Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:05 Tene Hmm.  I've got a perl5 library that I'm trying to use that has a function that requires a reference to a scalar.  What to pass to it from p6?
00:06 Tene checks with:  unless defined($var_ref) && ref($var_ref) eq "SCALAR";
00:08 TimToady maybe { use p5; $val = \$var } or some such
00:08 * Tene tries.
00:12 Tene Hmm.  "Can't locate p5.pm"
00:15 TimToady er, v5
00:17 Tene Oh, right.
00:17 clkao
00:17 clkao
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00:20 Tene Looks like it works if I return \$var from a v5 block.
00:20 Tene Thanks.
00:22 TimToady np
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00:35 TimToady ?eval for <foo bar baz> -> $subname {&::($subname) := sub {1}}
00:35 evalbot_r17041 Error: Cannot bind this as lhs: Syn "&::()" [Ann (Pos (MkPos "<eval>" 1 36 1 44)) (Var $subname)]
00:36 TimToady I expect that should work someday.
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02:50 pmichaud TimToady: (state of the onion)  fwiw, I heard a number of comments after your "Perl 6 Update" that they really enjoyed hearing your analysis of the STD.pm grammar
02:50 pmichaud (at YAPC)
02:50 pmichaud so, that could be the kernel of a talk
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03:57 pugs_svnbot r17104 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : updated Grammar.pod and Core.pod so enum type values are spec with eg [Bool:true] rather than [Bool.True]
03:57 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17104
03:57 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17104 - Pugs - Trac
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04:16 agentzh glad to see ghc on feather is now 6.6.1.
04:16 agentzh after installing some missing ghc packages, pugs is now building on feather :)
04:16 agentzh so auto-smoke will resume soon if it builds without problems.
04:20 agentzh "Setup: cannot satisfy dependency time-any"
04:23 agentzh what's the debian package name for "time-any"?
04:23 agentzh "E: Couldn't find package libghc6-time-any"
04:24 rhr libghc6-time-dev
04:24 agentzh rhr: thanks :)
04:24 rhr np
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04:59 pugs_svnbot r17105 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : updated AST.pm to remove all exported functions that trivially wrap an object constructor, updated any uses in other files to call constructors directly
04:59 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17105
05:00 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17105 - Pugs - Trac
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07:42 theorb changed the nick to theorbtwo
07:46 bloonix good morning
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08:01 moritz_ hi
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08:06 moritz_ changed the nick to moritz
08:06 pmurias hi
08:15 pmurias moritz: what's up?
08:18 Aankh|Clone changed the nick to Aankhen``
08:25 moritz pmurias: nothingmuch ;)
08:29 * pmurias is looking at the way kp6 handles arguments to methods
08:30 pmurias :(
08:33 moritz pmurias: so bad?
08:34 Aankh|Clone joined #perl6
08:36 pmurias it dosn't handle them at all :)
08:38 pmurias i hack simple positional parameters in, but what realy is need is proper Captures and Signatures, which i don't how to do right
08:39 pmurias walk to the bakery&
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09:20 pmurias b
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09:25 pmurias what docs should i look at for info about Signatures?
09:26 TimToady grep is my friend.  S02, S03, and S06...
09:28 pmurias using exactly that...
09:29 pmurias := expects a siganture literal on the left side?
09:29 pmurias * signature
09:29 TimToady yes.  you can omit the : after a declarator, and you can omit the parens on a simple var
09:32 pmurias if i store a signature in a var: $sig = :($arg1,$arg2); is there a way to bind to it at runtime
09:33 TimToady sure, as long as you don't expect it to refer to any real variables
09:33 TimToady $capture ~~ $sig does binding and then throws the binding away
09:34 TimToady if you want to do something with the binding you need a lambda with some code
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09:36 TimToady in general we don't do run-time creation of lexicals without a visible literal declaration
09:37 pmurias i was thinking of something like $sig = :($foo);$capture = \($bar);$sig.bind($capture); being equivalent to $foo := $bar
09:38 pmurias i can predeclare my lexicals before
09:39 TimToady well, obviously the engine has to be doing something like that underneath anyway
09:40 TimToady so there's likely a way to make it visible
09:40 TimToady could probably even write $sig = my :($foo) there
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09:41 TimToady though then we have a discontinuity with expecting $sig = my $foo to return $foo rather than :($foo)
09:42 TimToady if we define my $foo to be sugar for my :($foo)
09:42 Aankh|Clone changed the nick to Aankhen``
09:44 pmurias is there a list of methods Signatures & Captures have to implement?
09:45 TimToady sigs have to implement .ACCEPTS to do pattern matching
09:46 TimToady captures have to implement $(), @(), %()
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09:46 TimToady and maybe &()
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10:00 TimToady &() might return a block that came in adverbially as :{}
10:01 TimToady and a rubyesque grammar tweak might grab the implicit block that way
10:04 pmurias anything in the synopses about it?
10:05 TimToady not about implicit blocks.  they're always explicit with :{} in p6
10:06 TimToady S06:724 talks about binding slurpy blocks, which is how we currently bind :{}
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10:08 pmurias i see
10:09 TimToady so it could well be that *& binds to the &() returned by the capture
10:10 * pmurias nods ;)
10:11 wolverian TimToady, hey, not sure if you saw my question, but: can you hyper ,? i.e. (@_ »,» 'a') to make @_.elems pairs with 'a' added to each.
10:12 TimToady presumably
10:12 wolverian ah, great.
10:13 wolverian I was not sure how first level , would be :)
10:13 wolverian &infix:<,> I suppose.
10:13 TimToady it's there notionally even if the parser doesn't really use it
10:14 wolverian right
10:14 TimToady not sure we should tell people that ,= means push  :)
10:14 wolverian I am happy now.
10:14 wolverian har. why not?
10:14 TimToady hard to distinguish from .=
10:15 wolverian true
10:15 TimToady maybe good for obfuscation
10:15 TimToady and golf
10:17 wolverian besides, there's <<== for ruby/c++ers
10:17 wolverian though it's a bit uglier than in those languages
10:17 pmurias (c++)--
10:17 TimToady purposefully.  it's a rather heavyweight operator
10:18 wolverian yup.
10:18 TimToady ,= doesn't imply parallel threading
10:19 TimToady funny thing >>,=<< would append in indeterminate order
10:19 TimToady (I wish my compose key worked...)
10:19 moritz_ changed the nick to _moritz_
10:19 TimToady but F7 broke it
10:20 wolverian you could use that as a bad shuffle
10:20 TimToady heh
10:30 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
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11:04 nipotan changed the nick to nipotaway
11:11 meppl gugu
11:12 TimToady ugug
11:12 masak gguu
11:12 meppl hello tim and masak
11:13 TimToady that doesn't look like RNA
11:13 masak meppl: hi
11:13 meppl i always read "tim today"
11:13 masak TimToady: the lowercase letters are probably partly to blame
11:14 masak ?eval <G U G U>.pick(*)
11:14 evalbot_r17041 ("G", "G", "U", "U")
11:14 * masak won! :)
11:15 TimToady hey, don't use up all the luck today; I'm going on an airplane shortely
11:15 TimToady *shortly
11:16 masak I'll try to restrain myself
11:16 masak though I hope that your airplane is propelled by more than just luck
11:16 TimToady with luck, yes
11:16 masak *lol*
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11:27 masak TimToady: where're you flying to?
11:27 TimToady Boston tonight, SFO/SEA tomorrow
11:28 masak ah, ok
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11:31 * pmurias hates flying
11:32 TimToady okay, lunch and the bus, so see y'all later &
11:32 TimToady *then
11:32 pmurias safe trip
11:33 pmurias *have a safe trip
11:33 masak TimToady: yes, safe trip
11:34 TimToady thanks &
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11:55 Juerd Feather has abysmal network performance
11:55 Juerd Any hints?
11:56 Juerd It's on a 100 Mb/s link, but it doesn't even hit 1
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11:57 Juerd Hm, reset the autoneg and now it does 10 Mb/s
11:57 Juerd Still not good, but better.
11:57 Juerd (And very acceptable)
11:57 Juerd Ahh, 20 Mb/s
11:58 Juerd More than good enough :)
11:58 * Juerd wonders what was wrong though
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12:09 BinGOs win 15
12:17 szbalint common irssi typo :)
12:22 Juerd win 15 is the cheat code in hangman.pl
12:23 Juerd HOW DID YOU KNOW?
12:23 BinGOs win 15 is also where magnet #perl is >:)
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12:37 wolverian no, _this_ is win 15 :)
12:42 masak it is?
12:42 _moritz_ Nay, this 4
12:43 integral no perl6 icfpc team?
12:43 _moritz_ what's icfpc?
12:43 _moritz_ that programming contest?
12:43 integral yep
12:44 _moritz_ I don't think that any implementation is far enough right now
12:48 wolverian it's a cool task
12:48 wolverian http://www.icfpcontest.org/Endo.pdf :)
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13:01 _moritz_ the pugs SVN repository is 329MB, the git clone including all history is 723MB ;)
13:02 _moritz_ that's not too bad, if you ask me
13:04 _moritz_ time git log > /dev/null
13:04 _moritz_ real    0m0.728s
13:04 _moritz_ that _is_ fast ;)
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13:06 szbalint why is the git clone so big?
13:06 szbalint :)
13:06 _moritz_ now I'm making a tarball that can be downloaded easily, and anybody can download that and do a 'git-svn fetch' to update it
13:07 _moritz_ szbalint: because it contains the complete repository, meaning all changesets and logs
13:07 szbalint Yes I know, but compared to svn?
13:07 _moritz_ svn only keeps a copy of HEAD
13:08 _moritz_ I have now idea how big a svk repository is
13:11 pugs_svnbot r17106 | moritz++ | debian/control: updated build depencies (ghc-6.6.1, libghc6-time-dev)
13:11 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17106
13:11 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17106 - Pugs - Trac
13:13 szbalint What I mean is that the git repository for the linux kernel is 308Mb for 2.6.21
13:14 szbalint so I'm just wondering how comes the pugscode repo convert is twice as big :)
13:15 _moritz_ are you talking about .git/ only, or the other contents as well?
13:15 _moritz_ linux-2.6.22.1 is 303MB _without_ the history
13:16 _moritz_ uncompressed
13:16 szbalint yes
13:17 szbalint I'm talking about the size of the repository, without accounting for temporary files and files required for checkout
13:19 _moritz_ that's only 47MB for pugs
13:24 BooK_ changed the nick to BooK
13:26 szbalint you mean the one with the complete version history?
13:27 _moritz_ yes, that's the 723MB
13:27 szbalint Sorry if I'm a bit ambigous, but my point was that the complete repository with version history is 308mb for the linux kernel on git
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13:28 szbalint and by repository I mean the data that after transfer over the network allows another repository to be setup
13:28 _moritz_ do you know how long that history dates back?
13:29 szbalint 2 years or so
13:29 _moritz_ certainly not to pre 2.0
13:29 _moritz_ ok
13:39 chris2 how did you pack the repository?
13:39 _moritz_ git-svn clone $url; git-repack
13:39 chris2 i se
13:40 chris2 try git-repack --window=50 --depth=50
13:40 chris2 that takes a bit longer, but will back a lot better
13:40 _moritz_ chris2: thanks, I'll try that
13:41 _moritz_ Generating pack...
13:41 _moritz_ Done counting 0 objects.
13:41 _moritz_ Nothing new to pack.
13:41 chris2 git-repack -a --window=50 --depth=50
13:42 _moritz_ aye, that seems to work
13:43 chris2 accesses to the repo will be a bit slower then, but it's great for historic archives
13:44 _moritz_ anything faster than SVN is a win ;)
13:45 _moritz_ how do I publish a git repo?
13:45 chris2 which mechanism?
13:45 chris2 http, git, ssh?
13:45 _moritz_ I have http available, so that would be easiest I assume
13:46 chris2 then you just need to upload it
13:46 _moritz_ is the .git dir enough, or do I need to include the actual source files in the repository?
13:47 chris2 .git is enough
13:47 _moritz_ wow, that command reduced the size of .git to 45MB ;)
13:47 _moritz_ chris2++
13:47 chris2 yeah
13:47 chris2 i compressed YARV to 17mb
13:47 chris2 which was less than a SVN checkout(!)
13:47 _moritz_ and I assume .git is compressed already, so no need to run it through tar -j ?
13:48 chris2 no use
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13:53 szbalint hehe I told you it was too big :)
13:53 _moritz_ szbalint: yeah, you did ;)
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16:35 bloonix *arg*
16:35 bloonix p6 rockz
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16:36 bloonix with every piece I learn p6 I'm amazed a bit more!
16:37 JarJarBi1ks changed the nick to JarJarBinks
16:37 masak bloonix: yes, that's a positive side effect of p6 being great :)
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16:42 bloonix hmmm
16:42 bloonix foo(%h1, %h2, %h3)
16:43 bloonix now I want that foo() take all in one hash
16:43 bloonix how can I do it?
16:43 masak I think it does
16:43 bloonix sub (%h1, %h2, %h3) {} works but I want it all in %h_all
16:43 bloonix sub foo (%h1, %h2, %h3) {}
16:43 bloonix sry
16:44 masak then write sub (%h_all) {}
16:44 masak right, sub foo (%h_all) {}
16:44 masak I think that should be enough
16:44 bloonix *** No compatible multi variant found: "&bar"
16:44 masak the comma operator flattens by default in Perl
16:45 masak bloonix: though whether it's implemented or not, I don't know :)
16:45 masak check the tests
16:48 bloonix ?eval sub foo (%h1, %h2) {%h1<foo>.say;%h2<bar>.say;}; foo({foo => 1}, {bar => 2});
16:48 evalbot_r17041 OUTPUT[1␤2␤] Bool::True
16:49 bloonix what happends there intern? I pass references but then it are hashes
16:49 bloonix are that copies?
16:49 masak bloonix: p6 does away with references
16:49 masak in some way, a hash and a reference to it is the same thing
16:50 bloonix *arg* you are right
16:50 bloonix if I want a copy I have to say to make a copy
16:50 bloonix is a copy
16:50 bloonix is copy
16:52 masak bloonix: I can't get it to work either with the hash flattening
16:52 masak either I'm wrong or pugs is wrong
16:52 masak there's something called slurpy arrays though
16:52 masak I never learned exactly what they do, but they are related to this
16:53 masak someone more knowledgeable will be able to answer more fully
16:53 masak meanwhile, I punt to S06
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18:49 pugs_svnbot r17107 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : renamed AST.pm to Literal.pm, MDB_10_AST_Literals.t to MDB_10_Literal_Simple.t, copied|renamed DB.pm to DB.pod|DB/Interface.pm ... still to do is update file contents
18:49 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17107
18:49 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17107 - Pugs - Trac
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20:14 diakopter ?uptime
20:14 lambdabot uptime: 2d 20h 12m 59s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
20:14 specbot6 Running for 2151529 seconds.
20:14 pugs_svnbot Running for 350276 seconds.
20:14 evalbot_r17041 Running for 585240 seconds.
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20:46 diakopter ?uptime
20:46 lambdabot uptime: 2d 20h 44m 56s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
20:47 diakopter hmmm
20:47 dduncan I get the impression that the svn server may be down
20:47 diakopter yeah...
20:48 dduncan who manages that right now?
20:48 diakopter Juerd
20:52 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
20:56 evalbot_r17041 Running for 587735 seconds.
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20:57 pugs_svnbot Running for 352810 seconds.
20:57 diakopter I'm guessing an autobuild/autosmoke is occuring.... :)
20:58 Juerd The load was over 80
20:59 specbot6 Running for 2154214 seconds.
20:59 szbalint not really healthy
21:00 Juerd Whatever happened is now over
21:00 Juerd Someones ghc consumed all memory.
21:00 wolverian thanks :)
21:01 Juerd I did nothing but wait
21:01 dduncan but now it's working at least
21:02 pugs_svnbot r17108 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : updated most file contents to say ::Literal rather than ::AST ; also removed the Lit suffix from the Bool|Order|Int|Blob|Text class names
21:02 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17108
21:02 wolverian hm. I get pretty bad lag
21:02 wolverian but it might be local
21:08 dduncan Juerd, now Trac has an error citing database locked
21:09 diakopter dduncan: it does that... sqlite3 has no concurrency in this case.
21:09 dduncan however, svn/svk client stuff works, since 17108 came through
21:09 dduncan is that all it is?
21:09 diakopter that it uses to authenticate, yeah
21:09 dduncan I never encountered that one before
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21:09 diakopter er, not authenticate.  authorize.
21:10 diakopter just wait a minute; should work soon.
21:10 dduncan wildo
21:16 diakopter dduncan: if you're wanting to see the changeset diff, an alternative link is: http://perlcabal.org/svn/pugs/revision?revision=17108
21:16 lambdabot Title: revision: /pugs (Rev: 17108, via SVN::Web)
21:16 dduncan okay
21:21 _moritz_ or you can 'git clone http://moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs-git/.git/' ;)
21:22 wolverian _moritz_, is that a mirror?
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21:43 aindilis` is there a pugspan yet?
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21:53 Tene aindilis`: just ext/ of the svn repo so far...
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22:21 pugs_svnbot r17109 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : completed the split of DB.pm into DB.pod and Interface.pm
22:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17109
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22:45 Limbic_Region anyone participating in ICFP this year?
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