Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-09-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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08:39 moritz_ good morning ;)
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09:15 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
09:15 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
09:18 pmurias joined #perl6
09:18 pmurias hi
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09:24 moritz_ hi pmurias ;)
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09:28 * pmurias is in a dilemma whether to implement double quotes or try to make 05-code-inside-rule.t work in kp6
09:28 masak joined #perl6
09:29 moritz_ well, do both ;)
09:29 moritz_ #pugs rand()
09:29 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[0.7210965431810116␤]
09:30 pmurias moritz_: the obvious choice
09:30 pmurias :)
09:30 masak morning all
09:30 moritz_ #pugs if rand() < 0.5 { print "double quoted strings" } print { say "05-code-inside-rule.t" }; say " first";
09:30 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<SubBlock(<anon>)> first␤]
09:31 pmurias masak: morning
09:31 moritz_ #pugs if rand() < 0.5 { print "double quoted strings" } else { print "05-code-inside-rule.t" }; say " first";
09:31 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[05-code-inside-rule.t first␤]
09:32 masak I'm afraid to admit that the pugs bug I found yesterday kept me up way too long into the night
09:32 masak that's a first for me: sleeplessness by pugs bug
09:33 masak I didn't solve it, but I gained some further insight into the architecture of pugs
09:33 masak and I trimmed down the problem itself into as few lines as possible
09:33 masak so I guess it wasn't a total waste
09:34 masak question: when a test failure only manifests through the use of a module, what is the proper placement of that module? should I still put it in ext/?
09:35 pugs_svnbot r17595 | moritz++ | [evalbot] added help message, updated TODO
09:35 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17595
09:35 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17595 - Pugs - Trac
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09:38 moritz_ masak: yes, but document it ;)
09:39 moritz_ masak: what was the bug btw?
09:40 moritz_ nobody really expects ext/ to be BugFree[tm]
09:41 moritz_ exp_evalbot: help
09:41 exp_evalbot moritz_: Usage: <\#(nqp|pugs|p6|eval|kp6) $perl6_program>
09:41 masak moritz_: the bug is disturbing to say the least
09:42 masak I will put together a nopaste for you to demonstrate
09:42 masak commit coming shortly, too
09:43 moritz_ don't hurry for me, I'll be off to breakfast soon ;)
09:43 moritz_ but I'll backlog
09:43 masak sounds good
09:44 moritz_ my girlfriend is preparing scones atm ;)
09:44 masak woot
09:44 masak :)
09:45 moritz_ normally I do the cooking (like pancakes for breakfast), so it's a nice change ;)
09:46 masak I'd say
09:49 moritz_ btw why is it so hard to write a haskell debugger? is it because the execution modell is quite different from the way the code is written?
09:51 masak it doesn't sound overly hard
09:51 masak but debugging would probably not be very much like execution, no
09:51 masak you wouldn't want to see all the massive optimizations when debugging
09:51 moritz_ I assumed it was hard because the debugger for ghc was implemted rather lated
09:52 moritz_ s/lated/late/
09:52 masak there's a debugger for ghc? where? where?
09:52 * masak needs it badly
09:52 masak I think
09:52 moritz_ I thought I heard there was an effort to write one
09:53 moritz_ but my haskell knwledge is dangerously incomplete
09:53 masak @google ghc debugger
09:53 lambdabot http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/598
09:53 lambdabot Title: #598 (GHC Debugger) - GHC - Trac
09:53 masak wow
09:59 pmurias #pugs my $a=[1];say $a[0];
09:59 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
09:59 pmurias #pugs my $a=[1];say $a[-1];
09:59 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
10:00 moritz_ it should really be [*-1[, but that is NYI in pugs
10:00 moritz_ s:2nd/'['/]/
10:01 masak hm, maybe I'll know enough soon to be able to implement it
10:01 masak it doesn't look impossible
10:04 pmurias moritz_: there seems to be hat for haskell debuginh
10:04 pmurias *debuging
10:04 masak hat?
10:04 pmurias yes
10:04 lumi There's an interactive debugger in ghc 6.7
10:05 * masak downloads ghc 6.7
10:05 pmurias http://www.haskell.org/hat/
10:05 lambdabot Title: Hat - the Haskell Tracer
10:05 masak pmurias: nice
10:05 pmurias haven't tried it, but it looks much more usefull then the standart imperative debugger
10:07 pmurias *standard
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10:08 * pmurias needs @array[*-1] in mp6
10:10 pmurias @array[0-1] works :)
10:10 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
10:39 pugs_svnbot r17596 | masak++ | [t/builtins/arrays/]
10:39 pugs_svnbot r17596 | masak++ | * here is the new pugs bug, in all its glory:
10:39 pugs_svnbot r17596 | masak++ | ** it seems that arrays initialized with "my" (but not assigned to)
10:39 pugs_svnbot r17596 | masak++ |    in subs called from outside the method, are not initialized
10:39 pugs_svnbot r17596 | masak++ |    properly and contain vestiges from earlier calls
10:39 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17596
10:39 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17596 - Pugs - Trac
10:41 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.204.78 pasted "A demonstration of the array init bug" (43 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/27259
10:41 pugs_svnbot r17597 | masak++ | removed outdated comment about being in ext/
10:41 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17597
10:41 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17597 - Pugs - Trac
10:47 moritz_ scones take up less spaceif aligned to hexagonal lattice ;)
10:48 masak heh.
10:48 masak yes, that should be the most area-efficient arrangement for roughly circular scones
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11:00 masak lunch &
11:01 Patterner Learn from Battle For Wesnoth :)
11:20 moritz_ learn from  math courses ;)
11:21 pmurias renormalist: hi
11:21 pugs_svnbot r17598 | pmurias++ | [kp6] emitting inner code blocks in rules as seperate methods,unfortunatly self gets scrambled
11:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17598
11:21 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17598 - Pugs - Trac
11:27 renormalist pmurias: hi
11:27 lambdabot renormalist: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:27 moritz_ compilation of IO.pm is screwed for me (in kp6): COMPILE lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl6/IO.pm lib5/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl6/IO.pm
11:27 moritz_ Can't load ExtractRuleBlock plugin: Can't locate KindaPerl6/Visitor/ExtractRuleBlock.pm in @INC
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11:28 renormalist moritz_: since when?
11:28 moritz_ I don't know, perhaps a few days, perhaps since yesterday
11:29 moritz_ maybe somebody forgot to svn add ExtractRuleBlock.pm?
11:30 pmurias yes
11:30 pmurias sorry
11:30 pugs_svnbot r17599 | pmurias++ | [kp6] files i forgot to add
11:30 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17599
11:30 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17599 - Pugs - Trac
11:31 pmurias it's svk add actualy
11:31 moritz_ ;)
11:32 pmurias i found the bug which screws up self, will fix it after lunch&
11:32 moritz_ 01-sanity/07-try.t uses unless {..} else {..} ;)
11:32 pmurias or somebody else can make sub receive sigs withought self (Grammar problem) ealier
11:33 pmurias moritz_: fix it then :)
11:33 moritz_ I'm on it ;)
11:33 pmurias *without
11:34 moritz_ revision 17600, YaY
11:35 moritz_ is it legal to use a reference to a sub before declaring it?
11:35 pugs_svnbot r17600 | moritz++ | t/01-sanity/07-try.t: removed obsolete unless...else
11:35 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17600
11:35 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17600 - Pugs - Trac
11:35 moritz_ that's used in t/blocks/goto.t
11:41 pugs_svnbot r17601 | moritz++ | t/builtins/undef.t: removed obsolete unless...else
11:41 pugs_svnbot r17602 | moritz++ | removed t/oo/from_moose/000_load.t (OO is bulitin ;)
11:41 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17602
11:41 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17602 - Pugs - Trac
11:47 pugs_svnbot r17603 | moritz++ | t/operators/flip-flop.t: removed obsolete unless..else
11:47 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17603
11:47 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17603 - Pugs - Trac
11:48 moritz_ in the test suite I get some errors like that:
11:48 moritz_ pugs: Internal error: Unknown pseudo-assignment form:Syn "=" [Var "$*_",Val (VInt 0)]
11:48 moritz_ is that new?
11:48 moritz_ for example in statements/given.t
11:50 pugs_svnbot r17604 | moritz++ | t/unspecced/sort.t: removed obsolete unless...else
11:50 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17604
11:50 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17604 - Pugs - Trac
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11:54 rhr gone for 2 weeks &
11:54 moritz_ rhr: have fun ;)
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12:14 pugs_svnbot r17605 | moritz++ | SLAVES: added myself for exp_evalbot
12:14 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17605
12:14 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17605 - Pugs - Trac
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13:06 pugs_svnbot r17606 | masak++ | [File::Spec::Win32]
13:06 pugs_svnbot r17606 | masak++ | * worked around the strange array init bug
13:06 pugs_svnbot r17606 | masak++ | * module tests now pass
13:06 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17606
13:06 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17606 - Pugs - Trac
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13:44 nwc10 does Flavio Glock appear here?
13:44 masak nwc10: yes
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13:50 avar nwc10: as flgock
13:50 avar *fglock
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13:52 masak #pugs use File::Util; my $f = File::Util.new; $f.existent('pugs')
13:52 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[pugs: *** Unsafe function 'use' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/9v7MZb8zeB line 1, column 1␤]
13:52 masak ah, even use is unsafe?
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14:09 pmurias use is very unsafe
14:10 masak pmurias: in itself?
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14:12 pmurias i probably overestimated it's unsafnes ;)
14:12 masak pmurias: maybe, maybe not. I just don't see it right now
14:13 pmurias you can load code from the disk
14:13 pmurias so it's sort of io
14:13 masak yes...
14:13 masak but io in itself is ok, right?
14:14 masak I mean, there's a fixed number of modules on the server behind the eval bot
14:14 masak it's the things that the loaded code might do that are potentially dangerous
14:14 pmurias yes
14:15 pmurias well you might want to keep some code private
14:15 masak please elaborate
14:15 masak still don't see how it merits banning use
14:16 pmurias in the case of evalbot it dosn't make sense to ban it
14:16 masak no, not as far as I can see right now
14:17 pmurias but allowing banning anything else dosn't make sense as well as the evalbot is probably in a sandbox of some sort
14:18 pmurias maybe restricting the @INC to a predefined directory would be enough
14:18 pmurias and no forgein modules
14:19 pmurias like use DBI:from<perl5>
14:20 masak yeah, good point
14:31 pmurias it's no use to have partial unsafeness checking
14:32 masak true -- and there is probably undecidability creeping in there somewhere, so better to prohibit defensively
14:39 pmurias having the evalbot runing in unsafe mode in a good enough sandbox might be a better option
14:40 masak hm, yes
14:40 masak I'd still be a bit careful with arbritary system calls and the like
14:42 Tene Perhaps running on a read-only fs with no network access and proper ulimits and such.
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14:42 masak yes
14:44 moritz_ I don't really care about anything but DOS attacks
14:44 moritz_ fork bombs and the like are the most dangerous thing for the evalbot
14:44 moritz_ or something that fills up the disc space
14:45 moritz_ otherwise evalbot runs with low permissions in a chroot that is used for nothing else
14:45 moritz_ still I'd like to see safe/unsafe flags per namespace/module/whatever
14:46 moritz_ for example I'd consider Date::Calc to be "safe" and POSIX to be "unsafe"
14:46 masak moritz_: did you take a look at the array init bug in pugs? what do you think about it?
14:46 masak moritz_: maybe that would be a good enough idea, whitelisting modules
14:48 moritz_ masak: re array bug: weird indeed
14:49 masak moritz_: I wouldn't have excpected such a bug to still remain in pugs, shaky as it sometimes is
14:49 masak unfortunately, I don't have the required Haskell-fu to fix it yet
14:50 masak in pugs source, I repeatedly ran into something called pads, which seems a scary context somehow related to monads
14:50 pmurias lexical pads?
14:50 masak yes
14:50 * moritz_ has heard that as well ;)
14:50 masak they're called Pad in pugs source
14:50 masak I know what they are
14:50 moritz_ explain! ;)
14:50 masak ok :)
14:51 masak they are environments tied to blocks of code containing variables bound to values
14:51 moritz_ re whitelisting... that's ugly, but workable ;)
14:52 masak you need many pads because the same name might connote different values in different parts of a p6 file
14:52 masak basically, ever subrouting has a pad
14:52 moritz_ and an assignment basically changes a pad entry?
14:52 masak dunno
14:52 masak conceivably
14:52 moritz_ and a declaration adds a slot, presumably
14:53 masak anyway, this all makes sense re the current bug, since something apparently is carried over from one call to the next
14:53 masak or rather (as I've seen by playing around with it) from the first call to all subsequent ones
14:53 masak we're basically seeing some unintended pad contamination
14:54 masak which only occurs in exported subs
14:55 masak I'm stuck with solving it because I cannot find the place in Eval.hs where "my" declarations are evaluated
14:55 masak if anyone from the future is reading this, please send a patch back to me somehow. kthxbai
14:55 pugs_svnbot r17607 | pmurias++ | [kp6] sub {} no longer gets $self as the invocant
14:55 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17607
14:55 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17607 - Pugs - Trac
14:58 moritz_ masak: did you see src/Pugs/Eval/Var.hs? that contains a rather verbose explanation of findSub etc.
15:00 masak moritz_: I found it and read it, yes
15:01 masak didn't find anything about declarations, though
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15:44 pugs_svnbot r17608 | pmurias++ | [kp6] code inside rules works at last
15:44 pugs_svnbot r17608 | pmurias++ | fixed GLOBAL::print
15:44 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17608
15:44 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17608 - Pugs - Trac
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15:50 pmurias that proved a difficult test to fix
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15:54 mncharity pmurias++
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18:40 pmurias kp6 compiles Grammar.pm
18:40 pmurias :)
18:40 Tene Next step: STD.pm? ;)
18:41 pmurias :)
18:41 moritz_ wow, I'm impressed
18:41 pmurias well the next step is to check if it does it correctly
18:42 pmurias shower&
18:43 b_jonas lol
18:43 DarkWolf84 great
18:43 DarkWolf84 :)
18:56 pmurias b
19:10 moritz_ when I try to run the test suite with Grammar.pm compiled by kp6 I get a message 'Can't locate object method "comp_unit" via package "KindaPerl6::Grammar" at kp6-perl5.pl line 99'
19:13 moritz_ all the Grammar/*.pm compile at least
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19:15 pmurias moritz_: code compiled by kp6 and mp6 isn't compatible
19:17 moritz_ seems like, yes
19:17 pmurias you would need the whole compiler compiled by kp6, and a new kp6-perl5.pl
19:18 pmurias what i think is needed right now is a make target which compiles lib with kp6 to a diffrent dir
19:22 moritz_ I'm trying to recompile all of kp6 now to tmp/
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19:24 moritz_ no syntax errors so far
19:29 pmurias what i'm worried about is that grammars compiled with kp6 will be too slow
19:29 moritz_ Grammar.__rule_block1 seems to get defined/emitted twice
19:30 moritz_ perhaps a problem with MOP.pm
19:30 pmurias nay
19:30 pmurias i know what causes that
19:31 pmurias did all files compile?
19:31 moritz_ yes
19:32 pmurias could you check them in?
19:32 moritz_ 'course
19:33 pugs_svnbot r17609 | moritz++ | [kp6] added bootstrap/ which contains a kp6 image compiled with kp6
19:33 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17609
19:33 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17609 - Pugs - Trac
19:34 moritz_ I can write a little bootstrap.pl script as well
19:35 avar moritz_: does bootstrap/ work without mp6 on your system?
19:35 moritz_ avar: it doesn't work at all ;)
19:35 pmurias moritz_: a make target would be better than a script
19:38 moritz_ pmurias: I'm not that confident with Makefiles...
19:38 moritz_ pmurias: and usually if you change kp6 you want to recompile all of, don't you?
19:39 pmurias not always
19:40 pmurias you might want to use a stable version of kp6 and recompile only the changed part
19:40 DarkWolf84 cool kp6 is now bootstraped
19:40 DarkWolf84 :)
19:40 moritz_ DarkWolf84: now, not quite
19:40 DarkWolf84 why?
19:41 moritz_ DarkWolf84: it doesn't throw any syntax errors on itself, but it doesn't run yet
19:41 DarkWolf84 I had a problem making 'make clean && make'
19:42 DarkWolf84 that for kp6
19:45 pmurias make clean screws up kp6
19:46 moritz_ make forcerecompile; make is the way to go
19:47 pmurias make forcerecompile is redundant
19:47 pmurias just use make -B
19:50 b_jonas or make clean compile
19:52 pmurias NO! do not use make clean
19:52 DarkWolf84 I know that allready
19:52 DarkWolf84 :)
19:54 pugs_svnbot r17610 | pmurias++ | [kp6] Makefile complains if not used properly
19:54 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17610
19:54 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17610 - Pugs - Trac
19:55 avar moritz_++ # working on bootstrap
19:57 pugs_svnbot r17611 | pmurias++ | [kp6] fixed typo
19:57 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17611
19:57 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17611 - Pugs - Trac
20:00 pugs_svnbot r17612 | pmurias++ | [kp6] failing test for 'for'
20:00 pugs_svnbot r17612 | pmurias++ | s/prim/prime/
20:00 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17612
20:01 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17612 - Pugs - Trac
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20:04 moritz_ more bootstrapping tomorrow, bed &
20:06 pmurias sleep&
20:07 weinig joined #perl6
20:07 pmurias and a bit of Compiling with Continuations, Continued
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23:17 meppl good night
23:22 DarkWolf84 night
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