Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-09-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:37 Patterner well, you see lots of architecture in europe which is older than the USA :)
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09:24 moritz_ good morning *
09:24 moritz_ or good localtime() ;-)
09:25 masak good localtime(), moritz_
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10:30 pugs_svnbot r17743 | fglock++ | [kp6] Pad, COMPILER cleanup
10:30 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17743
10:31 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17743 - Pugs - Trac
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12:07 masak ?eval "hi"
12:08 masak pugs: say "hi"
12:08 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[hi␤]
12:08 masak pugs: say "hi".WHAT
12:08 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Str␤]
12:08 masak pugs: say "hi".WHAT.methods
12:08 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such method in class Str: "&methods"␤    at /tmp/DRsV4ayRta line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤]
12:08 masak oh, right
12:08 masak pugs: say ("hi".WHAT).methods
12:08 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such method in class Str: "&methods"␤    at /tmp/MCk4kwIGCf line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤]
12:08 moritz_ pugs: say "hi".HOW.methods
12:08 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[["reverse","chop","index","quotemeta","join​","chars","bytes","split","LIST","ITEM","bless"]␤]
12:08 masak moritz_: thx
12:09 moritz_ masak: kp6 has the precedence bug, not pugs ;)
12:09 masak ah
12:09 masak of course
12:09 masak actually, I was looking for a .pos in Str
12:09 masak S05 made me believe there would be one
12:09 moritz_ kp6: ("str.HOW).methods
12:09 exp_evalbot r17743: OUTPUT[Syntax Error␤]
12:10 moritz_ kp6: ("str".HOW).methods
12:10 exp_evalbot r17743: OUTPUT[[ 'perl', 'str', 'true', 'HOW', 'WHAT',  ]␤]
12:10 masak ("str".HOW).HOW
12:10 masak kp6: ("str".HOW).HOW
12:10 exp_evalbot r17743: OUTPUT[no method 'perl' in Class 'Class'␤]
12:10 masak heh
12:10 moritz_ pugs: $_="foo"; m/o/; say .pos
12:10 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such method in class Str: "&pos"␤    at /tmp/JUkUG4Sykl line 1, column 21 - line 2, column 1␤]
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12:12 masak I don't know how to refer to specific lines in the synopses, but it's under "Modifiers"
12:12 masak the :c modifier
12:16 moritz_ I know it should exist in some form, yes
12:18 masak now I see -- I should have checked the tests first
12:18 masak they are marked as TODO
12:18 masak I wonder if that's one of those things that don't conflict with audreyt++'s MO branch
12:19 masak so that it'd be safe to implement .pos
12:19 moritz_ masak: you should try ;)
12:19 masak actually, I'd like to
12:19 moritz_ masak: there's no use waiting if we don't know how long
12:19 masak true
12:22 masak I'll probably have time to take a look at it this week
12:22 masak and also, some of the failing tests
12:23 masak they're fun to try and resolve, almost like little crime novels
12:23 masak &
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13:02 pmurias moritz_: $foo.bar.baz bug is not caused by precedence issues
13:03 moritz_ pmurias: then what's the problem?
13:03 pmurias term_meth dosn't call itself recursivly but call term
13:04 pmurias kp6: $foo[1][2]
13:04 exp_evalbot r17743: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling INDEX KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::Dispat​chSugar::Dispatch=HASH(0x818ef40) on invalid object:$VAR1 = {};␤␤ at lib-kp6-mp6-p5/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 32␤       main::DISPATCH('undef', 'INDEX',
13:04 exp_evalbot ..'KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::Disp​atchSugar::Dispatch=HASH(0x81...') called at - line 16␤]
13:04 moritz_ so it's a grammar bug?
13:04 pmurias moritz_: yes
13:04 masak pmurias: what's the fix?
13:05 masak have term_meth call term_meth instead of term?
13:05 pmurias i think so (trying it out now)
13:06 pmurias but you have also to avoid infinit recursion
13:08 masak yes...
13:08 pmurias masak: do you want to try to fix it? :)
13:08 masak I'm at $work right now, so not very convenient
13:08 pmurias ok
13:09 masak I'll have some time tomorrow or later this week, but I was going to try to get Str.pos into Pugs
13:13 masak is there a graphing tool out there that generates a nice directed acyclic graph out of a set of dependencies?
13:14 moritz_ dot
13:14 moritz_ neato
13:15 moritz_ masak: it generated my keyring deps: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/images/tn_keyring.png
13:15 masak moritz_: thx
13:15 moritz_ masak: this is the full version: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/images/tn_keyring.png ;-)
13:15 moritz_ no, wrong
13:16 moritz_ http://moritz.faui2k3.org/images/keyring.png
13:16 masak looks complicated
13:17 moritz_ that's after one big and two smaller key signing parties ;)
13:18 masak my version of firefox went mildly neurotic over the larger version
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13:18 moritz_ ie it crashed?
13:18 moritz_ that happens from time to time ;)
13:18 masak it says it loaded it and is showing it scaled at 3%
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13:19 szbalint heheh mine too masak
13:19 masak but it's showing a white surface with nothing on it
13:19 masak and no way to zoom in
13:19 szbalint I ran out of 2 gigs of memory :)
13:19 moritz_ well, it's 14840x18299 pixels
13:19 szbalint it's a big image
13:19 masak yes
13:19 moritz_ and firfox doesn't do any antialiased rendering
13:19 moritz_ that's why I also provide a map viewer: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/mapit/showmap
13:19 lambdabot Title: Web of Trust Visualization- Moritz Lenz
13:20 moritz_ of course that's utterly useless, but nice to have anyway ;)
13:20 masak :)
13:22 masak how feature-complete is v6?
13:22 masak it seems to be pretty solid on grammars
13:24 [particle] masak: you can use Graph::Easy as a front end to dot... it's a nice module
13:25 masak [particle]: great, thx!
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13:39 fglock masak: i'm using v6.pm at work
13:41 pugs_svnbot r17744 | fglock++ | [kp6] 'proto'
13:41 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17744
13:41 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17744 - Pugs - Trac
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14:03 pmurias fglock: hi!
14:03 fglock hi
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14:35 pugs_svnbot r17745 | fglock++ | [kp6] 'multi'
14:35 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17745
14:35 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17745 - Pugs - Trac
14:37 [particle] fglock: are you going to layer p6 on top of kp6, or is it just going to grow into p6?
14:38 fglock [particle]: there are some problems i'd like to discuss; both are possible
14:38 [particle] i know it's not mp6, but what features are "enough"
14:38 [particle] k
14:39 fglock kp6 already has enough for running 6-in-6, but not enough for runnin STD (which is the roadmap)
14:39 fglock running
14:39 [particle] hrmm
14:40 fglock so we now have 2 roadmaps
14:40 fglock one is for running STD, the other for bootstrapping kp6
14:40 [particle] yeah, it's better to run STD at a lower level, for performance
14:40 moritz_ fglock: the roadmap has many gaps... for example, when will concurrency be added?
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14:40 avar meesa want concurrency too
14:41 moritz_ fglock: or are these features considered optional?
14:41 avar moritz_: concurrency of what?
14:41 moritz_ avar: threads, events, STM
14:41 fglock moritz_: concurrency is not needed for STD or for bootstrapping, so it is optional for now
14:42 fglock we can develop concurrency in... parallel
14:42 moritz_ ;)
14:43 moritz_ so the plan is basically "first get STD.pm working, then do the Rest"? ;-)
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14:43 * [particle1 has begun playing with intel threading building blocks for parrot
14:43 fglock it's more like - let's not forget STD
14:43 avar concurrency is also largely the problem of the runtime which kp6 offloads to something else
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14:44 moritz_ avar: right... let's ask the parrot folks ;)
14:44 fglock kp6 already has junctions, and it is up to the runtime to decide on dispatching (though Junction is implemented in Perl 6)
14:45 avar Yeah, basically implemented as an array now right?
14:45 moritz_ avar: right
14:45 moritz_ not basically, exactly
14:46 avar yeah, any is just a loop with an early exit if it finds something:)
14:46 moritz_ right
14:46 moritz_ so is none
14:46 fglock yes, the array stores the junction data, but the actual implementation is up to the low-level runtime
14:46 avar it would probably be faster as a hash but that's a bit too early an optimization probably:)
14:47 moritz_ avar: that doesn't help for regex matching etc.
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14:48 fglock [particle]: jonathan was considering working on a parrot backend for kp6
14:48 [particle1 is a junction a set or a bag?
14:48 avar bag
14:48 [particle1 so hash won't work well
14:48 avar some operations would be faster, not sure if it's a net win
14:49 [particle1 avar: right, that's for later, though (for me, anyway)
14:49 [particle1 fglock: yes, i'd like to talk to him about that, when he has tuits again
14:50 fglock [particle1: re 6-in-6 problems, there are a few things that are hard to do in Perl 6
14:50 fglock like pads
14:51 [particle1 that's hard in any language :)
14:52 [particle1 does kp6 'return' implementation use exceptions?
14:52 fglock there is a workaround for now, but it would be nice if Perl 6 had support for high-level pads
14:53 fglock [particle1: no (or, not yet)
14:53 avar like my $symbols = $CALLER::; or something like that?
14:53 [particle1 ok, nqp needs 'return' and i was hoping kp6 had something helpful
14:54 [particle1 hey, [particle], would you cease to exist, so i can become you once more?
14:54 [particle1 time out, you bugger.
14:54 fglock [particle1: it would be possible to desugar kp6 to nqp
14:54 [particle1 hrmm
14:55 fglock avar: we need to be able to execute code inside a given pad; kpe currently uses an eval() trick
14:56 fglock kp6
14:56 [particle1 so, pad contains blocks?
14:57 fglock yes, pads are objects that contain closures
14:57 [particle1 okay. they're not in the grammar, but that seems okay. right now, nqp/perl6 do closure has-a pad
14:58 [particle1 kp6 is pad contains-a closure
14:58 [particle1 *has-a
14:58 fglock it's more like Pad instances contain native closures
14:59 fglock Block instances are a separate thing
15:04 fglock this is specific to the perl5 backend
15:05 fglock but 6-in-6 will need something like that too
15:06 [particle1 so, are you currently working toward STD?
15:06 [particle1 or towards 6on6
15:06 moritz_ 6on6 implies STD, doesn't it?
15:07 [particle1 depends where the bootstrap is
15:08 pmurias moritz_: 6-in-6?
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15:09 pugs_svnbot r17746 | fglock++ | [kp6] updated roadmap
15:09 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17746
15:09 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17746 - Pugs - Trac
15:09 fglock we have 2 parallel projects: working towards STD (see last commit), and bootstrapping kp6
15:11 * moritz_ updates the HTML version
15:12 pugs_svnbot r17747 | fglock++ | [kp6] fixed last commit
15:12 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17747
15:12 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17747 - Pugs - Trac
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15:21 pugs_svnbot r17748 | fglock++ | [kp6] more roadmap updates
15:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17748
15:21 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17748 - Pugs - Trac
15:21 fglock moritz_: done, i think :)
15:21 moritz_ fglock: ok ;-)
15:25 fglock re 6-*-6 implies STD: yes, but there will be pre-christmas versions
15:26 [particle] 5.99-on-5.98
15:26 [particle] or better 5.999-on-5.99
15:27 moritz_ lol
15:27 moritz_ and then finally a christmas-on-pre_christmas ;)
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15:31 * xinming prefers the 6.0(-)0.1 :-D
15:32 xinming 5.99 is still perl 5. But 6.0 means we enter perl 6 world now.
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15:33 moritz_ debian uses ~ for negative version numbers, so 6.0~5 < 6.0
15:33 [particle] so perhaps it's 6-.01i-on-6-.1i
15:33 [particle] when the imaginary component disappears, we have real perl 6
15:34 moritz_ nice pun ;-)
15:34 TimToady masak: it's not entirely clear that strings should know their .pos anymore.  It's more like positions know their string.  Otherwise a string can't be shared between threads
15:35 TimToady and the positions used in S05 will be stored in the current match state, not in the current matched string
15:35 masak TimToady: that makes me very happy
15:35 TimToady you might still refer to it as .pos, but only because $_ is likely to track the match state
15:35 TimToady (within rules)
15:35 moritz_ so $_ is a "match state" in regexes, not the current string?
15:36 TimToady correct.
15:36 moritz_ ok ;)
15:36 masak TimToady: S05 is not up-to-date in that case
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15:36 moritz_ ETOOSLOW
15:36 TimToady used to be $/, but that's going away
15:36 TimToady no, it's not; I have pending changes
15:36 TimToady $/ isn't going away entirely
15:36 moritz_ erm
15:36 TimToady it's still the user's link to the last match
15:36 TimToady but that's all it is
15:37 moritz_ will it go away, or just replaced by a different symbol?
15:37 TimToady within a rule $/ changes to $_ for the current match state, probably
15:37 TimToady (that's part of why "andthen" got defined the way it was)
15:38 TimToady there are several other changes to S05 that Damian, Patrick, and I have been thrashing on recently
15:38 TimToady mostly simplifications of various sorts
15:38 TimToady most $<foo> just change to $foo
15:38 TimToady (within the rule)
15:38 TimToady for instance
15:39 TimToady and current <+ws> probably settles on <.ws>
15:39 moritz_ for non-capturing groups only?
15:40 moritz_ what about char classes?
15:40 TimToady <ws> captures, <.ws> doesn't
15:40 TimToady as it was, either <[...]> or <+[...]>
15:40 moritz_ ok
15:41 TimToady and you can use either <+alpha> or <.alpha> to suppress capture
15:41 TimToady anyway, that's the direction it seems to be heading at the moment
15:41 TimToady main incompatible change is that <?foo> no longer eats positions
15:42 TimToady (and that's a change we already made)
15:43 TimToady also, there will be some kind of syntax for declaring my variables directly within the rule without having to fake them up in the signature
15:47 TimToady also, setting the value of a reduction closure is likely to change from "return" to "reduce" because what the rule really returns is the next match state with the reduction value attached
15:48 TimToady afk &
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16:54 pugs_svnbot r17749 | lwall++ | [STD] approximation of new standard grammar syntax (won't run yet)
16:54 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17749
16:54 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17749 - Pugs - Trac
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19:17 TimToady moritz_: S05 is now updated (more or less)
19:18 [particle] i'd say "more" :)
19:22 pugs_svnbot r17750 | lwall++ | Strings no longer attempt to keep track of their "pos".
19:22 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17750
19:22 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17750 - Pugs - Trac
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20:16 moritz_ TimToady: what about the somewhat weird hash matching? is that going to change eventually?
20:16 TimToady might well
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20:57 ahmadz hi
20:57 moritz_ good evening ahmadz ;)
20:58 * moritz_ heeds off to bed
20:59 rindolf Hi ahmadz
20:59 rindolf moritz_: night
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21:25 ahmadz http://feather.perl6.nl:80​96/p6_syntax_highlighter/
21:25 lambdabot Title: Test
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21:38 pugs_svnbot r17751 | azawawi++ | [p6_syntax_highlighter] Perl6 JS Browser Syntax highlighter script
21:38 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17751
21:38 lambdabot Title: Changeset 17751 - Pugs - Trac
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