23 diakopter haven't tried it
13:23 * diakopter checks to see where it *actually* runs from
13:24 bloonix planet.pugscode.org is written for blind persons
13:24 diakopter here's my TODO list for feather, btw; fyi to whomever:
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13:25 moritz bloonix: what makes you think so?
13:25 masak bloonix: dissatisfied with the layout?
13:25 masak I kinda like it
13:25 bloonix the front page has a font size of 6em or more :)
13:26 masak bloonix: resize it in your browser
13:26 bloonix it makes no changes
13:26 bloonix the letters overriding itself
13:26 diakopter 1. get a build of perl6-on-parrot prepared for new evalbot.
13:26 masak bloonix: that _is_ bad
13:27 diakopter 2. Poll #perl6 for a shortname for perl6-on-parrot (?pugs "hi from pugs"..... ?p6prt "hi from parrot"  for example..... ?kp6 "hi from kp6-on-mp6-on-perl5")
13:28 bloonix http://www.bloonix.de/img/img.gif
13:28 bloonix ^^
13:29 masak looks like it could be an opera issue...
13:29 moritz it looks fine with firefox
13:29 masak and safari
13:31 bloonix yes, firefox looks fine :/
13:38 diakopter feather todo paused; brb
13:45 moritz diakopter: does feather run an identd server?
13:49 diakopter I think it might've... but I shut down xinetd a couple of months ago, which it would've run under, and no one complained. :) why, does it need to be turned back on?
13:49 moritz diakopter: no, I'm just wondering why my evalbot doesn't connect
13:50 diakopter possibly there's already a username on that network 'evalbot'
13:50 moritz it says ("Closing Link: ds80-237-200-60.dedicated.hosteurope.de (Invalid username [~<SubBlock])").
13:50 moritz no, I connected as p6eval
13:50 moritz adn taht <SubBLock looks suspicious to me
13:50 diakopter it shows you're already connected
13:51 diakopter 08:50:34 [perl] -!- p6eval [moritz@ds80-237-200-60.dedicated.hosteurope.de]
13:51 diakopter 08:50:34 [perl] -!-  was      : <SubBlock(<anon>)>
13:51 diakopter but yeah that username is flawed
13:51 diakopter are you sure it didn't fork to the background and it still running?
13:52 pmurias is anybody working on a kp6 evalbot?
13:52 moritz it's in the foreground and still running
13:52 diakopter pmurias: hey, that was #3 on my list
13:53 diakopter pmurias: do you want to do it?  my plan was just to add another step after the pugs evalbot step (because we still need pugs to handle the "safe" delineation), and output the proper backend's result, depending on which of the 3 requested it
13:53 pmurias whats #1 & #2 :)?
13:53 moritz pmurias: backlog ;)
13:53 diakopter backlog 25 lines
13:53 Juerd I want :w in perl5 regexes!
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13:54 pmurias k :)
13:55 diakopter pmurias: (and everyone else): please do *not* take this todo list to mean that you shouldn't start any of those things... I'm sure anyone's implementation of all of that stuff would be better than my (first) ones...
13:55 diakopter so please please please go ahead and start...
13:56 moritz Juerd: any news regarding my feather account?
13:57 Juerd moritz: Yes, you're getting it but I can't reach my administration right now
13:57 moritz Juerd: ok, thanks
13:58 Juerd moritz: I've created the account for you; info follows
13:58 Juerd moritz: Your password is changeme. Change it now, please.
13:58 moritz Juerd: logging in...
13:59 moritz Juerd: changed ;)
14:00 pmurias diakopter: are you sure using pugs for determining if the code is safe is a valid security step?
14:00 diakopter pmurias: it's as good as we've got
14:01 diakopter pmurias: do you have any other ideas for creating that distinction?
14:02 pmurias looking at buubot might be a good idea(or whatever it's called)
14:03 diakopter bb2, yeah
14:03 diakopter heh
14:03 moritz @tell fglock does kp6 support any "unsafe" operations yet? eg ones that might be harmful if run as an evalbot
14:03 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:03 * diakopter imagines running all the generated Perl5 code through bb2's unsafe detector
14:03 diakopter I'm sure there'd be false positives
14:04 moritz does parrot implement any safe/unsafe distinction?
14:04 * diakopter no se
14:05 pmurias mortiz: it does
14:05 moritz could somebody with root rights on feather please install 'git-svn'?
14:05 moritz pmurias: cool
14:06 pmurias why is unsafeness cool? ;)
14:06 moritz then _somebody_ just has to write a fairly complete PIR emitter
14:06 moritz pmurias: it's not, but being able to tell if something is unsafe is cool
14:07 pmurias by the way kp6 supports sdl see: examples/sdl/simple.pl
14:10 pmurias moritz: it does meant kp6 does support unsafe operations, not that parrot can distinguish safe ones
14:12 moritz pmurias: ok, then I misunderstood it
14:14 pmurias it's my fault ;)
14:14 diakopter Juerd: i'm doing the git thing, unless you already are...
14:15 diakopter well I suppose you can't be since the package db wasn't locked :)
14:15 Juerd diakopter: I'm not; I tried but ran into versioning/dependency trouble
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14:17 * diakopter fixed that...
14:17 diakopter moritz: git-svn is there
14:17 moritz diakopter: thanks
14:18 Juerd moritz: An evalbot could be chrooted, ulimit'ed, throttled, etc.
14:19 diakopter and even limited to a single working directory inside that chroot...
14:20 moritz aye
14:21 diakopter pmurias: I'd really like to port the evalbot to a plugin inside of the dalek bot I'm working on... along with all the svn and infobot and lambdabot functions.  It runs in perl 5, and uses much fewer resources than pugs (as far as I can tell, I mean), and the concurrency system is event-based.  I'd like to put everything there because of the integrated authentication/trust system.
14:21 diakopter and b/c it would use 1/10 the resources
14:22 moritz diakopter: sounds like a very good idea ;)
14:22 diakopter I know it's a step backwards from the Perl 6 svnbot.pl and such
14:22 diakopter in a sense
14:23 moritz but it's convenient ;)
14:23 diakopter the other (big) benefit is that dalek's base system is already multi-network.
14:24 szbalint it'll just exterminate all of us
14:24 szbalint :)
14:24 diakopter so a single bot would provide the same eval, svn, infobot, and ****flood protection on #parrot and here, at least in my imagination
14:24 diakopter szbalint: indeed!
14:24 diakopter EX TERM IN ATE, right?
14:25 szbalint Aye
14:25 moritz diakopter: yes. And we want evalbot in #perlde and #perl6de on irc.perl.org ;)
14:25 diakopter anyway, anyone please voice any objections to that plan... I won't be defensive! ;)
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14:26 moritz diakopter: "IT'S A SECURITY RISK" - are you happy now?
14:26 diakopter moritz: heh. do explain, if you mean it.
14:26 moritz diakopter: I'd just be over-paranoid with evalbot
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14:27 moritz of course there is no special risk if done properly, but feels like something that should be separated from the rest
14:28 moritz diakopter: if you have an evalbot plugin that runs in chroot and the communication is done through a socket, then I don't have any objections
14:28 moritz or something along these lines
14:31 diakopter well sure.  chrooted is the way to go. All the chroot needs is a nice perl5, subversion, the build dependencies of pugs, parrot, and kp6....
14:32 diakopter I was gonna put the whole ircbot in the chroot
14:32 moritz ok
14:32 diakopter sockets shmockets :P
14:33 moritz the git repository is somewhere at 3800 atm
14:33 moritz r3800 I mean
14:35 diakopter Juerd: any thoughts/comments on that ircbot plan?
14:36 moritz diakopter: if you need a server for it, I (or bloonix) could help out
14:36 moritz diakopter: or if you want to experiment on it, without messing with feather
14:38 Juerd diakopter: Yes. Keep things that run outside the chroot (like the bot itself?) out of the chroot
14:39 Juerd (Because they might be altered)
14:39 Juerd It's like the common rule that says "don't make things that root will execute writable for non-root"
14:39 diakopter Juerd: hm, ok.
14:40 Juerd diakopter: A process can chroot itself :)
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14:40 diakopter or of course, chroot (evals) inside chroot (bot)
14:40 Juerd diakopter: Or you can start a process that chroots, and THEN starts the bot inside
14:40 Juerd But I think it's sane to start one process PER eval.
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14:40 Juerd Because then you can ulimit it, kill it when it takes too long, etc.
14:40 diakopter Juerd: ok
14:41 Juerd And if you do that, you can leave all the rest outside the chroot I think
14:41 * diakopter continues with spewing the todo list
14:42 diakopter #3 Get all that bot stuff consolidated (recruit helpers for it)
14:43 diakopter #4 Set up carnavon to provide svn history/analysis
14:44 diakopter #5 Set up the specification XHTMLs (and PODs) to be indexed and searchable via http and via the ircbot by literal exact phrases.
14:45 diakopter #6 Set up implementations of SVN::Log and SVN::Log::Index to provide searchable commit logs.  Hopefully integrate with the carnavon implementation.  or reimplement carnavon. :)
14:47 diakopter #7 Set up cabie on feather to coordinate distributed autobuilds of pugs, parrot, and kp6.  Note that this would not replace the smoke server(s), but instead merely provide records of build successes/failures.  Research integrating with the smoking system.
14:48 diakopter #7 continued - anyone can volunteer their machines to do the autobuilds/submissions; cabie coordinates it all.
14:49 diakopter #7 continuted: this would also be a step toward audreyt's TODO (long ago) of getting nightly builds of pugs downloadable for the major architectures/OSes.
14:51 diakopter #8 Set up subissue and a Jifty (or WebGUI if I'm the one doing it) frontend to it.  subissue uses a precommit svn hook to catch issue #s in svn commit logs, and stores the actual tickets/trackers in the same svn repository, but because it's a precommit hook, does not "duplicate" revisions.
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14:53 diakopter #9 As part of the specification searching/indexing, set up a "keyword" index, where (probably not *in* the Snn themselves, but merged in via smartlinks) Perl 6's keywords would be listed hierarchically (perhaps by initial character) in some sort of html treeview.  Also provide an irc interface to them.  ?p6kw map  for instance.
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14:54 moritz that's a good idea ;)
14:54 diakopter #10 reorg the pugs repository so that the various implementations are at the same levels.  Yes of course there will be pushback on this suggestion.
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14:58 moritz wow, I'm impressed ;)
14:59 diakopter #10 continued - also as part of this, separate the official Perl 6 Test Suite from the pugs 'distribution' (as it's released to CPAN) by creating a separate CPAN distribution Perl6::TestSuite, which would be a dependency of future Pugs distributions.  Hopefully that would force the issue of making the test suite's various progress markers truly implementation-independent .oO("perhaps by utilizing another layer of smartlinks!?!").  ...
14:59 diakopter ... This would also help pmichaud with demarcating which tests he wants to run/target in p6prt's various make targets.
15:00 [particle] these items should be put into trac or rt
15:00 diakopter yeah :(
15:00 moritz you can copy & paste from the irc logs ;)
15:00 [particle] they're not linear, and parallelization would help
15:00 [particle] some are good oscon-hackathon tasks
15:02 diakopter #10 continued - yes I realize parrot has as one of it's eventual goals to not required perl5 as a build/test dependency... but this is a necessary interim state imho.
15:03 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
15:04 diakopter erm, I think I misspelled carnavon
15:05 diakopter *carnarvon it should be
15:05 moritz diakopter: what's that?
15:05 diakopter http://carnarvon.tigris.org/
15:06 lambdabot Title: carnarvon.tigris.org
15:06 diakopter it's this svn commit history analysis/graphing tool, in python
15:07 diakopter actually if we stuck with trac, it'd be nice to integrate it with trac.
15:07 [particle] that looks like a helpful tool for parrot.
15:07 Juerd ?eval 7 * 2.15
15:07 evalbot_r17041 301/20
15:08 moritz ?eval print 7*2.15
15:08 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[15.05] Bool::True
15:09 diakopter Juerd: lol - you're reading the comments on that backpacking comic
15:09 Juerd diakopter: Er, no...?
15:11 diakopter heh; my bad; I meant knapsack. :)  http://blag.xkcd.com/2007/07/09/perl-appetizers/
15:11 lambdabot Title: xkcd » Blog Archive » Perl Appetizers
15:14 moritz nice one ;)
15:14 bloonix now I can use "Immutable types" as replacement for "use constant" ?
15:15 diakopter #11 - create some wrapper scripts for svk to allow audreyt (and others) the ability to easily push copies of their local branches up to a "tentative" "staging" SVK server, from which folks like me could see visual diffs of things that folks haven't yet committed.  As in, http://svn.pugscode.org/remote/audreyt-macbook1/ http://svn.pugscode.org/remote/fglock-macbook3/ etc
15:16 moritz diakopter: which is roughly the same as switching to a distributed SCM ;)
15:16 moritz bloonix: what do you want? constant values?
15:18 diakopter moritz: I know... that's what I'm aiming for... creating a client component add-on/wrapper and a server component add-on/wrapper to enable svk to do that... I realize of course that it could all be in one repository, under /branches/ of course, but that makes the psychological barrier too high for some folks to experiment, imho...
15:19 moritz diakopter: I'd recommend setting up a git mirror (that's what I'm doing that moment), which automatically provides that (kind of)
15:20 moritz I just imagine that svn/svk hacking is not that easy
15:20 moritz but I might be wrong, of course
15:21 meppl gugu
15:21 diakopter in my opinion I think a blocker for other haskell folks contributing is merely waiting to see what audreyt has coded, both in her local branch, and in her head. :)
15:22 moritz right, especially now
15:22 moritz where we are wating for the merge of the new MO protocoll
15:23 * integral doesn't know which bits that affects, or he would be hacking the haskell
15:23 diakopter also, to address the room's elephant
15:27 bloonix moritz: yes
15:28 diakopter there is even hesitation to contribute to portions of pugs that audreyt has *not* explicitly stated she's working on, just because of worry of implementing somehting suboptimally, or "not the way audreyt would have done it".  In my humble opinion, I think this fear is invalid (but not unreasonable), but only because I know audreyt does not mind suboptimal solutions (in the least).  In other words, haskellers, please do not think ...
15:28 moritz ?eval constant $foo = 4; $foo
15:28 diakopter ... that your contributions will fall prey to the results of the NIH syndrome in someone else (in the short run). :)
15:28 evalbot_r17041 \4
15:29 moritz bloonix: just use 'constant $constant'
15:29 moritz ?eval constant $a = 3; $a = 4
15:29 evalbot_r17041 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 3
15:29 bloonix great
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15:29 moritz I think "constant" scopes like "my"
15:32 diakopter anyway, I'm sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes or crossed any lines with those last few messages.
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15:32 moritz diakopter: I don't think you did ;)
15:33 diakopter moritz: wow; git-svn uses lots of cpu in this initial sync.
15:33 moritz but on the other hand I never respected authorities very much, so my opinion might no hold for others
15:33 moritz diakopter: aye, sadly ;)
15:34 moritz diakopter: I'm at r12000 now
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16:04 pmurias integral: you expressed intrest in hacking on kp6?
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16:06 * integral is hacking a script to use Test::Harness to run the tests atm
16:08 pmurias nice
16:10 avar integral: yay
16:10 avar integral: do you have commit access?
16:10 integral Yep.  I was something like the 10th committer :)
16:11 avar yay
16:11 avar pugs++ # slutty about commit access
16:11 [particle] that is, like, so hot.
16:12 avar yeah, parrot is a cold turkey that wants you to sign papers before she'll let you play with her:)
16:12 diakopter and get STD tests.
16:13 [particle] that's the burden of tpf sponsorship
16:14 avar tpf generally won't sponsor things unless it has std contributor agreements?
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16:17 [particle] so it seems
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16:31 diakopter TimToady: will there be a SotO this year? inquiring mindless zombies want to know.
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16:45 PerlJam no state of the onion would be a sure sign to the perl naysayers that they are right about perl being dead  (IMHO)
16:49 xinming Perl isn't never, and never die. How can a language with such perfect integration of other language feature die? :-)
16:49 [particle] perl will never die, the community will reinvent it! :)
16:49 xinming PerlJam: perl isn't dead, and never die.
16:50 PerlJam xinming: At work we're bidding on a project to convert a mod_perl app to PHP.  The stated reason for the conversion is that they believe they'll have trouble finding perl programmers in the future because they are having trouble finding perl programmers now.
16:52 xinming hmm, well, this is what I doubt for perl.
16:52 xinming Python goes much better than perl in these area
16:52 xinming in China, python people are learning django. And few people try to learn cataylst
16:53 PerlJam Perl's main problem IMHO is that it's been too successful.  It's ubiquitous.  It fills all the niches.  And then it becomes part of the background and largely invisible.
16:54 diakopter PerlJam: yes, supply of Perl folks in the small-mid US cities is very very low. and from what I can tell, it's even low in the big cities.
16:54 xinming If it is invisible, Do we have to live in cyberspace? :-P
16:54 cognominal_ how can I test if a package A exists? if it is a class?
16:55 diakopter the older Perl guys are reblessed as managers for human capital lifecycle reasons... the younger Perl guys move on to flashier things...
16:56 xinming for now, people think all language is the same.
16:56 xinming They didn't notice the nice feature for a language.
16:56 xinming eg. anoymous sub, and closure, and also on handy grammar.
16:56 diakopter and very very few young folks choose/want to be trained in Perl, nor is the training available.  It's either, 7-10 years experience in Perl, or nothing.  No entry-level Perl positions.
16:56 [particle] perl has many ugly features, too.
16:57 xinming they just think, they are all just if else, while, combination, that's true. But It's not the power in perl. :-)
16:57 PerlJam yes, for a tool to be used it needs to be more than useful.  It needs for people to *want* to use it.
16:57 cognominal_ perl5 has lived too long and perl6 is not there :(
16:57 [particle] and these days, that means shiny web framework
16:57 cognominal_ for many people, ruby is perl5 done right
16:57 [particle] cognominal_: we're working on it :)
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16:58 xinming cognominal_: ruby is perl without $ @ %. :-)
16:58 [particle] why aren't you? :P
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16:58 cognominal_ ximming: I miss in ruby this minimal static typing
16:58 xinming well, I don't like ruby personally, at least, Because of It's not designed by @larry. >_<
16:59 cognominal_ btw: you perl6 guru, can you asnwer my question?
16:59 xinming cognominal_: in perl 6? or perl 5?
16:59 xinming if perl 5, please go #perl
16:59 cognominal_ in perl6
16:59 xinming if perl 6, I don't think there is implemented yet.
17:00 xinming s/there/the feature/
17:00 cognominal_ in perl5, I can help myself usually
17:00 xinming or even specced yet
17:00 xinming Sorry, I don't know
17:01 cognominal_ I am reading S10 because a class is a package but I can't yet answer my question
17:01 pmurias diakopter: what things do you consider most flashy right now?
17:01 xinming cognominal_: maybe using ~~
17:01 PerlJam cognominal_: do you mean a lexical package or a dynamic package?
17:01 xinming cognominal_: I don't know. sorry, I didn't read syn long time.
17:02 PerlJam cognominal_: if the latter, it should surely be in %OUR and the former would be in %MY
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17:03 PerlJam (I may have the sigils wrong there, but that should be enough for you grep for :)
17:03 cognominal_ there is a CANDO multimethod, but I don't want to test the existence of a specific method, jsut the existence of the class
17:03 cognominal_ Perljam: this would be a global class
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17:11 diakopter ... and so, Perl remains non-"mainstream" because 1. most Perl users are non-mainstream-minded kinds of folks, 2. very few companies are willing to hire entry-level guys to become "their Perl guy[s]", 3. Perl as a brand name is viewed as a "has-been" technology, something that's been superceded, 4. Perl's future[-as-a-technology] is drastically uncertain, so only the most daring of companies choose to implement new projects in it, ...
17:11 diakopter ... 5. Perl developers are viewed by hiring managers and project architects as elitist, rare, and demanding, 6. Perl just plain isn't the newest thing, 7. There is *NO* marketing/positioning/branding of Perl being done, by *ANYONE* (marketing in the strict sense, not just "ads") (and yes, I include perl.com in this vacuum), 8. The "way to code" Perl (the IDEs, the editors, the development environments and methodologies, the ...
17:11 diakopter ... project architecture abstractions) is universally seen as obsolete and less capable (this is probably the only misinterpretation of the facts/evidence on this list), and of course there are more (reasons).
17:15 diakopter cognomial_: flashy to me?  or flashy to the market?
17:15 diakopter er
17:16 diakopter pmurias: ^^
17:17 pmurias both
17:18 Psyche^ changed the nick to Patterner
17:18 pmurias well either ;)
17:29 diakopter flashy to me: Perl 6.  I (perhaps wrongly) project another great wave of IT reimplementation, especially in the open-source circles, due to 1. Perl 6's dynamic grammar (hence the ability to mimic any other language, and thus reuse much more existing software, much more easily), 2. its omniparadigmatic builtins (and hence one-stop-shopping for Computer Science instructors interested in actually teaching their students), 3. its ...
17:29 diakopter ... (hopefully) well-abstracted base class library (implementing MOST common (and uncommon, but superior) algorithms, patterns, protocols, and application archetypes as fully-inheritable, fully-overridable libraries), 4. its (hopefuly) ability to emit itself and other languages into other backends, such as SpiderMonkey/Tamarin on the client side, and the Java VM or .Net runtime on the server side.  Other reasons come to mind but ...
17:29 diakopter ... are less articulated.
17:30 masak diakopter: one can only hope.
17:30 pugs_svnbot r17102 | bsmith++ | Implemented a new run_tests script that uses Test::Harness and will report
17:30 pugs_svnbot r17102 | bsmith++ | which tests fail.
17:30 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17102
17:30 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17102 - Pugs - Trac
17:32 diakopter masak: the reason I think those things are crucial is that they are "terminal" or "final" steps in open-source's ideal progression.
17:33 diakopter er, terminal/final meaning that once they are done (a language/runtime compatibility layer is created for both inputted languages and emitted languages), it doesn't have to be done ever again, especially because it itself is extensible.
17:35 diakopter obviously those results were not the original goals of Perl 6.
17:35 diakopter but imho those are what they have morphed into.
17:39 diakopter If the use of Perl 6 is proposed as a useful "library" (when it's more properly described as a library-consolidator, compatibility layer, and emitter) for a Java or .Net or Rails/Ajax project, that puts it back in the toolbox, in the project architect's view.
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18:12 diakopter hmm; I hope that not every long answer is perceived as a rant.
18:15 Tene Not for any useful definition of "rant" I'm aware of.
18:16 PerlJam rants have more vitrol usually :)
18:16 Psyche^ changed the nick to Patterner
18:16 PerlJam er, vitriol even
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18:48 pmichaud diakopter: I find your long posts here to be very well reasoned, fwiw
18:48 * Tene also.
18:49 Tene diakopter++ # talks good
18:49 [particle] he's a kook!
18:53 wolverian diakopter, it'd be nice if you put that up on the perl wikis, or a blog, or so.
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18:57 diakopter wolverian: yes, and I can read between the lines "instead of putting things like that here in #perl6" :) I know, irc isn't good for sermons.
18:58 Tene I approve of IRC for sermons.  I'm much more likely to see them here than elsewhere.
18:58 diakopter perlblog.org
18:58 diakopter (soon)
18:59 Tene Bah, blogs.  Maybe I should set up a blog->irc proxy.
18:59 Tene perlblog.org == ads eww
19:00 Tene I still don't get the whole "parked" thing... If you don't have content, why not just... not add an A record to DNS?
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19:02 wolverian diakopter, I don't mind if you do it here _and_ on web. I just want a url to link to. :)
19:03 Tene http://irc.pugscode.org/ ;)
19:03 diakopter Tene: sorry; that domain just finished transferring this morning; haven't pointed it yet
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19:11 wolverian Tene, something a bit more organised would be nice
19:11 Tene wolverian: yes, it would.  that wasn't a serious suggestion.
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19:11 riffraff hi
19:12 wolverian Tene, :)
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19:35 bloonix I hope that a perl 6 book is coming soon
19:37 spinclad well, the Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials book got checked in to the pugs and parrot repos recently...  updates happening...
19:38 diakopter bloonix: http://conferences.yapceurope.org/npw2007/talk/504
19:38 lambdabot Title: Learning Perl 6
19:39 diakopter http://www.learningperl6.com/source_control.html
19:39 lambdabot Title: Learning Perl 6
19:39 bloonix lol
19:39 bloonix ln -s /usr/local/bin/pugs /usr/bin/perl
19:40 bloonix I did ln -s /usr/local/bin/pugs /usr/bin/perl6 ;)
19:41 bloonix I'm in the hope for the next perl bible on version 6
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19:45 bloonix diakopter: really nice
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19:49 wolverian hrm
19:50 wolverian ?eval sub foo (@xs) { @xs } foo(1,2,3)
19:50 evalbot_r17041 Error: No compatible multi variant found: &foo
19:50 wolverian versus
19:50 wolverian ?eval sub foo (@xs) { @xs } foo((1,2,3))
19:50 evalbot_r17041 [1, 2, 3]
19:50 wolverian is that correct?
19:50 bloonix hmm the best way to learn perl 6 is really to read the test files
19:51 Tene wolverian: it looks correct to me, depending on what specific question you're asking.
19:51 Tene ?eval sub foo (@*foo) { @foo } foo(1,2,3)
19:51 evalbot_r17041 Error: No compatible multi variant found: &foo
19:51 Tene ?eval sub foo (*@foo) { @foo } foo(1,2,3)
19:51 evalbot_r17041 [1, 2, 3]
19:52 Tene You can use a slurpy param, but that's semantically different from what you were talking about, I think.
19:52 wolverian Tene, I thought ()s are only for grouping.
19:52 wolverian precedence, that is.
19:52 wolverian foo(1,2,3) being different to foo((1,2,3)) is very weird.
19:52 Tene wolverian: howso?
19:53 diakopter wolverian: I think it's turning the list into an Array
19:53 wolverian I suppose.
19:53 wolverian Tene, I'm thinking in perl5, I guess. :)
19:54 Tene 'kay
19:56 diakopter ?eval sub foo ( Array $xs ) { $xs.perl } foo((1,2,3))
19:56 evalbot_r17041 "[1, 2, 3]"
20:03 wolverian is there a way to autothread (@foo, "a") so that if @_ is (1,2,3), I get back (1,"a";2,"a";3,"a")
20:03 wolverian sub foo { use autoindex; -> $i { (@_[$i], "a") } } # I think?
20:04 wolverian I know the map solution is trivial, but I was wondering if there's a more, er, higher order approach. hypering the , operator isn't possible, I think.
20:04 wolverian or is it?
20:05 Tene ?eval [;] [1,2,3],'a'
20:05 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "[;]"␤expecting program
20:05 Tene ?eval [;] ([1,2,3],'a')
20:05 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "[;]"␤expecting program
20:05 wolverian I know zip is trivial too :)
20:05 Tene ?eval [~] [1,2,3],'a'
20:05 evalbot_r17041 "1 2 3a"
20:06 wolverian pugs doesn't like [;] for some reason
20:06 Tene ?eval [,] [1,2,3],'a'
20:06 evalbot_r17041 ([1, 2, 3], "a")
20:06 Tene ?eval [>>,] [1,2,3],'a'
20:06 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "[>>,]"␤expecting program
20:06 wolverian ?eval (1,2,3) Z ('a' XX *)
20:06 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "XX"␤expecting operator or ")"
20:06 wolverian ?eval (1,2,3) Z ('a' X *)
20:06 evalbot_r17041 ((1, ("a", Inf)), (2, undef), (3, undef))
20:07 wolverian well, something like that
20:07 wolverian but, still, I wonder if you can hyper ,.
20:07 wolverian ?eval (1,2,3) <<,>> 'a'
20:07 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected "<<,>>"␤expecting operator
20:07 Tene ?eval @f=1..3;$a='a'; @f>>~$a
20:07 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected ">>~$"␤expecting "::", term postfix or operator
20:07 Tene ?eval @f=1..3;$a='a'; @f~>>$a
20:07 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected ">$"
20:07 Tene ?eval @f=1..3;$a='a'; @f ~>> $a
20:07 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected ">"
20:08 * Tene needs to re-read current hyper syntax.
20:08 wolverian oops, my hyper was wrong
20:08 wolverian ?eval (1,2,3) >>,>> 'a'
20:08 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected ">>,>>"␤expecting operator
20:08 wolverian dammit. :)
20:08 wolverian TimToady, can you hyper ,?
20:09 * pmurias hates bugs in kp6...
20:09 Tene ?eval (1,2,3) >>~>> 'a'
20:09 evalbot_r17041 Error: ␤Unexpected ">>~>>"␤expecting operator
20:09 wolverian ooh. hypers work with the Each role. is that what map uses too?
20:09 wolverian should we rename map to fmap? :)
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20:11 wolverian oops, my XX was wrong too
20:11 wolverian X is a metaoperator
20:11 wolverian ?eval (1,2,3) Z ('a' xx *)
20:11 evalbot_r17041 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
20:11 wolverian haha, you're supposed to stop when the shorter list ends!
20:11 wolverian silly pugs
20:11 wolverian s/pugs/pug/
20:11 wolverian ?eval (1,2,3) Z ('a' xx 3)
20:11 evalbot_r17041 ((1, "a"), (2, "a"), (3, "a"))
20:11 wolverian nice. :)
20:14 diakopter ?eval say .=++.perl
20:14 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[0␤] Bool::True
20:14 diakopter say .=++.perl
20:14 diakopter ?eval say .=++.perl
20:14 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[0␤] Bool::True
20:14 diakopter aw drat.  in the pugs shell it does weird things
20:15 Tene diakopter: doesn't for me.
20:15 diakopter if you do it more than once
20:15 buetow joined #perl6
20:15 Tene *Oh*
20:17 Tene I almost understand that.  What's the ++ do?
20:17 diakopter I don't know
20:17 diakopter perhaps nothing
20:18 rhr is that $_.= ++$_.perl ?
20:19 diakopter I guess it's the same as:
20:19 diakopter ?eval .perl.perl
20:19 evalbot_r17041 "\"\\\\undef\""
20:19 diakopter ?eval .perl.perl.perl
20:19 evalbot_r17041 "\"\\\"\\\\\\\\undef\\\"\""
20:19 diakopter yep
20:23 weinig_ joined #perl6
20:30 pmurias ?eval ++.perl
20:30 evalbot_r17041 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "\\undef"
20:38 diakopter ?eval my&s={''};
20:38 evalbot_r17041 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "MkCode {isMulti = True, subName = \"&\", subType = SubPrim, subEnv = Nothing, subAssoc = ANil, subParams = [], subBindings = [], subSlurpLimit = [], subReturns = (mkType \"Any\"), subLValue = False, subBody = Prim ([Pugs.AST.Internals.Val] -> Pugs.AST.Eval.Eval Pugs.AST.Internals.Val), subCont = Nothing, subTraitBlocks = MkTraitBlocks {subPreBlocks = [], subPostBlocks = [], subFirstBlocks = [], subLastBlock
20:40 diakopter that's saying I made a sub with name '&'!
20:46 SubStack joined #perl6
20:50 bloonix p5: *{"$subname"} = sub { 1 } how can I create it in p6 ?
20:50 bloonix I want to create 3 subs in a for loop
20:50 bloonix as example
20:51 bloonix for <foo bar baz> -> $subname { }
20:51 wolverian probably a method on the current namespace.
20:51 bloonix in a module
20:56 weinig_ changed the nick to weinig
21:06 bloonix I do something like this:
21:06 pasteling "bloonix" at 87.78.209.250 pasted "BEGIN { for my $level (qw/DEBU" (28 lines, 875B) at http://sial.org/pbot/26410
21:06 meppl good night
21:07 bloonix but dont know how I can create a sub or a method in p6
21:07 bloonix meppl: good night :)
21:07 pmurias for <foo bar baz> -> $subname {&::($subname) = sub {...}}
21:08 meppl ;)
21:08 bloonix pmurias: if that run you get a beer ;)
21:08 bloonix mom
21:08 wolverian a beer mom?
21:09 pmurias i don't drink beer ;)
21:09 bloonix mom -> moment
21:09 bloonix :)
21:09 wolverian ah.
21:09 pmurias ?eval for <foo bar baz> -> $subname {&::($subname) = sub {1}}
21:09 evalbot_r17041 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "MkCode {isMulti = True, subName = \"&\", subType = SubPrim, subEnv = Nothing, subAssoc = ANil, subParams = [], subBindings = [], subSlurpLimit = [], subReturns = (mkType \"Any\"), subLValue = False, subBody = Prim ([Pugs.AST.Internals.Val] -> Pugs.AST.Eval.Eval Pugs.AST.Internals.Val), subCont = Nothing, subTraitBlocks = MkTraitBlocks {subPreBlocks = [], subPostBlocks = [], subFirstBlocks = [], subLastBlock
21:10 pmurias bloonix: does running in kp6 count? :)
21:13 avar integral: how's the harness going?:)
21:17 pmurias good night
21:26 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
21:26 weinig_ joined #perl6
21:54 dmq joined #perl6
21:55 bloonix is autoflush on on filehandles in p6 by default?
22:05 TimToady unspecced
22:05 TimToady autochomp is default
22:05 TimToady autoflush would fix a faq, but at the cost of performance.
22:06 TimToady hard to know how to balance that one
22:06 TimToady (on the other hand, my impression is that Haskell has not worried much at all about IO buffering.)
22:07 bloonix just call $fh.autoflush(1) ?
22:07 TimToady at least, some of my straces have seemed to indicate character-at-a-time input
22:08 TimToady probably :flush on the open, or whatever replaces binmode
22:08 TimToady $fh.mode(:flush) maybe
22:08 TimToady as opposed to $fh.flush
22:09 TimToady don't think we need the "auto"
22:09 bloonix okay
22:10 TimToady or maybe $fh.buffering(:cmd) or :line or :block or whatever
22:10 diakopter $fh.mode(:latrine)
22:10 TimToady since :flush doesn't necessarily imply a flush per command
22:11 PerlJam TimToady: Does anyone ever ask you if you're having the appropriate amount of fun?  Even if they already do ... Are you having the appropriate amount of fun?  :-)
22:12 TimToady at the moment I think I am.  and no, I don't get asked that too often.  but I've learned to pace myself.
22:12 TimToady but sometimes it's an appropriate amount of nonfun.
22:13 spinclad $fh.commode(:flush)
22:13 TimToady there's a sense in which I'm the only person who is not allowed to quit  :)
22:13 diakopter spinclad: :)
22:13 PerlJam TimToady: as long as there's balance and you can push through the nonfun
22:13 TimToady yeah, fortunately I'm stubborn.
22:13 TimToady unfortunately, sometimes I'm more stubborn than my health allows.
22:14 TimToady and then I learn to pace myself again.  :)
22:15 PerlJam I missed it earlier, but someone asked if there was going to be a State of the Onion this year.  Is there?
22:15 bloonix ?eval has Int $.foo = 'string'; say $.foo;
22:15 evalbot_r17041 Error: *** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤    at -e line 16, column 7-94
22:15 PerlJam bloonix: implementations vary :)
22:16 bloonix I dont understand it. in my code its possible to pass a string to an int
22:17 TimToady PerlJam: maybe.  Allison has been finding a slot, and may be able to persuade me to say something in it.  But actually, preparing a soto is not one of the things I enjoy.
22:17 TimToady but if it works out, I could probably reuse something from yapc
22:17 bloonix ?eval has Int $.foo = 'string';
22:17 evalbot_r17041 Error: *** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤    at -e line 16, column 7-78
22:18 PerlJam Well, then I'll wish for Allison to not find a slot, or for someone to step up and give the soto in your place :)
22:18 bloonix ?eval my Int $foo = 'string';
22:18 evalbot_r17041 \"string"
22:18 TimToady well, whether I enjoy it or not has little to do with whether I *should*
22:19 TimToady bloonix: pugs ignores some of the type decls currently
22:19 bloonix okay... and I though that I miss understand something :)
22:19 TimToady that is one of the refactorings that probably depend on MO
22:20 TimToady pugs is an amazing first approximation to Perl 6, but it's just an approximation
22:20 bloonix http://sial.org/pbot/26410
22:20 lambdabot Title: Paste #26410 from "bloonix" at 87.78.209.250
22:20 bloonix how can I do that in p6
22:20 TimToady looking
22:20 bloonix *{"$subname"} = sub {1}
22:20 szbalint btw TimToady, wikipedia noted that your personal webpage is inaccessible. Where did the chartreuse go?
22:21 PerlJam bloonix: in perl6 or in pugs?  The answers may be different
22:21 diakopter TimToady: so there's no "Perl Evening" with awards and such?
22:22 TimToady bloonix: at the moment you'd have to use eval.  that's also waiting on MO
22:22 bloonix PerlJam: maybe both :)
22:22 bloonix okay, atm I build it all without a loop
22:22 TimToady diakopter: no, gnat thought they'd try somethign different this year.  
22:23 TimToady szbalint: I installed F7 on a new disk and I still haven't entirely recovered from it.
22:23 bloonix how can I say that $foo can be a string and a glob?
22:23 TimToady a glob?
22:23 TimToady as in a typeglob?
22:24 TimToady those are officially dead, though Captures have some of the same multitype capabilities
22:24 szbalint ah I see, forgive my curiosity :)
22:24 bloonix a filehandle
22:24 bloonix TimToady: a filehandle
22:25 TimToady filehandles are just scalars now
22:25 TimToady $fh
22:25 TimToady $fh = open $filename
22:25 bloonix $foo can be a string "file.txt" or $*OUT
22:25 bloonix as example
22:25 PerlJam bloonix: my String $foo but does FileHandle;   # syntax may vary  ;)
22:26 bloonix but how can I declare it? "my Str | Handle $foo;" ?
22:26 PerlJam oh.  yes.
22:26 TimToady more like, when you use it "given $x { when FileHandle {...}; when Str {...} }
22:27 TimToady or translate everything to handle at the start, if that makes sense
22:27 bloonix my WhatIExpect $foo; ?
22:27 bloonix ...
22:27 PerlJam And for junctional types, how can you assign to just one portion without destroying the others?
22:28 TimToady A junctional type doesn't imply "portions"
22:28 TimToady if you want an object with multiple attributes, you should probably use one
22:29 TimToady class MyType { has $.filename; has $.filehandle; ... }
22:29 PerlJam indeed.  This is the most important aspect of your job as language designer I think ... to winnow through the craziness  :)
22:29 bloonix hmmm
22:29 TimToady occasionally I am driven to sanity
22:30 TimToady but if you just want an untyped union, $x still holds that just fine
22:30 TimToady (well, untyped from the standpoint of the scalar; still has runtime type)
22:30 TimToady hence the given/when above
22:33 [particle] somebody drove you here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&amp;hl=en&am​p;geocode=&amp;q=sanity,+robin+hood+ln,+lydd​,+romney+marsh,+tn29+9hz,+uk&amp;sll=47.6053​8,-122.291575&amp;sspn=0.082291,0.113297&amp​;ie=UTF8&amp;z=16&amp;iwloc=addr&amp;om=1 ??
22:33 lambdabot Title: Google Maps, http://tinyurl.com/259tgt
22:33 diakopter anyone else here attending oscon this year besides Andy, Schwern, dha, possibly LordVorp, jrockway, mako132, sachmet or statico or joel or geoffeg or boojum or jobsheet or mjd (tutorials only) or particle or pmichaud or davidfetter or diakopter or cxreg or cwest or chromatic. or jonathan or TimToady or perlDreamer  ?
22:33 * PerlJam afk and home to wife+kids &
22:33 bloonix good night people
22:34 randomity joined #perl6
22:35 TimToady night
22:36 bloonix and thx a lot for the help today/yesterday
22:36 TimToady soitinly
22:38 weinig joined #perl6
22:39 TimToady I don't think Robin Hood ever got anywhere close to there...
22:42 diakopter TimToady: have you looked at Kamaelia?
22:42 Aankh|Clone joined #perl6
22:50 dduncan diakopter, wish I was, but can't afford to this year
22:51 buubot joined #perl6
23:08 nperez joined #perl6
23:26 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
23:27 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
23:34 TimToady diakopter: nope, not much time for that sort of exploration, alas
23:35 pugs_svnbot r17103 | szbalint++ | Neatening run-smoke.pl up a bit.
23:35 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17103
23:35 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17103 - Pugs - Trac
23:35 szbalint If I broke something please yell
23:35 Limbic_Region salutations all
23:35 szbalint :)
23:37 TimToady you broke the silence
23:38 TimToady oh wait, YOU BROKE THE SILENCE!!!
23:38 Tene Heh.
23:38 Tene Oh, huh, ubuntu has pugs packages.
23:38 TimToady hmm, actually, I broke it
23:39 Tene 6.2.10 was how long ago?
23:39 szbalint hehe
23:39 TimToady 'bout 97 years
23:40 IceShaman that the age of the package or the eta for the next version?
23:42 TimToady no, that's how long it's been since 1910
23:42 TimToady but I wasn't sure whether 6.2 was June 2 or Feb 6
23:45 mr_ank joined #perl6
23:48 weinig joined #perl6
23:49 weinig joined #perl6

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