Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-09-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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04:51 DarkWolf84 hi there
04:51 DarkWolf84 :)
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05:20 agentzh hi, DarkWolf84
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06:59 moritz_ good morning ;)
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08:50 moritz_ an opinion question: should docs/Perl6/Perl5/Differences.pod be kept short and concise, or should it be made more comprehensive?
08:51 masak moritz_: maybe short explanations with further references to long ones in individual .pod files in docs/Perl6/Perl5/Differences/
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08:57 moritz_ masak: sounds good
09:02 masak moritz_: doing neither and both at the same time. I guess that's the natural solution to everything from a Swedish perspective
09:02 masak (we're good a compromising)
09:02 masak s/a/at/
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09:05 moritz_ sweden++
09:05 masak :)
09:06 masak yes... the middle way is good most of the time
09:06 moritz_ (actually the things I hear recently about sweden are not that good... like a person id for everybody, sever problems with privacy etc.)
09:07 masak I know. I'm pretty actively opposing the privacy things
09:07 masak and ID for everybody, that's been here a long time I think
09:07 masak that's just business as usual in Sweden
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09:08 moritz_ I mean an ID is not a bad thing, as long as you can't do anything with it unless you have special privileges
09:08 masak hm
09:08 masak I don't think we have gone that far yet, no
09:09 moritz_ name+date of birth pretty much serves as an ID otherwise
09:09 masak an ID still feels comparable to a passport or a drivers licence: it identifies you uniquely
09:09 masak but the privacy things worry me
09:10 moritz_ apart from that I sympathize with the scandinavian countries...
09:10 masak strangely enough, Piratpartiet is the first political party that brings issues to the table which I even care about
09:10 moritz_ and my girlfriend is half norwegean ;)
09:10 moritz_ masak: but currently they don't get that much votes, do they?
09:10 masak no, not very many
09:11 masak only in high schools and stuff
09:11 moritz_ that's sad
09:11 masak people who don't yet have voting rights
09:11 masak it shows, if nothing else, that there's a generation divide
09:11 masak the elder generation criminalizes the younger
09:12 moritz_ which will eventually strike back by reducing pensions ;)
09:12 moritz_ but seriously, we have similar problems in Germany
09:13 masak hm, reducing pensions would be like hitting yourself in a sense
09:13 moritz_ with a minister for inner affair who wants to put everyone under surveilance and has no feeling for privacy
09:13 masak plus, I'm not sure the young generation is ever concerted enough to do anything as a unit
09:13 masak yes, that's sad
09:14 moritz_ it's pretty clear that the german pension system is going bankrupt
09:14 moritz_ so everybody who cares (and can) builds pension fonds privately
09:14 masak there are silent problems stemming from the Age Revolution, too
09:14 masak people live longer and reach their actual pension age later than at 65
09:15 moritz_ it's raised to 67 now :/
09:15 masak probably not enough
09:15 moritz_ aye
09:16 masak Sweden is thinking of recording all their mobile phone traffic
09:16 masak that's just insane
09:16 moritz_ it is
09:17 * moritz_ wants more people to use cryptography
09:18 moritz_ we need a good crypto api in Perl 6 (back to topic ;)
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10:11 riffraff ciao
10:14 moritz_ hi riffraff ;)
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11:18 moritz_ since most tests pass with kp6-kp6, can I consider kp6 to be bootstrapped?
11:39 fglock moritz_: not yet, the kp6-kp6 tests dont't test for bootstrapping
11:39 fglock they are runtime tests
11:40 moritz_ but it's an kp6 image compiled by kp6, isn't it?
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11:46 fglock moritz_: yes, but it needs some fixes before it can replace kp6-mp6
11:47 moritz_ fglock: ok
11:47 fglock kp6-kp6 can't compile itself yet
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12:10 fglock the original kp6 roadmap didn't mean to bootstrap so early
12:11 moritz_ so why was it attempted? because kp6 is much more hackable than mp6?
12:17 fglock side-projects are good for investigating problems and alternatives
12:18 fglock and because bootstrapping is fun
12:19 moritz_ -Ofun++
12:21 DarkWolf84 and that gives more bootstraping experience :)
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12:24 fglock it also depends on what you mean by bootstrapping, plain kp6 already has a bunch of code written in Perl6 (junctions, multis, array, pair, ...)
12:25 fglock kp6-kp6 is basically migrating the calling conventions in the grammar, from mp6 to kp6
12:25 DarkWolf84 that's  what I mean
12:26 DarkWolf84 most of the p6 syntax is done
12:26 DarkWolf84 :)
12:26 DarkWolf84 or just kp6 one
12:28 fglock kp6 grammar is still incomplete, the next project phase would be to fix it
12:28 fglock by merging STD chunks into it
12:30 DarkWolf84 I'm curious about emiting executables and how this will be done
12:30 moritz_ DarkWolf84: then write an emitter for a compileable language ;)
12:30 DarkWolf84 this things bootstraping and grammar are new things to me
12:31 fglock DarkWolf84: you mean binaries?
12:31 DarkWolf84 yes
12:32 fglock it would be possible to emit C right now
12:32 fglock but actually making it work requires a lot of work
12:33 fglock writing the C libraries
12:34 moritz_ even though C has no BEGIN blocks?
12:35 fglock the emitted code has no BEGIN blocks
12:35 fglock they are executed at compile time
12:35 moritz_ it's no fun writing libraries for dynamic lists, hashes and strings in C ;)
12:35 fglock i think we can reuse existing libs
12:36 moritz_ the emitted p5 code has BEGIN blocks
12:36 moritz_ but they might be an artefact of the p5 emitter
12:36 fglock moritz_: that's because we are using native perl5 pads
12:37 fglock but C pads would be just a data structure
12:37 fglock Parrot is another option, of course
12:38 fglock and kp6 could even emit nqp code
12:39 moritz_ and parrot supports virtually all of p6 OO, so we wouldn't have to emulate OO
12:40 DarkWolf84 so p6-p6 will use parrot?
12:41 moritz_ some day perhaps, yes
12:41 moritz_ that's what parrot is being made for
12:41 moritz_ but it doesn't mean that all implementations must use it
12:47 fglock lunch &
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12:56 xinming 20:26 < fglock> DarkWolf84: you mean binaries?
12:56 xinming Oops. sorry.
12:56 xinming In windows, clicked right button, and didn't notice the putty is activeated. >_<
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12:57 DarkWolf84 np :)
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16:02 DarkWolf84 #pugs print pi; print e;
16:02 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[3.141592653589793*** No such subroutine: "&e"␤    at /tmp/mBke6tbUj4 line 1, column 17-18␤]
16:03 DarkWolf84 is there the number for e?
16:03 moritz_ I seem to recall it's Math.e or Math::e or some such
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16:04 moritz_ we had that disussion on p6c
16:05 moritz_ oh way, if you `use Num :constants;' then you have e and pi
16:05 moritz_ #pugs use Num :constants; say pi
16:05 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[pugs: *** No such subroutine: "&require_Num"␤    at /tmp/r39Cqq83QX line 1, column 1␤]
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16:06 DarkWolf84 pi works without use
16:06 moritz_ #pugs sayNum::pi
16:06 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&sayNum::pi"␤    at /tmp/D71EPbS5OC line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
16:06 DarkWolf84 #pugs print pi
16:06 moritz_ #pugs say Num::pi
16:06 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[3.141592653589793]
16:06 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&Num::pi"␤    at /tmp/ocI6jFGnpz line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤]
16:06 moritz_ Num::pi should work, pi not
16:06 DarkWolf84 but pi worked
16:07 DarkWolf84 as a global var
16:07 moritz_ it's not a var (it doesn't have a sigil)
16:08 DarkWolf84 s/var/const/
16:08 moritz_ where are sigil less constants defined
16:09 masak we have sigil-less constants? :/
16:09 moritz_ I'm asking that ;)
16:09 DarkWolf84 maybe it's a function then
16:09 DarkWolf84 sub*
16:09 masak that, strangely, would be ok
16:10 masak by me
16:10 moritz_ aye
16:10 moritz_ still, it shouldn't be in ::GLOBAL ?
16:10 moritz_ t/builtins/math/pi.t calls pi() as a sub
16:12 moritz_ or is there another definition of pi?
16:14 moritz_ doesn't seem so
16:21 pugs_svnbot r17698 | moritz++ | updated t/builtins/math/pi.t to current synopsis
16:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17698
16:21 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17698 - Pugs - Trac
16:24 masak I must say I prefer writing pi to writing Num::pi every time ;)
16:24 masak but a rebind in my programs would solve that
16:24 moritz_ you can 'use Num :constants;'
16:25 moritz_ perl5.10.0 -E 'say "YaY"'
16:25 moritz_ YaY
16:25 moritz_ note the version number ;)
16:26 rgs YaY.
16:26 masak cool
16:27 PerlJam 5.10 was finally released?
16:27 moritz_ not released
16:28 moritz_ but the version number of blead is 5.10 now
16:28 moritz_ which means it can't take too long now
16:28 rgs IT CAN'T IT CAN'T
16:28 PerlJam well it was planned to be here in Sept. So there's still time  :)
16:29 rgs various small problems still need cleaning, but I hope a RC soon
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16:34 TimToady s:g/err/orelse/
16:35 rgs TimToady: uugh
16:35 masak why?
16:35 TimToady logic programming
16:35 TimToady and readability
16:35 * masak liked err
16:35 masak not much-despised by me
16:36 * PerlJam still likes "err"
16:36 rgs it's not obvious that the difference between or and orelse is definedness
16:36 TimToady please see email
16:36 * masak is reading it now
16:37 moritz_ TimToady: on p5p?
16:37 PerlJam moritz_: p6l
16:37 TimToady private cc to rgs, but he may forward if he likes
16:37 moritz_ ah, read it
16:38 moritz_ I liked 'err' as well, 'dor' needs more explanation IMHO
16:38 moritz_ 'orelse' is ok, though
16:38 rgs I haven't received anything yet
16:38 Juerd I'd almost suggest ifundef
16:38 Juerd But that's one char longer again
16:38 szbalint I like the move away from err, it was too close to error.
16:39 TimToady logic programming is about success/failure, which definedness is just the underlying mechanism indicating success
16:39 Juerd It's immediately fully obvious what it does though.
16:39 PerlJam "andthen" and "orelse" seem a tad forced, but I can live with them  :-)
16:39 TimToady I'm forcing them.  :)
16:39 Juerd $foo ifundef $bar
16:39 Juerd $foo orelse $bar
16:39 Juerd $foo dor $bar
16:39 Juerd $foo err $bar
16:39 TimToady foo() orelse fail
16:39 Juerd In order of obviousness, from my perspective
16:39 TimToady immediately obvious
16:39 moritz_ I seem to recall that Eiffel uses 'orelse' or some such for guaranteed short circuit or
16:39 Juerd "foo or fail" and "foo orelse fail" read the same to me
16:40 TimToady Ada did
16:40 * moritz_ never used or learned ada
16:40 moritz_ but eiffel is based on Ada syntax I was told
16:40 masak now that we have orelse, what's the remaining uses of or?
16:41 PerlJam I thought eiffel predates Ada.
16:41 TimToady it's still just a low precedence ||
16:41 PerlJam (or perhaps that's just how I ran into them)
16:41 TimToady but for STD I kept running into the need for the logic programming ops that can bind intermediate results
16:42 Juerd Actually, what's the use for defined-or for *failure handling*, given that we can now easily "return 0 but true;"?
16:42 TimToady so that I can do hypothesis chaining
16:42 moritz_ anybody inclined to update the test suite?
16:42 Juerd Why use definedness to indicate success?
16:42 TimToady in my mind, any use of "but" is a code smell.
16:42 Juerd "but" should be an alias for "and"
16:42 TimToady because fail returns something undefined
16:42 Juerd if $foo but not $bar { ... }
16:42 [particle] TimToady: maybe you should rename it 'butt' to make that more obvious ;)
16:43 moritz_ [particle]: lol ;)
16:44 TimToady basically, use of mixins indicate you didn't do a role somewhere you probably should have
16:44 TimToady *indicates
16:45 [particle] 0 but True|False
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16:52 masak moritz_: I could, just a moment
16:52 TimToady hang on, I'm doing it
16:52 masak oki
16:52 moritz_ I'm trying to hack s/err/orelse/ into pugs
16:52 masak guess that's only fair :)
16:52 TimToady need to change pugs at same time
16:53 TimToady right
16:53 TimToady I was just grepping the whole pugs dir
16:53 TimToady including pugs and t
16:53 moritz_ I don't have much success, though
16:53 masak moritz_: why not?
16:54 moritz_ once somebody hacks it in, I can take care of the vim file, and ext/
16:54 TimToady just let me do it all
16:54 moritz_ masak: I don't know which instances to replace
16:54 masak TimToady: do it, orelse ;)
16:54 TimToady and then?... :)
16:54 moritz_ the problem is that 'err' is sometimes used for errors
16:54 TimToady and then and then and then and then....
16:55 TimToady I'll figger it out
16:55 moritz_ TimToady, our chief haskell hacker ;)
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16:57 TimToady there's really not much much to change in pugs.  It immediately remaps to //
16:57 TimToady which isn't quite according to current spec, but close enough, given $! is already bound by fail
16:58 masak mm
16:58 masak maybe devise a test which exhibits the diff'rence?
16:59 rgs andthen makes sense, once you have orelse
17:00 rgs but days before a RC, I wouldn't add a new operator to perl 5...
17:00 pugs_svnbot r17699 | moritz++ | vim syntax file: added 'orelse', 'andthen'
17:00 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17699
17:00 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17699 - Pugs - Trac
17:00 moritz_ but it's 7 chars for one op... ;)
17:01 TimToady I'd stick with // for 5.10, probably
17:02 rgs TimToady: yes, and add orelse and andthen later. hopefully the feature pragma makes that easier
17:02 rgs I'll remove "err" from 5.10, still.
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17:05 pmurias hi
17:06 moritz_ hi pmurias
17:07 moritz_ no 'err' in ext/
17:08 TimToady some js with err though...
17:11 DarkWolf84 no more err?
17:12 DarkWolf84 why is that
17:13 moritz_ DarkWolf84: read p5p ;/
17:14 DarkWolf84 sorry I don't understand
17:16 moritz_ on the perl5porters mailing list there was a discussion on how that op should be named
17:18 fglock pmurias: hi
17:26 pmurias fglock: check if this test is written correctly
17:26 pugs_svnbot r17700 | pmurias++ | [kp6] a very simple token test
17:26 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17700
17:26 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17700 - Pugs - Trac
17:28 pmurias it fails and i'm not sure if i invoke the rule correctly
17:28 fglock looking
17:31 fglock it looks like a new error, thhis is no longer working: perl kp6-mp6-perl5.pl --perl5rx < examples/token-test.pl
17:31 fglock this
17:32 pmurias fglock: is the test correct
17:32 pmurias ?
17:32 fglock it looks ok, and it should work
17:33 pmurias it dosn't here
17:33 fglock it doesn't here either
17:35 pmurias i'm trying to write a simple meta model in kp6
17:35 pmurias is it ok to add an Unboxed class, and make ::DISPATCH autobox things which aren't kp6 objects
17:35 fglock hmm - it works if you use { 'foo' } instead of { foo }
17:35 pmurias ?
17:36 fglock i'd rather handle autoboxing at compile-time
17:37 fglock hmm
17:40 pmurias fglock: yes... int,str might be better
17:40 fglock i think you need to use a non-oo language to write the metamodel
17:41 fglock and then define 'class' and such using macros
17:41 pmurias fglock: p6 is planned to allow having custom metamodels
17:42 pmurias what i think you do is have your new meta model use the old one
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17:45 pugs_svnbot r17701 | lwall++ | s:g/err/orelse/
17:45 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17701
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17:45 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17701 - Pugs - Trac
17:47 pmurias fglock: the example i commited requires two things i didn't commit yet but it should ilustrate the principle
17:47 pugs_svnbot r17702 | pmurias++ | kp6: example of a custom metamodel
17:47 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17702
17:47 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17702 - Pugs - Trac
17:49 fglock hmm - p5landish is not portable
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17:50 pmurias a portable interface layer could be written
17:51 pmurias you need some way of accesing the dispatcher
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17:52 ruoso pmurias, your're missing the bootstrap magic
17:52 pmurias the responder interface in generaly
17:52 * ruoso presumes we're talking about the kp6+1 compiler
17:52 pmurias ruoso: the thing assumes you bootstraped via some other way
17:53 ruoso pmurias, ok
17:53 ruoso in that case
17:53 ruoso what happens is that
17:53 ruoso the new compiler implements a new runtime
17:53 ruoso using "class Class"
17:53 ruoso as this new compiler handles all namespace lexicals by itself
17:53 ruoso "class Foo" will be an object of type "Class"
17:53 ruoso stored in the namespace "Foo"
17:54 ruoso then, when the code makes "Foo.new()"
17:54 ruoso the new runtime will lookup the "Foo" something
17:54 ruoso which happens to be an object of "Class"
17:55 ruoso which have a method "constructor" (or something)
17:55 ruoso creating a object of type "Foo"
17:57 pugs_svnbot r17703 | pmurias++ | [kp6] things required for example/custom-metamodel.pl to run
17:57 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17703
17:57 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17703 - Pugs - Trac
17:58 pmurias ruoso: what i'm experimenting with is how the user will be able to use his own metamodel
17:58 ruoso pmurias, a proper name for that would be "p6 extension model"
17:58 ruoso :)
17:58 pugs_svnbot r17704 | moritz++ | updated a few examples to s/err/orelse/
17:58 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17704
17:58 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17704 - Pugs - Trac
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17:59 ruoso but anyway...
17:59 ruoso this must be implemented by the new compiler
17:59 ruoso in the bootstrap process
17:59 pmurias it's implemented now, by the current compiler :)
18:00 * ruoso not sure that way is a sane way of doing it
18:01 * pmurias neither
18:01 ruoso one thing I'm pretty sure
18:01 ruoso is that it should not be that coupled
18:01 fglock pmurias: look at MOP.pm:15
18:02 pmurias ruoso: with the implementation?
18:02 ruoso pmurias, yep
18:02 ruoso the object itself must know where it comes from
18:02 ruoso and how to handle p6 calling convention
18:02 ruoso to its own
18:03 pmurias fglock: looked
18:03 ruoso in theory the reverse should be possible to
18:04 fglock P6opaque could possibly be used to build a new MOP, without the need for low level data
18:04 ruoso a p5 tied variable that translates the p5 calling convention to the p6 land
18:04 fglock pmurias: it's a prototype object that rebuilds itself
18:06 ruoso in the end we'll have the kp6 objects in this new compiler being dispatched in one way, and the other objects being dispatched in other way
18:08 pmurias fglock: i'll have to think it over as i'm a bit confused
18:09 fglock P6Opaque.new( dispatcher => ..., data => ..., ... )
18:09 pmurias fglock: i get it now
18:10 DarkWolf84 why in IO there is only tcp socket connection?
18:10 pmurias shower&
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18:22 moritz_ DarkWolf84: not yet specced probably
18:23 DarkWolf84 In p5 there is udp in IO::Socket
18:24 DarkWolf84 imho it's good to select (optional) the protocol
18:24 Tene DarkWolf84: feel free to propose a spec for how other transports should be specified.
18:25 ruoso home &
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19:20 pugs_svnbot r17705 | pmurias++ | [kp6] fixed matching of constants
19:20 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17705
19:20 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17705 - Pugs - Trac
19:21 pmurias fglock: should there be some general command line syntax for specifing visitor args?
19:22 pmurias i want to add a flag to Token to print out the intermediate code but i don't want to add a Yet Another Command Line Option
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19:24 allbery_b environment?
19:27 pmurias allbery_b: there is an option passed to a Visitor by the --secure flag
19:28 pmurias so i wanted to have a consitent interface
19:28 pmurias * consistent
19:30 pmurias OTOH environment might be best for debugging option
19:32 fglock pmurias: you could use an %ENV variable
19:34 pmurias fglock: not supported by either mp6 or kp6
19:35 pmurias supported by kp6 not mp6
19:35 fglock hmm
19:35 pmurias * but not
19:37 pugs_svnbot r17706 | fglock++ | [kp6] existing open classes are not overwritten by MOP make_class()
19:37 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17706
19:38 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17706 - Pugs - Trac
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19:39 fglock i wonder why the diffs are so big
19:39 fglock i didn't change the emitter
19:40 TimToady possibly some fallout from the s:g/err/orelse/
19:41 fglock ah, ok
19:46 fglock it's just whitespace
19:56 pugs_svnbot r17707 | fglock++ | [kp6] use 'redefine_method' in make_class, allows to use a circular Perl6 Prelude
19:56 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17707
19:56 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17707 - Pugs - Trac
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20:07 pugs_svnbot r17708 | fglock++ | [kp6] make forcerecompile
20:07 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17708
20:07 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17708 - Pugs - Trac
20:08 fglock home &
20:10 pmurias fglock: do you stay at work up to such later hours?
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