Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-08-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 rhr joined #perl6
00:17 nowhere_man there has been no list summaries for a long time, where to get any news about Perl 6?
00:18 nowhere_man like the current roadmap or how far it is from a release
00:21 pugs_svnbot r17236 | lwall++ | typo in comment
00:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17236
00:21 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17236 - Pugs - Trac
00:22 TimToady nobody volunteered to summarize, so mostly you just have to follow along on the mailing lists and irc if you're interested
00:23 TimToady the weekly phonecall minutes still show up, posted by chromatic, but we don't discuss everything there
00:23 nowhere_man so how far is Perl 6 from a release?
00:25 TimToady depends on how much help we get
00:25 TimToady which is impossible to predict
00:25 justatheory_ iow, christmas
00:26 justatheory_ changed the nick to justatheory
00:27 TimToady if a billionaire hired about 300 of us to work on it fulltime, we could probably have it done by this Christmas
00:27 TimToady in the absence of that, we're all just working on it in our copious free time
00:27 justatheory for some other christmas. ;-P
00:28 * justatheory suspects that there might be a mythical man month problem in TimToady's "300 of us" estimate.
00:28 TimToady justatheary also suspects that the project management has been promoted to the level of its incompetence.  :)
00:29 TimToady s:2nd/a/o/
00:29 justatheory heh
00:30 TimToady fortunately, I'm just good enough at management to delegate *all* the management to others. :)
00:41 TimToady bbl &
00:49 DarkWolf84 the worst question for every project :)
00:50 DarkWolf84 And the simple answer is "when it is done"
00:52 nipotaway changed the nick to nipotan
01:04 araujo well, i liked the answer of the billionaire too
01:05 araujo :-)
01:07 DarkWolf84 if know one send him to me
01:07 DarkWolf84 :)
01:08 DarkWolf84 I like the christmas joke
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01:41 diakopter nowhere_man: would you like to help out?
01:49 nowhere_man I kind of dropped out of Perl after having used it quite much, but most of what I read about Perl 6 makes me want to try it
01:49 nowhere_man my various attempts with Pugs weren't that successful
01:50 nowhere_man I managed to get errors with tutorial code, I remember
01:50 nowhere_man not once only
01:51 diakopter nowhere_man: yes; pugs  was a [very quickly] moving target for the documentation and tutorials for quite a while.  Probably not many of them have caught up, even after its cryogenic for the past 1/2 year.
02:04 nowhere_man is there any tutorial/implementation couple I could try by now?
02:08 diakopter hm
02:11 diakopter http://www.pair.com/~comdog/Ta​lks/LearningPerl6-NPW2007.pdf
02:12 diakopter that's quite recent
02:12 diakopter should work with today-pugs.
02:12 diakopter do you have a recent pugs built?
02:14 diakopter nowhere_man: http://run.pugscode.org/ seems to be up and running (you can use it for much of those slides)
02:14 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
02:15 diakopter heh; that should be *via* your browser, since *in* your browser is actually feasible...
02:18 diakopter ?eval "hi"
02:18 diakopter hrm
02:18 pugsbot_r17185 "hi"
02:19 diakopter oh; merely slow
02:19 diakopter nowhere_man: you can also send private messages to pugsbot_r17185: e.g.  ?eval "hi"   and so forth.
02:20 nowhere_man thanks, i'll try
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05:04 nowhere_man how do junctions work? is there any design document on their implementation?
05:06 nowhere_man is it the compiler that "flattens" any expression with a junction? e.g. make « $num == any <1 2> » be « $num == 1 or $num == 2 »
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05:52 diakopter nowhere_man: here's a description of the operators: http://perlsix.org/syn/S03.html#Junctive_operators
05:52 lambdabot Title: S03
05:52 TimToady nowhere_man: no, it's a run-time determination based on the fact that the Junction type doesn't match most other types, so it ends up "autothreading"; in addition to S03 see also S09:932
05:53 TimToady basically, it'll never dispatch a Junction to a routine that isn't expecting one.
05:53 TimToady that includes things like ==
05:53 diakopter http://perlsix.org/syn/S09.html#line_932
05:53 lambdabot Title: S09
05:54 TimToady eventually it all bubbles up to a boolean context and then the logic happens
05:54 * diakopter eyes the mention of Parrot above line 932
05:56 TimToady not that most of the rest of S09 is implemented yet...
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06:05 pugs_svnbot r17237 | lwall++ | [STD] Missing syms on some regex metachars
06:05 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17237
06:05 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17237 - Pugs - Trac
06:08 justatheory score lwall
06:08 diakopter I'm wondering whether any but the most trivial of Perl6 programs (as compiled-to-disk) won't need to embed (or link to) a perl6 implementation
06:09 diakopter karma lwall
06:09 diakopter @karma lwall
06:09 lambdabot lwall has a karma of 10
06:09 justatheory I guess it doesn't pick up svnbot's ++s
06:09 thoughtpolice diakopter: you mean like a runtime?
06:09 diakopter lwall++
06:09 diakopter @karma lwall
06:09 lambdabot lwall has a karma of 11
06:10 thoughtpolice iirc lambdabot needs the karma addition to occur on the first word
06:10 kane__ lets try lwall++
06:10 kane__ @karma lwall
06:10 lambdabot lwall has a karma of 12
06:10 thoughtpolice hm.
06:10 diakopter # non-first lwall++
06:10 diakopter @karma lwall
06:10 lambdabot lwall has a karma of 13
06:10 kane__ good bot
06:10 justatheory r17237 | lwall++ | [STD] Missing syms on some regex metachars
06:10 justatheory @karma lwall
06:10 lambdabot lwall has a karma of 14
06:10 diakopter I think when lambdabot is restarted, it loses its memory
06:11 thoughtpolice diakopter: no it keeps that sort of info with it
06:11 thoughtpolice inside a State/ directory
06:11 thoughtpolice same with stuff like @where and whatnot
06:11 kane__ lwall therefor is just a lazy committer, or collects a lot of -- for other behaviour
06:11 kane__ only explenation :)
06:11 diakopter and usually it doesn't have to be restarted, since its hs runtime system can swap out any plugins without restarting.  it only restarted b/c of a power failure, according to #haskell
06:11 diakopter oh
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06:13 diakopter thoughtpolice: to answer your question, yeah
06:13 diakopter (not that my wondering was necessarily implying/assuming that is a bad thing)
06:13 thoughtpolice hm no it wouldn't be suprising to have one. :)
06:15 diakopter libp6-pugs1 libp6-parrot1
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06:25 diakopter TimToady: let's see how STD.pm is visualized by http://www.cs.duke.edu/csed/jflap/
06:25 lambdabot Title: JFLAP
06:29 diakopter I'm being facetious of course.  Someone would need to compile the grammar to their XML syntax to get those visualizations.
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06:42 thoughtpolice diakopter: wow, that looks pretty cool. :)
06:42 thoughtpolice a nice experimentation tool, at the very very least.
06:43 TimToady actually, at the moment I'm working on compiling STD down to pure pugs-compatible method calls with no regex at all.
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06:56 diakopter TimToady: is the majority of Perl-6.0.0-STD (supposed to be) parseable by a GLR implementation (such as http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~smcpeak/elkhound/ , which can generate a parser/ast-generator *in ocaml*, btw)?
06:56 lambdabot Title: Elkhound and Elsa
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06:58 pmurias morning
06:58 diakopter er, the grammar defined by that file, I mean
06:58 diakopter pmurias: 2am
06:58 diakopter TimToady: I mean, it claims to be able to parse any context-free grammar...
06:59 pmurias not here ;)
07:05 pmurias diakopter: 2am is morning in a sense ;)
07:05 TimToady diakopter: no, we're not really aiming at that
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15:06 diakopter is pugscode.org DNS still flapping?
15:07 TimToady dunno, just did an svn up okay
15:09 diakopter TimToady: do you ever use cygwin(/MinGW) while booted to Windows?
15:09 TimToady sure
15:09 TimToady it has...issues...
15:10 TimToady my main gripe about cygwin is the "Unicode, what's that?" attitude
15:13 diakopter hmm.  its gcc was having trouble finding perl's EXTERN.h yesterday, but now I don't remember which XS'd module cpan was trying to build.
15:18 diakopter I did (re)discover a way (for me) to easily swap between different $PATH setups/precendences - by prepending $PATH with an override dir, which is itself a symlink to zero or one of several path-override dirs, which themselves contain symlinks to the proper set of images I want the shell to find at different times.  Switching configs is as simple as making aliases to commands that change which override dir the master link points to.  <si
15:18 cognominal_ joined #perl6
15:18 diakopter ... that was discovered 30 years ago or something.  and there are probably recommendeder and officialer ways, but I had fun figuring it out.
15:21 DarkWolf84 joined #perl6
15:21 diakopter the reason I needed something like that is that the installed locations of some sets of these images don't (always) correspond to being in one particular bin/.  Of course, --prefix could have been used to get them into further-stratified precedence levels, but this is frankly easier.  Anyway, enough OT spewing from me for this hour.
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15:24 diakopter (<sigh> I suppose I need to then do the same with MANPATH and all the lib PATHs :()
15:26 diakopter TimToady: do you use a perl.exe built under cygwin, or activeperl, or vanilla/strawberry winperl, or do you not use a perl.exe? :)
15:30 DarkWolf84 windows...
15:31 diakopter DarkWolf84: uh huh
15:34 * DarkWolf84 sighs
15:34 DarkWolf84 I didn't see the all conversation
15:41 DarkWolf84 it's really problem with the $PATH in windows
15:42 DarkWolf84 coz there is no standart paths like /usr/bin or /lib
15:43 moritz_ re
15:43 moritz_ YaY, multibyte search in the irc logs works: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/search.pl?channel​=perl6&amp;nick=&amp;q=%E7%AB%A0%E4%BA%A6%E6%98%A5
15:44 lambdabot Title: IRC logs - Search, http://tinyurl.com/2g5l6k
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15:49 DarkWolf84 moritz_, what u use for lambdabot?
15:50 DarkWolf84 for log bot*
15:50 DarkWolf84 my mistake
15:50 daxim_ changed the nick to daxim
15:51 diakopter moritz_: good job! :)
15:51 moritz_ DarkWolf84: my self made thingy, in misc/irclog/ilbot.pl in the pugs repository
15:52 moritz_ diakopter: thanks, it was hard work with mysql :/
15:52 diakopter DarkWolf84: but cygwin provides such a dirtree...
15:55 DarkWolf84 i c
15:57 moritz_ opinion question: do a few lines (2 or 3) of context make sense in the result pages of irclog search?
15:57 kjwcode moritz_: Absolutely.
15:58 moritz_ thanks. 1:0 for context ;)
15:58 kjwcode I'd do 3-4 lines, as it's possible there would be a couple of lines of cross-talk that could skew the context.  Or make it configurable.
15:59 kjwcode s/would/could/
16:00 moritz_ first I'll make it hardcoded, and if it works I can still offer a setting for it
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16:00 kjwcode Sweet.  :)
16:02 DarkWolf84 diakopter, I never used perl on windows
16:03 TimToady diakopter: I use strawberry
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16:31 Alias_ purl, seen TimToady
16:31 Alias_ oh wait
16:32 Alias_ dammit
16:32 BinGOs like half an hour ago, dude. saying "diakopter: I use strawberry"
16:32 Alias_ ya :)
16:33 Alias_ Was kind of hoping for a product review
16:33 BinGOs "It is like fruity"
16:34 Alias_ I bought a small tub of neopolitan icecream today :)
16:34 Alias_ For photographic/logo purposes
16:35 Alias_ But damn it, it was just sitting there begging me to eat it :(
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17:18 pugs_svnbot r17238 | moritz++ | [irclog]: search provides two lines of context on either side
17:18 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17238
17:18 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17238 - Pugs - Trac
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17:43 Alias_ seen Alias_
17:43 buubot Alias_: Seen at Fri Aug 10 09:35:11 2007: <Alias_> But damn it, it was just sitting there begging me to eat it :(
17:43 Alias_ seen audreyt
17:43 buubot Alias_: Sorry, I haven't seen audreyt
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17:54 nowhere_man is there already a documentation of the Perl 6 API? the Debian package pugs-doc doesn't seem to have one
17:54 Psyche^ joined #perl6
17:56 DarkWolf84 http://perlcabal.org/syn/
17:56 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
17:57 nowhere_man what if I want the documentation of, say, the min function?
17:58 DarkWolf84 no perldoc for pugs if u mean that
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17:58 DarkWolf84 that's because perl6 is not finished yet
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18:02 nowhere_man OK
18:03 nowhere_man so I'm wondering, how is min supposed to know what the ordering of the array is?
18:03 nowhere_man is there a way to override the default?
18:03 Alias_ in cases with, say, numerically overloaded objects?
18:05 nowhere_man in any case where I store objects and I can devise a strict ordering for them
18:05 rhr nowhere_man: http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/S29.html#Ordering
18:05 lambdabot Title: S29
18:06 nowhere_man thanks
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18:17 nowhere_man so how could I get the max of a range, by using min, just to understand?
18:17 nowhere_man my @a=1..9
18:17 nowhere_man min @a, :by(gt)
18:17 nowhere_man didn't work
18:19 TimToady range objects aren't implemented in pugs yet
18:19 rhr ?eval min 1..9, :by(&infix:«>»)
18:20 pugsbot_r17185 Error: Named argument found where no matched parameter expected: ("by",Ann (Pos (MkPos "<eval>" 1 15 1 25)) (Var "&infix:>"))
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18:20 TimToady and "by" wouldn't mean that anyway.  "by" is the increment
18:21 TimToady the min listop will eventually take a comparator just like sort, but that is also not implemented
18:21 pasteling "kjwcode" at 209.17.146.129 pasted "pugs build error on OSX/x86 10.4.10." (6 lines, 365B) at http://sial.org/pbot/26789
18:22 nowhere_man TimToady: what is the increment in the context of min?
18:22 kjwcode Anyone know how to get around the error above?  I'm installing a more up-to-date XCode, but I don't know if that's going to do the trick.
18:23 TimToady if you're referring to the .min method of a range object, that isn't implemented
18:23 diakopter kjwcode: what version of gcc do you have?
18:24 kjwcode diakopter: Using 4.0.1, Apple build 5367.
18:24 diakopter you actually must use the Apple 4.0.1 one, if I recall.
18:24 diakopter ok
18:24 diakopter is this a new checkout?
18:24 kjwcode Yup, r17238.
18:25 diakopter which version of ghc?
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18:25 kjwcode ghc 6.6.1 -- Audrey's package.
18:25 diakopter hrm
18:25 diakopter (and you're sure it's actually using that particular ghc?)
18:25 TimToady okay, I see that it's going to be confusing to have an argument to min called "by".
18:26 kjwcode It's the only ghc on the system.  The error is actually a gcc error, IIRC.
18:27 diakopter kjwcode: I'm not sure why it's trying to build Universal images.  mine builds intel only
18:28 kjwcode Weird.  I'm almost sure I ran into this last time I built from source, but that was too long ago to remember what I did.
18:28 kjwcode I'm sure I'll figure it out.  :)
18:28 diakopter sorry I can't help :(
18:28 kjwcode No worries!
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18:44 kjwcode Figured it out...  Don't use ActivePerl to run Makefile.PL.  The build system seems to try to build Pugs using some of the settings of Perl, and that causes the problem (ActivePerl is universal).  MacPorts Perl appears to work.
18:46 moritz_ kjwcode: maybe you could add a hint to INSTALL
18:46 kjwcode moritz_: I was just going to do that.  :)
18:46 moritz_ kjwcode++
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18:50 thoughtpolice gah. i should probably update dip6.
18:50 thoughtpolice i'm kind of stalled on ideas right now though. :/
18:53 rindolf thoughtpolice: implement the first function.
18:53 pugs_svnbot r17239 | kjwcode++ | Add note about build failures with ActivePerl on OS X.
18:53 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17239
18:53 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17239 - Pugs - Trac
18:53 rindolf thoughtpolice: in pugs.
18:59 * moritz_ brethlessly awatis rindolfs first pugs commit
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19:59 pugs_svnbot r17240 | kjwcode++ | Smokeserv on .de domain gives 301, update to m19s28.dyndns.org.
19:59 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17240
19:59 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17240 - Pugs - Trac
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20:19 rindolf moritz_: I've already committed stuff to pugs.
20:19 moritz_ rindolf: I didn't know that :/
20:20 rindolf moritz_: this is mine - http://svn.openfoundry.org/pug​s/examples/qotw/008e/graham.pl
20:22 moritz_ rindolf: what's your svn name?
20:23 rindolf moritz_: shlomif
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20:24 moritz_ git log|grep -Ei 'rindolf|shlomif'|wc -l
20:24 moritz_ 7
20:24 moritz_ ;-)
20:24 DarkWolf84 secret commit maker :)
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20:25 fridim Hi.
20:25 diakopter fridim: hi
20:25 DarkWolf84 hi
20:26 moritz_ ?eval say "hi"
20:26 diakopter ?eval "hi"
20:26 pugsbot_r17185 OUTPUT[hi␤] Bool::True
20:26 pugsbot_r17185 "hi"
20:26 DarkWolf84 :>
20:27 DarkWolf84 online golf :>
20:27 fridim ?eval my %hash = <c 1 a 2>; my @vows  = %hash<c a>; @vows[1] = 3; %hash;
20:27 pugsbot_r17185 {("a" => "2"), ("c" => "1")}
20:28 moritz_ good
20:28 * moritz_ caresses pugsbot ;)
20:28 fridim so,  my @vows is a reference to a NEW list (or array, I don't know) created when I wrote %hash<c a> ?
20:30 moritz_ no, if it was a ref the output would be a => 3
20:30 moritz_ the assignment @vows[1]=3doesn't affect %hash
20:31 DarkWolf84 ref?
20:31 DarkWolf84 I think it was just copy
20:31 moritz_ there are no refs in p6 ;)
20:31 moritz_ and yes, it's a (shallow) copy
20:32 fridim ?eval my @vows = <ok i don't understant>; my @foo = @vows; @foo[0] = "you"; @vows;
20:32 pugsbot_r17185 ["ok", "i", "don\'t", "understant"]
20:32 fridim mh ok
20:33 moritz_ fridim: do you have a commit bit?
20:33 fridim commit bit?
20:33 moritz_ the ability to change things in the pugs repository
20:33 moritz_ ie to contribute ;)
20:33 diakopter svn commit access/account
20:33 fridim No.
20:34 diakopter PM one of us your email address and preferred username if you want one...
20:34 fridim I would know what it is otherwise :)
20:34 moritz_ if you want one, /msg or tell me or diakopter your email address ;)
20:34 moritz_ probably ;)
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20:34 fridim I'am not so easy with haskell
20:35 diakopter ah, but you don't need to know haskell to contribute.  there are plenty of ways.
20:35 moritz_ ?eval my %h = a => 1, b => 2; my @v := %h<a b>; @v[0]=5; %h
20:35 pugsbot_r17185 {("a" => 5), ("b" => 2)}
20:36 moritz_ YaY, binding++
20:36 moritz_ http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=628746 <-- a few ways to help perl6, mostly without haskell knowledge
20:36 lambdabot Title: Getting Involved with Perl 6
20:37 fridim ?eval my @foo = <ok girl>; my @vows = ("hi there", @foo); @foo = "you"; @vows[1];
20:37 DarkWolf84 I think there is job for perl programers too
20:37 pugsbot_r17185 \"ok"
20:38 fridim oups
20:38 fridim ?eval my @foo = <ok girl>; my @vows = ("hi there", @foo); @foo[1] = "you"; @vows[1];
20:38 pugsbot_r17185 \"ok"
20:38 moritz_ ?eval my @foo = <ok girl>; ("hi there", @foo)
20:38 pugsbot_r17185 ("hi there", ["ok", "girl"])
20:39 buetow ?eval my @foo = <ok girl>; ("hi there", *@foo)
20:40 pugsbot_r17185 Error: ␤Unexpected "foo"␤expecting term postfix, operator or ")"
20:40 moritz_ anyway, bed time for me ;)
20:40 fridim I don't understand my \"ok"
20:40 DarkWolf84 strange
20:40 DarkWolf84 sytax
20:40 fridim why it is not ["ok", "girl"] ?
20:40 fridim or ["ok", "you"]
20:41 DarkWolf84 :)
20:42 buetow hmm
20:43 DarkWolf84 ?eval  << "hi there" my @foo = <ok girl> >>
20:43 pugsbot_r17185 ("hi there", "my", "\@foo", "=", "<ok", "girl>")
20:44 DarkWolf84 oops
20:44 DarkWolf84 ?eval  ( "hi there", my @foo = <ok girl> )
20:44 pugs_svnbot r17241 | kjwcode++ | Replace all mentions of m19s28.vlinux.de with m19s28.dyndns.org for
20:44 pugs_svnbot r17241 | kjwcode++ | consistency.  Checked to make sure the files are indeed available.
20:44 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17241
20:44 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17241 - Pugs - Trac
20:44 pugsbot_r17185 ("hi there", ["ok", "girl"])
20:44 DarkWolf84 works
20:45 DarkWolf84 and it's short
20:45 fridim ?eval my @v = ("hi there", my @foo = <ok girl>); @v[1];
20:45 pugsbot_r17185 \"ok"
20:46 DarkWolf84 I don't understand the full idea of @@
20:47 fridim ?eval my @v = ("hi there", my @foo = <ok girl>); @v[2];
20:47 pugsbot_r17185 \"girl"
20:47 fridim DarkWolf84, neither do I
20:51 DarkWolf84 $eval my @@foo = <hello world>~[ok qrty]
20:51 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = <hello world>~[ok qrty]
20:51 pugsbot_r17185 Error: No such subroutine: "&ok"
20:51 DarkWolf84 oops
20:52 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = <hello world>~([ok qrty])
20:52 pugsbot_r17185 Error: No such subroutine: "&ok"
20:52 DarkWolf84 ok
20:52 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = <<hello world [ok qrty]>>
20:52 pugsbot_r17185 ["hello", "world", "[ok", "qrty]"]
20:53 DarkWolf84 not that I want
20:54 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = <<hello world <ok qrty>>>
20:54 pugsbot_r17185 Error: ␤Unexpected "@@foo"␤expecting "=", context, ":" or "("
20:54 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = <hello world <ok qrty>>
20:54 pugsbot_r17185 ["hello", "world", "<ok", "qrty>"]
20:54 DarkWolf84 the same
20:55 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = ('hello' 'world' <ok qrty>)
20:55 pugsbot_r17185 Error: ␤Unexpected "@@foo"␤expecting "=", operator, ")", context, ":" or "("
20:55 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = ('hello' 'world' ['ok' 'qrty'])
20:55 pugsbot_r17185 Error: ␤Unexpected "@@foo"␤expecting "=", operator, ")", context, ":" or "("
20:56 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = ('hello', 'world', ['ok', 'qrty'])
20:56 pugsbot_r17185 ["hello", "world", ["ok", "qrty"]]
20:56 DarkWolf84 that's better
20:57 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo[2][1] = ('hello', 'world', ['ok', 'qrty'])
20:57 pugsbot_r17185 ["hello", "world", ["ok", "qrty"]]
20:57 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo[2] = ('hello', 'world', ['ok', 'qrty'])
20:57 pugsbot_r17185 ["hello", "world", ["ok", "qrty"]]
20:57 DarkWolf84 ?eval my @@foo = ('hello', 'world', ['ok', 'qrty']); @@foo[2][1]
20:57 pugsbot_r17185 \"qrty"
20:58 DarkWolf84 works
20:58 DarkWolf84 I've got the idea
20:59 DarkWolf84 sorry for the flood
21:02 DarkWolf84 fridim, array of arays is just array of anonymous  captures
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