Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-09-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:54 bjoern_ Hi, I have this code: [[[
02:55 bjoern_ token CR     { <[\x0D]> }
02:55 bjoern_ token LF     { <[\x0A]> }
02:55 bjoern_ token CRLF   { <CR> <LF> }
02:55 bjoern_ rule foo     { bar | <CRLF> }
02:55 bjoern_ my $content = "\x0d\x0a";
02:55 bjoern_ my $match = $content ~~ m:keepall/<foo>/;
02:55 bjoern_ say $match.perl;
02:55 bjoern_ ]]]
02:55 bjoern_ my version of Pugs says this does not match. However, if I change foo so it reads: '''rule foo { <CRLF> }''' the string matches. why is that?
02:56 bjoern_ (I tested this with 6.2.13 on Win32)
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03:20 Chris j #lisp
03:20 Chris augh
03:20 Chris sorry
03:21 fax -_-
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05:43 K0brik hey
05:46 K0brik #perl are too conservative so I went here instead
05:46 platypus o.O
05:47 K0brik they kicked me because I told them about the CutSys::Chao he
05:48 K0brik some of them believe in a world ruled by a fascist minority
05:51 K0brik how it going with the sexy perl?
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05:55 dduncan this channel is mainly for talk about Perl 6 ... Perl 5 is generally off-topic
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05:55 K0brik to make good software one need good philosophy, right?
05:56 diotalevi which is what we have Larry for.
05:56 K0brik and all the other little helpers
05:57 ahmadz hi
05:57 K0brik may I call you brothers and sisters?
05:58 diotalevi Huh?
05:58 K0brik sure
05:59 diotalevi I'd rather just be called by my handle.
06:00 K0brik what type of handle?
06:00 K0brik diotalevi: are you a boy or a girl?
06:00 diotalevi Does it matter?
06:00 K0brik alot
06:00 diotalevi Why?
06:00 fax K0brik: a lot :)
06:00 dduncan this isn't a dating service
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06:01 dduncan just call us all by either our handle or 'you', keeps it simple
06:01 K0brik because a language should be made by fellow brothers and sisters of course
06:02 dduncan whatever, we are people, and it doesn't matter what our genders are
06:02 dduncan its all platonic here
06:02 K0brik I'm not a sexist but I thought diotalevi was referencing his penis
06:03 dduncan you really need to read up on how word meaning is influenced by context
06:03 diotalevi No.
06:03 K0brik j/k brothers
06:04 dduncan a 'handle' is the name that people in an online discussion identify themselves as, mine is 'dduncan'
06:04 dduncan also known as a 'nick'
06:04 K0brik yeah. I know
06:04 K0brik and I respect that
06:04 dduncan then how could you be confused by diotalevi?
06:05 K0brik random idiocy I guess
06:05 dduncan anyway, I've got stuff to do, bye for now
06:05 K0brik never mind
06:05 K0brik me too. I just had to say hey
06:07 diotalevi Ok. Next time, be normal to us.
06:07 K0brik yeah. I'm just a fellow who likes the simplicity of perl
06:08 K0brik no shame to have a bit of influence, right?
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06:23 diotalevi oh, what a difference having the right tool for the job makes...
06:23 irobot sounds like a fortune
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06:29 irobot I have found that perl works for most things
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12:36 pmurias hi
12:40 pugs_svnbot r18225 | pmurias++ | [kp6] the C rules are correctly processed by Inline::C
12:40 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18225
12:40 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18225 - Pugs - Trac
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13:01 pugs_svnbot r18226 | pmurias++ | [kp6] TokenC rules are now visible as perl6 methods
13:01 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18226
13:01 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18226 - Pugs - Trac
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13:01 pmurias it would be interesting to check how fast the c rules are in comparision to mp6 ones ;)
13:05 fglock pmurias: they may be faster than p5 ones in some cases, because they are inlined and have no unicode
13:10 pugs_svnbot r18227 | fglock++ | [kp6] updated 'ident' syntax
13:10 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18227
13:10 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18227 - Pugs - Trac
13:13 pmurias fglock: utf8 shouldn't be a big slowdown if added correctly
13:16 pmurias fglock: late binding is propably more problematic
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13:28 masak the pugs test suite is the hippest test suite I know :)
13:28 masak someone should write an article about the cultural references hidden in it
13:29 pmurias fglock: is rules taking using $_ as the default string to match against specced?
13:31 fglock pmurias: they should be, but there are still some mp6isms in kp6
13:34 pmurias fglock: i don't understand
13:35 pmurias they should be speced?
13:37 fglock this wasn't specced when the first implementation was done, so the implementation in kp6 may need fixing
13:40 pmurias is it specced now?
13:41 fglock looking
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13:48 ferreira New article on operators: http://feather.perl6.nl/~ferreir​a/perl6-operators/compare1.html Please have look if you feel like it.
13:48 lambdabot Title: compare1.pod6
13:56 fglock pmurias: not sure
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13:58 pugs_svnbot r18228 | Aankhen++ | * [kp6-lisp] really implemented lexical variables.  hopefully.
13:58 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18228
13:58 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18228 - Pugs - Trac
14:00 masak ferreira: cool article. I did not know about `before` and `after` before. :)
14:00 pugs_svnbot r18229 | Aankhen++ | [kp6-lisp]
14:00 pugs_svnbot r18229 | Aankhen++ | * define stub functions in packages.lisp
14:00 pugs_svnbot r18229 | Aankhen++ | * tweaked stub error message in Pad.lisp
14:00 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18229
14:00 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18229 - Pugs - Trac
14:02 masak what is the exact reach of chained comparison ops? will 1 < $val1 != $val2 < 6 check whether $val1 is less than 6?
14:03 pugs_svnbot r18230 | Aankhen++ | * [kp6-lisp] moved code from packages.lisp into Package.lisp, to match Pad.lisp
14:03 pugs_svnbot r18231 | Aankhen++ | * [kp6-lisp] removed packages.lisp
14:03 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18231
14:03 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18231 - Pugs - Trac
14:03 masak hm, probably not
14:04 Aankhen`` avar: my $x = 5; if (1) { my $x = 6; say $x; }; say $x; # => 6\n5
14:04 Aankhen`` (You need the `if` there since bare blocks seem to fail to parse.)
14:06 fglock Aankhen``: do { } should work
14:06 Aankhen`` pmurias: You said yesterday that KP6 already does the separation of cells and variables thing. Could you elaborate?
14:06 Aankhen`` fglock: Ah, cool. It's not a big deal, though, I just wanted to test the lexicals.
14:07 pmurias Aankhen``: kp6 does separation of containers and contents
14:07 pmurias my $a = 1;
14:08 pmurias binds a Scalar to $a
14:08 pmurias and calls $a.ASSIGN(1);
14:08 Aankhen`` I see.
14:08 pmurias $a.STORE(1) actually
14:08 Aankhen`` What does `my $b := $a` subsequently do?
14:10 pmurias binds $b to the Scalar stored in $a
14:10 Aankhen`` Hmm, okay.
14:10 pmurias the binds are = in perl5 land
14:21 platypus pmurias: I thought that binding was *$b = *$a; in perl5 land.
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14:24 fglock platypus: in perl5, $a = Scalar.new; $b = $a  # $a and $b point to the same object
14:24 fglock because in perl5 objects are pointers
14:25 * platypus nods.
14:25 platypus You didn't mention that you where dealing with objects.
14:26 Juerd references!
14:26 platypus (pedent in me wishes to point out that they are refrences rather then objects) But Juerd has done that for me.
14:26 [particle] ...they were talking about how kp6 is implemented.
14:26 [particle] juerd: is feather smp?
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14:28 fglock ok, references
14:32 Juerd [particle]: Yes.
14:33 [particle] juerd: thanks. we just got make -j working for parrot, and are working on parallelization of make test
14:34 Juerd Neat
14:35 Juerd Note that that usually speeds things up even on single CPU systems
14:36 [particle] yes, but testing on native smp can also be enlightening. i can do that on my box, but was hoping the new and improved feather could be used by others :)
14:37 Juerd It can!
14:41 fglock i wonder if i used cheat/metholate on kp6, would it run in pugs
14:45 Aankhen`` KP6 doesn't support infix:<x>, does it?
14:50 bloonix
14:53 fglock Aankhen``: no - do you need it?
14:53 Aankhen`` fglock: Only for prettifying the generated code; it's not urgent.
15:00 pugs_svnbot r18232 | Aankhen++ | * [kp6-lisp] more Lispy handling of newlines in generated code.
15:00 pugs_svnbot r18233 | Aankhen++ | [kp6-lisp]
15:00 pugs_svnbot r18233 | Aankhen++ | * added PAD slot to KP6-CODE class.
15:00 pugs_svnbot r18233 | Aankhen++ | * moved code from functions.lisp into Code.lisp
15:00 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18233
15:00 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18233 - Pugs - Trac
15:03 ferreira masak: Perl 6 would teach us many things. Using 'before' and 'after' is one of them.
15:03 pugs_svnbot r18234 | Aankhen++ | * [kp6-lisp] removed functions.lisp
15:03 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18234
15:03 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18234 - Pugs - Trac
15:04 ferreira masak: I also think that 1 < $val1 != $val2 < 6 will only check the adjacent pairs: 1 < $val1, $val1 != $val2, $val2 < 6
15:05 masak ferreira: yes, me too, upon further reflection
15:09 ferreira masak: 1 < 6 > 1 is kind of weird and so are other expressions, but I think the point is that some nice (readable) expressions like $a < $b < $c become possible.
15:09 pugs_svnbot r18235 | Aankhen++ | * [kp6-lisp] pruned a bit of unused code.
15:09 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18235
15:09 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18235 - Pugs - Trac
15:10 masak ferreira: how does 1 < 6 > 1 compete against "everything only evaluated once"? does that only go for variable evaluations, not literals?
15:11 masak also, is there any danger of 1 < 6 > 1 being parsed as 1 qw<6> 1? or is there a term/op rule or something that decides that?
15:12 ferreira masak: I don't think there is a term/op rule to decide for the right thing in this case
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15:13 TimToady there is no problem with term/op confusion here
15:14 avar Aankhen``: What could I use for while () {} in lisp?
15:14 ferreira The "everything only evaluated once" has to do with evaluating "exp1 < exp2 < exp3" as "($tmp1, $tmp2) = (exp1, exp2); $tmp1 < $tmp2 and ($tmp3) = (exp3), $tmp2 < $tmp3". If exp2 is identical to exp3, it could be evaluated twice.
15:14 avar the goto construct I guess
15:14 TimToady it doesn't matter if an immutable value is evaluated multiple times
15:14 Aankhen`` avar: Eh?
15:14 Aankhen`` avar: Heard of DO? :-)
15:14 TimToady it's only the side effects that matter
15:15 Aankhen`` (do () ((not (...cond...))) exp1 exp2 exp3 ... expn)
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15:15 fax (loop (stuff)) also
15:15 Aankhen`` Oh yeah, LOOP would be easier.
15:16 fax but it must be a () thingy, so probably you want (loop (progn ...))
15:16 TimToady ferreira: "people would easily point" is not quite understandable.  Perhaps just "one is forced to choose"
15:16 fax or even (loop while (condition) do ...) :S
15:16 Aankhen`` fax: Why not (loop :while (cond) :do (...))?
15:16 Aankhen`` Heh.
15:17 avar while ($cond) { $body } could be (loop (unless cond (return)) $body)
15:17 fax I wonder why I didn't say that first :p
15:17 ferreira TimToady: I see. I have the habit of writing too much at first.
15:17 Aankhen`` avar: Or it could be the more natural form. :-P
15:17 Aankhen`` And for until, just change :while to :until.
15:18 avar oh there's :while, neat
15:18 TimToady ferreira: well, I think you were trying for something more like "people would naturally assume you have to choose"
15:18 Aankhen`` avar: Hidden depths of LOOP. <G>
15:18 fax yeah, loop is a whole'nother programming language :)
15:19 avar oh crap, you're adding an indenter to the emitter?:)
15:20 Aankhen`` avar: I already added the framework for it, but I can't actually indent until infix:<x> works.
15:20 Aankhen`` At least it's breaking lines more logically, for now. :-)
15:20 TimToady does lisp have an sprintf equivalent?
15:20 fax (format nil ...)
15:20 TimToady or substr('               ', 0, $len)
15:20 avar TimToady: Something much, much better
15:21 ferreira TimToady: I thought of emphasizing how Perl 6 would not have this issue to be criticized ;-)
15:21 TimToady and it's so much better that you can't make a string of spaces?  :)
15:21 Aankhen`` Er.
15:21 avar CL-USER> (format t "It's like a ~r times better" 1000)
15:21 avar It's like a one thousand times better
15:21 Aankhen`` Yes, it does, but this is in Perl 6 land.
15:21 avar :)
15:21 fax TimToady: (make-string 5 :initial-element #\space)
15:21 fax gives "     "
15:21 Aankhen`` We're talking about indenting the generated code.
15:22 avar Aankhen``: You can just use a loop instead of x
15:22 TimToady ferreira: well, and in fact many pointless discussions about which operators to overload do in fact happen in the P5 camp
15:22 avar sub x { my ($str, $times) = @_; my $ret; ...
15:22 Aankhen`` avar: Too much effort for too little gain.
15:22 Aankhen`` I'll just wait till KP6-CL can compile it. :-P
15:23 avar But the best way to do this imo would be to write a lispindent program that just calls (read) on the string on stdin and (prints) it
15:23 TimToady well, at least lisp is easy to indent, just put a newline and a random number of spaces before each (, then delete any whitespace before each )
15:23 TimToady :)
15:24 ferreira TimToady: changing the subject, I was thinking of that specification that a declared Str() method would be used for string coercion (implicit or with ~). But if we declare Num() and Int(), which one would be used by numeric coercion (implicit or with +)?
15:24 TimToady + implies Num
15:25 TimToady unless you happen to know the context requires Int anyway
15:25 ferreira like in $a div $b?
15:25 TimToady what appears to be coercion is mostly just multiple dispatch
15:26 TimToady P5 always coerces, but in P6 we just set up the multis so that the defaults work that way
15:27 TimToady so in P5, $a == $b strongly implies Num($a) === Num($b), it's not as strong in P6
15:29 TimToady we just try to supply enough operators that people aren't tempted to overload them for uses other than the obvious
15:30 TimToady which is one of the strongest arguments for allowing Unicode operators, I think
15:30 TimToady otherwise you get travesties like C++'s use of <<
15:32 ferreira right. but will there be a way in pure Perl 6 to add a new operator by specifying its precedence and associativity like Prolog could do? In Prolog, it was much easier because of the light syntax.
15:32 Aankhen`` fglock: How does one use the HTML emitter? I want to examine the generated AST…
15:33 avar Aankhen``: --ast
15:33 avar --ast | perltidy
15:33 TimToady ferreira: certainly, see S06:1538
15:33 Aankhen`` Oh, --ast works.
15:33 Aankhen`` avar: Heh, thanks.
15:36 pugs_svnbot r18236 | avar++ | Implemented while
15:36 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18236
15:36 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18236 - Pugs - Trac
15:36 TimToady ferreira: however, you never actually have to specify an arbitrary precedence *value* in Perl 6; all precedence is relative to an existing operator
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15:37 TimToady so you could easily install 100,000 precedence levels between * and +, for instance, without worrying about running out of levels
15:38 avar ferreira: b.t.w. I liked your emacs+slime+opengl demo
15:38 avar too bad I can't see the source..
15:38 ferreira TimToady: that's beautiful
15:38 TimToady thank you.  one of my few original inventions.  :)
15:39 TimToady most everything else is stolen, er, borrowed
15:39 ferreira avar: what? I think you are confusing me with someone else.
15:39 [particle] everything is relative, and nothing is real
15:39 * masak likes the value-less precedence thing too
15:39 ferreira TimToady: it is the integration magic that counts ;-)
15:39 TimToady well, nothing is at least interesting, if not real
15:40 TimToady you're gonna give me a swelled head.  oh wait, too late...  :)
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15:48 szbalint wohoo my amazon books arrived
15:48 * szbalint now has most of the books mentioned in READTHEM
15:50 fglock http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf
15:52 avar cat t/kp6/54-while.t | perl kp6-mp6-perl5.pl --lisp | sbcl
15:52 avar There is no applicable method for the generic function
15:52 avar #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION CL->PERL (10)>
15:52 avar when called with arguments
15:52 avar (T).
15:52 avar mm
15:55 Aankhen`` You want 'true.
15:55 pmurias fglock: do you plan to emit native code? ;)
15:56 avar pmurias: we're doing that already:)
15:56 pmurias well directly
15:56 avar why reinvent the wheel?
15:57 fglock pmurias: re article? i thought it could give some hints on implementing variables, etc
15:58 pmurias k
16:00 avar Aankhen``: I lack debug-foo
16:10 Aankhen`` avar: Clearly. ^_^
16:10 avar how do I see /where from/ that was called?
16:15 Tene pugs: my $a = 'foo'; $a ~~ s:g{o}='a'; $a
16:15 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Cannot parse regex: o␤*** Error: ␤]
16:15 Aankhen`` avar: Pastebin the generated code.
16:15 Tene unknown parameter 'g'
16:15 Tene Is this NYI, or am I misremembering?
16:16 avar Aankhen``: cat t/kp6/54-while.t | perl kp6-mp6-perl5.pl --lisp
16:17 Aankhen`` Hmm, what do I do to get the length of a list in KP6?
16:18 fglock Aankhen``: .elems
16:19 Aankhen`` Weird, I tried that.
16:19 Aankhen`` Oh, hold on, I might have forgotten to use parentheses on the previous method call.
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16:21 fglock Aankhen``: i think mp6 doesn't support .elems (kp6 is compiled with mp6)
16:22 Aankhen`` fglock: Ahh.
16:22 Aankhen`` Any other way to check that an arrayref is defined?
16:22 Aankhen`` Er, has more than one element?
16:22 Aankhen`` Bleh, I fail.
16:22 Aankhen`` "has at least one element".
16:24 fglock maybe: if @x {...}
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16:26 Tene pugs: my $a = 'foo'; $a ~~ s:global{o}='a'; $a
16:26 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Cannot parse regex: o␤*** Error: ␤]
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16:34 pugs_svnbot r18237 | Aankhen++ | * [kp6-lisp] fixed a few bugs in error handling in Code.lisp
16:34 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18237
16:34 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18237 - Pugs - Trac
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16:38 Aankhen`` avar: It's the functions in GLOBAL.lisp.  All the comparison functions are returning NIL/T instead 'FALSE/'TRUE.
16:39 avar crap
16:39 Aankhen`` I'll fix.
16:39 avar great
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16:43 Aankhen`` avar: What's with the definition for <=?
16:45 avar what about it?
16:46 Aankhen`` Why not just (<= foo bar)?
16:47 avar (cl->perl (<= (num* first) (num* second))))
16:47 avar numeric context?
16:48 Aankhen`` Yes, but you've got: (signum (- foo bar))
16:49 avar that's the definition for <=>
16:52 Aankhen`` Ah, right.
16:52 Aankhen`` All the angle brackets confused me. :-P
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16:59 Aankhen`` avar: Your problem ees fixed.
16:59 pugs_svnbot r18238 | Aankhen++ | [kp6-lisp]
16:59 pugs_svnbot r18238 | Aankhen++ | * removed redundant CL->PERL on arguments to function calls.
16:59 pugs_svnbot r18238 | Aankhen++ | * added KP6-COERCE methods for T and NIL to KP6-BIT.
16:59 pugs_svnbot r18238 | Aankhen++ | * added coercion to GLOBAL.lisp to ensure that KP6 objects are returned from every function.
16:59 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18238
16:59 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18238 - Pugs - Trac
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17:16 pugs_svnbot r18239 | avar++ | Fixed ne and !=, tests were inverted
17:16 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18239
17:16 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18239 - Pugs - Trac
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17:19 avar Aankhen``: plz run tests kthx
17:19 TimToady avar
17:19 TimToady re: (cl->perl (<= (num* first) (num* second))))
17:20 TimToady that's a decent p5 definition
17:20 TimToady and maybe a decent kp6 definition
17:20 TimToady but isn't how it works in p6
17:20 * Aankhen`` waves at diakopter.
17:20 Aankhen`` TimToady: We don't have multis yet, so we're just faking it.
17:20 * TimToady operates at diakopter :)
17:21 TimToady is fine for kp6, just a fwiw
17:21 * Aankhen`` nods.
17:21 Aankhen`` More accurately, we don't have subs at all yet.
17:21 [particle] if you implement multis, you'll get subs for free ;)
17:22 Aankhen`` :-P
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17:22 riffraff hi
17:23 Aankhen`` avar: Tests are for wusses!
17:23 avar Aankhen``: Implement bindings!
17:24 Aankhen`` I keep trying and failing. :-(
17:24 avar ;/
17:24 * diakopter discovered this week his employer has a site license for nearly every single msft product (for the past three months).  And here we were considering implementing an internal EAI/BAM solution (*not* based on BizTalk) with license fees of $400-1500k/year
17:24 Aankhen`` diakopter: :-o
17:25 * [particle] wonders if diakopter's company would sponsor a terminal server for remote development of perl6 & parrot :D
17:25 diakopter and so now our division's budget folks are surprised to see an extra mil or two in the budget for this fiscal year.  talk about incentive to virtualize as many servers as possible.....!
17:25 diakopter doubt it...
17:25 Aankhen`` LOL.
17:26 [particle] it'd cost less than $1M, i promise.
17:27 diakopter I mean, now that virtual server is freely licensable.
17:31 avar [particle]: feather?
17:32 [particle] avar: need a license for the os
17:32 avar huh?
17:32 [particle] perhaps i misunderstood your question
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17:34 [particle] avar: a Windows Terminal Server.
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17:59 diakopter [particle]: they've got both infinite (non-)virtual OS licenses and CALs, but for internal use.  I doubt donating to a non-profit project/entity would be permitted.  However, when I was at oscon I asked the MSFT/Port25 guys if they would consider hosting remote access build/test farms on win32/64 for AL2 projects, and they said, hold that thought for a coupla months, msft will be making a giant announcement along those lines.  I ...
17:59 diakopter ... held the thought, but not my breath.
17:59 [particle] i'll check the sky over redmond for smoke signals
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20:11 pugs_svnbot r18240 | kjwcode++ | Probably about time I did this.  I may not code much right now,
20:11 pugs_svnbot r18240 | kjwcode++ | but I do a lot of smokes.
20:11 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18240
20:11 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18240 - Pugs - Trac
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21:24 pugs_svnbot r18241 | pmurias++ | [kp6] TokenC: rule names are magled, some stubs
21:24 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18241
21:24 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18241 - Pugs - Trac
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