Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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02:40 dduncan opinion question ... I'm thinking now of accelerating my plans to separate my Muldis D language spec (all documentation) and my Muldis DB virtual machine (implements said language) into separate distros ... so that there is then just one official repo for the language spec, which the Perl 5 and Perl 6 and Parrot and whatever Muldis DB can just refer to it externally as Pugs, Parrot, v6.pm, et al refer to the Perl 6 synopsis now ... my c
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02:49 Tene dduncan: cut off after "... my c"
02:49 dduncan oh, it didn't for me
02:49 dduncan will nopaste
02:50 dduncan or not
02:50 dduncan split paste ...
02:50 dduncan opinion question ... I'm thinking now of accelerating my plans to separate my Muldis D language spec (all documentation) and my Muldis DB virtual machine (implements said language) into separate distros ... so that there is then just one official repo for the language spec, which the Perl 5 and Perl 6 and Parrot and whatever Muldis DB can just refer to it externally as Pugs, Parrot, v6.pm, et al refer to the Perl 6 synopsis now ...
02:51 dduncan my current question is, perhaps, what alternate namespace to use for the Muldis D language docs, rather than Muldis::DB::Language ... I was thinking perhaps Language::MuldisD, or maybe Muldis::D ...
02:51 dduncan there's also the question of what CPAN category this docs-only distro should go in, eg "Database Interfaces" versus "Language Interfaces" versus "String Language Text Processing" etc ... feedback, asap, is appreciated, particularly concerning what namespace to use, thanks
02:51 dduncan that's all
02:51 dduncan I think that split before the cut-off you saw
02:52 spinclad yes, endings i see are 'now ...', 'Muldis::D ...', 'use, thanks'
02:53 dduncan right
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02:53 dduncan I guess my IRC client displays to me what I sent, even if others don't get it
02:53 dduncan sort of like some telnet clients, displaying what is sent
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02:55 dduncan I'm about to send the same question to modules@ and another list, but thought I'd ask via fast IRC first
02:59 avar Everything under Muldis:: is probably a nice idea
02:59 avar and Muldis::Doc/Manual/Spec or something
03:00 spinclad as i don't really understand your intent with the terms 'Muldis' and 'D' ('DB' i have an inkling of), i can't say much on the namespace ...
03:01 dduncan 'Muldis' is a word I made up, it means "multiverse of discourse", and intend to brand a whole product line with.
03:01 dduncan Muldis::DB is one product
03:01 spinclad re category, can it be listed in multiple categories?  'DB interface' and 'Language interface'?
03:01 dduncan Muldis D is the name of a programming language; it is a 'D' language according to Darwen and Date
03:01 dduncan technically the language spec transcends an implementation
03:02 dduncan I'm not aware that CPAN lets you pick multiple categories
03:02 dduncan I personally prefer it goes under 'DB Interface', but other 'Language::' modules are under the other
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03:03 dduncan not that this means the same thing per se ... the 'D' distro is more of a 'synopsis' than an interface implementation
03:03 spinclad personally i see nothing wrong with a 'Language::' module being listed under 'DB interfaces'
03:03 dduncan I don't either
03:03 dduncan so I could request that combination
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03:08 dduncan skipping the mailing list thing, I think I'll just submit a PAUSE namespace request for Language::MuldisD under the category "Database Interfaces" and see what happens
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03:44 dduncan namespace request to PAUSE is done
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05:06 dduncan finally, the namespace request for Language::MuldisD was granted by PAUSE, so expect split distros on CPAN tomorrow
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05:07 Alias_ finally?
05:07 Alias_ Dude, I only just logged in
05:07 Alias_ :)
05:07 Alias_ (knows that dduncan has left)
05:08 Alias_ (but expects him to read the logs) :)
05:08 Alias_ \o
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05:26 popt is agentzh here
05:26 popt I want to introduce my 2 friends to him
05:27 Alias_ seen agentzh?
05:27 buubot Alias_: Sorry, I haven't seen agentzh?
05:27 Alias_ 1. It appears not
05:27 Alias_ 2. I think buubot is screwy :)
05:27 popt isn't this channel the place he lurk around?
05:28 Alias_ Yes, it is
05:28 Alias_ hence 2.
05:28 popt lol
05:28 revdiablo seen agentzh
05:28 buubot revdiablo: Seen at Sun Jul 22 07:30:50 2007: <agentzh> "In file included from /usr/lib/ghc-6.6.1/include/HsUnix.h:12,"
05:29 popt thanks both
05:29 revdiablo Nice to see the datestamp does not include a time zone
05:29 Alias_ heh
05:29 Alias_ seen Alias_
05:29 buubot Alias_: Seen at Sun Jul 22 22:29:23 2007: <Alias_> heh
05:29 Alias_ Well it's not zulu :/
05:29 revdiablo Ah, it's in pacific time
05:30 revdiablo Which makes sense I guess, since buu lives in LA
05:30 Alias_ Suddenly the genius of "X hours ago" makes sense
05:30 revdiablo Time is hard (tm)
05:30 Alias_ indeed
05:31 Alias_ <-- written a bad time library before
05:31 Alias_ <-- still struggling to convert it to DateTime in the enormous application
05:31 revdiablo I foolishly try to use epoch times for everything
05:32 Alias_ bad bad man
05:32 Alias_ I finally managed to evolve past that this year
05:32 revdiablo It's so wonderfully convenient... but yeah.
05:33 Alias_ The accumulated suck of epoch time finally reached my breaking point
05:35 Alias_ Mostly because I keep having to go back and revisit code
05:35 Alias_ And that's something that smells to high heaven for me
05:35 Alias_ So I gave up and let DateTime use whatever CPU cycles it needs to
05:36 revdiablo For me it's a matter of learning the interface, not resource usage
05:37 revdiablo I really should just do it
05:37 Alias_ indeed
05:37 Alias_ The key thing to understand DateTime is that you have to really understand that certain things are just not possible
05:38 Alias_ And that DateTime would prefer to NOT give you a result, rather than trivialize something that's hard and provide an estimate
05:39 Alias_ Which is annoying at first, until you learn to trust that when it won't give you a value that you want, you are probably asking it the wrong question :)
05:39 Alias_ So you revisit you question :)
05:39 Alias_ your
05:39 revdiablo heh
05:39 Alias_ Most of the complaints I see from people are "why don't Datetime give me the number of whatevers between this and that"
05:40 Alias_ The answer being of course, "That's a stupid question, and you're a stupid programmer, learn what a 'day' actually means" or something :)
05:40 SamB well, if "whatevers" is months...
05:40 revdiablo So sort of a guard against XY problems
05:40 Alias_ SamB: It tends to vary based on the situation :)
05:40 SamB then it's kinda clear why its
05:40 SamB not a good idea
05:40 Alias_ Not at first
05:40 Alias_ Time is *hard*
05:41 SamB well, months aren't even all the same length
05:41 SamB not even close
05:41 _moritz_ it is indeed hard ;)
05:41 Alias_ The other annoyance for DateTime is the strict exception model
05:42 Alias_ But once you realise how much pain it's saving you, it's worth the extra decoration :)
05:42 Alias_ But yeah, it does take a little work to learn the PAI
05:42 Alias_ API
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05:55 ingy hi Alias_
05:56 Alias_ hi!
05:56 Alias_ Shit, I wanted to talk to you about something
05:56 ingy me too
05:56 Alias_ But I'm afraid I've forgotten what it was
05:56 _moritz_ talking is totally overrated ;)
05:56 Alias_ (it wasn't about BCPAN, but I'm sure I'll want to hear about that too eventually) :)
05:56 Alias_ er BPAN
05:58 ingy yeah y
05:59 ingy sorry I just lost net for a sec
05:59 Alias_ n/p
05:59 Alias_ How is the hand btw?
05:59 ingy I want to talk to you about bpan, but I think it's best to get a protoype going first
06:00 Alias_ Or a definition :)
06:00 ingy my hand is coming along
06:00 Alias_ Good good, I'd hate to see you have to do an RMS
06:01 ingy BPAN == Best Practical Anarchist Nubiles
06:01 Alias_ oh dear
06:01 ingy or nonesuch
06:01 Alias_ :)
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06:57 Drummer_CCS hola
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09:05 pugs_svnbot r17120 | fglock++ | [kp6] fixed 'self'
09:05 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17120
09:05 masak fglock++ # fixing self
09:06 fglock fixing myself
09:06 lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:06 masak fglock: yes, I liked the commit message precisely because of that ambiguity
09:08 masak the trac page is feeling a wee bit ill today: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17120
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09:14 pugs_svnbot r17121 | fglock++ | [kp6] MOP - Class.add_attribute(), Class.add_role() - untested
09:14 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17121
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09:17 pugs_svnbot r17122 | fglock++ | [kp6] Perl 5 Runtime - added substr(), infix:<->
09:17 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17122
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10:04 fglock_ a Perl 5 question:  substr( @args ) # Not enough arguments for substr ... near "@args )"
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10:17 pugs_svnbot r17123 | fglock++ | [kp6] fixed substr()
10:17 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17123
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11:09 avar $ perl5.9.5 -E 'say prototype "CORE::substr"'
11:09 avar $$;$$
11:09 avar fglock_: proto coerces it
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13:20 firestorm hi...looking for something that will step through my perl program much like "bash -x" does in shell programming...suggestions?
13:21 [particle] perl -d ?
13:22 [particle] btw this is a channel for perl 6 developers--you're likely using perl 5, and would get more on-topic help at #perl
13:23 firestorm thankyou
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13:34 pugs_svnbot r17124 | fglock++ | [kp6] added accessor test (not working)
13:34 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17124
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14:08 masak the database of dev.pugscode.org is still in sad mode...
14:13 pugs_svnbot r17125 | fglock++ | [kp6] pass accessor tests
14:13 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17125
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14:27 avar trac broken
14:27 masak avar: my point exactly
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14:31 meppl gugu
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14:48 masak ?eval "meppl: " ~ <g u g u>.pick(*)
14:48 evalbot_r17041 "meppl: g u u g"
14:52 meppl :D
14:52 meppl hello masak
14:53 masak meppl: y0
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14:54 * masak is lurking on this channel, silently waiting for audreyt++'s return and 6.28.0++'s arrival, at which point he will write a new script using p6 OO
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16:44 * rho is back
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17:14 Limbic_Region wow
17:14 Limbic_Region connected for 14 minutes, this is some kind of a record
17:15 diakopter Limbic_Region: :[  :)
17:16 Limbic_Region so anything new and/or exciting happening?
17:17 diakopter I have a long todo list of fun things, that you can help with if you want :)
17:19 Limbic_Region well, anything that I participate in will have to be restricted to activities that can be completed within a day or two
17:20 Limbic_Region I do not have the luxury of taking on comittments longer than that ATM
17:20 diakopter oh cool.. it's a bunch of short things, I think.
17:21 Limbic_Region let me know
17:22 diakopter I listed them all on irc, I think, last Friday
17:22 * diakopter finds the url
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17:31 diakopter Limbic_Region: you'd like #1 I'm sure... http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-07-19#id_l318    although #7 is the generalization of that.... http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2007-07-19#id_l441
17:31 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-19, http://tinyurl.com/2erfo8
17:32 Limbic_Region the target ref didn't work but I will scroll through it to see if I can find what you are talking about
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17:33 diakopter hm, you're right... it works in Firefox, but doesn't work in IE (the #id_l318)
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17:34 Limbic_Region I don't understand #1
17:34 Limbic_Region are you talking about the languages/perl6 branch in parrot
17:34 Limbic_Region or about pugs targeting parrot?
17:35 diakopter languages/perl6
17:35 Limbic_Region if the former - already done though I do not know if evalbot would be supported
17:35 Limbic_Region oh, well I have that running on Win32/MinGW and Win32/Cygwin
17:35 Limbic_Region oh, well I have that running on Win32/MinGW and Win32/Cygwin
17:35 Limbic_Region great - connection fubar
17:36 diakopter your messages came through, at least some of them
17:36 diakopter Limbic_Region: it needs to be in its own private chroot
17:36 diakopter imho
17:37 Limbic_Region diakopter - ok, I can only find todo items 1 & 2
17:39 Limbic_Region and with regards to number 1 - languages/perl6 works out of the box on every platform I have tried so you will need to define what specifically is "todo" about the item
17:41 [particle] Limbic_Region: search for "# 3"
17:41 [particle] on the 18th
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17:42 Limbic_Region on the 18th?  interesting
17:42 diakopter on the 19th for me - search 14:42
17:43 Limbic_Region I I find no '# 3' on the 18th
17:43 diakopter I frankly don't know why those anchors don't work in IE
17:43 diakopter @tell moritz weird bug where line number anchors in the irc logs don't work in IE6
17:43 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:44 Limbic_Region ok, found the rest of the list but it doesn't really look like anything I could personally do in a day or two
17:45 Limbic_Region and as I said, # 1 needs more definition before I could say for sure if it is something that I could do or not
17:46 diakopter Limbic_Region: ok.  you're right; most of #1 will be dependent on how that new evalbot wrapper works (the chroot and such)
17:46 Limbic_Region I suspect though that the perl6 implementation on parrot is not far enough along for evalbot
17:46 [particle] no eval yet ,for one ;)
17:47 Limbic_Region heh
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18:02 jisom http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid14_gci1265116,00.html something we need to consider in parrot
18:02 lambdabot Title: New hacking technique exploits common programming error, http://tinyurl.com/yowy2u
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18:03 jisom oops, wrong channel
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18:18 diakopter ugh; lots of rogue APs at OSCON.
18:18 diakopter [particle]: eval() isn't necessary for evalbot :P
18:25 dduncan APs?
18:25 dduncan never mind
18:26 diakopter access points
18:26 dduncan thought so
18:26 dduncan but I didn't pick up on that the first time
18:27 diakopter they're all using the same ssid as the official one ("OSCON"), but they provide nonfunctional DHCP servers.
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19:28 _moritz_ diakopter: did you use the tinyurl?
19:29 _moritz_ changed the nick to moritz
19:30 moritz diakopter: the anchor is not included in the tinyurl-link :(
19:30 lambdabot moritz: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:31 moritz @massages
19:31 lambdabot diakopter said 1h 47m 6s ago: weird bug where line number anchors in the irc logs don't work in IE6
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19:31 Aankhen`` moritz: Probably wouldn't make sense for the anchor to be included, since it has to do redirect 'n' all.
19:31 moritz Aankhen``: aye
19:32 moritz Aankhen``: I'm just hoping that's what's causing the problem, because I have no IE and I'm not very keen on debugging any IE stuff
19:32 Aankhen`` Dang, I don't have IE6 installed here.
19:33 moritz there are wors things than not having IE6
19:33 moritz like, for example, having it ;)
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19:43 moritz anyway, sleep (or something) &
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20:12 pugs_svnbot r17126 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : the all-Pod Muldis D language spec has been split off to its own repo, is no longer distrib with Muldis DB, nor is in the Pugs distro any longer
20:12 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17126
20:15 dduncan note, the Pugs Trac "database is locked" error has been going on continuously for several days now ... I think something on the server needs kicking
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20:34 * diakopter lurks at "A Taste of Haskell" this afternoon
20:39 dduncan so how's it taste?
20:40 diakopter dduncan: I dunno yet.  Mr. GHC Himself presenting.  Just began.
20:41 diakopter dduncan: thanks, restarted apache2 and commitbit
20:41 [particle] it'll take hours to find out, even on modern hardware.
20:41 dduncan okay
20:42 diakopter [particle]: :D
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22:04 meppl good night
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22:15 juerd power outage + fsck
22:15 juerd afk
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22:42 pmichaud my server cut out123456
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23:38 Limbic_Region repo down?
23:41 diakopter oops
23:41 diakopter silly apache1.3 :)
23:42 diakopter try now
23:42 pugs_svnbot r17126 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : the all-Pod Muldis D language spec has been split off to its own repo, is no longer distrib with Muldis DB, nor is in the Pugs distro any longer
23:42 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17126
23:42 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17126 - Pugs - Trac
23:42 diakopter eh? that's odd
23:42 diakopter unless...... :)
23:43 Limbic_Region also - the journals link on pugscode.org is no longer pointing to planet perl6
23:43 Limbic_Region repo is working again though
23:44 Limbic_Region ;-)
23:44 Limbic_Region hrm
23:44 Limbic_Region maybe not
23:44 Limbic_Region it appears to have just hung in mid fetch
23:45 Limbic_Region nevermind, it finished
23:45 diakopter well if you clicked it when apache1.3 was running (instead of apache2), then it might've pointed someplace nonexistent
23:48 diakopter (I disabled apache 1.3 now) :)
23:49 diakopter (from being started up upon (accidental) reboot)
23:52 * diakopter learns Haskell from its creator
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