Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-10-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 mncharity fglock: re reorganizing, great.  if you ever want to reorg Common, feel entirely free.  I keep meaning to move my stuff there to Aside/.
00:01 stevan_ hey mncharity
00:01 mncharity hi steven_ :)
00:01 stevan_ hows things with you
00:01 fglock heh - no, I'm just trying to keep v6/ usable
00:02 mncharity pictured jumping mooses, and though of you
00:02 stevan_ :)
00:02 stevan_ fglock: where is the talk?
00:02 mncharity re heh, ah, ok
00:02 fglock hmm - it's in Portuguese
00:03 mncharity re things, I'm still in jobsearch avoidance mode (like thesis avoidance but more expensive).  Helping out with One Laptop Per Child.
00:03 avar mncharity: what are you doing there?
00:05 theorb joined #perl6
00:05 mncharity avar: I want to say random application development.  But since I got an actual box, it seems I spend more time on testing and doing bug reports.  The rest on wiki work, especially regards running stuff in emulation.
00:06 mncharity mass production nominally starts in a couple of weeks.  so there's rather a push to get things nailed down.
00:07 mncharity spent a week or two generating static slices of wikipedia.
00:10 pugs_svnbot r18412 | fglock++ | [kp6] re-add lib-kp6-mp6-p5 temporarily, until evalbot gets @LIB fixed
00:10 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18412
00:10 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18412 - Pugs - Trac
00:10 mncharity http://wiki.laptop.org/   http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Peru/Arahuay  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Software_components http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Emulating_the_XO http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Current_events http://xogiving.org/ http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_issues #olpc #sugar #olpc-content
00:11 lambdabot Title: The OLPC Wiki - OLPCWiki
00:11 fglock kp6: "ping?"
00:11 * mncharity wonders what lambdabot is going to make of that...
00:11 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT['ping?'␤]
00:11 fglock kp6: my $a = gather { while 1 { take 123; take 456; } }; say $a[3]
00:11 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[456␤]
00:12 fglock mncharity: that's the current "Perl 6 in Perl 6"
00:12 mncharity :)
00:12 mncharity kp6: ...hmm...
00:12 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 0, line 1 column 0:␤...hmm..␤^ HERE␤]
00:12 mncharity /me tries to remember how to print all globals...
00:13 fglock kp6: say %*ENV
00:13 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[HOME     /home/evalbot␤LOGNAME     evalbot␤SHLVL     2␤LESSCLOSE       /usr/bin/lesspipe %s %s␤_       /usr/bin/perl␤PATH        /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games␤LS_COLORS
00:13 exp_evalbot ..no=00:fi=00:di=01;34:ln=01;36:pi=40;33:​so=01;35:do=01;35:bd=40;33;01:cd=40;33;01​:or=40;31;01:su=37;41:sg=30;43:tw=30;42:o​w=34;42:st=37;44:ex=01;32:*.tar=01;31:*.t​gz=01;31:*.arj=01;31:*.taz=01;31:*.lz...]
00:15 mncharity kp6: Int, Num, Complex, Rat, Str, Bit, Regex, Set, Junction, Code, Block, List, Seq;
00:15 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 3, line 1 column 3:␤Int, Num, Complex, Rat, Str, Bit, Regex, Set, Junction, Code, Block, List, Seq␤   ^ HERE␤DISPATCH: calling APPLY on invalid object:$VAR1 = {};␤␤ at lib-kp6-mp6-p5/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 33␤   main::DISPATCH('undef', 'APPLY')
00:15 exp_evalbot ..called at - line 16␤]
00:15 mncharity kp6: foo(Int, Num, Complex, Rat, Str, Bit, Regex, Set, Junction, Code, Block, List, Seq);
00:15 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling APPLY on invalid object:$VAR1 = {};␤␤ at lib-kp6-mp6-p5/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 33␤   main::DISPATCH('undef', 'APPLY') called at - line 16␤]
00:15 mncharity kp6: Str
00:15 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling APPLY on invalid object:$VAR1 = {};␤␤ at lib-kp6-mp6-p5/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 33␤   main::DISPATCH('undef', 'APPLY') called at - line 16␤]
00:16 fglock kp6: ::Int
00:16 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 0, line 1 column 0:␤::In␤^ HERE␤]
00:16 fglock kp6: ::Int(10)
00:16 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[Died at compiled/perl5/lib/KindaPerl6/Grammar.pm line 3590, <> line 1.␤Can't locate object method "parsing" via package "Constructor" (perhaps you forgot to load "Constructor"?) at - line 1.␤]
00:16 fglock pff
00:16 mncharity :)
00:16 mncharity work in progress :)
00:17 mncharity I've been repeatedly reminded lately that 'civilization is a bootstrap exercise'.  One step at a time.  With the critical path very often starved for resources.
00:19 mncharity btw, I saw audreyt's planet post go by the other day.  is there a kp6 interactive read-eval-print loop, and if not, would you like one?
00:19 fglock kp6: say (10.HOW).methods
00:19 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[increment perl str true HOW WHAT␤]
00:19 fglock no, it would be nice
00:21 mncharity ok.  I'll try to whip one up.
00:22 avar whee
00:28 mncharity fglock: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Brazil :)
00:28 lambdabot Title: OLPC Brazil - OLPCWiki
00:28 fglock it would be nice if it were written in kp6-ish
00:28 fglock looking
00:30 fglock cool - are you going to Brazil some day?
00:31 fglock I studied at UFRGS
00:33 mncharity ah, neat.  no, others are off to Peru and China, but I just sit in Cambridge and hack.
00:34 fglock re written in kp6-ish, we plan to bootstrap in Lisp too
00:34 avar the lisp backend will take over!
00:36 mncharity the other thing vaguely near the top of my p6 todo list was setting up so the pugs test suite can be run against arbitrary programs.  Just set an ENV variable.  Rather than each implementation having to frob a couple of files for itself.
00:37 mncharity re lisp, yes, sbcl is a nice environment.
00:38 fglock we are heading to a common Makefile.PL, that you can run with an ENV set to which backend you want; then 'make test' just works
00:39 avar well preferrably we'll be able to do that at runtime
00:39 fglock this is what I was working today (instead of writing my talk)
00:39 avar but in the future we may want to compile the kp6 frontend with a given backend..
00:41 mncharity ah, ok.  I was just going to take the existing(still?) redsix lines and multate them into a more general "other".  but a more principled approach would be nice.
00:43 fglock no problem - we can replace the syntax later
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00:45 mncharity fglock: don't let me distract you from talk. ;)    /me watches  cpan -f -i KindaPerl6  tests scroll by.  Then maybe just take misc/old_pugs_perl5_backend/PIL-Run/pugs-p5.pl and strip it down to just use  print open(| kp6 > tmp); eval(`cat tmp`).
00:46 mncharity low hanging fruit, leaving the kp6-ish for another day.
00:46 SamB what does sbcl have that cmucl hasn't?
00:47 * mncharity tries to think of a polite way to say it...
00:47 SamB don't bother
00:47 avar SamB: active development?
00:47 mncharity cleaner code and an active community
00:47 SamB I don't care if you insult cmucl
00:47 SamB ah. that's nice!
00:49 mncharity stevan_: do you every get up to boston?  we should do lunch or something.
00:50 * mncharity tries to remember who else is in the Boston area...  nominal members of the Perl6 Users Group...
00:51 fglock the talk is going on well - distraction actually helps
00:52 avar there's a p6 user's group?
00:53 stevan_ mncharity: I dont often get up to Boston, but I do plan on trying to make a Boston.pm meeting sometime in the near future
00:57 mncharity fglock: :)
00:58 * avar needs to design a better kp6 interface
00:58 mncharity avar: it turned out there were several pugs developers near Boston, so it was sort of a running joke.  I don't think we ever actually met.
00:58 avar something with -e, and backend options
00:58 avar having sbcl compile to a binary and so on..
00:59 mncharity stevan_: cool.  though ruby group unfortunately now lands each month in conflict, so my attendance gets split.
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01:00 mncharity avar: I found having an interactive eval loop invaluable for testing.  Makes random exploration/play/testing much easier.
01:01 fglock heh - I read rugby
01:01 mncharity :)
01:01 avar mncharity: yeah, then there's that..
01:02 stevan_ mncharity: I wouldnt mind hitting up a ruby users meeting etiher :)
01:02 mncharity "give blood, play rugby^Wruby"
01:03 mncharity second tuesday of each and every month (for both)
01:05 mncharity re much easier, well, at least for me.  puts it above threshold for "maybe I'll just sit here for a while and try different things and see how they work".  the kp6: bot is great. :)
01:06 fglock perl6: 1+1
01:06 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[2␤]
01:06 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[2␤]
01:06 exp_evalbot ..p6: OUTPUT[sh: ./parrot: No such file or directory␤]
01:06 exp_evalbot ..nqp: OUTPUT[sh: ./parrot: No such file or directory␤]
01:07 mncharity wow. :)
01:07 fglock we have lots of bots
01:07 fglock it's the perl6: bot community
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01:08 mncharity :)  /me wonders if there's a QUOTES file... :)
01:08 * SamB wonders where oleg got his URL from
01:09 avar how do I run the kp6-perl5 backend now?
01:09 fglock avar: I was thinking, how about renaming MiniPerl6 to nqp-perl5 :)
01:09 mncharity avar: is that this one: http://planetsix.perl.org/ ?
01:09 lambdabot Title: Planet Perl Six
01:10 avar Let's rename kp6 to onion:)
01:10 fglock $ echo ' say "hi" ' | perl script/kp6 | perl -I -Ilib-modules-kp6-mp6-p5 -I compiled/perl5/lib
01:11 fglock $ echo ' say "hi" ' | perl script/kp6 | perl  -I compiled/perl5/lib
01:11 avar kp6: my sub x { "bar" } say x()
01:11 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling APPLY on invalid object:$VAR1 = {};␤␤ at lib-kp6-mp6-p5/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 33␤   main::DISPATCH('undef', 'APPLY') called at - line 48␤]
01:11 avar kp6: my sub xyz { "bar" }; say xyz()
01:11 exp_evalbot r18412: OUTPUT[bar␤]
01:12 avar oh stupid parser
01:12 mncharity re onion, layers upon layers?
01:12 avar yup
01:13 avar And I think we need to drop the "Kinda" stigma:)
01:13 mncharity :) ah, good thought.
01:14 avar and the perl logo has been an onion for a while..:)
01:15 mncharity perl6 goulash: add onion, jerked parrot, leg of pug, ...
01:16 avar fglock: what do you think?:)
01:16 fglock i'm ok :)
01:17 fglock how about adopting nqp-xxx for the MiniPerl6 backends?
01:17 fglock let's integrate with Parrot
01:17 avar I think it's better if the parrot people own "nqp" :)
01:17 fglock in some way
01:17 avar aren't they using nqp as an embedding language anyway
01:19 fglock I see the minis as close-to-the-metal, whatever subset works better in that platform
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01:19 fglock MiniPerl6-lisp would be very lispish
01:20 avar sh-3.1$ make kp6_mp6
01:20 avar cp src/KindaPerl6/Visitor/EmitLisp.pm compiled/perl5/lib/KindaPerl6/Visitor/EmitLisp.pm
01:20 avar # /usr/bin/perl script/mp6.pl < src/KindaPerl6/Visitor/EmitLisp.pm | perltidy -pro=util/perltidyrc > compiled/perl5/lib/KindaPerl6/Visit\
01:20 avar or/EmitLisp.pm
01:20 avar hrm, makefile broken
01:20 fglock oops - sorry
01:20 avar fixed it
01:25 pugs_svnbot r18413 | avar++ | [kp6] make `make kp6_mp6' work again, compile not copy
01:25 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18413
01:25 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18413 - Pugs - Trac
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01:31 fglock avar: I think we could add onion as a new directory, for bootstraping work - and keep KindaPerl6 as the bootstrapping compiler
01:31 fglock so we start with onion-kp6 and later onion-onion
01:33 avar aren't we going to move kp6 itself to full-p6?
01:37 arcady joined #perl6
01:39 fglock yes, but moving it over itself is harder; I think keeping a near-frozen version makes it easier
01:39 avar when should we do that? when it bootstraps STD?
01:39 fglock like, how we are using mp6 now
01:40 fglock it could be done right now, we only have minor problems
01:40 fglock we can port fixes back from onion to kp6 if needed
01:46 avar can it be partly done?
01:48 fglock hmm - what you mean?
01:49 avar nm
01:49 avar ugh, I'll have to rewrite aankhen's Code.lisp, it only does package variables
01:53 fglock the idea is to start onion as a separate project, developing it in parallel with kp6; when onion gets usable, then we freeze kp6
01:53 fglock if onion fails, we just move it to misc/ and go on
01:54 fglock I need examples of companies that have an open-source R&D department
01:54 fglock not directly related to the company business
01:57 avar fglock: Isn't onion just coninuing where kp6 is going?
01:58 * mncharity goes by briefly, notices fun concept of a frozen onion.  frosty onion.
01:59 avar fglock: planning major changes with onion incompatable with kp6?
02:01 fglock there are some things that might break kp6 - fixing the parameter passing format, for example
02:02 fglock and experimenting with the regex engine
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02:04 fglock these things require changes in the runtime
02:10 avar but first we want to bootstrap:)
02:10 avar and having std will be neat since we can parse more stuff
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02:27 fglock bootstrapping is easier if you have a compiler that works as a safe net
02:28 fglock my talk is finished - now sleep for 3 hours or so &
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03:07 mncharity re creating a repl, there is also ./misc/old_pugs_perl5_backen​d/pilrun2-leftovers/repl.pl  ./misc/runpugs/lib/Repl.pm  (all p5) and examples/eval.pl (in p6) to draw from.  perhaps also examples/promptr.p6.
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05:13 funktio I think it would be a nice if string.chars returned an array in list context
05:14 funktio would be much more elegant than split "", string
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05:45 spinclad mncharity: putter! yes, here's one nominal member (not paying attention here, clearly, tho i am caught up from a month-long 2 week backlog)
05:46 spinclad and about ready to start playing with kp6
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06:08 moritz_ btw Junction.str is broken
06:08 moritz_ I'm trying to fix it, but it's...weird
06:11 moritz_ no method 'type' in Class 'Int'
06:13 moritz_ ah, the problem is that Junction.str autothreads
06:13 moritz_ but it shouldn't
06:14 moritz_ changing it to return "placeholder" and calling 'say' on (1|2|3) yields "placeholder\nplaceholder\nplaceholder\n"
06:15 moritz_ so the problem is not in class Junction, but somewhere in the dispatcher
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09:08 funktio whoops, I forgot the sigil; I meant $string.chars
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10:13 cathya you guys do haskell?
10:18 integral We do haskell?  Pugs has a copious amount of haskell in it :-)
10:18 cathya interesting
10:19 cathya im just reading the halting problem
10:19 cathya and there's a quote from larry
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10:20 szbalint hey regh :)
10:21 cathya hi
10:21 cathya oh
10:21 cathya hehe
10:21 cathya hi
10:22 cathya here too huh
10:35 cognominal_ joined #perl6
10:38 moritz_ pong
10:43 cathya guess what
10:47 IllvilJa joined #perl6
11:07 moritz_ what
11:38 mikeKnight joined #perl6
11:38 mikeKnight hi,every one
11:46 pmurias joined #perl6
11:59 cathya question OT doesnt linux have a gui that's hardware-accelerated yet?
12:02 cathya besides x
12:06 moritz_ I don't know, perhaps a framebuffer can use 2D acceleration
12:08 pmurias moritz_: doubt it
12:12 pmurias moritz_: x and DirectFB on framebuffer can do hardwar acceleration apartantly
12:13 cathya ah ok
12:15 pmurias cathya: i just goolg'ed after my initial stupid response ;)
12:15 pmurias * googled
12:16 pmurias kp6 Makefile is broken
12:16 pmurias it copied KindaPerl6/Visitor/EmitPerl5Regex.pm instead of compiling it
12:18 Aankhen`` pmurias: Thanks for the macro answer last night. :-)
12:19 Aankhen`` AIUI from the answer, in the case of that particular macro, at least, the processing would mostly be in the regex, since that would return an appropriate AST, yes?
12:21 pmurias it could
12:22 pmurias what i wanted to do was to wrap the result in a quasi-quote
12:22 pmurias so that the regex would return a list and a quasi-quote would turn it into an AST node
12:23 Aankhen`` Ah.
12:29 pmurias i'm not sure if do {my $a:=1;say q:code {say $a;}} returns q:code {say 1};
12:32 avar Aankhen``: Your sub implementation is teh broke:)
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12:44 pugs_svnbot r18414 | pmurias++ | [kp6-perl5rx] token-test.pl works
12:44 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18414
12:44 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18414 - Pugs - Trac
13:25 Aankhen`` avar: What sub implementation?
13:26 Aankhen`` And what's b0rked about it?
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13:30 avar Aankhen``: Code.lisp, it only does packages, should just dispatch to sub objects
13:30 avar hrm
13:30 avar I was trying to implement my $s = sub {}; $s.()
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13:40 Aankhen`` avar: Eh?
13:40 Aankhen`` Code.lisp contains KP6-CODE and MAKE-KP6-SUB.
13:40 Aankhen`` It doesn't have anything to do with packages.
13:41 avar kp6-apply-function needs to look it up in a package
13:41 avar (defmethod kp6-dispatch ((invocant kp6-Code) (method (eql :apply)) &rest parameters)
13:42 avar (defmethod kp6-dispatch ((invocant kp6-Code) (method (eql :apply)) &rest parameter  "Run some code with ::Apply, this is used by my $sub = sub {};
13:42 avar $sub.() for instance"
13:42 avar (let ((interpreter (first parameters))
13:42 avar (arguments (rest parameters)))
13:42 avar (kp6-apply-function interpreter invocant (list (make-instance 'kp6-positional-parameter :value (make-kp6-cell arguments))))))
13:42 avar I was trying to do that
13:42 Aankhen`` Ah, KP6-APPLY-FUNCTION.
13:42 Aankhen`` Wait, you *want* it to look it up in a function, or do you want it to run the code itself?
13:42 Aankhen`` It's supposed to do the latter at present.
13:43 avar run the code
13:43 Aankhen`` And instead of that LET, use this: (destructuring-bind (interpreter &rest arguments) parameters ...)
13:44 avar Aankhen``: http://sial.org/pbot/28011
13:44 lambdabot Title: Paste #28011 from Someone at 208.78.101.240
13:45 Aankhen`` Hmm, I'm not sure why KP6-APPLY-FUNCTION is looking it up in a package.
13:45 Aankhen`` That's just silly.
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13:47 cathya jesus
13:47 cathya knuth is online
13:47 cathya lol
13:48 cmarcelo joined #perl6
13:50 szbalint hm?
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13:53 avar Aankhen``: If you could get methods and $sub.() working that would be super rad:)
13:55 Aankhen`` avar: Give me some time.  I'm a little swamped at the moment. :-S
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14:01 pmurias you can treat ::Apply as a ::Call if it helps
14:02 Aankhen`` I plan to. :-)
14:06 cathya kiddin szbalint
14:06 cathya heh
14:11 * avar wants to kill "this is not implemented"
14:11 pugs_svnbot r18415 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5] fixed a problem with nested gather{...}
14:11 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18415
14:11 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18415 - Pugs - Trac
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14:13 fglock avar: there is an alternative to making yet another compiler, which is to port some stuff back to mp6
14:14 fglock this would make possible to "fix" the kp6 compiler runtime
14:15 avar what stuff?
14:16 fglock the kp6 compiler uses the mp6 runtime internally
14:16 fglock this makes some things very difficult - macros for example
14:17 fglock we could make mp6 compile to kp6 runtime
14:17 avar couldn't this also be fixed by bootstraping kp6 and running it on the kp6 runtime?
14:18 fglock yes, but the bootstrapping itself would be easier to do if this were fixed
14:19 pmurias fglock: fixing of what is nessary?
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14:19 fglock pmurias: replacing the kp6 compiler runtime
14:24 fglock pmurias: this is needed in order for the AST to be a Perl 6 land object; we need this in order to have macros
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14:33 pmurias fglock: it isn't clear to me, do you want the code emitted by kp6 to use the mp6 runtime?
14:33 pmurias i understood
14:34 Aankhen`` I'm glad one of us did. :-D
14:34 dconway joined #perl6
14:34 dconway so this is what irc looks like
14:34 * dconway waves to larry
14:35 Aankhen`` Beautiful, isn't it?
14:35 pmurias although " replacing the kp6 compiler runtime" part confuses me
14:36 pmurias fglock: the plan is to make the mp6 emitted code use the kp6 runtime?
14:36 moritz_ fglock: how do need to modify evalbot's @INC?
14:37 moritz_ fglock: for the new dir layout
14:37 fglock pmurias: yes (a possible plan)
14:38 [particle] hey there dconway! how's things?
14:38 pmurias lib-mp6-p5 changed to compiled/perl5/lib
14:38 pmurias * lib-kp6-mp6-p5
14:38 fglock moritz_: the lib dir is now compiled/perl5/lib/
14:38 pmurias fglock: i think it's a bad plan
14:38 fglock so we can have several compiled lib versions
14:38 pmurias s/plan/idea
14:39 dconway hello moritz_:)
14:39 fglock pmurias: how would you do it?
14:39 fglock dconway: hi :)
14:39 moritz_ hi dconway ;)
14:39 pmurias dconway: hi ;)
14:39 fglock pmurias: hi :)
14:39 * [particle] wonders if dconway is here looking for yet another way to avoid the pod spec ;)
14:40 dconway hi pmurias:)
14:40 fglock [particle]: hi :)
14:40 dconway it'll take me awhile to get used to this thing
14:40 dconway [particle]: not at all
14:41 pugs_svnbot r18416 | moritz++ | [evalbot] fixed include path for evalbot (reflects kp6 dir layout changes)
14:41 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18416
14:41 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18416 - Pugs - Trac
14:41 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
14:41 moritz_ kp6: say "hi"
14:41 exp_evalbot r18416: OUTPUT[hi␤]
14:42 moritz_ fglock: kp6 with new include path at your service ;)
14:42 dconway be back in a bit, need to reboot
14:42 pugs_svnbot r18417 | fglock++ | [kp6] rm old lib
14:42 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18417
14:42 dconway left #perl6
14:42 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18417 - Pugs - Trac
14:42 fglock moritz_: thanks!
14:43 moritz_ you're welcome
14:44 cathya that was the real damian conway?
14:45 [particle] yes
14:45 fglock running out of battery...
14:46 * [particle] hands fglock a solar charger
14:46 cathya what is with the perl community
14:46 cathya all the perl developers started showing up here?
14:46 cathya hehe
14:46 moritz_ cathya: not all I think ;)
14:47 moritz_ was rafael ever here? or nicholas clark?
14:47 fglock moritz_: yes
14:47 rgs I'm yes
14:47 rgs here
14:47 moritz_ rgs: right
14:47 cathya rafael is
14:47 cathya lol
14:47 cathya there
14:47 moritz_ sometimes it's hard to match abbreviations ;)
14:47 rgs nicholas is, sometimes, too
14:47 [particle] rgs: did rc1 happen?
14:47 Aankhen`` <cathya> what is with the perl community # you don't approve of the developers showing up here? :-)
14:48 rgs not yet
14:48 pmurias fglock: i don't think changing mp6 would be worth it
14:48 cathya haha i dont mind at allll
14:48 cathya if it happens  good, it'll make this place bigger than debian
14:48 [particle] rgs: good luck with it. looking good so far, but i know it's a lot of work
14:48 pmurias as developing kp6 is easier and the result isn't temporary
14:48 rgs shouldn't take long
14:49 cathya so this isnt the real rafael?
14:49 fglock pmurias: how about creating the onion thing; and freezing kp6 as the bootstrap compiler?
14:49 pmurias sounds good
14:49 fglock k
14:49 rgs I'm the one and only rafael!!
14:49 [particle] cathya: what's this "real" business. we're all real people, except the bots.
14:49 cathya real as in the perl developer
14:50 pmurias isn't onion as a name taken by the parrot folks?
14:50 fglock perl6: "I'm here"
14:50 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT['I'm here'␤]
14:50 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT["I\'m here"␤]
14:50 exp_evalbot ..p6: OUTPUT[sh: ./parrot: No such file or directory␤]
14:50 exp_evalbot ..nqp: OUTPUT[sh: ./parrot: No such file or directory␤]
14:50 Tene [particle]: Hey, I'm plenty real!
14:50 [particle] what's up with nqp and p6?
14:51 Aankhen`` Whoo.
14:51 fglock no parrot there
14:51 Aankhen`` Tene: Liar.
14:51 [particle] yeah, where is there, and how does it get fixed?
14:51 [particle] by the way, we're ~14 failing tests away from merging the new oo model into parrot trunk
14:52 fglock [particle]: please help moritz_ :)
14:52 fglock [particle]: cool
14:52 [particle] fglock: gladly! what's wrong, moritz_?
14:52 * Tene segfaults on Aankhen``.
14:52 Aankhen`` Ewww.
14:52 * [particle] reboots Tene
14:52 pmurias fglock: won't changing the kp6 be nessesary for getting onion to compile
14:53 fglock bye bye in 2 minutes
14:54 fglock pmurias: maybe, but it's less complex than fixing it and making it compile itself at the same time
14:54 fglock it's very easy to break the bootstrap
14:55 * [particle] thinks kp6 needs a version number, a published roadmap, and proper cpan-ification
14:55 pmurias fglock: a stable version could be kept, updated only when the HEAD is proved to work
14:56 [particle] it'd be nice to have a repo that allowed branches, wouldn't it :)
14:57 Aankhen`` Needs moar Mercurial.
14:58 pmurias [particle]: you can branch a single directory in subversion
15:00 pmurias the pugs repository is so diversified that branching the whole thing dosn't make sense
15:01 Tene <3 git
15:02 vbattsAtWork joined #perl6
15:03 Aankhen`` Git it off me!
15:11 cognominal_ joined #perl6
15:14 [particle] pmurias: perhaps it's time to set up v6/branches then
15:21 fglock joined #perl6
15:22 fglock b
15:24 pasteling "fglock" at 87.103.27.203 pasted "error in irc.pugscode.org" (4 lines, 367B) at http://sial.org/pbot/28014
15:27 fglock how about making 3 separate Makefiles: Makefile.PL for the CPAN distro, doesn't attempt to recompile; Makefile-mp6.PL for current development; Makefile-kp6.PL for bootstrapping
15:30 [particle] you could have Makefile.PL take options, and generate the appropriate Makefile
15:30 [particle] or perhaps different targets within the Makefile?
15:30 [particle] s/the/one/
15:31 fglock we current have different targets, but the Makefile gets hard to maintain
15:32 moritz_ looking...
15:33 [particle] you think three makefiles will be easier to maintain?
15:33 [particle] (it may be, iunno.)
15:33 pnu joined #perl6
15:34 fglock good point - not sure
15:34 [particle] parrot has a Makefile.PL that calls Configure.pl to keep cpan happy
15:35 [particle] and Configure.pl takes many options which affect makefile generation
15:35 barney joined #perl6
15:35 [particle] it even includes a 'make Makefile' target, which allows us to modify the makefile templates and regenerate without reconfiguring
15:36 moritz_ while compiling parrot:
15:36 [particle] however, kp6 doesn't really need configuring in the first place, just makefile generation
15:36 moritz_ compilers/imcc/imcparser.c:1: error: expected identifier or '(' before '<<' token
15:36 moritz_ make: *** [compilers/imcc/imcparser.o] Error 1
15:36 moritz_ [particle]: any ideas?
15:36 [particle] moritz_: sure!
15:36 [particle] it's likely a merge conflict
15:37 [particle] anytime you see compiler errors with << or >>
15:37 rindolf joined #perl6
15:37 [particle] try svn revert
15:37 moritz_ ok, thanks
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15:56 fglock looking for the next interesting problem™
15:57 [particle] loop { do_something_useful( find_something_interesting() ); };
16:01 fglock can we have loop as a statement modifier?
16:01 fglock $x++ loop;
16:02 TimToady no
16:03 TimToady at least, not in Standard Perl
16:03 xinming joined #perl6
16:04 [particle] $x++ for loop; # self-documenting :)
16:05 [particle] would $x++ for *; work?
16:05 TimToady $x++ for ^*
16:05 [particle] ah, right
16:06 [particle] i see a macro somewhere that converts a 'loop' statement modifier to ^* :)
16:06 TimToady 'course, that could also be construed as the metaobject for Whatever.
16:07 TimToady so maybe the metaobject just happens to return an infinite list in list context.  :)
16:08 TimToady more likely we just force ^* and ^Whatever to mean different things
16:08 [particle] sometimes you just can't resist a good hack
16:08 TimToady Whatever is the concept, while * is the use of the concept
16:09 TimToady basically, the ^ shortcut for .HOW only works on bare identifiers
16:09 pmurias fglock: not keeping kp6 and mp6 runtimes in the same directory might be a good idea
16:09 TimToady and then only if they're already declared as classes
16:10 pmurias they are currently kept together in Runtime/Perl5
16:10 TimToady otherwise ^ just has an MMD candidate on Whatever that handles it
16:10 amnesiac metaobjects!
16:11 TimToady what about 'em?
16:11 TimToady and then, what about that?
16:11 amnesiac just checking the conversation, and thinking how that could be constructed as the metaobject for Whatever
16:14 TimToady well, when you say MyType, it's returning the protoobject (a variant of undef), and * is actually just the Whatever protoobject
16:15 TimToady so if there were not a specific prefix:<^> (Whatever) rule, it would default to what ^ does on normal protoobjects
16:15 TimToady which is to return the metaobject, Mytype.HOW
16:17 amnesiac I see
16:18 TimToady likewise ^42 and ^"zzz" dispatch to different candidates depending on the type being Num or Str
16:18 amnesiac so the metaobject just defines the abstract representation of ANY class? (or any object)
16:19 amnesiac like how to dispatch HOW and WHAT?
16:19 TimToady no, those are built-in macros
16:19 TimToady .HOW tells you how to do all the rest of the OO stuff
16:19 TimToady so .HOW can't specify how to call .HOW
16:20 amnesiac .HOW tells you how to do all the rest of the OO stuff ---> but for a given type, or any type?
16:21 TimToady every object carries a .HOW, which may or may not be unique, depending on whether you're doing prototype or class-based programming
16:21 TimToady default is class-based
16:21 TimToady but .HOW doesn't care
16:22 amnesiac I see
16:22 TimToady in terms of MO it only has to hand a responder interface
16:22 TimToady back
16:23 TimToady and the object doesn't care where the responder interface's methods happen to come from
16:23 fglock hmm - the problem with implementing STM in perl 5 is possibly related to finding side effects of BEGIN blocks
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16:43 avar 14:55:20  * [particle] thinks kp6 needs a version number, a published roadmap, and proper cpan-ification
16:43 avar [particle]: I put it on cpan, granted it could be a lot better..
16:43 [particle] yep, good start :)
16:44 avar what more does it need?
16:44 [particle] portability
16:44 avar Wanna hack it?:)
16:45 fglock we have a roadmap
16:45 fglock v6/docs/kp6-roadmap.pod
16:46 [particle] you should put the roadmap in the cpan distro
16:46 * avar TODO: move docs/ to KindaPerl6::Doc
16:46 [particle] yeah
16:46 fglock avar: please do!
16:46 [particle] i can try to hack it
16:46 avar I've been doing so, slooowly:)
16:46 avar [particle]: please do:)
16:46 fglock [particle]: does Coro.pm works in windows?
16:46 [particle] where's Coro.pm, i can try?
16:47 fglock it's used in the current gather/take impl
16:47 fglock Coro from CPAN
16:47 [particle] okay, just updated v6 from the repo
16:47 [particle] fglock: check the build reports there
16:47 fglock you don't need v6
16:47 justatheory joined #perl6
16:47 fglock looking
16:48 avar [particle]: If you want to make it portable to windows just have it not write all the makefile stuff out if $^O eq 'Win32', it won't support building (development) but install will work
16:48 Aankhen`` avar: I'm going to give KP6-DISPATCH a required INTERPRETER parameter.
16:48 avar oh, and I think `make install' might be broken in general
16:48 fglock pass 2, fail 13
16:48 fglock but it's a cool module
16:48 Aankhen`` avar: I trust that won't break anything?
16:48 Aankhen`` (Obviously, I'll update all calls and so on.)
16:49 [particle] Coro has a lot of platform failures, just within linux
16:50 avar Aankhen``: Why does the lisp implementation need interpreter anyway?
16:50 avar Aankhen``: Won't break anything if you add it everywhere
16:50 Aankhen`` avar: Futureproofing.
16:50 avar threads?
16:50 Aankhen`` Aye.
16:50 Aankhen`` An interpreter is a self-contained P6 world.
16:51 fglock it's possible to emulate what Coro does, but it takes a lot of work
16:52 fglock brb
16:53 Aankhen`` avar: I'm curious.  Why convert everything to use KP6-DISPATCH?
17:05 avar Aankhen``: To match the p5 backend, and it makes the MOP stuff easier
17:06 avar Aankhen``: And to write the internals at the same level "user space" code is written in
17:07 Aankhen`` I still don't understand how it makes the MOP stuff easier, or how we're writing at the same level "user space" code is written at.
17:08 Aankhen`` Are you planning to evaluate DEFMETHOD forms at runtime to define new user methods?
17:17 GeJ_ joined #perl6
17:20 avar Aankhen``: Everything in p6 works on an object model where you ask the object for its string form, int form, whatever
17:20 pugs_svnbot r18418 | Aankhen++ | [kp6-lisp]
17:20 pugs_svnbot r18418 | Aankhen++ | * added INTERPRETER parameter to KP6-DISPATCH lambda list.
17:20 pugs_svnbot r18418 | Aankhen++ | * added INTERPRETER parameter to KP6-FOR-LOOP-STRUCTURE; also changed lambda list to group non-body forms within a list.
17:20 pugs_svnbot r18418 | Aankhen++ | * regenerated EmitLisp.pm
17:20 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18418
17:20 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18418 - Pugs - Trac
17:20 avar Aankhen``: Doing that via one dispatch protocol just seems easier
17:20 avar Aankhen``: same level = all the stuff returns p6 objects under MOP, and we explicitly ask the class for the CL version now
17:20 avar as opposed to kp6-true returning t or nil
17:21 avar so a p6 class with method true {} doesn't need any special handling on ::If or other stuff like that
17:22 Aankhen`` How do we handle multiple invocants?
17:23 Aankhen`` Hmm, wait, I don't think that's around any more
17:23 Aankhen`` .
17:23 Aankhen`` kp6: (1, 2, 3, 4).map: -> $a { $a + 1 }
17:23 exp_evalbot r18418: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 0, line 1 column 0:␤(1, 2, 3, 4).map: -> $a { $a + 1 ␤^ HERE␤]
17:23 Aankhen`` Dang, can't remember the syntax.
17:24 Aankhen`` kp6: [1, 2, 3, 4].map: -> $a { $a + 1 }
17:24 exp_evalbot r18418: OUTPUT[[ 2, 3, 4, 5 ]␤]
17:24 Aankhen`` Goodie.
17:26 avar Aankhen``: i was trying to get @a.map(sub { $_ ~ "meh" }) working earlier:)
17:26 avar that's (kp6-dispatch array :map ..)
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17:38 pasteling "Aankhen" at 122.162.197.94 pasted "return (::Call.new(invocant =>" (3 lines, 177B) at http://sial.org/pbot/28019
17:38 Aankhen`` How do I fix that code so that KP6 accepts it?
17:38 Aankhen`` At present I get a syntax error near ::Call.
17:38 Aankhen`` Oh, I guess I mean MP6.  This is for the emitter.
17:39 avar try breaking it down into smaller parts
17:39 avar and add more parens
17:39 Aankhen`` Do the individual parts look okay to you, though?
17:40 avar ::Call() not ::Call.new() ?
17:40 avar but otherwise yes
17:40 fglock avar: yes
17:40 fglock it's an mp6ism
17:40 avar tell Aankhen`` :)
17:40 * fglock thinks about fixing
17:42 pasteling "Aankhen" at 122.162.197.94 pasted "my $call = ::Call(invocant =>" (4 lines, 196B) at http://sial.org/pbot/28021
17:42 Aankhen`` That still gives me an error.
17:43 avar try :=
17:43 Aankhen`` Err.
17:43 Aankhen`` Hmm.
17:44 Aankhen`` It keeps complaining about this: Call.
17:44 Aankhen`` But that doesn't exist in the file.
17:44 Aankhen`` (The "." is part of what it complains about.)
17:48 fglock Aankhen``: must use := instead of =
17:48 Aankhen`` I'm using that.
17:48 Aankhen`` Still no go.
17:48 justatheory joined #perl6
17:50 avar paste the patch
17:55 Aankhen`` You asked for it. :-)
17:56 pasteling "Aankhen" at 122.162.197.94 pasted "Index: src/KindaPerl6/Visitor/" (202 lines, 9.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/28022
17:56 Aankhen`` Note that the KP6-CALL-FUNCTION is still not okay.
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18:05 fglock fixed - committing
18:08 moritz_ nqp: say("Hello");
18:08 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Hello␤]
18:08 pugs_svnbot r18419 | fglock++ | [mp6] implemented .new()
18:08 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18419
18:08 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18419 - Pugs - Trac
18:08 moritz_ ok, parrot compiled fine
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22:01 pmurias meant \/exit
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