Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-07-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:16 sunnavy joined #perl6
00:51 silug joined #perl6
01:08 nipotaway changed the nick to nipotan
01:22 Siggy_SS joined #perl6
01:25 weinig joined #perl6
01:50 REPLeffect joined #perl6
02:04 kolibrie joined #perl6
02:15 Lectus joined #perl6
02:20 weinig_ joined #perl6
03:27 pro21ms4 joined #perl6
03:49 Siggy_SS joined #perl6
03:52 justatheory joined #perl6
04:04 torz joined #perl6
04:23 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
05:01 f0rth joined #perl6
05:06 f0rth_ joined #perl6
05:11 Eidolos_ joined #perl6
05:26 devogon joined #perl6
05:39 weinig joined #perl6
05:50 jisom joined #perl6
05:52 drrho joined #perl6
06:12 bloonix morning
06:24 dduncan soon
06:35 elmex joined #perl6
06:37 daxim_ joined #perl6
06:52 audreyt joined #perl6
06:59 polettix joined #perl6
07:02 franck___ joined #perl6
07:10 meppl good morning
07:11 daxim joined #perl6
07:13 iblechbot joined #perl6
07:27 flokuehn joined #perl6
07:42 marmic joined #perl6
08:18 weinig joined #perl6
08:27 buetow joined #perl6
08:33 daxim_ joined #perl6
08:41 BooK_ joined #perl6
08:57 dduncan left #perl6
09:06 ruoso joined #perl6
09:08 dalecooper joined #perl6
09:09 dalecooper joined #perl6
09:21 xinming joined #perl6
09:29 masak joined #perl6
09:34 masak moritz_: I'm on another channel, #bioclipse, on freenode. they are looking for an IRC logging solution. what would you recommend?
10:04 pugs_svnbot r17184 | masak++ | [t/syntax/interpolation/strings.t]
10:04 pugs_svnbot r17184 | masak++ | * some tests in eval() where not run, adding // ok( "" )
10:04 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17184
10:04 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17184 - Pugs - Trac
10:05 masak I still think it would be very possible to develop a little Emacs/vi tool that auto-calculated the number after 'plan'
10:05 masak I'd like to write such a tool, but I would need some real-world data to test on
10:06 masak then I realized that the Pugs test suite is perfect for this
10:07 masak & # lunch
10:12 franck____ joined #perl6
10:48 wolverian masak, the one we use seems ok
10:48 wolverian hm, now that I look at it, it aligns the nicks higher than the text lines
10:49 wolverian that looks weird
10:49 wolverian omg it uses Net::IRC
11:05 cmarcelo joined #perl6
11:08 lisppaste3 joined #perl6
11:19 masak wolverian: do you mean this one? http://colabti.de/irclogger//irclogger_logs
11:19 lambdabot Title: Logs of IRC channels
11:20 masak appears that it's the #irclogger people that handle that one
11:20 wolverian masak, I meant irc.pugscode.org, as in topic
11:21 masak wolverian: ah, yes. that's why I asked moritz_++
11:21 wolverian but that looks good too, and maybe it doesn't use Net::IRC ;)
11:21 masak it uses something called irclogger2
11:21 masak don't know if that uses Net::IRC
11:21 wolverian it's python, so no..
11:22 masak ah
11:23 masak ilogger2: so it's you who keeps our logs at colabti...
11:23 ilogger2 masak: I am a logger bot. Lines starting with [off] won't be logged. Extra help available at http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_logs.
11:23 lambdabot Title: Logs of IRC channels
11:23 masak right. I knew that
11:23 chris2 joined #perl6
11:23 masak but thx :)
11:24 masak is it "it's you who keeps" in modern english?
11:24 masak "it's you who keep" sounds wrong to me
11:25 masak but in archaic english you say "Father, [you] who art in Heaven"
11:26 masak yuck, verb endings that change depending on grammatic person are stupid
11:29 diakopter masak: but English might regain such endings, if the trend towards dropping nominative pronouns continues.
11:30 masak there's such a trend?
11:30 masak didn't know
11:31 diakopter at least on IRC/IM/txt :P
11:32 masak now that I think about it, I do it in Swedish quite a bit when writing emails to friends
11:32 wolverian interesting, http://search.cpan.org/~philcrow​/Java-Javap-0.04/bin/java2perl6
11:32 lambdabot Title: java2perl6 - a Java to Perl 6 API translator - search.cpan.org
11:33 diakopter yeah...  much of the time, the context or even (*gasp*) `lilt' can indicate person.  
11:36 masak "lilt" ?
11:38 diakopter intonation, I meant.
11:38 masak ah
11:39 masak it's a bit of an art to convey intonation correctly over the webbernet, though
11:39 masak I sometimes cringe at people who use exclamation marks liberally
11:39 diakopter I guess for someone like me (who's not learned Japanese or similar) considers all intonation as sounding like a "lilt". :)
11:40 diakopter er, how'd that "for" creep into that sentence?
11:40 masak diakopter: not sure I follow. how does a "lilt" sound?
11:42 masak what's the best way today to generate an AST from p6 source?
11:42 diakopter I'm using it to mean several of these definitions: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lilt
11:42 lambdabot Title: lilt - Definitions from Dictionary.com
11:42 masak I just realised that this would be far superior to parsing test files directly in a script
11:43 masak diakopter: wow, there really is such a word. I thought you made it up, or borrowed it from some other language
11:43 diakopter heh... as if there are words that don't arise in those ways... ;)
11:43 masak diakopter: 'course, but in this particular case...
11:44 diakopter masak: the implication being that if I use such a word, there is such a word.
11:44 diakopter (I or anyone else)
11:45 masak diakopter: I'd agree, except there's still the extra authority of finding a word in a dictionary
11:45 masak that means at least two people have used it :)
11:46 masak hm, maybe I mean something like "authoricity" instead of "authority"
11:46 masak diakopter: you don't happen to know how to generate an AST from perl6 source, do you?
11:47 diakopter masak: Hey!  Authoricity isn't a word!  Someone already coined a term for your usage!  ;)
11:47 masak diakopter: :)
11:48 diakopter (joking...)
11:48 masak yes
11:48 diakopter hmm, well, actually I was just studying pugs' src/ to find exactly that.
11:48 diakopter funny you ask
11:48 masak heh
11:49 masak diakopter: as long as you have a certain familiarity with src/, maybe you can answer some other questions ;)
11:49 masak where is string interpolation being done? I've looked, but turned up zilch
11:51 masak also, what's the difference between a an anon black and the common space outside all blocks?
11:51 masak (muddy question, maybe I need to clarify that)
11:52 masak it's pugs t/magicals/subname.t, the last test
11:52 masak it wants &?ROUTINE.name to be undef, and I can do that
11:52 * diakopter looks for a long while
11:53 diakopter ahah!
11:53 masak but right now it's '<anon>', and I need to test for something that distinguishes it from test #3, otherwise that will fail
11:53 * masak loves discussing wanted features based on failing tests
11:53 diakopter masak: pronoun nominatives can disappear today because the imperative mood (implied 2nd person) has all but disappeared!
11:53 masak diakopter: yes, are right about that
11:54 masak er
11:54 masak I mean "nod"
11:54 masak (which could be imperative, but isn't)
11:55 diakopter LOL
11:55 diakopter "diakopter, yes, are right about that"
11:55 diakopter (I assume that was a typo)
11:56 masak diakopter: no, just testing writing w/o nominative pronouns
11:56 diakopter k; gotcha :D
11:56 polettix lol
11:56 masak it would have been a bit too coincidental to have been a typo, wouldn't it?
11:56 diakopter no.... I drop (random) all the time
11:57 masak ("gotcha" is fun too... it's the only time "you" is spelled "cha")
11:57 diakopter "whatcha" doing
11:57 masak ah, true
11:57 diakopter "captcha" this! ;)
11:58 masak no ;)
11:58 masak for one thing, "capt" is not a verb
11:59 diakopter lol; sorry, just taking the opportunity to exercise my visual word index.
11:59 masak diakopter++ # for exercising
12:00 diakopter k, so, gimme a while to research some of your questions.
12:00 masak you forgot "cha-cha" in that case
12:00 masak diakopter: sure
12:04 diakopter ... "k, so, " being a plea for tolerance of the forthcoming imperative verb (because otherwise someone might take it as a demand or command, as if I think I have authority or influence).  Pray suffer me a time to research.
12:05 masak that's how I read it
12:20 buetow joined #perl6
12:20 allbery_b the archaic meaning of "pray" is supplication; the modern equivalent is "please"
12:21 allbery_b in modern English "pray" has all but lost its secular usage
12:21 * masak likes the new linguistic touch to #perl6
12:21 diakopter but first, 'authoricity'.  From the (extremely few) usages indexed by Google, it can denote "[intended or effective] authoritative-ness or definitive-ness"... is that your usage?
12:21 allbery_b (where's TreyHarris, he can probably give you a complete rundown on it... :)
12:21 masak diakopter: that's my usage
12:22 masak diakopter: "authority" felt like something else when I tried it
12:22 masak even if it can probably also be used to denote what "authoricity" denotes
12:23 iblechbot joined #perl6
12:25 diakopter allbery_b: I was trying to be archaic, hence "suffer" for "allow" or "let me have".
12:29 diakopter albery_b: it sounded like you were correcting me, but now I'll assume you weren't. :)
12:36 nipotan changed the nick to nipotaway
12:36 allbery_b no, I dropped in late and didn't spot any context in a quick scan of backscroll
12:37 allbery_b what I did see implied someone trying to figure out unusual English usage so I tossed that in
12:40 diakopter ah. :)
12:40 diakopter msft is BSDish-licensing IronRuby's source...
12:41 diakopter oh, I'm behind the times.
12:43 masak diakopter: they are? cool. kudos to msft
12:45 TJCRI joined #perl6
12:48 diakopter TextMate doesn't like audrey's nested .hs block comments
12:49 masak well, it's open source, isn't it? should be able to change
12:51 diakopter the syntax highlighting grammar is, yeah
12:51 masak yes. maybe not the editor itself
12:51 masak would be difficult to sell for money then
12:52 diakopter thoughtpolice: ping
12:55 dwave left #perl6
12:58 jhorwitz joined #perl6
13:00 Schwern joined #perl6
13:02 Schwern joined #perl6
13:06 jhorwitz joined #perl6
13:07 jhorwitz joined #perl6
13:13 Aankhen`` joined #perl6
13:14 xinming_ joined #perl6
13:19 mncharity joined #perl6
13:23 pugs_svnbot r17185 | diakopter++ | minor corrections; still haven't determined whether the draft Concurrency.POD should be linked from here... any suggestions, anyone?
13:23 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17185
13:32 masak speaking of which, I'd like to remind anyone who has the required bits to change it,
13:32 masak that http://perlcabal.org/syn/ has a broken link
13:32 masak namely A07, http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/apo/A07.html
13:33 masak now I know the background of A07, and that it doesn't contain any essential text
13:33 masak but still, I think it's a shame that it gives a 404
13:34 masak the official docs of a product contribute to much of the initial impression about the product
13:34 masak and perlcabal.org/syn are as much official docs for perl6 as you can get
13:35 masak people will get the 404 and go "oh well, guess there's not enough people reading those docs to have noticed yet"
13:36 masak "guess there's not that much interest for perl6, then"
13:36 masak ...which I think would be sad, when it's very easy to patch
13:36 * masak winds down
13:36 thepler joined #perl6
13:38 hkb_zz joined #perl6
14:08 BooK joined #perl6
14:25 amnesiac joined #perl6
14:32 diakopter masak: is there an A07 anywhere?
14:32 masak I should think so
14:32 masak but it's very small
14:33 masak basically says that it didn't need to be written
14:33 masak because formats are not core anymore
14:34 masak I don't know where or if it can be found on the net
14:34 masak but I remember reading it at some point
14:34 masak and there's a (broken) link to it, but not to many of the other Axx
14:36 masak diakopter: how's it going with my questions? :)
14:37 masak don't want to rush you in any way, but I'm very curious
14:40 IllvilJa joined #perl6
14:40 diakopter masak: :P slowly... was afk for a while. building my new 1GB vps for slightly-more-private-than-feather development... http://www.vpsfarm.com/
14:40 lambdabot Title: vpsFarm
14:40 masak diakopter: ok, don't let me slow you down further :P
14:42 diakopter (a darn good deal if you ask me... and I've tried several vps companies - unixshell.com(1 too many lost-all-data crashes) prgmr.com(yikes! 3 too many lost-all-data crashes) and spry.com/vpslink.com (1 too many lost-all-data crashes).  Haven't lost any from vpsfarm.com yet.
14:43 * avar likes slicehost.com
14:43 * masak agrees with the 'yikes', in general
14:43 diakopter haven't tried that one yet - it's always been somewhat more expensive than those others I mentioned.  If vpsfarm fails me... I'll try slicehost next.
14:45 masak I haven't needed such solutions yet. diakopter, what do you use them for?
14:48 diakopter masak: clients/employers need commodity offsite backup locations (that are more customizable than the ASP offerings), email filtering/holding/hosting, vpn/proxy endpoints... and I like to toy around on them. it's like having vmware or parallels, except much easier (less laptop hdd intensive, I mean) to reload OS images while "learning" tricky system admin skills. :)
14:50 diakopter vpsfarm.com is the best I've seen, so far... and of course, by far, the cheapest.  $40/month for 1GB ram and 5Mb/s throttled/unmetered.  Oh, and I also use them for file distribution/hosting for clients/employers.
14:51 diakopter you don't get a VPS for the CPU... you get one for the memory and bandwidth.
14:51 masak ok
14:54 rdice joined #perl6
14:54 diakopter btw, all those companies advertised RAID1/5 storage for their vps' filesystems.  But in each case of failure, it was the RAID controller that failed, and the arrays couldn't be rebuilt on a replacement controller, either because "couldn't get an exact-model replacement in time" or "the dying controller ruined the array".
14:55 diakopter (so they said)
14:55 Juerd That's why I always use software raid.
14:55 Juerd BTW, my company has VPS'es too
14:55 Juerd See www.rootaccess.nl </spam>
14:56 diakopter so... for clients I get them in pairs, and make the vps host insist they're on distinct machines.
14:56 Juerd (We still haven't built a real site, because we're doing well enough without even)
14:56 diakopter Juerd: can you beat vpsfarm.com's prices?
14:56 Juerd I have no idea
14:56 Juerd I'm not interested in beating prices, to be honest.
14:57 Juerd No, I can't
14:57 diakopter Juerd: I will definitely let you know as soon as vpsfarm has a crash or goes out of business or something :)
14:58 diakopter RAID-10 in software?
14:59 moritz joined #perl6
14:59 Juerd Yes.
14:59 moritz masak: do you still need an irc log solution?
14:59 masak moritz: yes. I've asked on #irclogger, but they have not responded yet
14:59 Juerd diakopter: I've stress tested that extensively and it works very well
15:00 Juerd We have great I/O on our servers
15:36 topic for #perl6 is: http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
15:37 Blwood changed the nick to dingotux
15:38 dingotux changed the nick to Blwood
15:38 moritz joined #perl6
15:38 perlDreamer joined #perl6
15:41 evalbot6_r17176 joined #perl6
15:41 diakopter whoa; it actually worked.
15:42 diakopter ?eval 300*3/12  # 25, duh
15:42 diakopter 75
15:42 diakopter lol
15:43 diakopter hm, well
15:43 diakopter <sigh>
15:44 diakopter (at least the revision number is correctly appearing now)
15:44 moritz ?eval 1
15:44 nekokak_ joined #perl6
15:44 * diakopter tries again
15:52 diakopter boy..... it's slow to svk update -s ; svk info ; make clean ; make soon
15:56 pugsbot_r17185 joined #perl6
15:56 * Juerd wonders when TPF will wire the money
15:56 Juerd I hope it'll happen before thursday, but probably not
15:57 Juerd I'll be gone for a week from friday afternoon
15:57 [particle] Juerd: i suggest you follow up with email. i've found that pestering helps speed things up
15:57 diakopter ?eval 1
15:57 unobe joined #perl6
15:57 diakopter argh.
15:57 Juerd [particle]: Did that, obra helped too.
16:00 Eidolos_ changed the nick to Eidolos
16:04 xinming_ changed the nick to xinming
16:13 obra [particle]: we're already fully pestering
16:16 [particle] great :) there are others waiting on tpf money, too
16:20 Juerd I wonder what is slowing this small organization down
16:20 Juerd Perhaps lack of tuits, perhaps fundamental problems. It's so opaque so we can only guess :|
16:21 orafu joined #perl6
16:23 franck___ joined #perl6
16:23 Blwood changed the nick to Ivanlef0u
16:23 Ivanlef0u changed the nick to Blwood
16:24 weinig joined #perl6
16:25 diakopter Juerd: it appears there is someone named as Treasurer, but who is Ex officio
16:27 Juerd Aha
16:27 Juerd Maybe phones would work
16:28 Juerd It's a relatively new invention that helps people communicate over arbitrary distance ;)
16:29 diakopter in realtime!!! :)
16:29 rgs in _constant_ time
16:29 diakopter rgs: thanks, yes.
16:29 SamB eh.
16:29 SamB you guys didn't get very far in physics, did you?
16:31 Juerd rgs++
16:31 Juerd samb++
16:31 Juerd SamB: Sufficiently arbitrary distance, then :)
16:32 amnesiac same SamB as ##C?
16:32 SamB yeah
16:32 Juerd It's not like the Treasurer is likely to be on another planet :)
16:32 amnesiac I see
16:32 amnesiac same Juerd as ##perl? :P
16:32 Juerd There's a ##perl? Where?
16:32 diakopter SamB: that's kind of a snide remark. :/ Some people stop a course of education for reasons other than not being able to "get" further.
16:32 amnesiac at undernet
16:32 amnesiac and dalnet!
16:32 Juerd I'm on undernet? Dalnet?
16:32 Juerd Hm
16:32 Juerd Could be :)
16:33 Juerd As far as I know, I'm the only Juerd who writes Perl.
16:33 Juerd There are a few other Juerds, but I've never seen anyone with this name do anything with Perl
16:33 amnesiac I'm the only Marco that writes Perl!
16:33 SamB diakopter: I meant, if they'd taken it they ought to remember that we don't know how to make things go faster than the speed of light
16:33 Juerd amnesiac: No :)
16:33 amnesiac Juerd, dang!
16:33 amnesiac Juerd, well, the only mexican Marco
16:33 amnesiac better? :P
16:33 Juerd Can't verify that :)
16:34 amnesiac :/
16:34 Juerd I think it's funny that approx 99% of all Google hits on "Juerd" are related to me.
16:34 justatheory joined #perl6
16:34 Juerd Yay for CPAN and its gazillion mirrors.
16:34 SamB diakopter: I wasn't trying to insult their intelligence
16:34 amnesiac with my name, Google shows my CPAN account too.
16:35 amnesiac and all the stuff I've been into
16:35 amnesiac (including drugs and pr0n movies)
16:35 Juerd diakopter: He didn't mention any reasons for stopping...
16:35 diakopter Juerd: not explicitly, no.
16:38 * Juerd did not get very far in physics
16:38 Juerd I got far enough in Perl though
16:38 * moritz is much further in physics than in perl
16:39 moritz I which I knew my perl nearly as well as my physics ;)
16:39 Juerd I guess what I'm trying to say is that if that remark offended you, you might be a bit over sensitive
16:39 Juerd In my humble opinion, of course.
16:41 SamB or maybe I'm insensitive!
16:41 meppl gugu
16:42 SamB meppl: what you do that for?
16:42 diakopter Juerd: I got the message; I appreciate the sentiment.  I was [and remain] unoffended, but I did find it annoying that SamB didn't read my mind and see that I said "realtime" when I meant "synchronous".
16:42 meppl good evening samb
16:42 meppl SamB, just for greeting
16:42 diakopter :D
16:42 SamB heh
16:42 SamB ah.
16:42 SamB good, um, lunchtime ;-)
16:43 meppl bon appetit samb
16:44 moritz Juerd: the changeset r17181 changed index.html on www.pugscode.org 21 hours ago, and still isn't showing on the front page...
16:44 moritz Juerd: could you please check if the synchronisation works?
16:44 moritz or am I missing something stupid here?
16:48 weinig changed the nick to weinig|brb
16:52 Juerd moritz: ENOTUIT
16:53 diakopter moritz: I'll look at it after the evalbot is fixed
16:53 diakopter I'm not sure what's wrong.  it's setup nearly exactly the same way as it is in audreyt's tree.
16:54 moritz ok
16:55 moritz diakopter: does the no-autobuild evalbot work for you?
16:57 diakopter haven't tried running it without the wrapper.
16:59 weinig|brb changed the nick to weinig
17:00 pugsbot_r17185 joined #perl6
17:00 diakopter ?eval "I'm a bot"
17:02 moritz \"I'm a bot", Bool::True
17:08 hkb_zz changed the nick to hakobe
17:13 pugsbot_r17185 joined #perl6
17:14 vel joined #perl6
17:14 beppu joined #perl6
17:14 moritz ?eval 1
17:15 diakopter ahah
17:15 diakopter it's b/c multiple dispatch is broken.
17:15 diakopter (eye roll).
17:19 Psyche^ joined #perl6
17:26 qmole joined #perl6
17:31 Psyche^ changed the nick to Patterner
17:32 pugsbot_r17185 joined #perl6
17:35 diakopter ?eval 1
17:35 pugsbot_r17185 1
17:35 diakopter oh look, I can work around pugs' brokenness.  ran across an interesting question, though... one minute...
17:43 amnesiac joined #perl6
17:44 TJCRI joined #perl6
17:56 moritz joined #perl6
18:00 jisom joined #perl6
18:00 fglock joined #perl6
18:00 fglock hi
18:00 lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:01 moritz_ joined #perl6
18:01 diakopter fglock: hi
18:02 fglock diakopter: hey
18:02 obra hey fglock
18:02 obra how's life?
18:03 fglock I'm doing the tourist thing :)
18:03 obra nice
18:03 moritz_ where?
18:04 fglock and a bit of $work - I'm implementing a language-to-java translation - with several parts reusable for kp6
18:04 fglock moritz_: Lisbon
18:04 obra what language? ;)
18:05 moritz_ fglock: cool ;)
18:05 fglock it's called "tea", but there seems to be several languages named like that
18:05 fglock I'm finishing the type analysis
18:06 fglock the grammar is written in Perl 6
18:06 moritz_ cool ;)
18:10 fglock ruoso is implementing the Java emitter
18:11 avar fglock: what $work allows you to hack p6?:)
18:11 ruoso actually I'm doing tree transformations in tea itself now...
18:11 ruoso refactoring the syntax tree
18:12 ruoso so that if { func(); func() } { then() } { else () } can be written more sanely in java
18:12 rindolf joined #perl6
18:12 dduncan joined #perl6
18:13 ruoso it would be nice if there was a way to manipulate the tree in a more readable way
18:13 fglock avar: it's a code base migration - we are the R&D crew :)
18:13 ruoso I think that applies to kp6, don't it fglock?
18:13 ruoso currently the tree transformation is weird Perl 5 code
18:14 rindolf ruoso: what is kp6, BTW?
18:14 ruoso kinda-perl-6
18:14 ruoso a subset of Perl 6 and a supper set of mini-perl-6
18:14 fglock hmm - we could have a tree transformation library, or a tree transformation language
18:15 ruoso I need to take a better look in TGE, but at the first sight, it seems very parrot specific
18:15 avar fglock: Take a lesson from lisp, trees are naturally lists of lists:)
18:15 [particle] forget tge (it's parrot-specific). look at nqp
18:15 rindolf Hi all, BTW.
18:15 avar So I guess if you have a easily modifyable ast everything leads from thereon:)
18:15 ruoso actually, I figured out that the match should be more like a tree
18:16 fglock nqp?
18:16 ruoso actually implementing a tree-traverser of the match is kind of always case-by-case
18:16 ruoso as the match object is today
18:16 obra nqp is patrick's "perl6 like language for tree transformation"
18:16 obra I believe it's a proper subset.
18:16 [particle] not-quite-perl
18:16 ruoso nice... any links?
18:16 [particle] sure!
18:17 [particle] http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/languages/nqp/
18:17 lambdabot Title: Revision 20381: /trunk/languages/nqp
18:19 ruoso hmmm
18:19 buetow joined #perl6
18:20 ruoso doesn't seems to be much of help in our case...
18:20 ruoso at least I didn't see anything tree-specific
18:23 ruoso [particle], did I miss something or it is just a subset of perl 6?
18:24 moritz_ rindolf: hi, see http://www.pugscode.org/kp6.html ;)
18:24 lambdabot Title: kp6 - KindaPerl6
18:25 rindolf moritz_: I see.
18:26 * moritz_ was too dump to really help with kp6, so he wrote this homepage instead
18:29 moritz_ are io layers supposed to work with STDOUT in p5?
18:29 moritz_ open(STDOUT, '>:utf8', $file)
18:29 moritz_ that doesn't work for me
18:29 [particle] ruoso: it's a subset of perl 6, but will be used for tree transformation in parrot
18:29 rindolf moritz_: I think so, yeah.
18:30 ruoso hm.. I see, it will be used with TGE, turning TGE less parrot-specific (is it?)
18:30 [particle] well, no, nqp uses tge to build itself.
18:30 moritz_ ok, then I'll write a bug report
18:30 ruoso but anyway... It really would be nice if the match object had a tree interface
18:30 [particle] until nqp is bootstrapped (possible but not high-priority) we'll keep tge around
18:31 ruoso but, nqp, being a subset of perl 6, won't help that much with tree transformation
18:31 * ruoso saying that from this specific experience
18:32 ruoso we need something that looks like XSLT to transform a match into something else
18:32 [particle] ruoso: it will certainly help us in parrot, we'll be replacing the parse -> PAST transformations with nqp
18:34 ruoso [particle], I see, but I'm talking about yet another abstraction layer
18:36 ruoso maybe a pluggable tree interface that could keep that logic..
18:37 ruoso and a tree transformation engine that understands that tree interface
18:38 fglock we could apply a 'Tree' role to the Match class  # ???
18:38 ruoso that would work
18:39 ruoso actually, it should be two different objects
18:39 ruoso so that the match object doesn't have any info of where it is in the tree
18:39 ruoso what makes it possible to change the "data" for a node
18:40 ruoso without losing the children
18:42 ruoso eventually the tree could have all the "data" slots changed, but still have the same strucutre
18:42 fglock my $tree = MyTree.from_match( $/ )
18:43 ruoso or have all the "dat" slot unchanged, but with a complete different structure
18:43 ruoso that seems sane...
18:43 ruoso Considering the match is turned into a tree
18:44 ruoso we need a language to specify the transformations
18:44 ruoso like a Grammar is to text
18:45 fglock $/.xml
18:46 ruoso fglock, $/.dom would be better, actually
18:46 fglock # xslt
18:46 ruoso $/.xml_dom
18:47 ruoso actually, thinking about xml as a way to represent a match is very much straight-forward
18:47 franck___ joined #perl6
18:48 fglock PCR::Runtime::Match::XMLDOM ?
18:48 ruoso specially in terms of debugging the grammar
18:48 ruoso analysing a XML file is easier than the output of Data::Dumper ;)
18:49 fglock how about the compiler environment  # implemented as closures
18:50 ruoso that should be part of the transformation language
18:50 ruoso and stored inside the tree as appropriate
18:51 fglock for example - a BEGIN block that modifies the grammar
18:51 fglock in a specific scope
18:52 ruoso hmmm...
18:52 * ruoso in crazy mode...
18:52 ruoso so the entire Perl 6 grammar is part of the compiler env, rihgt?
18:52 fglock yes
18:52 ruoso this is actually a sad thing, because this way we can't have multi-stage compilers...
18:53 fglock BEGIN only executes at the first stage
18:54 ruoso but it runs arbitrary code that can change the compiler environment
18:54 ruoso so, the first stage must have available all the other stages
18:54 ruoso which, in the end turns everything into a single stage again
18:56 fglock kp6 BEGIN finishes with a tree transformation
18:56 fglock which copies the side-effects back to the AST under construction
18:57 fglock what if BEGIN returned xslt ?
18:57 ruoso we would need to know exactly what happens inside BEGIN... which we don't
18:57 ruoso the idea of a simple copy
18:57 ruoso seems simpler
18:58 fglock hmm - after BEGIN finishes, we can get to the side-effects
18:59 fglock such as, a global was modified
18:59 ruoso we copy the env to the new compiler instance that will handle BEGIN, and then copy it back to the tree representing that this new tree is available after that statement
19:00 stevan_ joined #perl6
19:02 bcmb_ joined #perl6
19:03 franck____ joined #perl6
19:06 masak joined #perl6
19:07 jettero joined #perl6
19:07 weinig_ joined #perl6
19:12 hakobe changed the nick to hkb_zz
19:14 weinig joined #perl6
19:15 fglock [from the offline discussion] compile-time pads must be serializable, so that we can represent them in the tree
19:19 ruoso TimToady, ping
19:20 ruoso one of the big things of the BEGIN in Perl 6 is that it can change the grammar, right?
19:20 ruoso and this change will affect the compilation from that point on
19:20 moritz_ aye
19:20 ruoso how exactly is the syntax for that?
19:21 ruoso and how is the compiler supposed to handle a parse tree with a different structure?
19:21 moritz_ I don't know... one way to change the syntax is to define new/override old operators
19:22 moritz_ the other thing is you can just define a token the STD namespace, and per mmd it will be used instead of the original one
19:22 ruoso would that be a substitution rule that generates parseable code?
19:22 moritz_ at least that's how I think it works
19:24 ilogger2 joined #perl6
19:24 ruoso moritz_, actually, that's what macro are
19:25 TimToady a macro is just a convenient way for a user to write a new grammar rule
19:25 lambdabot TimToady: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:25 ruoso TimToady, yes... and that's not what I'm talking about... I'm talking about that COMPILING::<$?PARSER> thing...
19:26 TimToady there is some speculation in the comments at the top of STD about that, but obviously they are not entirely fleshed out yet.
19:26 * ruoso reading that, and getting no clue about how it should work ;)
19:26 TimToady certainly you are correct that it doesn't make much sense to swap in grammar rules without also adding corresponding semantic rules
19:27 TimToady unless you're just testing for syntactic correctness...
19:27 TimToady but basically you just never return something from a grammar reduction that you don't also have a way to handle downstream
19:27 ruoso but the problem is that the code accepted as correct by a new rule (not counting macros) will be completely unknown to the compiler in the second stage
19:28 TimToady there is no "the compiler"
19:28 rindolf Hi TimToady
19:28 TimToady Perl 6 isn't a single language
19:28 ruoso s/the/one/
19:28 moritz_ ruoso: no necessarily.. if you just overwrite a rule, and insert the same {*} tokens, the semantics might not see the changes at all
19:28 moritz_ s/no\b/not/
19:29 ruoso moritz_, and that's a mine field ;)
19:29 moritz_ ruoso: aye. most fiddling with internals is ;)
19:29 TimToady {*} is just a kludge currently to avoid speccing the AST transforms in STD.pm
19:30 ruoso TimToady, we stop then in the need for a language for the second compiling stage, where the parse tree is transformed in a semantic tree
19:30 TimToady the important point about {*} is that it is bound to a semantic identity
19:30 ruoso which is where this discussion started, btw...
19:30 ruoso heh
19:30 TimToady if you change the semantics of {*}, then you have to give it a different identity
19:30 moritz_ TimToady: right. Which makes it possbile to attach documentation instead of a compiler to the grammar ;)
19:30 TimToady p6 is all about maintaining identity of the "current language"
19:30 moritz_ TimToady: that's what I want to do for perlhints
19:31 TimToady yeah, though I think they are kinda tending to clutter STD in the same way that explicit reductions would
19:32 TimToady maybe we can get those indirect like the reductions
19:32 ruoso the problem is that getting to the AST is a bigger problem than it looks at first sight
19:32 ruoso even if you can parse correctly the code
19:32 ruoso parsing is now (thanks to Perl 6 rules) the easiest step
19:33 ruoso but transforming that into something actually usefull is another story
19:34 TimToady well, of course, minimally you can just interpret the AST like pugs.  everything else is optimization.  :)
19:35 TimToady which, of course, explains pugs blazing speed  ;)
19:36 TimToady *pugs's
19:36 TimToady *not* interpreting the AST directly is one way that p5 got faster than p4
19:37 TimToady but I completely agree that it's a fair amount of work, or maybe an unfair amount of work
19:37 ruoso yep... the experience from this "tea" compiler shows that...
19:38 ruoso I'm quite sure that we need a "tree grammar language" to make this job acceptable
19:39 TimToady we were working on something like that earlier in the design of p6
19:39 TimToady mostly based on binding tree nodes to signatures
19:39 * ruoso votes for getting to work on that again ;)
19:39 ruoso heh
19:40 TimToady with a sufficiently restricted subset of returns you can even make it reversible
19:40 [particle] timtoady: pmichaud and i discussed a possible #{*} for a hook that didn't affect longest-token analysis
19:40 * ruoso feels the smell of functionall programming again...
19:41 [particle] ruoso: see txl for a tree transformation language i happen to like
19:41 ruoso [particle], url?
19:42 TimToady after having spent months teaching the p5 compiler not to forget things just so I could do p5-to-p6, I am a little more pleased with the idea of reversibility than I was 15 years ago...
19:42 [particle] http://www.txl.ca/
19:42 lambdabot Title: TXL Home Page
19:42 TimToady [particle]: well, by definition a comment wouldn't affect anything, but it also doesn't give you anything that actually gets called.
19:43 sunnavy joined #perl6
19:43 TimToady a <?{*}> assertion doesn't affect longest token and still gets called (eventually)
19:43 [particle] TimToady: yeah, i know. it would mean smart comments
19:43 TimToady I don't like smart comments, actually
19:43 [particle] what about reserving <*>
19:43 TimToady the #= stuff notwithstanding
19:44 TimToady I think we even mentioned <*> a couple of weeks ago.  It's certainly available.
19:44 [particle] in general, i agree, but the door opened with #= :)
19:44 TimToady #= was aimed at enabling a preprocessor kludge
19:45 TimToady I wasn't expecting pm to turn it into real smart comments. :)
19:45 diakopter TimToady: it's in its pugs form, but check this out:  http://rafb.net/p/JtCYyZ42.html
19:45 lambdabot Title: Nopaste - foobar
19:45 [particle] you ivory tower designers just don't know a good implementation hack when you spec one :)
19:45 diakopter chromatic clarified the question: <@chromatic> I think the question is "Why does binding a code block to a module-global name occur at the point of compilation, not at the point of execution within a surrounding context?"
19:46 diakopter then, my next question was: Is Perl 6 supposed to change this behavior (and why [not])?
19:48 masak TimToady: do you happen to know what today's best method for getting p6 source -> AST is?
19:49 ruoso masak, actually that's the question of the day ;)
19:49 TimToady masak: depends on which subset of p6 you want to run.
19:49 masak ruoso: woot
19:49 masak TimToady: the tests, which would be all of p6, I guess
19:49 masak I aim to do statistics on the tests
19:49 ruoso it would be better if we had a p6 AST definition
19:49 ruoso :)
19:50 TimToady I was hoping the implementors would just all get together and agree on an AST, just like they did a grammar, oh wait...
19:50 pasteling "pugsbot_r17185" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at http://sial.org/pbot/26583
19:51 pugsbot_r17185 joined #perl6
19:51 moritz_ ?eval 1
19:51 pugsbot_r17185 1
19:52 masak ?eval $?VERSION
19:52 pugsbot_r17185 \"6.2.13"
19:52 diakopter yeah, it seems ok now
19:52 moritz_ diakopter++ # being *bot SLAVE ;-)
19:52 fglock http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/​src/Pugs/AST/CapInternals.hs inspired kp6 AST, but it's not exactly as-is
19:52 diakopter b/c mmd is broken in pugs currently, it was always calling the {...} placeholder subs.
19:53 diakopter which led to my question on #parrot... and me repeating it here. :)
19:53 thoughtpolice joined #perl6
19:53 TimToady I'm going to have to spend a lot of time backlogging after lunch...
19:54 weinig joined #perl6
19:55 diotalevi_ joined #perl6
19:58 masak `pugs -CParse-Pretty` seems to do what I want
19:58 masak except I would prefer not to parse text at all
19:58 masak can I get the same as p5 or p6 objects?
20:00 fglock masak: pugs -CPIL1-Perl5 -e ' 1+1 '
20:01 masak yay
20:01 masak just so
20:05 [particle1 joined #perl6
20:07 fglock left #perl6
20:15 jrockway joined #perl6
20:17 szbalint joined #perl6
20:22 Lectus joined #perl6
20:43 TJCRI joined #perl6
21:23 thorat joined #perl6
21:30 vel joined #perl6
21:35 cj_ changed the nick to cj
21:35 cj TimToady: is it ready for production yet? :)
21:36 cj and did I miss anything exciting at OSCON this year?
21:40 unobe changed the nick to unobe_away
21:48 cmarcelo joined #perl6
21:49 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
21:56 dmq joined #perl6
22:07 statico joined #perl6
22:11 unobe_away changed the nick to unobe
22:13 weinig joined #perl6
22:13 xinming_ joined #perl6
22:15 vel joined #perl6
22:29 vel_ joined #perl6
22:36 weinig_ joined #perl6
22:38 Blwood joined #perl6
22:47 meppl good night
22:51 polettix joined #perl6
23:33 wilx` joined #perl6
23:36 TimToady the irc logger seems to be broken
23:36 TimToady <p><a href="/irclog/out.pl?channel=​perl6;date=2007-07-29">&larr; Previous
23:36 TimToady doesn't like the &, apparently
23:36 Limbic_Region http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclog​ger_log/perl6?date=2007-07-31,Tue
23:37 lambdabot Title: #perl6 2007-07-31,Tue, http://tinyurl.com/ynk7kv
23:37 Limbic_Region are they all broke?
23:37 perlDreamer irc.pugscode.org seems to work okay
23:39 TimToady false alarm; did a yum upgrade and it confused firefox till I restarted
23:48 weinig joined #perl6
23:50 drupek12 joined #perl6
23:54 vel joined #perl6

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo